I’m going to go with what @catch-yourself said. The schools aren’t the issue, the issue is where people pretend that COVID is over. Also in my community (which may be the same one) schools are open, but very carefully with mask wearing and minimizing class mixing. The virus is spreading a little bit through the schools, but not in a worse way than anywhere else. The major upticks still seem to be from the people who have no problem dancing indoors at chasunas with 800 other people, none of them with masks or social distancing.

Everyone is all worked up because the current social climate thrives on getting people worked up. Specifically, promoting that you believe in an ideology and getting people worked up to fight those who oppose it is the best way to drum up support for yourself.

Most of the media doesn’t like Republicans, and they found that Democrats can get worked up really quickly if you find them an enemy so they promoted Trump as The Sutun incarnate.

The Republicans in turn got their constitutes worked up by pretending that Trump is what everyone wanted all along and everyone is a victim because of that.

Trump lost the election and was plummeting towards irrelevancy, so he worked up his supporters into following a farce.

The Democrats realized that they can get their constitutes worked up more if they gang up to fight a lame duck than they would if they did something useful, like fix the mess that is the COVID vaccine.

And here we are. Who knows where we’ll be next week?

I think there’s something like 17 versions of “Pandemic” out there. It’s a very popular game. I never played it, but I’ve played “Forbidden Island” by the same author which is a similar game. It’s co-operative, everyone works together to stop global pandemics by traveling around the world, building hospitals, and researching vaccines.

The latest versions to come out are a series called “Pandemic: Legacy” which are a fascinating new idea in board games (and great way to get peoples money). Every time you play the game, the rules change permanently. There are cards that are added or removed, stickers put into the instruction manual, and little boxes with new pieces to add. And the rules are different depending on how each game turns out. After ten games the rules stop changing and you end up with a unique board game that no one else has. Then they came out with three sequels to “Pandemic: Legacy” that tell an ongoing story about the pandemic so every year you have to buy the next game.

I love cooking too, but I have a bad habit of experimenting and making a mess of things so I’m banned from the kitchen for anything other than garlic bread and veggie omelettes, both of which I’m great at.

Board games! I forgot about board games! I am a board game addict and it’s getting passed on to the next generation. Good thing they are big and expensive so we don’t buy too often.

Libby Lazewick is probably one of my favorite frum fiction authors, maybe because she writes what she knows and (usually) doesn’t try to mimic goyishe technothrillers and mysteries.

The Yeshiva I was in at one point had a name as a potching Yeshiva. Almost all the Rebbeim potched. I can tell you, there were two occasions where the kid definitely deserved it, but the Rebbi went overboard. Eight grade the Rebbe would give a little love tap that wasn’t meant to hurt as he felt we were too mature for potches. Most occasions were completely unwarranted. One Rebbi in particular was just awful. We had him for the last hour of the day and he was trying to quit smoking at the time. Constantly irritable and grumpy. About 30 minutes of the hour was given over to punishments. Every day would start off with one kid reading off the list of assignments that were due that day. “Chaim Yankle, ‘I will not talk in class’ 100 times. Shmuel Baruch, Mishna aleph through gimmel with translation…” Those kids would either hand in their assignments or be lined up at the front of the class to be yelled at. Repeat offenders were slapped. Every day there was probably between one to four potches given out. I’ve heard from people who were his talmidim later that he improved and was actually a good Rebbi, but I have a hard time getting over him even decades later.

False dichotomy. If the only way to control an unruly but mentally stable child is through medications or spanking, the teacher is doing something very very wrong.

ADHD overmedication was more a thing of the past anyway. It doesn’t occur nearly as much and requires much more thorough methods and documentation before it can be shown that the kid’s problem is a chemical imbalance requiring drugs.

Anything by D’veykus or Abie Rotenberg in general.

I had another longer reply that addressed a lot of what we’re discussing, but some of these replies came in before it was mod approved. It may never be mod approved, so I’ll try to rewrite it if I don’t see it later.

@daas-yochid Why did you nearly call Hatzalah on an individual wearing a mask? Please explain that situation so we can move past it.

I have, on multiple occasions, addressed the difficulty the uncomfortableness of wearing masks. I have also explained, on multiple occasions, why it’s still important to move past those difficulties, and how it is actually possible.

@syag-lchochma If you speak with respect you will be spoken to with respect. If continue you refuse to acknowledge that @daas-yochid claims they once saw someone almost in need of Hatzalah because of a mask, there is no purpose in treating your words with respect.

@torahvaluesoverparty I don’t think lock downs work as well as they are supposed to. I think a big issue preventing lockdowns from stopping the virus is people who outright ignore it. They do work to slow the spread, though. That’s been proven. But they can only work if people are careful afterwards too.

@daas-yochid You said that you saw a person choking nearly to death because of a mask. So yes, you did say that wearing a mask is physically impossible and dangerous for many people. I am not “demanding huge life changes”. I’m asking that people wear masks. That’s literally all I’ve been saying this entire thread.

@madealiyah Please explain to me how wearing a mask while going to shul, the supermarket, school, or when talking with a friend is such a major hindrance on your life.

I had to Google “מקור חכמה נחל” because I had literally no idea what this post was about.

I think the Israeli government acted responsibly. Going to Uman isn’t being עולה רגל (l’havdil). It’s a nice thing based on the popular Chassidishe minhag of davening by the Rebbe on ימים נוראים. In the midst of a massive pandemic, I don’t think anyone can deny that travel was best left restricted. As we saw, even opening shuls was difficult and many people had to daven outside (or not with a minyan at all!) and even so there was a spike in COVID-19 cases.

About a year ago the biggest thread on CW was a couple of members arguing that vaccines are too dangerous and people shouldn’t take them. They had literally nothing to back their arguments up with. So I am not surprised that the same people are still alive and well during the current pandemic and also not surprised that their enablers are still around. People saying things like “Well, there are two sides to the issue…” or “I understand the concern even if personally….” are in my experience just vaccine deniers trying to look more legitimate.

@daas-yochid You claimed that wearing a mask is physically impossible for some people and even dangerous for many. The point of Rabbi Shafran’s article is that it may be difficult for some people, but it’s something almost anyone can get used to and very important that everyone tries. You can’t just not comment on that and pick-and-choose the sentence you liked.

@avram-in-md Good to see we’re finally on a similar page. My point of view hasn’t changed though. It frustrates and angers me to see so many people waltzing around indoors in public places with no mask and places where nobody says anything about that. You can’t expect me to have empathy for someone who refuses to wear a mask for even 15 minutes of mincha.

The relief bill is such a farce. After Democrats and Republicans spend months bickering over the bill, they finally agree that every family can have three weeks worth of groceries on the governments dime. And since everyone finally decided to agree on the bill, lawmakers and lobbyists used the opportunity to stuff it with tarfus. The bill is five thousand pages long and Congress was given a full two hours to read the text before they had to vote on it.

@avram-in-md What about wearing a mask for 15 minutes to an hour at a time and taking it off for breaks in secluded corners when there are no people around? In my shul on Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanna I saw the majority of people going several hours straight wearing masks with no visible issues. There were some people who felt too uncomfortable, so they would walk outside for a few minutes. There are very reasonable ways to wear masks, even for people who have difficulties. Which is why the whole “debate” baffles and angers me, I really can’t understand why there are still so many people ignoring COVID-19 restrictions.

@daas-yochid You ignored the crux of the article where he says that wearing a mask is a matter of comfort and it’s something that people can get used to, no matter how difficult it is.

@syag-lchochma It wasn’t a made up story. If there were private messages on CR I can tell you the Yeshiva where it happened at. Everyone tangentially connected to the place knows what happens and are somewhat embarrassed to speak about it. A different, similar, story happened at the same time in a different place close by.

The scary truth is that COVID-19 may only have a 1 in 10,000 kill rate, but it’s extremely contagious. And there are tons of documented cases where a single person was the vector for infecting hundreds within a very short time. Not to say that this will always happen, but given the “right” circumstances a superspreader event is something very possible. The exponential infection rate of COVID-19 is insane, far worse than pretty much any other common virus out there.

On the other hand, the story about a guy choking on his face mask to the point where Hatzalah was almost called, flies in the face of not only every bit of science and evidence out there but also basic logic.

Look, I started off in a respectable manner. Continuing from the original question of asking people why they are opposed to masks. I think the only thing that may have been controversial was when I said that many people are being ga’avadik by not wearing masks, since a lot of the claims are about “me” getting sick while ignoring the stuff about “you” getting sick.

But everything I said you would jump on and claim that I’m “bullying”. And when I would respond to people who made outlandish claims about the dangers in face masks, I would get frustrated and upset which only caused you to ignore everything else I’ve said and double down on your bully remarks.

@avram-in-md I don’t think you’ll find an honest person who will say that the government’s response to the pandemic was appropriate and proportional. I mean, we aren’t locking ourselves in the basement, not washing our groceries in bleach anymore (at least I hope not!) like what was proposed back in March. But I wonder if you asked your doctor if you should wear a face not when going among other people what she/he would say.

Let’s take a step back. Do you personally think that masks are dangerous to wear or not? Do you think that most people who don’t wear masks do so because they are physically incapable of wearing one or because they are uncomfortable?

May I re-iterate my suggestion to read Rabbi Shafran’s article before going veiter? He basically says the same things that I said in the same tone that got me accusations of being “disrespectful” or “hateful”.

May I suggest before continuing we all read Rabbi Avi Shafran’s latest article entitled “Mask Ask”?

Rav Moshe Heineman SHLITA has spoken and written extensively on the topic. If you go to the Star-K website and search for “shaver” there’s numerous articles that list criteria you need to look out for along with brands of shavers you can use.

@avram-in-md I’m referring to an old comment that @daas-yochid made in which he fabricated a story about Hatzalah (you know, the organization that has been begging people to wear masks and socially distant since last Purim?) running around saving people who were dying because they wore face masks.

I don’t know what studies you’ve read, but there’s literally no evidence that wearing a mask for even extended periods of time will reduce oxygen levels or increase CO2 levels. Fakert, there are multiple studies that show zero physical adverse side effects from wearing a face mask, even for people with respiratory issues. Which is why I’m extremely skeptical of anyone who talks about large swaths of people that cannot wear masks. Who are these people? What sort of masks are they wearing that have material so thick it can actually inhibit airflow? If it is so common, why aren’t we seeing schoolchildren dropping like flies when they sit in a classroom wearing a mask for 1 to 2 hours at a time?

Sure there are those who have psychological issues, like panic attacks when wearing a mask, or people who have abnormally large or small facial features that make masks extremely uncomfortable. But impossible? No. Dangerous? Absolutely not.

Please, before you talk about the dangers of wearing a mask, call up your doctor. Not some doctor you heard of on the Internet, but the physician you’ve trusted with your health since before COVID. And ask them if it’s better to wear or not to wear a mask. If they say not to, then we can continue this conversation. Otherwise, I think we’re done here.

@syag-lchochma I thought we were being civil, what happened to you?

There is no way to fully mitigate mental health and economic issues until the pandemic is over. The best we can do is try to protect as many people as possible which involves some sacrifice. If we tell people to act as if everything is normal, we’ll Chas v’Shalom have a repeat of Purim 2020. If we tell people to go into lockdown until everyone is vaccinated, it will be just as bad.

So we compromise. You can go out, but please wear a mask. If it’s between locking up 100 people who can’t wear a mask or locking up 1000 elderly people because it’s dangerous for them to walk around when there’s unmasked people spreading COVID, I don’t think there’s much of an ethical dilemma as to who’s mental health we should be more concerned about.

@avram-in-md We have to measure what the bigger danger is: wearing a mask or not wearing one. The people who physically or psychologically are unable to wear masks are very few, perhaps one out of 1000. The majority of those who claim they can’t wear masks, simply haven’t found one that they feel comfortable in and don’t see a pressing need to wear one. So it’s a question of forcing that tiny minority of people who can’t wear masks to be stuck inside until the pandemic is over, or forcing elderly, immune compromised, and other sick people inside until the pandemic is over. Unfortunately, we have to inconvenience the minority (people who can’t wear a mask) so that the majority (elderly etc.) won’t be inconvenienced.

And no. Scientists have yet to find a situation where a fabric face mask has restricted someone’s oxygen. It’s literally never happened. CO2 and O2 can pass through the fabric of an N95 mask no problem.

@crackers

It is wierd but in my community no one wears masks.

goes hand in hand with

none of us has had covid in weeks, yes their was a spike Tisha bav and succos

If no one wears masks, there will be massive spikes followed by a lot of quiet. That’s literally what you’re describing. I believe you don’t know of anyone who was niftar, but I have a difficult time believing that no one in your community got seriously ill from COVID.

i don’t see where a piece of cloth that is so thin will save you from this wily disease.

Truth is, it won’t. What the masks do is prevent a sick person from getting another person sick! Diseases like COVID travel in droplets of saliva and that’s where most people catch it from. If you wear a mask, your saliva gets trapped and you won’t get someone sick. And it’s not good enough to say “But I feel fine!”, because we’ve seen that people can have the virus, feel fine, and still infect other people. Masks are not 100% effective, but it’s effective enough that there’s no reason not to wear one.

@Mottel Absolutely. Yeshivos and Minyanim are essential to continue our teffilos and avodah to Hashem Yisborach. Unfortunately, we are in the midst of a pandemic and we have to follow the advice of Chazal and our Rabbonim to try and mitigate the suffering. So please keep on wearing masks so we can keep the minyanim and Yeshivos open so people won’t Chas V’Shalom get sick just from davening like we had last Purim!

Why are poor women who’s fathers are not Roshei Yeshiva considered second class in shidduchim? Why do we say to focus on middos while attaching glamor shots to resumes? Why is it OK to violate HIPAA laws when investigating possible health concerns? There are a thousand and one questions you can ask about the shidduch system. At the end of the day, it’s a broken and unfair game that we are all forced to play, dancing to the beat of the game masters, the shadchanim and mothers.

@huju What if your doctor told you to take the vaccine because it will protect others but not yourself? Would you still take it?

Rav Shimon Schwab’s son Reb Yosef used to have a dog named Twinkles. His grandchildren would laugh about how when he would visit them, he would sometimes be more excited about petting the dog than seeing his kids.