@always_ask_questions I used tzniyus as a moshol in a previous comment. For a women to properly keep tzniyus during a hot summer day, it’s extremely difficult but still very important. No Rav or Rebbetzin would say that the halachos could be ignored if it’s too hot out. So the same with masks. Uncomfortable, but important.

@madealiyah I thought I addressed most of these, but let me be a little clearer.

• Masks should be mandatory forever as they prevent the flu and other viruses. No because COVID is 100 times worse than the flu
• At what point does the danger override your rights, and why then? I don’t know. But we are very very far from that point as the danger is currently extremely acute and the so-called “rights” (a secular invention with no parallel in the Torah) being violated are on a very small scale.
• It is a matter of opinion that masks are disruptive to lives It’s a matter of fact that they aren’t. A major portion of this thread has been me asking what sort of disruptions are caused by masks. So far all of the examples have either been one in ten-thousand cases (i.e. people with serious breathing or anxiety problems) or pale in comparison to the dangers of COVID (i.e. having to work harder to make yourself understood or recognized, or cleaning your glasses frequently).
• Flu is forever or not I will discuss this with you when daily COVID deaths begin to approach daily flu deaths and stay that way. Until that time, there is no comparison between the two illnesses.
• Drunk-driving is an active offence. Not masking is passive and is part of living a normal life. Normal lives can be lived even when wearing a mask. That isn’t a matter of opinion, it’s a simple fact proven by millions on a daily basis. Not wearing a mask is dangerous like drunk driving is dangerous. The point of the moshol was that it’s not a “right” to drive drunk, even if being sober is difficult, because it puts others in danger
• Pro-death I started saying that on this thread to provoke a reaction and it seems to have worked. Have we not lost enough friends and family to COVID? Shouldn’t we be doing what’s possible to mitigate that? You seem to disagree. You are saying that there are things that you find uncomfortable, so you won’t do them even if it means that it can cause a massive difference in this horrific mageifa.

First off, Dr. Seuss isn’t cancelled. His publisher and family simply decided to take six of his older books off the shelves because they contain depictions of people as racial stereotypes. For comparison, if a popular children’s book from the 1930s talked about a visitor from Jerusalem and showed a hooked nosed bearded hunchback counting money, we would all be screaming for the book to be pulled from the shelves.

@daas-yochid Let’s get real over here. You called Dr. Fauci a liar for retracting his statement about masks and admitting he made a mistake. Then you went ahead and did the same to me. So your definition of truth and lies is already built on some really problematic grounds.

“You lied about masks not impeding communication ”

“Let’s get this straight: Wearing a mask is not a big deal. It doesn’t restrict oxygen, nor increase CO2 levels. It doesn’t make it hard for people to hear you, ”

There’s a difference between “impeding communication” and “hard for people to hear you”. Wearing a mask makes it harder to communicate but not really harder for people to hear you.

The problem with our conversation, is that you keep insisting on derailing any discussion we’re about to have by nitpicking. And we’ve been going for so long, your list of nitpicks has grown to the point where you refuse to engage until every one of them is addressed.

I’ve addressed your false accusations of me being a liar and I’ve addressed your nitpicks. Now, your turn. Please address my points. Namely this one:

Masks work, everyone should wear them when around other people. The negative effects of mask wearing pale in comparison to the advantages they bring in protected people from COVID-19

Let’s go back in time a little. I’m going to repost my early comments on mask wearing that haven’t been addressed properly. I want to know what you all have to say:

“Since we don’t know for sure who has COVID and who doesn’t, everyone should wear masks as a measure of Bein Adam LaChaveiro to make sure we don’t C”V accidentally make our friends ill… I wear a mask because I care about you and don’t want to make you sick. Please wear a mask so that I don’t get sick either.”

” A mask is a silly, stupid, little item of clothing. It’s not difficult to wear, it doesn’t cause any sort of damage (yes, there is some psychological problems associated with mask wearing, but they are far outweighed by the benefits), they are cheap, and easy to find. So (EDIT: excluding the one in a thousand with health problems preventing them from wearing a mask) anyone who refuses to do this one silly little thing that can probably save lives is clearly either uncaring, or brainwashed by a community that is.”

“There is no way to fully mitigate mental health and economic issues until the pandemic is over. The best we can do is try to protect as many people as possible which involves some sacrifice. If we tell people to act as if everything is normal, we’ll Chas v’Shalom have a repeat of Purim 2020. If we tell people to go into lockdown until everyone is vaccinated, it will be just as bad.

So we compromise. You can go out, but please wear a mask. If it’s between locking up 100 people who can’t wear a mask or locking up 1000 elderly people because it’s dangerous for them to walk around when there’s unmasked people spreading COVID, I don’t think there’s much of an ethical dilemma as to who’s mental health we should be more concerned about.”

“I do not respect other’s “right” to not wear a mask anymore than I respect other’s “right” to drive drunk. It’s a danger to others to pretend that a pandemic doesn’t exist.”

@daas-yochid

• I didn’t fully recall the comment about the alleged incident and the way I said it wasn’t much different than how you described it. My point still stands that even if your incident happened as you described it, it must be an extreme case that proves nothing. For if masks were dangerous, Hatzalah would have their hands full.
• I never said masks were comfortable. I said they are not difficult to wear. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/anti-face-mask-ywncr#post-1924102 If I were like you, I would stop the conversation and scream LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE. But I am not you, so we shall move on. My point still stands that an individual’s lack of comfort isn’t a reason not to wear a mask.
• I don’t believe I said that. I think I said something about no negative effects wearing masks and you and the others jumped on the communication thing and I conceded that that is true. My point still stands that the small difficulties in communication (or larger ones in certain cases) aren’t enough of a reason to not wear masks.
• Correction: I was mistaken about the government health agency’s mistakes regarding masks. There was one tweet by the Surgeon General that was well known at the time, but there were other interviews and announcements that people dug up afterwards, like Dr. Fauci’s USA Today interview. My point still stands that the governments of the world near-unanimously agreed that they were mistaken and masks are important.
• You are welcome to be offended by my extremism. The other day a relative sent me a WhatsApp video of his unvaccinated un-immune family dancing at a chasuna with many other people and zero protections. Those things are happening on a regular basis and should offend you far more than my extreme language in calling them out.

Now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, can you please for once address my main point: Masks work, everyone should wear them when around other people. The negative effects of mask wearing pale in comparison to the advantages they bring in protected people from COVID-19 You and @syag-lchochma have yet to even begin commenting on that.

@daas-yochid What truths did I deviate from that undermined my argument?

@torahvaluesoverparty There were multiple studies on the effectiveness of HCQ. I believe when you say that there were no “golden standard studies performed correctly” is that there were no studies where HCQ and Zinc were given to pre-symptomatic patients. But there were studies on pre-symptomatic patients, and there were studies with Zinc.

That is not a golden standard, that is goalpost movement. If the preliminary studies showed no effect or only a small effect, there’s no reason to believe that changing some of the parameters should suddenly have a drastic change in the results. So far the only “evidence” that HCQ+Zinc is some fantastic miracle cure that could have prevented millions of deaths is a doctor’s open letter to Trump posted to YouTube. No data, no numbers, no studies, and no reason to pursue it further.

@torahvaluesoverparty No scientific study shows a 80-90% reduction in deaths after taking HCQ. That’s narischkeit. There are questionable anecdotes where some doctors claimed to have seen those numbers, but they aren’t backed by hard data. The accusation that there’s some sort of grand conspiracy preventing doctors from talking about a potential cure for COVID-19 is utterly insane.

You’re right. It’s not a miracle cure. It’s not even a cure. It’s merely one of many treatments doctors have been trying to use to stop COVID-19 over the last year.

Wearing masks save lives. You and the others are trying to frame it as a personal choice that people shouldn’t be shamed for. That is like saying driving drunk is a personal choice that people should not be shamed for.

And you continue to harp on my little distortions (most of which are stupidities, like saying I was lying because I said “called Hatzalah” when the original comment said “Almost called Hatzalah”) while ignoring the facts that your pro-death “opinions” are endangering people.

@syag-lchochma Nu? Lies? You are talking about a global pandemic and minimizing the one thing that we could do to help save people with minimal effects on our own lives and you call me the liar? How many doctors have told you not to wear a mask? How many Rabbonim?

@torahvaluesoverparty Let’s get one thing out of the way first.

HCQ+Zinc is not an alternative to vaccines. Even by the most optimistic reports, it’s far less effective and more prone to side effects than the vaccines. Despite what you may hear on WhatsApp, it’s not some miracle drug that evil politicians are trying to hide so that we’ll all die.

You have to read the entire article. The pertinent passage is this one:

“The study also found those treated with azithromycin alone or a combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin also fared slightly better than those not treated with the drugs, according to the Henry Ford data. The analysis found 22.4% of those treated only with azithromycin died, and 20.1% treated with a combination of azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine died, compared to 26.4% of patients dying who were not treated with either medication. ”

There’s a difference of 6.5% in deaths for patients treated with HCQ+Zinc or nothing at all. That directly contradicts your original statements that HCQ+Zinc is the effective medication. The Henry Ford Health System concluded that only HCQ alone in hospitalized patients is effective. Which is a questionable result since even by your own admission multiple other studies have shown that HCQ alone for symptomatic patients is only minimally effective.

@torahvaluesoverparty You keep coming back to the same song and dance. You don’t trust expert opinion or the scientific process. So in your own mind HCQ+Zinc works and literally nothing can refute that because we are playing by rules of logic that you invented.

Let’s take one response that I keep pushing and am still waiting on you to comment. The Henry Ford Health System in Detroit promoted the use of HCQ+Zinc to treat COVID-19. They gave it to pre-symptomatic patients and patients who were already experiencing symptoms. They published papers on the results and collaborated on other HCQ studies. The results show that 5% less people were hospitalized when they took HCQ+Zinc. That’s good, but hardly fantastic. Promoting HCQ+Zinc as a vaccine alternative is incredibly dangerous.

@commonsaychel Oish, Air America, I remember that disaster. Michael Moore was their big draw and even he quit after he was basically ignored. I don’t know what it is about AM radio that attracts Conservative viewpoints, but in a way I’m glad it does.

@ubiquitin He spent an awful lot of those three hours daily pushing pure fiction that he knew most of his listeners believed. Up until his death, he was still claiming that the people who attacked the Capitol were Antifa hired by Democrats, despite many being identified as prominent Trump supporters.

@ubiquitin Let me clarify. Rush Limbaugh was not an intellectual. One only has to listen to his various attempts to debunk climate change over the years to understand that. “Melting ice doesn’t make the water in the glass rise!” is not an intellectual response.

The problem with “Perfidy” is that Hecht gives way too much power to Kastner. He alleges that Kastner single handedly had the koach to stop the Churban in Hungary but didn’t in order to get the Kastner Exchange (and Kindertransport I think?) off the ground.

Ironically, Hashem used Kastner as the shliach to save the Satmar Rebbe Reb Yoel ZT”L from the fires of Europe.

@syag-lchochma @daas-yochid I have repeatedly stated my position and you and the others have repeatedly muddied the waters and gave vaguer and vaguer rebuttals to it (“Just google it”, “mechanchim”, “I once saw…” etc.). You literally leave me no choice but to call you pro-death since you have made it abundantly clear that you don’t care about people dying from COVID and brush it off pretending there’s nothing to be done. All I want is a simple rebuttal to my position: Wearing masks saves lives and the negative effects of it are exaggerated.

To address your most recent goalpost moves:

You cant misquote people, misrepresent their comments, skip half of their points and call it listening.

And you can’t continue to ignore the main drive of my argument and claim that I didn’t address a non-existent rebuttal.

I told you i spoke to several doctors IN PERSON who said the masks won’t stop the spread – you said i should try speaking to doctors.

No doctor will say that it stop the spread entirely, but considering that the vast majority of experts (doctors, health organizations, nurses, EMT orgs, two presidents, and the CDC) are still recommending mask wearings I have difficulty believing that you found multiple doctors who do not recommend it and say it doesn’t help. I believe you probably asked them a very specific question, like “If everyone wears a mask will COVID be over?” and they answered truthfully that no it won’t be over.

From the CDC: Masks should NOT be worn by children under age 2 or anyone who has trouble breathing.

Read how the CDC describe someone with trouble breathing. They are referring specifically to people who regularly are hospitalized with breathing problems and give very strong recommendations that said people should take extra care to socially distant, a far more extreme act than just wearing a mask.

The person who I mentioned was told by his doctor that he cannot wear a mask for long periods.

Yichidim. Edge cases. I never denied that there are people who cannot wear a mask. But like I repeatedly said (which you’ve continued to ignore) those people are so few and far in between we can make special accommodations for them. They absolutely do not account for the sheer number of people who are running around in crowds without masks, and they are absolutely not an excuse for random yutzes to not wear a mask because it makes them uncomfortable.

The fact is that there are gedolim on both sides of the equation.

There are no two sides to the equation anymore than there are two sides to the question of whether the Earth is round or flat. There’s people who are rational and people who are duped. Unfortunately, a lot of gedolim are surrounded by a filter of people who is their only connection to the outside world. So if the filter is biased, the gadol’s opinions share that bias.

Alright that’s enough. No more goalposts movements. Wear a mask. Unless you have some severe health problem there’s no reason not to wear a mask. And no respect should be given to those who say that it’s a personal choice. These are facts and this is my position. Address them, or move on.

@daas-yochid Addendum: Just for fun, I went through the entire first page of Google results for “asthma mask”. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. Every result is about how important it is to wear a mask even for asthmatics.

And to add on the the mechanchim thing, the only thing I’ve ever heard a mechanech say that’s pro-death is “It’s difficult to expect kids to wear masks all day”. Which (1) does not support your argument at all and (2) is patently false as many Yeshivos do have mask rules and the kids follow them.

@torahvaluesoverparty We can agree now that COVID is killing 1500 people in the US daily that masks are necessary. We can agree that if COVID will “only” kill 100 people in the US daily that masks will not be necessary. I don’t know where the line is drawn, I’ll leave that to people smarter than me. Right now it’s clear that the line hasn’t been passed yet, so let’s worry about whether or not to wear masks when we start to approach it.

@daas-yochid Ah it was you. You double down and claimed that I was lying when I said “You called Hatzalah on a man choking to death on a mask”. What was my lie? That the man wasn’t choking, he was “struggling to breathe”. OK. Sorry, whatever veracity you had went out the window at that point. I exaggerated the story to prove a point: that if someone had Hatzalah called because a mask inhibited their breathing, then many people would have had Hatzalah called. But they weren’t, QED.

Look, I don’t deny that there are people who are psychologically incapable of wearing masks. Your friend (if he exists) was probably having an anxiety attack. But don’t pretend that masks are dangerous. Especially when it’s imperative that we try to wear them as much as possible around other people. Anyone who is having psychological difficulty wearing a mask (the only possible difficulty) needs to see a therapist ASAP. They are no different than an alcoholic who cannot drive without getting drunk first.

Oh and I googled “Asthma and masks”. First five results were from some pretty reliable sources and all talk about how masks don’t affect asthma unless the someone regularly needs machines to breath. I am not diving into the weird part of the internet just to find one or two obscure conspiracy sites that bolster your argument.

You have yet to bring a single rational argument about how the mild psychological affects of mask wearing somehow trump the major sakana of not wearing them (see: my drunk driving moshol).

I already know that at least one of you (honestly I don’t want to name names because I’m too lazy to look through old comments) invented a story involving the dangers of masks then called me a liar because I repeated the story a little differently when calling them out on it (I think I said “couldn’t breathe” when the original fiction was “choking”). So I’m sorry if I’m coming out disrespectful, but I think it’s pretty obvious that you’ve lost all reason for anyone to respect your position.

The biggest hypocricy is the media focusing on Cruz’s arrogance that hurt no one, and all but ignoring Cuomo’s lies that killed thousands.

@daas-yochid We’ve done this song and dance before.

A) I do not respect other’s “right” to not wear a mask anymore than I respect other’s “right” to drive drunk. It’s a danger to others to pretend that a pandemic doesn’t exist.

B) No, they do not have good reasons. The reason is “it’s uncomfortable” which isn’t a good reason. Yes, there are people who the comfort is too difficult, but there are also alcoholics who can’t drive without drinking first. Both need a doctor to help them before they put others in danger.

@daas-yochid Why do you not want to encourage people to wear masks? They work, which we all know now, so why are you so against them?

The reason mask wearing is important for COVID is that COVID isn’t just “some flu”. It’s far more contagious than pretty much any other common virus out there. So even if the “hospitilization rate” is the same as the common flu (it’s not, COVID has a far higher hospitalization rate), the infection rate still makes it much more dangerous. What that means is that where a flu can affect 100 people, COVID-19 will affect 10,000. Meaning that in a theoretical closed population you are much more likely to see people hospitalized and dead from COVID than other common viruses. Which is why mask wearing is important as it lowers the infection rate. B’chasdei Hashem we will see more and more vaccinations as the days go on and im yirtzah Hashem that will mean that we will see lower and lower rates of both infection and hospitalization, making the virus much less dangerous so we no longer have to mask and socially distant.

@ujm It’s not really all that different than stock betting (AKA options trading, day trading, Forex markets). Which is kind of my point. Bitcoin, despite the hype, isn’t being used as a currency. It’s being used as a betting mechanism whose sole value comes from the fact that people use it as a betting mechanism.

@gadolhadorah I’ve been hearing about “Cryptocurrencies on the rise” for the last ten years. I’ll believe it when I see it. Right now, despite your optimistic predictions and comments about Tesla and Microsoft, I don’t see it.

Most of the reason why there’s a pandemic is that the approach of “to each their own” doesn’t work since it puts other people in danger.

The reason why we still have to be careful is that the vaccine is 95% effective. Meaning that one out of 20 people aren’t affected by it and still have to be careful. Since we don’t know who those people are, it means that everyone has to be careful. Statistically, that’s not an issue if everyone is vaccinated, since 5% is still really small. But since most people are still not vaccinated, that 5% partying like it’s 2019 can be a real danger to some people.