@torahvaluesoverparty Writing a small snippet of a fact sheet without an expert opinion on the matter is out of context. I can pick up any random chemical or machine in my house and make it sound scary by writing out part of its fact sheet. Context and expertise are important. A doctor or other medical expert understands the risks and benefits of the vaccine and can give their opinion in a much more informed manner than “This fact sheet scares me”. And the alleged miscarriages is total bunk. There have been no statistically significant increase in miscarriages for pregnant women taking an mRNA vaccine.

So we have a dangerous fool holding a scary looking fact sheet and then one-upping that by outright invented facts.

As for your tireless devotion to HCQ, it is merely one of many thousands of claimed COVID cures that doctors all over the world have observed in their work. Many have been tested and none have found anything even close to success. The fact that protocols very similar to the ones your doctor friend claimed 80-90% cure rate were tested and found lacking is enough to say that there’s little hope that this observational study will bear any fruit.

@torahvaluesoverparty Sorry I missed that comment of yours in which you explicitly tell people not to take mRNA vaccines. That is wrong. Not everyone has a choice as to which vaccine to take. If they do, they should speak with their doctor. Better to take the 99.999% safe mRNA vaccine than to risk continuing to spread a dangerous disease.

In most cases of get refusal, the Beis Din has already issued a siruv and cherem against the husband. Then it’s perfectly justified to call the man a rasha and protest at his house or whatever. In the small cases where Beis Din did not pasken against the husband, those have to be taken on a case-by-case basis before forming a lynch mob.

The inherent problems with social media means that it’s almost impossible to have a true frum social media site. The best option is a closed WhatsApp group.

@torahvaluesoverparty There are not “thousands” of professionals who claim that, as you do, HCQ+zinc can cure COVID and results in a 90% decrease in mortality. There are thousands of professionals who say that it can be used as a treatment for COVID, but it’s not a miracle drug and there are only a small few yechidim of experts who claim it is. You say people should get vaccinated, but you are simultaneously giving a lot of credit to dangerous fools like @Tristate-Jew who would rather we lose R”L thousands more to COVID.

@always_ask_questions The problem with promoting HCQ isn’t the question of how effective it is, it’s the issue of promoting it as a replacement to vaccination, which a lot of frum people unfortunately are. Furthermore it seeds distrust in doctors and experts and leads to situations where people will refuse doctor recommendations in favor of Biorhythms, essential oils, dowsing rods, or whatever fakery is popular today.

It’s a good question and I don’t think there’s a simple answer to it.

According what organizations and activists like the ADL have considered anti-Semitism, we would have to include many frum Jews under that umbrella.

According to what more extreme activists have considered anti-Semitism, Hitler yemach shemo was only criticizing the Zionist movement.

I think the answer has to be looked at on a case by case basis.

@syag-lchochma @commonsaychel I’ve heard that many communities that had lax COVID standards have been keeping quiet about the true toll it’s taken. The large simchas, packed shuls, no masks, testing only healthy people, and other violations have actually killed and hospitalized many many people. But since it causes such a geshrai, they just go on as if life is normal and say “Well, that guy was old anyway, we’ll just say it was a heart attack”.

Remember what Chazal said about nevuah these days and to whom it was given to.

@MadeAliya The problem is that זכות doesn’t mean “right”, it best translates to “privilege”. The difference between the two is that a “right” is something that everyone can do and it cannot be taken away, barring extreme circumstances. A זכות is something that you are awarded. So what you’re saying is that we can only earn the זכות of walking around without face masks and social distancing.

At the end of the day while every life is precious, there is a cheshbon to be made as to what an individual’s responsibility is in saving lives. Like how we weigh driving against deaths by vehicle. Or mentally ill people owning firearms against firearm deaths by mentally ill people. Or wearing a mask against deaths by COVID. Or wearing a mask against deaths by the flu. Or opening schools against deaths by COVID. Everything is a calculated risk and we have to calculate if the risk is worth it. In some cases it is, in some it isn’t. We can’t equate every risk.

@Syag-Lchochma

A part of me believes the flu comparison is a red herring, but I do believe your disregard for the developmental and emotional damage these restrictions have caused/are causing is criminal.

Eh. I only brought up the flu because @MadeAliyah keeps harping on it. I’m not disregarding the bad parts of the restrictions, I’m saying that you and others are exaggerated the damages caused by wearing masks and de-emphasizing the advantages. You’re viewing this as a binary choice, like the other guy. That either we lock everything down, or we just let everyone do what they want.

I mean, for example, closing schools is a very extreme restriction that has very bad effects. Even though schools being open leads to COVID hospitalizations and Chas v’Shalom even death, it’s simply not worth it to keep them closed. But simple things, like wearing masks, or splitting a minyan up so there will be less mispallelim in each, those should be done since the tradeoff is so minimal.

@madealiyah You made aliyah, so (unless you live in Ramat Beit Shemesh) you probably speak some Hebrew yes? Please say the statement “It is my right to not wear a mask” in Ivrit.

It is important to act in a way that will save people’s lives. It’s less important to always be careful on the off chance that one person in a thousand can be saved. Wearing masks saves many many lives. That is fact that you have yet to dispute other than baseless claims of breathing restrictions and comments about how an individual’s comfort takes precedence over someone else’s health.

All the best

@daas-yochid If 90% of the shul became sick in the same three month time span, then they were either on the receiving end of some insanely bad mazal, or doing something wrong.

@madealiyah I pashut don’t understand why you keep bringing up the flu. Everyone wearing masks to stop the spread of the flu may help save a dozen or so people a year. That’s a very hard number to justify. But we are not experiencing the flu, we are experiencing COVID-19 where masks can help save hundreds of thousands a year. Do you not see the difference?

@daas-yochid

I explicitly said that these Rabbonim (who have no problem with an unmasked indoors crowded minyan ) are aware of the CDC guidelines. They just choose to ignore them. And their reasoning for ignoring them is extremely disturbing. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for even extremely intelligent people to believe patently false information. Especially these days when it’s very difficult for someone unaccustomed to modern media to know what to believe.

A shul where 90% of the people have had Covid, and the other 10% are spread out,

OK, hold your horses over here, this is a big change of pace. At no point did you say that we are talking about cases where there’s herd immunity. Because that’s a whole nother ball game. I do know that many shuls have rules about when people can take their masks off, based on when they had COVID or a vaccine. I’m not thrilled with it, but I’m not against it either. Was that what you were talking about this whole time?

My issue is most shuls do not have 90% infection rates. There was some thought that back in June of 2020 that COVID ran its course in frum communities and herd immunity was reached. That turned out to be wrong when Elul came and brought a horrific din v’cheshbon on many many people.

Furthermore, you say “90% had COVID”, but when they had COVID is extremely important. Within the last 3 months, fine. Six months ago? Not great, but OK. Earlier? Most people who had COVID lose their antibodies after six months. So a shul where everyone had a fever in Av and decided to unmask now has to go back to acting as if no one is immune.

@madealiyah Why are you looking at this as a binary outcome? That either we never wear masks or we always do? You seem to want me to provide you with a number that I don’t know, so fine I’ll make something up. When US COVID deaths go down 90% from their peak and stay that for one month we can stop wearing masks.

Furthermore, you keep stating that your main problem with wearing a mask is that it is uncomfortable. Like I keep repeating, that’s simply not a good enough reason. There are many things that are uncomfortable but we do anyway.

@daas-yochid

Maybe one day you’ll admit that maybe, just maybe, you’re not really smarter than all of the talmidei chachomim (and it’s not just one or two) who haven’t mandated masks in their yeshivos/shuls/kehillos.

That day is today: There is little chance that I am smarter than any of the Talmidei Chachamim you are thinking of.

When did it become controversial to say that my Rabbonim are correct and other Rabbonim are not? Especially in a matter unrelated to Torah, this isn’t “Elu v’Elu”. Look how the Chovos L’vovos discusses medicine in terms of the theory of bodily humours. Do we say that he is absolutely correct and every doctor and Rov who ever paskened a medical shaylo alive today is wrong?

You know, I was confused at first with the reactions, but now after talking to people, reading what people have been saying, and listening to various speeches, I have an idea as to what’s going on. So I’m just disappointed that the people who surround many of our Rabbonim that are supposed to be the ones doing the research on secular matters, are instead resorting to believing everything they hear in the shul coffee room. Were you not disappointed two years ago when several Rabbonim were fooled by fake news and started saying that vaccines are dangerous?

@syag-lchochma

Dangerously distorted view towards gedolim and daas torah

I would argue that it’s others who have a dangerously distorted view. People are nebbuch treating some gedolim as nevi’im (l’havdil) where they cannot possibly be wrong even on matters they are unfamiliar with. I am not sure how these individuals view a machlokes.

Rav Breuer ZT”L famously retired when he turned 80. He said that his reasons are that he always refused to pasken on shaylos that he couldn’t personally investigate and once he became old he didn’t have the koach to look into every new situation. I can’t find any flaws with that logic and he’s been proven right time and time again. Do you fellas not remember the debacle 15 years ago with Rav Elyashiv ZTL’s Gabbai and the psak the Rav gave on Indian sheitels?

@daas-yochid Unfortunately the immense decline in Torah and teffilah Rachmana Litzlan was the second worst thing to come out of this pandemic. Fortunately, we have discovered a mostly safe way to continue learning and davening b’tzibbur. And that’s to do it with certain guidelines in place. Maybe you don’t need a Vort, L’chaim, Chasuna, and Sheva Brachos with hundreds of people in each. Have multiple minyanim so people can be more spaced out. Hand sanitizers on every table. And mandatory masks. If the masks don’t work for you, that’s fine. You can walk outside and take it off for a few minutes if you want. And it’s worked. COVID spread has been almost non-existent within shuls that take those precautions.

Look I understand that people hate the masks. Heck, I hate them, they are annoying and bothersome. So I get why people will balk at a mask mandate. But that doesn’t make it right. It’s important to overcome the discomfort and difficulties to help keep this pandemic to a minimum. So it’s extremely important to stress to those who don’t want to wear masks how they need to try and overcome this personal difficulty and that this is one thing we can do that can help save many lives. Shoin, half of frumkeit is being told you have to do something even if it’s difficult for you! Rabbonim have no problem telling people to keep better kashrus, dress with more tzniyus when it’s hot in the summer, or to keep away from other pritzus, and those are things people find very difficult to do. So why are masks different?

You say less and less people are coming to shul because they don’t want to wear masks. I’ve seen the opposite, less and less people are coming to shul because the other people don’t want to wear masks. People are afraid of catching COVID and when they see how casual many frum places are with the whole deadly virus thing, they stop going.

Which is why I don’t get your casual opposition to it. And when I say “you”, I refer to yourself personally and all the other Rabbonim, community leaders, and others that are just OK with it. Look at the frum community in Chicago, or Los Angeles, or Baltimore. Or even most goyishe communities in the world. Nearly every supermarket, shul and school, with few exceptions, has a mask mandate. And you know what? The shuls aren’t empty, the people aren’t having panic attacks, and everyone has no problem hearing their friends when shmuzing during davening. Are the people in those communities such sheep that they will do something that they hate and find pointless just because the government said they have to? Or maybe they are all supermen, specimens of amazing feats of strength to have shuls full of people wearing masks for an entire Yom Kippur?

Wearing a mask isn’t nearly as big of a deal as you make it out to be and that’s a simple fact.

The one other thing you keep coming back to is what Rabbonim have been saying. (Personally, the Rabbonim I am familiar with and speak with have all been adamant that masks should be required in shuls.) I’ve been hesitant to talk about this because it’s something that seriously disappoints me. The truth is that Rabbonim are not infallible. Most of them get their news filtered through trusted gabboim who are as much subject to fake news and bias as any am ha’aratz. There are some Rabbonim, (Rav Dovid Cohen SHLITA comes to mind) who make an enormous effort to investigate a secular issue themselves before giving advice or a psak based on it. If one of them say something science minded, I will perk up and listen. Then unfortunately there are other Rabbonim who I greatly respect in terms of their Torah learning but have learnt to ignore what they have to say regarding other things. A prominent Rav once put a man I know in cheirim after only speaking with the party who felt wronged (he later retracted and apologized). There’s a well known Rav who published a kuntrus stating that astronomers are wrong and the sun goes around the Earth. Another infamous incident involved a Rav who promoted the dangerous conspiracy theory that measles are harmless and the vaccine is dangerous. There’s a quiet incident where a gadol assured a piece of technology that was designed and vetted by well known posek, and the issur showed clear ignorance to how the technology worked. Do I even have to mention the various actions of some frum people who believe that every answer to every question is found in the transcripts of their late Rav’s speeches? So would you please excuse me if I don’t have a fanatical devotion to what some people think of as Da’as Torah.

@mobico Did you see the pictures of Africans in If I Ran the Zoo?

@kruise @lakewhut Did the rate of infections go down so they stopped wearing masks, or did they stop wearing masks and the rate of infections went down? Has the rate stayed down for a long period of time, or is it in tune with the spike/valley pattern we are seeing in areas where people are not careful about COVID-19? Since these shul goers stopped wearing masks has there been more or less COVID-19 cases than similar shuls that enforced mask wearing?

@torahvaluesoverparty Ah. I stand corrected. I was unaware that the findings from Kiryas Yoel had been published. Still I’m skeptical about the paper. The man spent nearly a year reporting in the bizarre and unproffesional fashion of posting videos to YouTube and only now publishes a paper? Looking in to it, it seems as if the journal it was published in is connected with Didier Raoult, the guy who started promoting HCQ. Which makes me take the paper with a grain of salt. Also, it seems like this is what @charliehall called an observational study which isn’t as firm as clinical findings.

You keep getting back to the question of why don’t they research it. I think a better question should be why this should be researched. To be frank, there’s only a small handful of doctors and researchers that are claiming amazing results with HCQ+Zinc they are all a little non-mainstream, so to speak. There’s little reason to listen to them over a thousand other miracle cure claims that various other people have been touting throughout the past year. I’ve heard everything is a cure or prevention for COVID, from polio vaccines to some obscure dietary supplement. I don’t think you’ll find people willing to put in the time and effort to research things that have very little chance of working.

The only “pro-family” that the Republican party has over the Democrats is gay marriage. They still supported a president who hired a zoina while he was married to his third trophy wife. Furthermore, the USA almost has more annual gun deaths than the rest of the First World combined. Tell me again why the 2nd Amendment is in line with Torah values and Mitzvos Bnei Noach?

Unfortunately, it’s been a thing in Yiddishkeit since forever. Everyone is anti-Semitic against Jews who they don’t feel are the right kind of Jews. Left wing, right wing, Israeli, American, European, Yeshivish, Heimish, frum, not frum, Chassidish, Breslov, if we all have one thing in common it’s that we harbor contempt for Jews who are not living a life that we think of as Jewish. And I do not exempt myself from this, it’s something I have to work on.

@tristate-jew Your first mistake is assuming there are two sides to this argument. There aren’t. There’s the side of rationality and the side of fear. Either rationally accept the data that the risks of the vaccine are extremely slim compared to the risks of not taking it, or give in to the fear of the unknown and promote that fear because of something you don’t understand.

@syag-lchochma So let’s not shame people for not wearing masks. Let’s respectfully educate them and criticize those who choose to promote dangerous fictions. Would that be OK with you?

I am willing to receive information if you have any information to give. But no. You have nothing to give. You are just yelling. Everything I say you pick on with insults of “LIES! SHEKER!”. We aren’t arguing because you haven’t put forth an argument. So far in these four pages of comments, about 90% of your responses have been you claiming that I am unreasonable without actually explaining your position or attacking mine.

@torahvaluesoverparty Ah yes, you are right. I mixed up Zinc with azithromycin. And I guess you can see a reduction from 26 to 20 as 20% and not 6%, that depends on how you read it.

My main issue is that people have been promoting HCQ+Zinc as some sort of miracle cure, despite the fact that the data on it shows a small benefit at best, and questionable in most accounts. A recent frum magazine took a reader poll as to whether people will take the vaccine and one common response was “I will just take HCQ”. I always pick the Henry Ford study for a few reasons. For one, it was a single study that directly contradicts several other studies so the data is a little questionable. Second, even the most optimistic reading of the data only shows a small benefit to taking HCQ. There’s a benefit, sure, it can help. But that doesn’t mean you can now have Chasunas of thousands or join a No Lives Matter rally without a mask.

@bored-guy An easier way of stating your comment is “I hate black people”.

@syag-lchochma You would rather believe some insane story that logically either never occurred, or is such a rarity it proves nothing than to simply put a piece of fabric over your nose and mouth. But no. I am the liar for calling you people out on your dangerous nonsense.