Liz Cheney and her father have been some of the most conservative, right-wing, voices in DC. She’s been an adamant and unwavering supporter of Israel her whole career. She’s staunchly conservative on all the family values issues that much of the frum oilom holds dear.

But she doesn’t like Trump.

Her ouster is disappointing. The GOP has moved from being the part of conservatives to the party of “Trump no matter what”.

@MadeAliya The proof is the CDC, the Misrad Habriyut, my local doctor, all the doctors I’ve spoken with, my Rov, my local Va’ad HaRabbonim, and about a thousand published papers all saying that wearing a mask should not be a choice as it saves lives. Not necessarily the lives of people wearing the mask, but people they are around.

Now, with that in mind, can you please defend your position that wearing a mask is a personal choice and if it makes you uncomfortable you can just not wear it?

@syag-lchochma I never said I am pro-death! Stop LYING!!!!!

@daas-yochid

Do you deny that every year people die of the flu and that if everyone wore masks there were would be fewer deaths from flu?

In a word, yes. I explained my position in earlier comments, I’m not going to repeat myself.

@daas-yochid Let me explain this in the same mature and level-headed manner in which you responded to most of my comments.

LIAR! I NEVER SAID THAT! WHY DO YOU ALWAYS LIE ABOUT EVERYTHING?!

@madealiyah We can sit down and have an honest discussion right now, if you want. You admit that wearing a mask will protect other people from COVID-19, yet you refuse to wear a mask because it’s a minor inconvenience. That’s your position in a nutshell. Please defend that position without veering into tangents and attacking me.

@Health and @coffee-addict If literally every single news organization except two fringe ones are too “liberal” and “fake” for you, maybe the issue isn’t the media but what you are choosing to believe.

@madealiyah The reason that the flu spreads is because people who are showing symptoms of the flu aren’t careful and infect others. If everyone is careful about the flu, no one will die from it. COVID is different, since it much more often can infect others without symptoms. So the level of effort needed to be careful with COVID is much more chamor, hence the masks.

For the upteenth time at what point does “more” make a difference?

The point where it makes a difference, in this context, is where it lowers the infection rate to below one. The flu has an infection rate of about 1.4 mostly because people aren’t careful and do things like interact with others while they have a fever, or send their kids to school when they may not be feeling well and the flu is going around. Taking the same care with COVID as most people do with the flu will give COVID an infection rate of about 3. So again, there is a much higher level of effort needed to stop people from dying from COVID than to stop people from dying from the flu. And that includes wearing masks.

So if you care about people dying from the flu, don’t send your sick kids to their friends house. If you care about people dying from COVID, wear a mask. (This last sentence may not be applicable if most of your community is vaccinated). I do both.

Woe is to me, for I have been found guilty of being inconvenienced by wearing a face diaper, and losing a job!

I’m glad you finally admit it. Your convenience is more important than the lives and health of others.

You do not want to “demand that people should mask to protect others” from the flu,

I think we covered that. Wearing a mask is pointless if you’re doing the minimal needed to protect others from the flu.

@Health I’m sorry, but for my and your own mental health I think I’m going to have to stop you here. You are not sounding like a reasonable person. You’re repeating half-truths while ignoring whole-truths. You’re not being calm and rational, you’re just using exclamation points everywhere and calling everyone who doesn’t agree with you 100% as “Liberal” or “Leftist”.

Please take things down a notch or ten and stick to facts. Then maybe we can talk.

@Health Right now, what we’re arguing is whether or not a statement given by an individual alleging fraud has any truthiness if they refuse to name names, places, or times under oath. Myself (and pretty much every lawyer on the planet) says no. You say otherwise. Let’s move on.

You are continuing to ignore the specific cases and rebuttals I brought down in favor of this NewsMax non-story about a woman alleging fraud. Nu?

@torahvaluesoverparty I meant that the Democrats failed to stop the audit.

@Health Apparently she was a temp that was there for a few days. She never gave any details to what she saw beyond what you’ve already wrote. She didn’t say what day it happened on, what time, the words that were spoken, how many times she saw it happen, or any details that could have lead to any legal action. All she said was what some of other Trump supporting poll watchers said: “There was shady stuff going on, pretty sure about that, but I can’t give specifics”. Literally thousands of people watching polling sites for the slightest wrong move, and the strongest witness testimonies all seem to be these vague statements like “We were told to leave the room so there may have been fraud then” or “There was voter intimidation but I don’t know who, how, where, or when”.

@Health You can’t have a constructive dialog if you keep adding things to talk about. You have to focus on a few specific things at once, otherwise you get what’s called a “Gish Gallop”. So let’s take a few things one at a time. Second, let’s stick to somewhat reliable sources. YWN counts, so does Fox News, PBS, and Daily Wire. OAN, Facebook, NewsMax, and Twitter do not count as reliable sources.

Jessy Jacob Testimony: The (Republican) judge threw out her testimony because

“It asserts behavior with no date, location or frequency or names of employees.

“In addition, [she] offers no indication of whether she took steps to address the alleged misconduct or to [alert] any supervisor about the alleged voter fraud. Ms. Jacob only came forward after the unofficial results of the voting indicated former Vice President Biden was the winner in the state of Michigan.”

In other words, she was willing to testify on the generalities but refused to name any names, times, or places. So her testimony was worthless and not at all indicative of fraud. In all likelihood, her hesitancy was because she misinterpreted something that she saw or maybe just outright lied about it.

So you insist I just comment on your Post about Georgia!
Lucky for you – I found Fraud there too!

You did not address the specific claim I brought up, Google “Georgia votes one in quadrillion”. As for the video you mentioned, I actually addressed that in one of my previous comments.

Does this mean that you are against any socialist policies? Like libraries, government funding for Yeshivos, Social Security, FAFSA, Section 8/HUD, and welfare?

@coffee-addict @torahvaluesoverparty The clerical error was only in what was reported, the actual vote count was never affected. So even all the clerical errors in the world wouldn’t have changed the outcome.

I can see I’m not convincing anyone. Then let’s pick apart some other issues. I’m going to ignore the Republican election officials who were adamant that there was no fraud, and also the fact that all proven cases of fraud only totaled to a few dozen votes scattered across multiple states, and instead focus on specific claims

In Georgia there was a video showing a room full of ballot counters that empties out at the end of the day, then two people pull out suitcases from under a table, open them up, and add the contents to the ballot stacks. OAN purported that the video was showing secret ballot stuffing. In reality, according to people familiar with procedures, and the people who left the room in the video, the workers were opening ballots, not counting them, and the suitcases were full of already opened ballots that were added to the piles of open ballots waiting to be counted by another group.

A Trump attorney claimed that in Nevada, 42,000 people voted twice. In court, the evidence to back up that claim was slim to none and relied on a compilation of incomplete records obtained from the DMV matching up with names of people who voted.

99.9% of the other claims had little to no evidence to back themselves up. I specifically picked claims that on the surface were solid enough to even bring to court and/or have the President specifically address them. As you can see, even a cursory examination reveals the claims to be bogus.

I can bring up claim debunkings from here until Moshiach comes, but you can keep saying “But what about the other claims!”. If debunks on four of the strongest claims weren’t enough to make you skeptical, then what will?

@madealiyah I absolutely did not agree with that statement as you can see yourself by my next comment in that very thread. The discussion about the flu was you comparing apples to oranges and accusing me of being as callous and uncaring as you are. The truth is, to protect others from the flu you don’t need to wear a mask all the time. You just have to be careful not to go out in public with a fever, or to be extra careful when the flu is going around. Unfortunately, COVID is much more contagious so that’s not good enough. You have to wear a mask.

Your statement shows your true intentions. You are inconvenienced by being forced to wear a mask. Kal V’Chomer you are inconvenienced by lockdowns, no minyamin, washing hands, etc. The only possible maskono is that you care more about your own convenience than the lives of others. Therefore, pro-death.

@syag-lchochma

why is Biden allowing only 200 some people at the state of the union address, stating it is because of COVID?

What does Shmittah have to do with Parshas Har Sinai? Biden loves putting on a show about how careful he is about COVID (l’afukei the last president who didn’t give to hoots about how many people it killed) and when he has to do something public, he goes above and beyond recommendations and guidelines. Obviously, in private he has no qualms about violating his own rules. You can’t bring a raya from what Biden does to what people are supposed to be doing. Just listen to your doctor and listen to the CDC.

@torahvaluesoverparty Never, in the history of the human race, has an investigation into a matter where charged emotions have their minds already made up, changed the minds of anyone. An audit will not “reassure most of those tens of millions”.

Hundreds of millions of Americans believe that a man who lived 2000 years ago was Moshiach and a god. Just because a lot of people believe in something doesn’t make it true.

@torahvaluesoverparty I see no logical reason why we have to devote time, energy, and resources to every claim by every guy standing on a street corner and shouting. For the Shouting Man, it’s a win-win situation. Either they find evidence to back up his claim, or they waste time looking for evidence and make it look like his claim is actually legitimate.

@mbachur @coffee-addict Because it’s hypocritical to say that the impeachment investigations of Trump are illegitimate due to lack of evidence, but investigations into voting fraud is valid.

@Participant OP is cherry picking one quote by Dr. Fauci to try and deride him and his policies. Not only that, but he and other like minded individuals have a history of unhealthy mockery of healthcare proffesionals summed up by the phrase (and I quote) “Why should my comfort take precedence over your safety?”

So it isn’t just about answering this “one question”. It’s addressing the whole insanity of regular Am Ha’aratzim who suddenly think they know better than every single doctor on the planet. Dr. Fauci may not always be right, but as the mouthpiece of the medical establishment, he’s certainly worth listening to.

The pro-death crowd, such as @MadeAliya, speak Dr. Fauci’s name like Chabadskers talk about Rav Shach ZT”L lehavdil.

Both are incredibly important figures that have done a ton of work in helping the tzibbur and both have been the public faces of a series of opinions held by the vast majority of experts.

Chabadskers choose to pick on Rav Shach ZT”L and deride his memory because it’s easier to attack a single man’s opinions than admit that he was far from alone in what he was saying.

So too pro-deathers have Dr. Fauci as their target. It’s hard to admit that virtually every health professional and organization in the world has been saying the same things as Fauci (or at least when the argue, it’s only on small issues like double masking) and that you know better. It’s much easier to just pick one guy and call him a nut.

@always_ask_questions If your Rav tells you not to listen to your doctor, you need to find a new Rav.

What is a Trump are how are there multiple Trumps in the CR?

@mbachur @coffee-addict The irony is that it’s working both ways. Either CNN is all fake news and only NewsMax is accurate, or Fox News is all fake and only Vice News is accurate. Why can’t I be critical of views that I don’t like and praising of views that I do like, no matter who it was that said them? Both the Democrats and Republicans, Liberals and Conservatives, hold of multiple opposing views that I find abhorrent, and also views that I agree with.

@torahvaluesoverparty Can we back up a second? What’s your issue with climate change?

I know in the Torah we say “Yom oh yomayim”, that if a person dies from a medical complication then the attacker isn’t chayav misa. But I don’t think that applies here. If someone mugs and attacks an elderly man, causing him to have a heart attack, do we say that the mugger is innocent because the man had a bad heart?

Modern gebroks chumros is a minhag, not halacha. The answer depends entirely on what your mother or community does.

Is a deli matzah sandwich problematic? What about a cheese melt? Do you put washed lettuce leaves in your Korech? Fruit juices? Is it OK if it’s within 18 minutes? Every question has its own answer and none of these answers are found in halacha, nor should they be.

Mods don’t moderate over Yom Tov. shrugs

@torahvaluesoverparty The death statistics are flawed and continue to be flawed because they only focus on the individual, not the danger that said individual presents to others. Meaning, if a 30 year old perfectly healthy man lives in a box, it’s unlikely he will contract a serious illness from COVID. The issue is that we are communities, and for every person that doesn’t take the vaccine that’s another person spreading a dangerous virus. And this virus can spread. Like really really fast, much faster than most viruses we are familiar with.

Furthermore, even by your own reasoning everyone over 40 or with any sort of chronic health issue absolutely should get vaccinated, which is in direct contradiction to your previous blanket statements telling people not to.

Finally, almost all of your reasoning rests with the idea that the vaccines are “untested”. Not only is that blatantly false (at this point far more people have had the vaccine shots and for far longer time than FDA approved testing groups) but it was never true to begin with! The FDA fast tracked the human testing, meaning that they allowed vaccine manufacturers to test on humans before they were convinced that it was safe. And guess what? The four approved vaccines passed the human trials.

Now let’s get back to HCQ. I am not a doctor. You are not a doctor. You aren’t even a scientist with regular experience reading and deciphering scientific discussions, papers, studies, medicinal fact sheets, and research. So neither I nor you can say what HCQ does or does not do. But my doctor said it doesn’t work. And out of all the many many doctors, nurses, PA’s, epidemiologists, and other healthcare workers I know, not one thinks another HCQ study will yield significantly positive results. (A doctor I know did recommend vitamin D and ivermectin, but specified that it’s far from a sure thing) And I’m willing to bet that, unless you lived in Kiryas Yoel a year ago, you don’t have a personal physician who recommends it either.

But we can put all of that to the side. Even assuming that your numbers are 100% correct, people are simply not getting treated with HCQ. You have also made it clear on multiple occasions that HCQ should not be taken instead of the vaccine. So that settles the matter. You agree with me that people should be vaccinated and are arguing with @TristateJew who says that more people should just die.

@torahvaluesoverparty I’m not saying that the vaccines are perfectly safe. I’m saying that taking a vaccine (any vaccine) is a thousand times better than not taking one, considering that an individual is far more likely to contract COVID and be hospitalized that experience any major adverse effects from the vaccine.

This is a dangerous opinion because it pushes the fiction that there are a significant amount of doctors who don’t want people to vaccinate. You can’t say “There are two sides, immunize or not immunize” when one side has the majority of the medical establishment, and the other side is a guy who graduated last in his class in 1975 and has been running an accupuncture clinic ever since. It’s like lehavdil the equivalent of saying that you can eat pork because your friend from high school told you that chazer doesn’t mean pig.