@torahvaluesoverparty I’m not going to start chasing down every new scenario that’s brought up. I don’t know who Ruby Freeman is, nor do I care. I do know that every single accusation I looked at where Trumps team was claiming to be iron-clad proof turned out to be wet paper-clad. And then I came to this thread and I asked (repeatedly!) for any evidence that could convince a person that there was widespread fraud. The best examples given were a lady who didn’t know what she was talking about and a two hour video of a guy who did (but lied the whole way through).

Better yet

VP Harris lies and says “I care”

@torahvaluesoverparty and @SyagLchochma The problem with doing your own research is that you’re not a researcher (unless you are? I don’t know you guys). You are unfamiliar with polling processes, how things usually work, and the vocabulary.

Nobody, and I do mean this literally, who is honest with themselves and did a deep dive into the voting fraud claims can say that Trump may have won.

As I illustrated in my previous comment, even a cursory examination of some of the strongest claims shows a lot of glaring holes and inconsistencies. Like for example the claim that 250,000 Arizona (not Michigan as you erroneously said) votes were switched from Trump to Biden, when that really means 250,000 adjudicated ballots and the number 250,000 appears no where outside of Mike Lindell’s videos.

I mean, I’m sorry guys, but I’m not going to chase down every single source for every single fraud claim being made. Because I’ve chased enough of them to pure fantasy land, and if that’s any indication, the rest are unlikely to be any stronger.

So far, the worst thing to come out of the Maricopa audit is the name of the audit team, “Cyber Ninjas”. Ugh. Did they hire a 10 year old boy to do their naming?

@Health Mr. Lindell’s claims at the beginning of his video don’t hold any water. Here are a few of them on Maricopa County:

36,400 illegal aliens voted. That’s a very specific number. I can’t find anything on that number. The closest thing is a Republican claim that they received an anonymous tip that 35,000 votes were added for Biden for every vote. Which should be pretty easy to prove with some simple forensic statistics, but they didn’t. They just accepted it at face value. Also it has nothing to do with illegal aliens. OK, so that’s a lie on Lindell’s part, next.

150,000 voters registered after the deadline. I’ve discussed this in a previous comment. It’s pure nonsense. Lindell lied again. Next.

250,000 mail in ballots requiring adjudication. Even if this were true, it’s meaningless. Adjudication is a normal part of counting votes. It just means that they need to examine the ballots to check for fraud. Counting all adjudicated ballots as fraudulent votes that went to Biden is pure dishonesty.

I shouldn’t have to add anything to these. Lindell is clearly more dishonest than my local used car salesmen and is willing to literally invent numbers and state them as fact.

It boggles my mind that people ignore the advice of countless Rabbonim, askanim, doctors, epidemiologists, politicians, and other experts because of random things they found on some shady corner of the Internet. Why does Joe Hutzenputz’s crummy video of random news clips and poor audio have more ne’emanus than literally anyone with any authority on the subject?

@Health

Lindell’s claims that 10 times more votes went to Biden than should have are baseless. For the states that could have gone either way (AKA swing states) Biden won by a narrow margin, not ten times more. In no vote count in a swing county did Biden receive ten times more votes than expected.

Scytl is a public company. You can check their website, their tax filings, and their shareholder disclosures. They do not have offices nor subsidiaries in Germany. Lindell took Ghomert at his word. But since Ghomert lied, then Lindells claim doesn’t have any more truth to it. I did not see anything in the video that states a name of a subsidiary, so if you have a link to the exact time it was mentioned I am all ears.

I think I understand the issue over here. You weren’t convinced by Lindell, you simply have emunah on Donald Trump. Emunah is not something that requires “evidence”. It’s something you believe in because it’s a mitzvah. There’s no mitzvah to believe Trump, so you need evidence. Right now, as we’ve established over and over again, there’s simply no evidence. Just lie after lie parroted by Trump and people like Mike Lindell. Why do you believe? Why do you have such a low criteria for believing Trump, yet have these massive mental barriers erected before you can even begin to doubt him?

Who is “the government”?

Dear @Health,

What you are commenting on is called “goalpost movement”. It’s a debating fallacy where you change the subject. I gave three counterpoints to claims stated in Lindell’s video. You ignored two, and attempted to disprove one. Your disproving was flawed, as you eventually admitted, leaving me with three questions as of yet unanswered. Instead of responding, you change the subject to talk about whether a foreign country had the ability to change the vote count.

I’m not discussing nor watching the entire video because the little I saw was horribly flawed and outright untrue. Saying that you’re not going to continue this discussion until every little claim is debunked is another debating fallacy called a “gish gallop”: stating hundreds of points and declaring yourself the winner until the other side can disprove each and every one of them.

Let’s make this easy on each other. You pick two pieces of evidence that you think are the strongest indicators that Trump won the election. They can be clips from Lindell’s video, articles, or other things. We discuss those. The conversation ends when we are either both satisfied that the evidence shows one thing or another, or neither of us are satisfied with the other’s evidence. OK?

@Health. I repeatedly said that I didn’t watch the documentary. I only browsed a few minutes here and there. And no, it wasn’t on Vice.

I have a link to the full unedited video which I have no interest in watching all the way through. So please tell me at which point is proof brought that the pipeline was hacked. Was it at five minutes in? Seventeen? One hour and thirty two?

And I am sticking to my original statement: Flynn said that the Dominion voting machines were connected to the internet. Not the pipeline, not the counting system, but the machines themselves. Clearly that was a lie as you yourself admitted. So why should I believe anything else Lindell has to say?

@Health The portions of the Lindell documentary I saw say that the votes may have been switched, and the machines could have been hacked. But I didn’t see anything where someone said it actually happened. Can you point the timestamp out to me so I can watch that section of the movie?

@MadeAliyah

1. Why yes. I did use the governments reasoning to say that mandating masks is correct. Because it makes sense and has evidence and data to back it up. Unlike the anti-mask crowd whose evidence and data consists entirely of throwing a tantrum and shouting “You can’t tell me what to do you’re not my mom!!!!”.
2. I never said it’s not ethical to mask for the flu. I said it’s not necessary if basic precautions are being taken.

OK, now on to the next part.

1. If everyone followed all the rules of the road, lowering speed limits to 10 miles per hour will not save any lives.
2. Children can spread COVID to adults. That’s why they have to mask. Again, for what seems like the millionth time, masking is not to prevent the masked individual from catching COVID but to prevent those around the masked individual from catching COVID

@n0mesorah It seems that there’s a large and significant portion of the frum oilom that during 2020 were very quick to deride public officials, and ignore restrictions with all sorts of cheshboinois and svarahs while thousands died from COVID. Lifi aniyas da’ati, that’s your crowd.

I have only making one point in this thread. The government has a right to mandate that people wear masks when around others. It’s not difficult and it’s not confusing.

What is “an intrusion on normality”? Last I checked, COVID-19 was a massive intrusion on normality. In 2020 there was no more normal. So being mandated to wear a mask when out in public in order to protect people around you was as normal as you’re going to get.

The pandemic is, unfortunately, still with us. But I am referring to last year when it was far worse and we didn’t have a vaccine. Now, Baruch Hashem, when you have communities where 90% of the klal were vaccinated there isn’t the same danger so it’s a completely different discussion.

This entire thread is about something Dr. Fauci said. Why would I think anyone commenting here would not try to understand what he said? He’s a public official trying his best. Sometimes his best involves acting before there’s data just in case the data shows his assumptions to be wrong.

@shomershabbat I haven’t heard any firsthand stories of major issues directly related to vaccinations. It’s always “a friend of a friend” or a screenshot of a Facebook page. But I do know of many firsthand stories of major issues that people had from COVID, including children or people who got it from children. “Just do the research” and “All on the web” are nariche statements. I have read these websites that claim to show the research. I don’t trust them. Especially since so many of them are so anti-Semitic. Look I’m not saying we need to start lining up infants to get the shot immediately, but if you’re giving me tzvei tzdadim of a pshat, one from a doctor who I literally trust with my life, and one from some random website on the Internet, it’s not a shayloh who’s word I’ll take.

Also, and this goes for @Always_Ask_Questions too, my doctor didn’t actually tell me anything yet and I haven’t yet asked. But whatever she says, I will take very seriously into account when making my decision. And I will double check with other experts. My town is zocheh to have a team of doctors who have been tirelessly researching COVID and advising the local Va’ad and all the Yeshivos on their decisions. So it’s not just “some med school graduate” nor are they “misguided”. They are literally devoting hours every day to investigating and reading the literature on COVID and the vaccines. So yeah, I trust them.

But let’s get back to @MadeAliyah’s original post.

Dr. Fauci said that he’s hesitant to tell vaccinated people that they can take off their masks until the data comes in that the vaccine significantly stopped the spread. He had every reason to believe that it would, but just wanted to be 100% sure. That isn’t fearmongering, that’s being careful.

@Health I’m not sitting through two hours of video and debunking it piece by piece. So I showed you where to find someone who did and does. If you want to pick ten minutes of the video to discuss, then do so. Otherwise you’re just debating by throwing garbage and declaring yourself a winner.

I mean, a lot of what you are all saying makes some sort of sense. There’s definitely less of a need for kids to get COVID vaccinated than adults. But I still disagree with one major point. I trust my doctor a thousand times more than anything I read on the Internet. Otherwise, why go to a doctor at all?

@n0mesorah If I understand your comment correctly (and please excuse me if I don’t, I’m feeling stupider than usual today) you’re saying that the government has no need to regulate safety for things that are common sense? I pashut don’t get that reasoning. Governments regulates common sense safety measures all the time to stop people who don’t use common sense.

Tommy Lapid hated Yiddishkeit with a passion. Yishai isn’t the biggest fan of Chareidim, but he understands enough that he doesn’t oppose their mere existence.

@ujm A cookie?! You’re so fancy all of a sudden? The Yekke is sitting down with half a piece of unsugared kichel and a cup of seltzer.

To add to what everyone is saying, being Yekkish is more than just waiting three hours between meat and milk. It’s an attitude, a mindset, and a hashkafa. I find it incredibly sad that there are individuals who think that Minhagei Ashkenaz can be boiled down to a few rote customs that don’t take much conviction to uphold. It’s not just about showing up on time (although that’s part of it). It means being reliable, being consistent. It means being flabbergasted that another yid could possibly cheat, like the famous story of Rav Schwab ZT”L who was asked about a case involving a frum person who committed tax fraud, “Nu? Was he frum or did he cheat on his taxes? You can’t have both!”. It’s Torah Im Derech Eretz, but it’s so much more than that! It’s understanding what it means to view the world through the lens of Torah and not shut yourself away, but appreciate Hashem’s beauty in all the gashmiyus from science to literature. It’s about change, not clinging to “that’s what was always done”, but to not be afraid to move things around if necessity arises. Do you know why we don’t have any Sifrei Halacha from Rav Breuer or Rav Hirsch? Because it’s a big part of Yekkishkeit that things change, and every psak may be only a Hora’as Shoh. What a Rav said fifty years ago may no longer be applicable and shouldn’t be looked at like Torah MiSinai chas v’shalom. It has it’s own way to make a Kiddush Hashem, to show the world the beauty of the Torah by example by following the Torah to be exemplary human beings in the eyes of the world. It’s not about walling Torah off from the world and cultivating it in a small, fenced garden. But about seeing how there are no walls to the Torah, and the only way to truly be a Ben Torah is to see how everything and anything is Torah!

But yeah. Wimples and tallios are nice. That’s what people like. Whatever.

Genetics. Yekkishkeit is generally passed from father to son (with a few notable exceptions, like one of Rav Breuer’s daughters who married a Litvak but raised her kids to wear tallios and wait three hours) . So if a yekke has no children, or only daughters, it’s unlikely his grandkids will be Yekkish. So every generation there are fewer and fewer tallios in middle school.

@MadeAliyah And yet you still haven’t addressed why you are OK with the government mandating how fast you can drive. Why is that any different from you claims of “govern my face”, “civil liberties”, and “power grab”? It’s something you are personally doing that the government is preventing!

@Health The videos and articles I referenced address the computer systems and the experts on the Lindell video. Why don’t you read and watch those before coming to any conclusions?

Why are you so insistent on calling everyone who doesn’t agree with you “liberal liar”? Last I checked, the only liars are those who claim something happened, but it didn’t. People like Donald Trump and Mike Lindell who claim that the election was stolen, but are in actuality simply lying.

@MadeAliyah That’s a lot of words for addresses nothing about my main point. You keep trying to derail the topic by pretending that my concern about COVID is hypocritical because I’m not equally concerned about the flu, when I’ve already made myself clear that the two are not comparable.

You keep repeating “the burden of proof is on you” over and over again like it’s some massive shtuch and completely ignoring the fact that the proof is out there in what the CDC and Misrad HaBriyut have been saying. So the burden has shifted to you to prove them wrong.

Your main issue is that you don’t feel like the government (or my “power grab” whatever that means) has a right to mandate that you wear a mask, even if it does a lot to protect people. You have yet to address what, exactly, is the issue here since the government mandates things like that all the time, such as speed limits.

I’ll admit, I was very skeptical of the theory that the virus had origins in the lab as a lot of the original reports came from some very questionable and inconsistent sources. But the latest batch of studies made me change my mind. That doesn’t mean I think it’s a bio-weapon that got loose. I just think that there’s a possibility that they were studying a natural virus, cross bred it with a different virus, and it accidentally got out.