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@syag-lchochma I’m not as upset at AAQ’s dystopian vision of separate shuls and schools for those who are unvaccinated. Mainly because getting a vaccine is a choice to take on a tiny near-impercievable risk to ones self in order to help others. So while I don’t like the idea of “separate but equal”, I also don’t have a lot of sympathy for those who choose not to help protect their fellow menchen.
@rightwriter Hold your horses there Marjorie Taylor-Greene. Last I checked, you’re in a frum forum where Churban Europa comparisons are frowned upon. If you said the same thing in a goyishe forum, you’d probably be called an anti-Semite.
@ywnjudy What’s wrong with robotic appendages?
I question the idea that ant-vaxxers believe that more people will die from the vaccines than COVID if no one takes it. I’ve never heard an anti-vaxxer explicitly state that and they always shy away from direct questions like “Don’t you think that the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the possible side effects?”
I think they are mostly just afraid and are letting their personal feelings get in the way of seichel and common sense. They don’t want to take the vaccine, so they justify it with mounds of contradictory and vague statements.
At this point I think it’s abundantly clear that there’s no evidence that the election was stolen. The Maricopa Cyber Ninjas have spent months dragging their feet and whining that they are being stymied because they aren’t allowed to canvas door-to-door to double check the people’s votes. Mr. Pillow Man spent three days talking about nothing, claiming to have 14 terrabytes of data as proof, but refused to do anything with it other than show some brief images on a screen.
And of course, anyone who casts doubt on anything Trump says is automatically a RINO or a “lying lib”.
@syag-lchochma I direct the term “pro-death” to those who are single-mindedly opposed to any and all proactive measures that can counter COVID-19. At this point that means mainly vaccinations. In this thread, it was not meant for you but if you think that describes yourself, then so be it.
@smerel It’s a simple statement: Are there thousands of real practicing medical doctors who secretly oppose the vaccine but are afraid to speak out or aren’t there? I don’t think there are considering every doctor I’ve personally spoke with has been passionate that people get vaccinate, some going above and beyond the call of duty to get involved in organizations and askanim to get the vaccine to the frum oilom. Furthermore, every time I’ve seen an article or video about a doctor who opposes the vaccine, it turns out they aren’t really a doctor.
@syag-lchochma We’ve tantzed at this chasuna already. If you oppose the vaccine and are actively promoting dangerous lies to convince people not to get it, you are either a shoteh or want people to die.@philosopher said:
There are many professionals, doctors and professors who came out against the shots.
This is another piece of propaganda that unfortunately seems to be swallowed by many frum Jews. It’s simply not true. There are almost no actual practicing medical doctors nor professors or other medical professionals in fields related to vaccines and viruses that have come out against the three vaccines! Read any pro-death (you know, the type of individual who is OK with another half a million people dying from COVID because “co-morbidity” or “they were old”) blog you can find on non-Google search engines and any pro-death video not on YouTube. They will invariably trot out some guy or woman in a lab coat and introduce them as “Dr. Plony” or “Professor Almoni” who will then speak about how horrible the vaccine is and how COVID is no big deal and they were banned from yenner website for saying so. Try looking them up. Always, and I do mean always, they are called Dr. because they have a PhD in some unrelated field, or they are a professor of philosophy, or they work in holistic medicine, or they retired 25 years ago some small contribution to the vaccines which they exaggerate.
So unless a practicing medical Doctor that you know and has been seeing you or your family as a patient since before COVID tells you that they don’t believe in vaccines and they aren’t allowed to say so, I am not going to believe you.
If you don’t like the Google results, you can always use Bing. Barring that, you can go for the Commie ones, Baidu and Yandex. I find the Russian Yandex to be an excellent source when looking for misinformation about COVID. Putin has been working overtime to make this stuff very available for anyone who wants to look.
Here’s a hot take: I have no problem with people being excommunicated for speaking out against getting immunized for COVID-19.
Whatever health concerns you may have over the three vaccines, it should be abundantly clear that it’s still a better choice than to not get vaccinated. Not only will getting vaccinated protect yourself, but it will also protect those around you. It’s pure gayvah to talk about vaccinations and other COVID protective measures as “personal choice”. No, you’re elderly neighbor isn’t choosing to have you spit your diseased breath into her face because you wanted to say Gut Shabbos.
You’re pretending that it’s a simple question. It’s not. It’s a very complicated question that requires a lot of background and education to understand. Judging from your comments, I have my doubts that you have the education or knowledge to understand, kal v’chomer explain, what the vaccines do. You say “Whether the mRNA enters the nucleus of the cell or not”. Does it? Doesn’t it? Is it common? Uncommon? Is entering the nucleus a bad thing? None of these have straight answers and none are answerable by anyone without extensive education and experience in the fields.
I see what’s going on in countries with high coronavirus rates per-capita. Countries like Israel which is seeing right now peak Delta-variant hospitalizations which are not even as high as the lowest rate of hospitalizations before the vaccine was distributed.
And stop with this CNN-style fear mongering about “untested vaccines”. They’ve been out and tested on millions for well over a year. That’s longer and more widespread than most FDA approved medications.
So unless you’re willing to deny any and all medication, hospital care, and doctors, you have to stop scaring people about the vaccine. Facts don’t care about your feelings. You’re feeling scared, but the facts are that the vaccine works and is far less dangerous than the possibility of COVID.
How many music groups has Yerachmiel Begun been in charge of and can you name any of their songs that aren’t from MBC?
I think we’ve learnt two things from this thread:
- Don’t talk about complicated scientific processes unless you’re well educated and experienced in the field. Reading some literature you found online doesn’t make you well educated.
- If you’re feeling afraid of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines then you should have no problem taking the J&J shot.
There is no definite proof that mRNA from these shots cannot enter the nucleus.
There is no definite proof that being around blond people doesn’t turn you into a horse.
I can make any claim with the statement “There’s no definite proof that it doesn’t….”. That’s not how logic works.
I think simple math and observations can solve a whole lot.
First, think of how many people you know that died or were hospitalized from COVID-19. Think of all of those who are still having health problems. Then, think of how many people you know who died or were hospitalized from a COVID vaccine or are still having health problems. If there’s a significant difference in the numbers, your answer is a no-brainer!
You should also be very careful about the decisions you’re making! There’s a lot of serious talk about health insurance going up for people who don’t get vaccinated. There’s a good possibility that someone who is hospitalized from COVID may be responsible for their entire medical bill (even under Medicaid)!
Who still uses cash anymore?
One of the most common Shir HaMaalos tunes was originally from a different song with a different pasuk. What were the words?
OK. That’s your prerogative if you so choose. You may work and bring home a parnassa to support your family and Hashem may bless you with either having your finances in order, or having a whole family that’s content with whatever level of disorder they are in.
But that’s a personal choice between an individual and his wife.
@rightwriter Why is getting a vaccine considered a “liberal” thing? Modern politics are so stupid. Everything is either Dem or Rep, lib or conservative. When did common sense become a political issue?
Ben and Jerry’s is a private company. They are free to do or say whatever they want and the customers are free to buy or not buy their products. If they choose to be anti-Israel, that’s their prerogative. I don’t see why we need to spill so much ink on the topic.
tl;dr
Social justice advocates are hypocritical when it comes to Israel and Jews.
In other news, water is wet.
In related news, yenner website removed a video of two people discussing chess because the algorithm picked up phrases like “white beats black”.
“The structure of our healthcare industry is confusing and expensive at every level, and there’s no simple solution… I’m a conservative on most issues, but liberal on this one… The goal should be clear: We must have universal healthcare… We should have a Canadian-style single-payer system were all expenses are paid to a single agency.”
Donald J. Trump, 2000
@Health I am repeating myself over here. I don’t believe Mr. Ramsland because when he was talking in the video, in about three sentences he made a bunch of statements that can easily be disproven. Such as calling Clarity Election Night a company, or saying that they had taken Scytl servers from Germany. So I don’t believe Ramsland and neither should you.
@Health “Who cares?” You do, obviously. Else you wouldn’t be getting so worked up over it. There is zero evidence that your provided that indicates voting fraud in the 2020 elections. Zero. Zip. Nada. Nothing. Calling me a liar and getting all worked up over it isn’t going to change the facts on the ground that you are clearly reluctant to admit to yourself. It looks as if you’ve made Donald Trump so much a part of your identity that you take it extremely personally when his narrative is challenged even in the slightest way (such as “Is there any evidence to those claims other than his word?”). Please focus your emunah and mental energies into something that would actually be beneficial, like Torah and Avodah.
@Health Ramsland’s claims in 2018 didn’t involve Scytl. I think you need to do some chazarah on what you’re saying.
@philosopher You called it (or at least 100% agreed with someone who said) “modifies DNA”. That’s misleading, as it does not modify the actual strands of DNA nor a person’s genes.
Dr. Malone (whoever he is) is not being silenced. You said yourself he was on Tucker Carlson, one of the most watched talk shows on TV in the English speaking world. According to a few things from reliable sources I literally just Googled, Dr. Malone has a habit of using inflammatory, misleading, and wrong information, so I wouldn’t necessarily trust him over my own doctor.
I agree that waiting until people are 18 makes sense, but 99% of people simply cannot make an informed decision on vaccinating themselves. That’s what caused the measles outbreak in Monsey two years ago which could have Chas V’Shalom been much worse than it was.
@Health You’re the one that kept jumping around and mentioned dozens of claims of voter fraud and getting all angry if I didn’t prove each and every one wrong. So we agreed to focus on two.
Your argument about Ramsland would make sense if two things were true: (A) The 2018 claims were proven and (B) they were similar enough to the 2020 claims.
Neither is true. The claims were not proven, as evidenced by the report I and @JacobLev mentioned. And they were completely different claims, focused on different companies, different machines, and different states! In 2018 he claimed that the Dominion machines were connected to the Internet and hacked to change individual people’s ballots. In 2020 he claimed that the Scytl servers had malware on them that allowed people to change the total vote count. Very different beasts, other than the one similarity of “computer” and “vote”.
@Health Well, the fact that there were two claims that I asked you to prove, and you ignored one to focus on the second kind of indicates that shitaka k’hoda’ah, you admit I’m right.
And since Ramsland’s claims three years ago were different than what he claimed last year, you can’t really use one to prove the other.
QED
The line “affects your DNA” is incredibly misleading. It implies that it changed the genes of a person, like give them a different hair color or make them taller, kind of like what CRISPR does, which can then be passed on to their children. To backtrack and say this whole complex explanation isn’t really doing the argument any favors.
So to get our stories straight: We had two points. One point the only thing you had to go on was Ramsland’s word. And the only thing that backed that up was something that happened two years ago. On the second point you 100% admit that I am right.
@philosopher I think you need to read up what “100%” means. I have not heard any Rabbonim discussing giving it to children, but when it comes to adults taking the shot every Rav and doctor I heard who voiced an opinion encouraged people to get vaccinated. Multiple cities (not New York, Lakewood, and Monsey for some reason) had petchkvilim signed by virtually every shul and Yeshiva in town telling people to get vaccinated. So that’s who I’m listening to.
@Health You’re talking about the Dept. of Homeland Security involvement in ASOG back in 2018. You are wrong. They absolutely did not confirm his findings back then which were completely different than his findings in 2020 (which were also not confirmed by DoHS).
As we are focused on the 2020 findings (which again, are a very different than the ones in 2018 other than the tzad hashoveh of “election computers”), once again I have to restate that Ramsland has no proof.
So we are back to square one. You are claiming that fraud happened because someone on the Internet said so. I am claiming that there’s no proof because there’s no proof. I hate to toot my own proudly Conservative, Republican voting, horn, but my logic works an awful lot better than yours. If you wanted Heaven fearing people in the government, maybe you shouldn’t literally worship Trump, the guy who claims to be Xtian, but blatantly and publicly commits aveiros according his own religion (and probably Sheva Mitzvos too, at least according to some Rishonim) and has been seen praying less times in public during his whole reign than Biden has in the last few months.
@gadolhadorah I second Lakewood. People there are up at all hours working hard and learning hard. Definitely a very woke town.
@philosopher A fella posted this in response to me saying that we have to listen to Rabbonim, askonim, doctors, and other experts instead of drawing our own conclusions:
Rabbonim, Askonim and many others have been acting out of actual panic and without proper evaluation of the situation required of a Beis Din.
To which you responded “you are 100% correct”.
So please stop gaslighting me and pretending I didn’t read what you absolutely 100% did say.
@philosopher Saying “don’t take doctors and Rabbis at their word, do your own research” strongly implies that doctors were gulled into believing something not true and they didn’t do the research. I resent that implication.
You said over and over again “99% survival rate” (and only about a 90% rate of people without serious health concerns). So is it or is it not? Because your last post seemed to imply a much greater survival rate. Also, your logic of “never exposed to this virus” requires mass exposure to the virus which means one out of every 100 people literally dying. Which, and I shouldn’t have to say this, is horrific. Right now the only reason it’s about as deadly as the flu is because so many people are already vaccinated. Remember, the viral spread went in waves. Every few months over 2020 there would be a two week or so period where the papers would be swamped with shiva announcements.
He clearly said he saw the numbers that the guy voted at the beginning
Yes. Ramsland claimed he saw a lot of stuff. Stuff that was not backed up by any other independent witnesses. So in order to believe what he said, you have to take him at his word. Which is something that I find difficult, as there are several claims he makes which can be independently checked and are blatantly false.
So let’s reiterate:
I said to pick two pieces of evidence to discuss. Here is your evidence:
- “The Illegal Votes are 10 times more than the amount Biden won by!” Your evidence for this was a list that Mike Lindell supplied showing 350,000 Arizona votes that should not have gone to Biden.
- there is some sort of Malware in Germany that takes all the Info from every place. For the Highest Bidder they get to change each County.” Your evidence for this was Ramsland’s claims
OK, let’s look at them one at a time:
- 350,000 votes. Even according the the list itself, 250,000 of those votes were not fraudulently attributed to Biden, they simply went into adjudication. Several other numbers were also highly suspect as there’s literally no other source for them, like tens of thousands of illegal alien voters
- Ramsland investigated the computers and found that servers in Germany changed the votes. Well, Ramsland is a liar. There’s literally no other way to say this. On the Arizona ballot (unlike the ballots in 2019 where he had DoHS working with him) specifically, he made a bunch of false claims (like Clarity is a company, or that Scytl tallies went to the official vote count) which means there’s no reason to believe him when he says he found something that’s too dangerous to show anyone.
So I guess that settles it then, right? There’s nothing more to talk about. The two biggest pieces of evidence that the “Trump or Die” crowd could come up with are literally nothing. There’s simply no reason to believe any fraud happened.
Does anyone realize that 99% survival rate is actually super scary for a virus as infectious as COVID? There are communities where literally everyone got COVID and yes, they had a 99% survival rate. Which means that every few classes in Yeshiva had a kid sitting shiva, every shul lost one or two members, and every neighborhood had aveilim. Is that supposed to be reassuring?
I don’t know if giving the vaccine to children is the right thing to do, but I do know that I have far more trust in my Rabbonim and doctors to tell me what is. And I resent the implication you are stating that my doctors and Rabbonim are so gullible they can be tricked into supporting something dangerous.
Short of mesira, what would it take to get the moisdois responsible for this to face consequences?
@Health Ramsland proved nothing as the document I named previously goes into great detail to show. All he does is claim that he saw evidence, but conveniently cannot show you what that evidence is. His actions in Texas two years ago are not my concern, we are discussing the here and now. I picked several things he said that are easily disproven as errors or lies (servers in Germany, Clarity as the name of a company, etc.) which should be enough for an honest person to not believe everything Ramsland has to say.
If you choose instead to believe Ramsland, then, well, I don’t know what to tell you other than you are choosing to believe someone on a topic he is openly and provably dishonest about.
What’s Ubiq’s full username? I’m trying to remember if I even agreed with them on anything.
Rav Aharon Feldman SHLITA once told over a story. He was talking to a non-frum student from an Israeli college and asked about his Gemara class. “Well, the professor tells us Bais Hillel’s pshat, Bais Shamai’s pshat, and then his own pshat.”
That’s sort of what’s happening here.
@Always_Ask_Questions Yes, that was what I was getting at. That’s why it’s important to trust Rabbonim, doctors, and community organizers over doing the research yourself. Sure the data is out there, but you if you don’t know how to interpret it (or worse, think you know how to interpret it) you’re going to make a horrible mistake and potentially put people’s lives in danger.
@kollelman mRNA vaccines do not modify the body’s DNA. They are messenger RNA molecules, not DNA modifications.
@Health Most of my info comes from a document that Michigan had commissioned called “Analysis of the Antrim County, MichiganNovember 2020 Election Incident”. It details the mistakes and intentional errors that Ramsland and his ASOG team made. I guarantee that if you read the whole document with an open mind, you will doubt everything you heard Pillow Man say.
@Health One more thing: Clarity Election Night Reporting is only used to report election results to the media. The actual election results are tallied separately and not connected to Scytl systems. So even if the Clarity platform was hacked, it still wouldn’t change the results.
@Health Ramsland not Ramsfeld. This whole conversation started because I was wondering what smashing strong evidence is out there that proves Trump really won the election. So yeah, you kind of do need to convince me that you’re not just believing every schmo on the street who claims to know something. As of this moment, I’m not convinced. In your attempts to show that there’s reasonable concern to say that the election was fraudulent, you failed on multiple occasions to answer simple questions and instead insulted me again and again calling me a liar and liberal and democrat.
OK, on to Ramsland. I must say, than you for that timestamp. It contains one of the singular most hilarious pieces of dialog ever filmed:
Ramsland: The election was hacked and there’s proof in the machines that the numbers were changed!
Lindell: WOW! And you saw this code that proves it was hacked?!
Ramsland:…. no.Now, Ramsland first errs in stating that Clarity Election Night Reporting is a subsidiary of Scytl. That’s false. Clarity Election Night Reporting is the name of the service that Scytl offers/sells, not a company. Ramsland then goes on to say that they had a server in Frankfurt where they stored the votes. That’s also false, and based on a lie on Twitter by a Congressman that I mentioned earlier. Scytl does not have German servers, alleged German servers were not raided by the FBI, those same non-existent servers were not analyzed with “white hat techniques”, nor did Mr. Ramsland find QSnatch malware on them (since he never actually had access to these non-existent servers)!
@Health Until you can find me either the name of the alleged Scytl subsidiary, the time in the video in which it’s mentioned, or at least the name of the guy who mentioned it, this conversation can go no where. Again, I have no interest in watching the whole video beyond those few minutes I already saw.
I’m not going to discuss this new claim about adjudication on the Dominion machines. Lindell’s claim of 250,000 adjudicated votes was about mail in ballots in Arizona.
@torahvaluesoverparty My argument against HCQ wasn’t that it didn’t work, it was that there’s no evidence that it worked as well as you claim it did. There’s a lot of confusing writings about HCQ in general, whether it helps or not. And I do believe that it got bad press namely because Trump touted it as a miracle drug. But I still stand by my original statement that there’s very little evidence that it can be used to cure 90% of COVID cases. I am willing to be proven wrong on that one, since there really wasn’t a lot of investigation or research. But the Trump fraud claims are different since were investigated and diddly squat was found.
@Health Please please please can we keep this a civilized argument. I enjoy debating on the Internet, but your constant screams of LIAR and LIBERAL are tiresome, pointless, and counterproductive. Now on to your points:Lindell starts his video with the claim of 350,000 ballots that should not have been counted towards Biden. The claim is blatantly false as
- 250,000 of those he said should not be counted were simply adjudicated. Which means that they were investigated. The investigation turned found them to be fine, so they were counted
- You claim that there were at least 10,000 votes on that list that should not be counted. I’m calling you out on that claim, as the few numbers I did look into turned out to be fake and lies. So I highly doubt there’s any more truthiness to the other numbers
I don’t know who Lamsfeld is and I don’t think anyone of that name shows up on Lindell’s video. Searching for the name turns up this thread as the top result. If you watched the video, you should know at what point the name was said. So then watch that part again and tell me the name.
What we have here is simply a case of misplaced emunah. You see, emunah is something you believe even if everything tells you otherwise. No amount of science or archaeology is going to make me doubt the reality of Hashem and His Torah. That’s emunah. But for everything else, you should be skeptical. You shouldn’t believe things just because someone said so. It looks like you took your emunah away from Hashem and are using it on Trump instead, believing everything he ever said no matter what.
@torahvaluesoverparty and @syag-lchochma The Democrats certainly are going overboard in stifling any talk of election fraud which is stupid and just biting them in the back. But their reasoning is still sound, the more investigations they allow, the more power the “Give Me Trump or Give Me Death” crowd gains. That doesn’t mean there’s veracity to the claims just because they don’t want them investigated. Personally I think everyone should just ignore these silly endless audits and recounts. But then no one ever asks my opinion.
I googled “Ruby Freeman” for giggles. Ok, I did know about that story, but I forgot her name. Thing is, she wasn’t “the center of accusations”. She was the center of accusation for that week. Because during the end of the elections, there was a different accusation, a different claim, and a different uber-evil that was causing all the fuss! And the claim about Freeman not only didn’t have a leg to stand on, but I don’t think even made it as far as any official claim given in to courts. She’s actually a pretty good microcosm of the whole mess. She was the subject of an hour long phone conversation with a group of Georgia Republicans who had to repeatedly tell Trump that what he’s looking for simply doesn’t exist. “Well then you’re not looking hard enough”. Do you see what happened? Trump and his supporters were so convinced by themselves (and no evidence) that there was fraud, that when they were faced with the facts that there’s nothing to what they’re looking into, they refused to step down and insisted that it’s their!
This isn’t even comparable the HCQ or the vaccines. I am willing to admit that I may be wrong about those. There is a bit of contradictory research and a lot of very confusing trails that may or may not mean something. Like there’s actual evidence that HCQ helps with COVID and there were people who kept on trying to downplay it. But here, there’s literally nothing. Just a lot of people shouting about something that didn’t happen.