youdontsay

“Now you can go bananas at me. But this last paragraph tells the bystander that I knew the topic from the beginning and you have no chance until you allow Rav Moshe to talk for himself.”
So make up your mind was it, “It was hard for me to respond in the beginning. But now that I know the score, it is a lot of fun.” Or was it, “this last paragraph tells the bystander that I knew the topic from the beginning.” I would love a little consistency on your part.

“3) I don’t know who required you to answer to every word in every Rishon. But if you don’t want to accept Rav Moshe’s chiddush of rsh”r of a city you have a whole lot of words to explain. But there is a big difference between answering every word and holding the writer’s intentions accountable to the reader’s errors. If we give the writer the right to hold us to his intentions, than many things become very differnt. For example, we have no reason to assume the Magen Avram’s chiddush of mefulash was ever widely accepted. Besides for the problem of it not being sourced. [Sour ced? What’s that?]”
Your an ignoramus of the first class. We darshen on every word of the Rishonim. What are you talking about. More so, you can’t use every word of Rav Moshe when he is contradicting himself. Your argument about the MA’s shita regarding mefulash demonstrates yet again how little you know regarding the inyan. It is not the MA’s chiddush at all, it says so explicitly in the Bais Yosef. Oh, I forgot the Mechaber also needs to give you his sources. Well maybe learn through most of the Rishonim on the subject, and you will see that it was a given. Oh, and all of a sudden the Mishnah Berurah, who cites the MA, does not count. In fact they relied on the MA in Warsaw, and in Odessa. But just your flippant attitude towards the MA, one of the most important nosei kelim, demonstrates that you have no shiychus to halachah.

n0mesorah:
“It isn’t so complicated. I can’t tell what you mean when you don’t address contradictions. Not being contradictory is the first step in any intelligent thinking pattern. It could be you know Eruvin backward and forwards by heart. But since you don’t see the need to make your opinions fit with what you are stating, you come across as saying whatever fits the most recent post.
I am not claiming that I know more than you.
Nor am I saying that there are things you are ignorant of.
You are just not making any clear case. You have your own story of what anybody said and everybody may say about the eruv, and you give no regard for actual statements. I have a hard time accepting that you are any different when it comes to the Gemara or Shulchan Aruch. Blatant statements are never blatant to you. Either they are true by virtue of agreeing with you, or they are demonstrably false without any demonstrations.”
It is abundantly clear that you are simply throwing chaff at the wind in order to cover for your inability to answer almost all my arguments. All your claims regarding contradictions are nothing more than smoke. There are no contradictions at all. You came up with this ridiculous claim from 4:87, and stick to it as if it is carved in stone. You cannot answer that the contradiction is Rav Moshe’s own words, and that you are ignoring entire parts of Rav Moshe’s teshuvos. I don’t have to answer for them. It is clear that you chose a literal reading of those few words because you think you found something new. The reason you are obstinate is because you are trying to protect your find. You then have the temerity to argue that I am the one who has no regard for actual statements. You made so many arguments that you just made up out of thin air, and you take no responsibility for them. You simply have no answers. The only one you are fooling is yourself.

“It was hard for me to respond in the beginning. But now that I know the score, it is a lot of fun. I know that I can never be proven wrong, because you don’t have a clear concept of evidence being proven. You can claim that you know which two blatt long sugya I just referenced between the lines here, but you can never say which one because that would run counter to your thinking pattern.”
No you came in swinging believing that you know everything. It must give you some relief that you can claim that it is different now. You are not following no one. You realize that you do not know the inyan at all, so now you are looking for away to cover for your insolence. You make no references at all. Stop fooling yourself.

“And even though we can point to eruvin earlier in the century, Rav Moshe would counter that they were either not accepted, not built, or came about in a very unique way. Again, the question is on you as to what could possibly be Rav Moshe’s basis for counting the population of the residents.”
What a bunch of gibberish. First of all, all the large cities that established eruvin, were used by most of the population. Clearly there were cities such as Warsaw, and Lodz which contained populations greeter than 600,000, and most of the population made use of their eruv. There was no unique way, they were built and reestablished even when the population reached 600,000. Rav Moshe, unlike you clowns realized that you can’t go against the minhag, and therefore, he formulated his chiddush of three million.

“And then you finish off your response by saying that Rav Moshe “only referred to his Manhattan teshuvah in regards to his chiddush that shishim ribo is conditional on 12 mil by 12 mil.” What are you doing here? Even if you are correct about everything else, Rav Moshe is still changing that very Chiddush from being about 600,000 people around town within a specific perimeter to the population of it’s residents. This would require a completely different basis that what brought about his chiddush in chelek aleph. So how could reference a teshuvah that does not back up this new novelty that you claim is his his new formula regarding Brooklyn?”
You really have a comprehension issue. As I explained, Rav Moshe did not need to conclude what was the population required to fulfil the criterion of shishim ribo in Manhattan. Manhattan was encompassed by mechitzos and was a reshus hayachid notwithstanding the population included therein. Brooklyn was a different story was not encompassed by mechitzos [according to the way it was relayed to him (he was misled)]. Hence, the criterion of shishim ribo played the part of classifying the borough as a reshus harabbim or not. So no Rav Moshe was not changing anything in Manhattan only how to apply his chiddush in Brooklyn.

“Here is where you have the lesser side in this debate.”
You don’t know your right arm from your left regarding this inyan.

“The question I posed was that Rav Moshe wrote here that “it is all written at length in every single detail in my sefer Iggros Moshe siman 139 (Which you refer to as the Manhattan Teshuva ).” Yet you say that he changed his opinion immediately after writing that he didn’t. So you didn’t solve the actual issue at all. You have a reason for this, that Rav Moshe was formulating his opinion about Brooklyn. [It is funny to think that Rav Moshe had not had an opinion about Brooklyn when he wrote the teshuva in Chelek Aleph. As if someone of Rav Moshe’s stature has to figure out his general ideas about an eiruv when the question arises. It is even funnier when we note that the first pert of the Manhattan teshuva is about Brooklyn. And a clear understanding of the entire letter will reveal (the assumption) that Manhattan had a more solid basis for an Eruv at the time.]”
Huh. A bunch of smoke. First of all I don’t have to answer for every word of Rav Moshe, contrary to you and your ilk, I do not believe that he was a Rishon, and his words cannot be dissected as such. Furthermore, you have not answered my clear proof that he added to his teshuvah, in order to object to a Brooklyn Eruv. Moreover, I never said that he changed his mind. I only stated that the words that you constantly harp on are proven wrong by the fact that he himself added in that same teshuvah to his chiddushim. Additionally I answered that he was referring to the matter of 12 mil by 12 mil, which was his chiddush in 1:139. No Rav Moshe changed his mind regarding the criterion of shishim ribo a few times. In 1:109, it is clear that he maintained that it is conditional of the street. In 1:139:5, he wrote that he has a chiddush that it is dependent on a 12 mil by 12 mil area. Only later in Brooklyn where it was pertinent did he add to his teshuvah, how to reckon the number of people over the 12 mil by 12 mil area. [Manhattan was encompass by mechitzos so only regarding the bridges was the criterion of shishim ribo pertinent. Hence, Rav Moshe did not need to formulate his later chiddush of three million.] Your argument that Rav Moshe did not need to formulate an opinion he knew it all, is contradicted by that fact that he changed his mind numerus times regarding the criterion. Most of all, these types of arguments are made by people who worship Rav Moshe, and don’t know much about the halachic process. Rav Moshe was not infallible, and clearly, and self admittedly was mechudah in this matter. As to the the matter of the Brooklyn teshuvah (1:138) being the beginning of the Manhattan teshuvah, it is apparent you never learnt the teshuvah. The Brooklyn teshuvah is only regarding the Myrtle Ave EL, and not about the efficacy of an eruv in Brooklyn. Stop shooting your mouth off on issues you know nothing about.

“3) Rav Moshe says it is all in chelek aleph, yet you find a novel idea in that very letter. If you can’t answer this, you are obviously very wrong here. And there really is nothing else to discuss. But for fun, I’ll divert you from what is clearly the strongest proof against you. I am aware that not all of Iggros Moshe is of the same authenticity. The same is true of virtually every sefer. Including, Mishna Berurah, Aruch Hashulchan, Achiezer, and Chazon Ish. This is why we actually learn things well, instead of just rattling of sources. Your theory that Rav Moshe is saying something else in response to putting on a hat protector is laughable. (I actually laughed.)”
The laugh of an am haaratz is irrelevant. I would say that the question about the Igros Moshe as opposed to all the sefarim that you mention is different, but I will not b e party to your game. Keep on laughing it is telling.

n0mesorah,
“I don’t see the purpose in this. It happens to be fun and more stimulating than most threads here.”
Oh but I thought that I don’t know what I am talking about. Please stop your narishkite, you do not know hwta you are talking about.

“1) You trust Rav Dovid’s statement about the Chicago Eruv (An eruv even more contentious than Brooklyn. I doubt you know or care about that). Yet, you reject Rav Dovid’s statements about the Brooklyn Eruv and his father’s knowledge of the statistics. And conveniently, you never mentioned Rav Dovid’s statement about the Los Angeles eruv.”
As usual a mishmash from a know nothing. As I said, I do not need Rav Dovid to learn a teshuvah, but for you and your ilk, I cite his opinion. No Chicago was not more contentious than Brooklyn (only by some Brisker, who most definitely would have a bigger problem with Brooklyn). I didn’t reject Rav Dovid’s statement regarding the Flatbush Eruv. I stated many times here that Rav Dovid was not referring to the current eruv only to the 1978 eruv. No, it is not my opinion regarding Rav Moshe and the Brooklyn statistics, it is a fact, he wrote incorrect numbers, and was clearly mislead, by an eino modeh beruvin. Oh and Rav Dovid agreed that his father would allow an eruv in LA (see the LA Guide Book). In fact besides for his gezeirah, there would be no reason for Rav Moshe to object to an eruv in LA. Those arguing against an eruv in LA in Rav Moshe’s name are simply ignoramuses, and do not begin to know his teshuvos.

“I could answer every point, but there is no reason to.”
You can’t answer anything you do not know the inyan.

“We reached the end of the debate last time I posted and you didn’t even realize.”
Clearly you do not know what you are talking about, hence you don’t realize what I realize.

“You have proven yourself a hypocrite.”
Oh, please please inform.

“Rav Moshe clearly writes in the teshuva from 79 that it is all explained in Chelek Aleph. So clearly Rav Moshe’s opinion was not fluid. You just learned everything wrong.”
I will post again, as you have comprehension issues. Rav Moshe in this same teshuvah changed his mind from chlek aleph, so please stop with your nariskeit. Rav Moshe needed to formulate, at this time, his opinion, since Manhattan’s metzious was unlike Brooklyn. I reiterate, in his Brooklyn teshuvah Rav Moshe only referred to his Manhattan teshuvah in regards to his chiddush that shishim ribo is conditional on 12 mil by 12 mil.
Alas, I understand your issue. You do not accept that all teshuos in Igros Moshe where penned by Rav Moshe, but are afraid to utter this out of your mouth.

“Rav Moshe’s shitah is clear and constant: Six hundred thousand people on a street makes that street a reshus harrabim. The same number out and about in a city, makes the public places of the city into a reshus harrabim. Precisely how to count a city is of no consequence, because if it is close than we are unable to guarantee that the eruv will contribute to shemiras Shabbos and are exempt from building one.”
Gibberish. Besides you obviously do not know what a sratya is. No. Rav Moshe shita is not clear, and it changed over the years. You constantly lie about it, because you do not know what to do with the inconsistencies. How to count a city is stated clearly in Igros Moshe, stop lying about it. In fact Rav Dovid agreed that his fathers shita is three million, when he allowed the Chicago eruv. In fact, the absurdity was on full display in Chicago. The anti-eruvniks argued that they disagreed with Rav Dovid regarding his fathers shita. Only those who osser can disagree with him.

“1) So you are left wondering about Rav Moshe’s intentions with his Flatbush teshuva. Because there is no chance that you are wrong here. But you won’t wonder about it either. We should ask Rav Moshe to wonder for you.”
Childish

“2) Rav Moshe writes that he is forced to write about Flatbush, because people think he permitted it. What compelled him? Is it possible that he believed that people are not allowed to carry with an eruv based on a mistaken belief of Rav Moshe’s permission?”
That is exactly it. Nevertheless, he stated clearly that he cannot issue a psak din barrur because he is mechudash and is arguing on the poskim.

You can split hairs now.

“3) Comprehension alert! Without Rav Moshe’s opinion, there is less of a reason to build an eruv in a mega-city. The simple understanding was that a population of 600,000 makes the city into a rsh”r. Rav Moshe is bringing about new ways to be lenient throughout his teshuvos.”
Totally incorrect. Rav Moshe understood that shishim ribo is conditional of the street, but then came up with his chiddush. So in fact you are arguing on Rav Moshe. There is no posek of stature that maintains that shishim ribo is conditional of the city, besides for Rav Moshe. Hence, Rav Moshe is machmir. Even the Mishkenos Yaakov understood that it is conditional of the street.

“So take away his chiddush and try to use the Aruch Hashulchan. (Except that the Aruch Hashulchan is trying to incorporate the Mishkanos Yaakov into the accepted halacha. [Meaning, that the sugyos go according to the Mishkanos Yaakov, but the halachah is different because of his chiddush.] But I doubt that matter is a factor to you.)”
It is not a factor, because it is not the Aruch Hashulchan’s chiddush, but only Rashi himself, and other Rishonim (Eruvin 59b). Furthermore, there are many other reasons to allow, such as mefulash umechavanim, and mechitzos.

“Nobody is adding to Rav Moshe’s opinion to forbid the eruv. And there is no way around it. His shitah is very straightforward, as it appears in chelek aleph.”
You simply do not know what you are talking about. Just one example: Pirtsos esser. According to the anti-eruvniks of course Rav Moshe maintains that it is d”Oraysa, but Rav Moshe maintains that it is me’d’rabbanan.

“4) A thourough review of Rav Moshe’s writings, show that many of his rulings were not given with a horaah lasos. Rav Moshe was very humble about forcing his opinion on others.”
Irrelevant

“You can still build any eruv you want. You can even put up an eruv in a bungalow colony, that nobody will check for years on end. You can build an eruv without knowing the topography. I don’t care.”
Sure and throw out hilchos eruvin. This is what the campaign opposing eruvin achived.

“But don’t go around proclaiming that Rav Moshe’s shittah is not definitive, when Rav Moshe clearly says it is.”
His shita changed, and his psak was based on incorrect information.

“As he told Reb Tuvya, you can disagree with him. But at least make the effort to properly understand the teshuva.”
And Rav Tuvia believed that Rav Moshe would allow the current eruv.

“You have no clue what I am talking about, yet you invoke the mysterious ‘inyan’ again.”
We shall see if I don’t know what you are talking about.

“If anybody cares to know, in between the first teshuva and the Flatbush teshuva, Conservative Judaism started driving on Shabbos and abandoned their ‘eruv until the suburbs’ project. For further information, you can still find all kinds of silliness among Conservative teshuvos written this year about the concept of eruvin.”
Total nonsense. There simply is no analogy there. In fact Rav Moshe’s allowing an eruv in Queens is proof that you are just making up nonsense.

“I am not arguing that people should not use eruvin because of this battle. I’m pointing out that there were brilliant minds pushing for eruvin at this time, that were not long for Orthodoxy.”
Irrelevant, as the argument does not begin.

“At one point, almost every rav in Brooklyn was asking Rav Moshe if he supported an eruv. Misrepresenting gedolim to the public is not a new problem.”
Simply untrue. They just followed the askanim who talked them into signing.

“Uh, okay. But Rav Moshe did write a very clear teshuva that any competent Ben Torah can decipher.”
Uh, OK. But most did not bother to really learn through them, and many did not fully understand it. Even more so, they definitely do not know the other shitos.

“PS I wonder what ‘the inyan’ means to you.”
What you do not know.

“The fact is that dozens and dozens of Rabbanim heard directly from Rav Moshe that an eruv should not be built in Brooklyn.”
There are no dozens and dozens of rabbanim who spoke to Rav Moshe regarding eruvin. There aren’t that many rabbanim who know the inyan.

“4) Rav Moshe doesn’t pasken against other rabbanim. (Except for thousands of instances that are convenient to ignore.) And if one follows those rabbanim he can still not be in contradiction to Rav Moshe’s opinion. Even though Rav Moshe told them not to build an eruv. Because what he actually said and thought should not be considered when reading his writings.”
Gibberish. In any case, Rav Moshe many times does not follow other rabbanim, but how many times does it bother him enough that he writes that he therefore can’t issue a psak din barrur. Never, only in this particular case. This should be very telling. But of course, you never realized this because you do not know Rav Moshe’s teshuvos, and do not realize that there are major holes in the argument against establishing an eruv.

“Okay, that is what I think you are trying to argue. You don’t get that I am trying to give you a chance to talk. I could crush every one of your mistakes with a dozen responses. But then you come with a bunch more incoherence. Admittedly, this is not a topic I know well. But you are so tripped up, I can’t help myself. You fell into every net I put out. You are completely oblivious to how the eruv battle aligned with the attack on Orthodoxy. You don’t even know ten percent of the eruv story. And whatever you do know that I don’t you do not want to share. This isn’t a machlokes leshem shamayim on your part.”
Silly. Your arguments are demolished just by a cursory glance at this entire thread. You make grand statements and can’t back it up. You then continue with ancillary arguments and smokescreens to cover your am haratzus. You can’t demolish nothing, you simply are in over your head. Your insistence on arguing that the eruv battle aligned with the attack on Orthodoxy, demonstrates your meager knowledge regarding the inayn. Unless of course you are referring to those who are eino modeh beruv. How can someone who admittedly knows next to nothing about an inyan, wade into a maclokas and argue if it is leshem shamayim or not?

1) You are either thickheaded or a liar. You are not answering Rav Moshe’s own words. I am not the one making up the numbers. So if you believe that these numbers should have been included in chelek aleph, ask it on Rav Moshe, not me. Anyone who skips the numbers because of the few words that you are harping on, is dishonest. And yes I did offer possible answers to your irrelevant fake argument.
2) You never learnt the Brooklyn Eruv teshuvah in chelek aleph. It simply has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
3) You again are trying to pass yourself off as one who is all knowing. You do not know the inyan and are trying to play catch up. You are not the one to arbitrate if I am wrong or not.
4) No you have continuously left out numerous issues, but this is very glaring. It is obvious that you do not learn much halacahah. It is simple. Rav Moshe maintained that his chiddush was correct but since other poskim disagreed with him he did want to issue a clear p’sak. Hence, those following other rabbanim are not really contradicting a clear p’sak of Rav Moshe. [In any case, even if Rav Moshe would be issuing a clear p’sak one should follow his rav notwithstanding Rav Moshe’s opinion.]

Your just not able to understand simple matters. No, he was not referring to the numbers required in his first teshuvah, since he never mentioned numbers there. Your being silly for hanging onto words that are irrelevant to the conversation. Lets try explain Rav Moshe’s shita regarding shishim ribo again:
Like most poskim, Rav Moshe originally maintained (Igros Moshe, O.C. 1:109) that the criterion of shishim ribo was dependent on the street having shishim ribo traversing it. However, later (ibid., 1:139:5) he formulated his chiddush in which shishim ribo when applied to a city was not dependent on a street but over a 12 mil by 12 mil area. Rav Moshe added that the criterion of shishim ribo ovrim bo would require a sizable population living and commuting into the 12 mil by 12 mil area so that it could physically satisfy the condition of 600,000 people collectively traversing its streets. However, at this time Rav Moshe did not quantifying how many people would be required to live in this 12 mil by 12 mil area.

In the first teshuvah quantifying how many people would be required to live in this 12 mil by 12 mil area, Rav Moshe stated (ibid., 4:87) that since in the past eruvin had been erected in cities with populations exceeding shishim ribo, one could not classify a city as a reshus harabbim solely on the basis of the existence of a population of 600,000. He then added that although the actual number of inhabitants could possibly vary according to the city, in Brooklyn it would most likely require four to five times shishim ribo. In the final two teshuvos which followed regarding Brooklyn we see that Rav Moshe codified his chiddush that the requirement is, “just about three million people,” (ibid., 5:28:5) or, “at least five times shishim ribo,” (ibid., 5:29) which could amount to even more than 3 million people. Consequently, in the Chicago eruv pamphlet (West Rogers Park Eruv, 1993 p. 23) it is stated that Rav Dovid Feinstein shlita was in agreement that according to his father’s shitah there must be a minimum of 3 million people in order for the city to be defined as a reshus harabbim.

This is comedy. I continuously write what Rav Moshe meant, but you avoid his clear words that I cite, and I am the one that “refuses to explain”? You hang on to a few words of Rav Moshe, and refuse to admit that his shita evolved. What about the teshuvos that I cite, are they not Rav Moshe’s words? How utterly ridiculous is your argument. Forget knowing sugyos, how about alef bais.

It is amazing how obstinate you are. You clearly did not know Rav Moshe’s teshuvos, but fancy yourself as all knowing. Now you are trying to play catch up, but you have the gumption to write that my learning of the teshuvos are messy. You have the chuzpah to argue that I do not understand the sugya, when you barely know Rav Moshe’s teshuvos, never mind the Rishonim and Achronim on the sugya. You think that you are making strawman arguments, but in fact you are not making arguments at all. You simply have no inkling regarding the matter.

No one ever claimed that Rav Moshe is not entitled to his opinion. You can repeat this lie as much as you want it will not make it true. You cannot show me one person of repute who made this statement. It is a figment of your imagination, because you would like it to be true.

As to your exposition of Rav Moshe’s teshuvos, let us see who is omitting pertinent parts or not. (Never mind, the numerus mistakes that I illuminated – all along- that you conveniently do not answer. So much for understanding sugyos.)

שו”ת אגרות משה אורח חיים חלק ה סימן כח
ומווארשא שעשו שם עירובין, אף שהיה כרך גדול ידוע לפי חשיבות כרכים גדולים שברוסלאנד ופולין, לא היו בה ס’ ריבוא ברחובות שהוא רק בעיר שדרים בה ערך קרוב לשלשת מיליאן נפשות. ובווארשא לא היו שם כל כך אינשי ואף המחצה מזה לא היו שם. ועוברים ושבים ג”כ לא היו כל כך שישלימו המספר. ובשאר הכרכים לא היו עירובין, אלא בחלק קטן בהעיר מקום שדרו שם רוב היהודים ושם לא היו ס’ ריבוא

שו”ת אגרות משה אורח חיים חלק ה סימן כט
שיהיה שייך לאמוד שימצא בחוצותיה ששים ריבוא, דהוא שייך רק כשיהיו תושבי העיר עם העוברים ושבים ממקומות אחרים לכה”פ חמשה פעמים ס’ ריבוא דהוא ערך שלשה מיליאן

יראה העם וישפוט

I reiterate, regarding Brooklyn Rav Moshe only referred to his Manhattan teshuvah, in regards to his chiddush that shishim ribo is conditional on 12 mil by 12 mil. In light of the above to argue otherwise, demonstrates dishonesty.
Alas, I understand your issue. You do not accept that all teshuos in Igros Moshe where penned by Rav Moshe, but are afraid to utter this out of your mouth.

n0mesorah,
“I don’t understand how you reconcile Rav Moshe writing to the Rabbanim in Flatbush (1978) that it is all printed at length in every detail in the first volume of Iggres Moshe, with your opinion that Rav Moshe only came up with the three million number in this teshuva and then reworked a year later?”
Show me where Rav Moshe wrote in chelek aleph anything about the numbers which he required. They do not exist. Rav Moshe is referring to that he formulated his shita regarding shishim ribo being conditional of 12 mil by 12 mil. However, the actual number of people residing in the area that it would require to have 600,000 people traversing the streets at one time, he did not express in this teshuvah (since it was not nogeia for Manhattan). Rav Moshe originally wanted to argue that 600,000 people residing would be enough. In 4:87 he clearly makes this suggestion, and then argues that the minhag was not as such. Hence, how can one say that Rav Moshe did not add to his shitos later on, regarding Brooklyn? I do not have to explain these words of Rav Moshe when in fact his shita evolved over time. To deny that Rav Moshe’s number is three million is denying the entire Igros Moshe O.C. 4:87-88, 5:28-29.

“And all those who spoke in learning with Rav Moshe, testify that even to his last days he said his shita is like it is published in chelek aleph.”
I don’t care what people say they never learnt his teshuvos.

“Rav Moshe makes some additional side points. These may have come from the in person discussions. And then reiterates why he didn’t stop them even though he disagrees with putting up the eruv. His wording is, ‘that it is against what he holds is the law’.”
You again omit that Rav Moshe states that he can’t issue a p’sak din barrur, because he is mechudash.

“1) The assumption is that there is 600,000. One would have to prove that there isn’t. And even if they do, people won’t know about their proofs. And similar considerations.”
You keep on omitting Rav Moshe’s clear words, three million. It is obvious that Rav Moshe’s words are difficult to stomach. Since these numbers would allow an eruv in Brooklyn (and regarding his gezeirah he would allow a section to be demarcated with a tzuras hapesach).

“2) The Rashba about public open places (platya). This could be even if the total population is 600,000. There isn’t a clear precedent for this complication.”
No. As I mentioned previously, Rav Moshe, in the end allows that a platya is reckoned as part a 12 mil by 12 mil area, which would require a population of three million.

“Then Rav Moshe writes that all three reasons are valid even according to what they told him that there are not 600,000 in Brooklyn. Meaning, that there is no way to build an eruv in Brooklyn even if there is not for sure a rsh”r. It simply runs into too many problems that we don’t have a precedent for. So Rav Moshe held not to put up an eruv in Flatbush and avoid the problems. Which is comparable to Yerushalayim.”
No. The only reason not to make an eruv in Brooklyn, according to Rav Moshe, is because he thought there was a population of over three million over 12 mil by 12 mil in Brooklyn. If the numbers are any less than it is a gezeirah, that some may think that it is a reshus harabbim. However, regarding this issue if a tzuras hapesach would encompass a much smaller area in Brooklyn, there is no doubt that he would allow an eruv. Regarding Yerushalayim, as I mentioned, if an eruv was already constructed for Manhattan, Rav Moshe allowed, how much more so regarding Brooklyn, where he was not even sure if it can be compared to Yerushalayim. Moreover, Brooklyn is encompassed by mechitzos, so there is no doubt that Rav Moshe would allow an eruv.

“Rav Moshe has no intention of counting the city as was evident in his first teshuva. But if one would count and have 600,000 in the streets than Rav Moshe would have forbade the eruv. And it would be null according to his opinion.”
No. Rav Moshe did not need to count the numbers, because his first teshuvah was regarding Manhattan, where he realized that it was encompassed by mechitzos, and so the numbers are irrelevant. Only regarding Brooklyn did he need to calculate.

“Some people use this paragraph as way to calculate, but that is not the point. Such would only achieve that it is not a reshus harrabim beyond any doubt. It wouldn’t rule out a safek doraissa and it ignores all the nuance of the first teshuva. Additionally, there is no statistical rule here. Rav Moshe lists five different activities to count. In two different places. And three estimates. Since it has no practical application, there is no reason to be clear about it. The point is to get the idea.”
Absolute gibberish. No. Rav Moshe’s teshuvos are only about reshus harrabim, and that some may perceive that it is a reshus harabbim, and not about safek d’Oraysa. It has everything to do with statistics. If an area of 12 mil by 12 mil has a population of three million, then Rav Moshe maintained that it is a reshus harabbim. If a large city contained less than three million than he would not recommend an eruv be established (Rav Moshe never argued that it is a safek d’Oraysa, only that one may think that it is a d’Oraysa, hence it is more like a gezeira not to make one). A sratya would require 600,000 traversing therein to be classified as a reshus harabbim. You do not, “get the idea.”

“The debates that follow to our day are not really about halachah. The center of the debate since the late Seventies was, is Rav Moshe entitled to his opinion. Rav Moshe himself held he was, but others would say that the majority disagreed with him. And even Rav Moshe himself may have agreed that he wasn’t entitled to his own opinion.
Rav Shmuel Birnbaum was very bothered by this attitude. But not everybody should be a masmid like Rav Shmuel Birnbaum. He was enough for the whole Flatbush.
All the more so, to imagine what Rav Moshe was up against forty years ago, when rabbis still spoke about business acumen as a qualification for being considered an educated Jew.”
What a bunch of gibberish. No one upheld that Rav Moshe was not entitled to his opinion.

Someday:
“@Hoo Hoo
A reshus harabim deOraisa cannot have an eiruv, even with 3 mechitzos around it.”
So sorry you are simply incorrect. Most poskim maintain that an area encompassed by mechitzos, would be classified as a reshus hayachid, notwithstanding a reshus harabbim contained therein. Most poskim maintain that even a tzuras hapesach would reclassify me’dOraysa a reshus harabbim as a reshus hayachid.

“There is also the opinion that even full mechitzos are not enough for an open area where the public gathers. Rav Moshe expands this opinion and then says his shtikkel about Yerushalayim. Yerushalayim was fully enclosed but yet had a rsh”r inside it. This seems to uphold this opinion. And it is clear that there were times that putting up an eruv in a metropolis is not a given. And this that the minhag is to be zealous about putting up eruvin that is because they understood that there needs to be 600,000 for a rsh”r. All eruvin that were put up were in cities without 600,000. And we have no minhag to be lenient about this. This is clearly Rav Moshe’s psak not to put up an eruv without precedence.”
Major conflation of the issues. Rav Moshe maintains (O.C. 1:139) that mechitzos would not be sufficient for sratyas. Rav Moshe also states that we do not have a minhag regarding sratyas in cities containing shishim ribo. Rav Moshe argues that they did no establish an eruv for Yerushalyim even though it is a chiyuv to establish one, was because they did not want that those who come to Yerushlayim should establish eruvin in cities that are prohibited. Manhattan he compares to Yerushalyim, and Brooklyn he says is possibly like Yerushalyim regarding this issue.
Later Rav Moshe writes (O.C. 4:87-88, and Hapardus) that the minhag was to establish eruvin in cities containing shishim ribo, and hence, he sets forth his chiddush of three million over a 12 mil by 12 mil area. He also admits that the population of a 12 mil by 12 mil area is reckoned for a srtaya, and not the entire city. Rav Moshe also writes regarding Manhattan that once the rabbanim establish an eruv he would not make use of his argument regarding Yerushalyim.
There is no three million people over an area of 12 mil by 12 mil in Brooklyn. There is no sratya that services a 12 mil by 12 mil area that contains shishim ribo. If Manhattan after the establishment of the eruv, Yerushalyim was not a concern, how much more so regarding Brooklyn where he questioned if it can even be compared to Yerushalyim.
[Rav Moshe’s argument regarding Yerushalyim is puzzling. In fact there is no ciyuv to make an eruv for an entire city, only maavaos and chatzeiros. Some Rishonim actually state that an eruv was made for the maavaos and chatzeiros of Yerushlayim.]