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“But imagine the flip side, the hurt of those girls sitting home month after month without a date! They would love to slave over their hair, makeup, outfit choice!
And for what, because you didnt like a picture?”
As a working guy who lives OOT, I don’t need to “imagine” it. Not all guys have lists. Yeah, I agree it’s even harder for most girls, but I maintain that seeing pictures makes it easier for everyone.
BP Totty: I wouldn’t know, I’ve been working for a long time. I would imagine learning isn’t that easy. Anyway, I don’t think he was complaining. He said that dating is not as easy, as “it’s just a night” and that’s true, regardless of whether he’s learning or working.
blinky: I don’t have a problem with them looking to see if she’s pretty, even if they’re local. Also, she should provide a current pic, not one from high school. As for the sister, and mothers, I agree, it’s ridiculous. I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to send a pic, I just don’t think it’s fair to say that anyone who asks for one is bad.
BP Totty: I don’t see why it matters if new2thescene is working or learning, his point stands and I don’t think he’s whining.
Smartcookie: So, why are you so quick to assume (based on your earlier comments) that guys who say no b/c of a pic are judging or looking for perfection?
To those of you who have referred to guys who ask for pictures as “stupid, shallow, vain, bums” or whatever other derogatory terms you choose, here’s a couple things you might want to consider before condemning us like that.
1. Not every guy and girl live in the same city, some even live outside of the NY/NJ area (chas v’shalom) and some of those guys and girls are working (chas v’shalom again). So, for some people, just going on one date can be a big expense. Dating is hard enough on it’s own. When you have to spend hundreds of dollars, miss work (although I can’t really say I “miss” it), go through airport security and then you find out that the girl, or guy (apparently now it’s ok to make girls travel for first dates) doesn’t look anything like what you can be attracted to, that, is an unreasonable amount of stress to put on someone. If they saw a picture first, it’s a whole lot easier for everyone.
2. Even when the guy and girl live in the same city, dating is not easy and takes up a lot of time and money. Having to say no to someone after a date b/c of looks, takes just as much toll on a guy/girl as being told no, by the other party (at least it should). Again, if they saw a picture first, it’s a whole lot easier for everyone.
I’m not saying looks are the most important thing, or that you can tell everything about someone from a picture. I am saying that it is an important factor and you can tell from a picture if someone’s looks are not at all what you like. I hate asking for pictures (just asked for one for the first time) and I don’t much like giving out my own picture, but, at least for me, it’s a whole lot better than the alternative.
squeak: I have to disagree with you, there are reasons it’s easier to read on the ipad, aside from how close i may be holding it. In general it’s easier to read on Apple products b/c of the fonts and graphics technology they use. Also, the brightness on Apple’s mobile products is better than on most monitors.
I have an iPad and it’s very useful when traveling, I don’t use it much at home though. I find it easier to read text on than most computer screens and better than the last version of the kindle I saw (might not have been the newest one). Also the Hebrew apps made by Rusty Brick are incredible (although I can’t see using it in a shul).
I’m pretty sure that the chillul Hashem of adults being caught providing alcohol to minors, minors getting arrested for possession of alcohol and adults getting arrested for public intoxication is worse than holding of a psak of a lesser shiur. Also for those of you who think there’s a difference between “kids at risk” and your son who’s the best boy in the top yeshiva, you really need to pull your heads out of the sand.
“(The law allows underage people to drink if their parents allow it.)”
I’m not a lawyer so I’m not going to give legal advice, in the state I live in a father (not frum) was arrested for giving his son a Mike’s Hard Lemonade at a baseball game. He didn’t even know it had alcohol in it and he temporarily lost custody of his kids. Granted this was an extremely weird case but you should be careful, not all states have the same laws.
“I cannot believe I read those words on a Jewish website. Pretty and thin!? Since when is that THE factor that makes or breaks a potential shidduch!?”
First of all, you should read the other comments before jumping to conclusions like that. Specifically one comment said about a quiet girl “There is nothing wrong with her, she is thin, pretty, nice to talk to, she has a job and is in school.”.
All I was saying is that I don’t believe that guys are turning down pretty, thin girls b/c they’re quiet. Since when is noise level “THE factor that makes or breaks a potential shidduch”? I was not saying that looks should be the most important thing to them, but yes, attraction is important.
itiswhatitis: I don’t know, personally if I knew beforehand that the girl was quiet, I would be prepared to try to get her to open up. I have a hard time believing that if the girl is pretty and thin, guys would not give her time to get comfortable.
I have a hard time believing that boys would turn down a girl, before a date, b/c she’s quiet. I’m guessing that’s their mothers doing. If the girl is quiet on the date, that’s a different story. Most people would probably describe me as a quiet guy (I’m really not, just a bit reserved) but when I go on a date, I force myself to be outgoing. It’s not easy but if you’re not going to do that, can you really blame someone for not wanting to go out with you?
Ben Levi: Of course it’s not good to have unfiltered access to the internet in your house. If you’re going to have the internet it should be in a public part of the house, where anyone can walk in at any time and preferably it should be filtered. I don’t think anyone is going to argue with that and we’ve been hearing this almost ad nauseum.
What you say about drinking that it “may cause damage or may not.” is ridiculous. Anyone who is not drunk on purim has witnessed numerous examples of damage caused by people in the name of mesorah. The chillul Hashem caused by kids getting drunk and having to go to the hospital, getting arrested, causing damage to people or property is enormous. The physical danger and possibility for chillul Hashem is reason enough to speak out against it. The reason people are more outspoken about drinking than about the internet is probably because the drinking is public and everyone sees it where as the internet problems are private and not seen by everyone.
AZ, your summary of what she’s saying makes sense it’s all the other stuff she put in there that I don’t understand.
Tzippi, you said “if the date involved a plane ticket, the parents are in their rights to see if it’s in the ballpark.” I inferred from this that the parents are paying. Why else would the need for a plane ticket be relevant?
“if the date involved a plane ticket, the parents are in their rights to see if it’s in the ballpark. (Yes, I know. Shidduchvision!)”
Of course they do, even if it doesn’t involve a plane ticket. Checking if it’s in the ballpark is not the same as asking if this is the best possible match. I guess I’m living in a different world, one where if I had to ask my parents to pay for a plane ticket I probably wouldn’t consider myself ready to get married.
haifagirl, I’m sure she wasn’t saying that parents should decide who their children should marry. Part of the problem I have with what she wrote is the wording, you’re not “choosing” a spouse for your child you are merely suggesting a possible match for them to decide on, or at least that’s how it should be. The way she wrote it sounds like the children have no responsibility for their own actions. Also IMO suggesting that parents be more selective in who they let their children date is not a good idea.
Sounds like an accurate description of our shidduch system to me.
I find this part to be troubling, should parents be choosing a mate for their children? I don’t have a problem with parents finding their children dates but that’s a far cry from choosing a mate for them. I don’t think the problem is that parents aren’t being selective enough, quite the opposite actually. It sounds to me like the problem is that the children are still children and not adults.
It’s hard to recommend something without knowing the makeup of your family and what they’re interested in but there are a few of the many possibilities.
Empire State Building: Observations Deck, Simulator Ride (I’m not sure if this is still around), also has a kosher pizza shop.
Ice Skating: Central Park, Bryant Park and Rockefeller Center
Statue of Liberty
Lots of Museums and Art Galleries (not all family friendly)
Lots of parks, central park alone can take up an entire day
Shopping, I wouldn’t recommend actually buying anything in Manhattan but there are lots of cool stores
jphone, I wasn’t arguing with anything you said, I was just making the point that just as there should be no stigma involved with going to college, there should also be no stigma associated with not going to college. The only thing I don’t agree with you on is about not wanting girls to start a family until they are 21+, I don’t think it helps anyone to keep girls 18-21 from trying to get married. Everyone should start dating when they are ready, IMO we focus way too much on age.
jphone, it’s not only those with family businesses that can get by without a college education, there are lots of ways to make a living. I happen to think that college is good for most people but not all and there should not be a negative attitude towards those that don’t go to college, they aren’t necessarily uneducated. I don’t think it’s fair to the girls to make them wait a few years and go through even more education, they are already far more educated than most of the boys. Why not have the boys start some type of college/work program straight after high school so they will be ready at a younger age?
Oomis, I agree with you, the problem I have is the close-mindedness on both sides. It doesn’t matter if someone went to college or not, what matters is that they are educated in some way and have a plan to support their family.
Oomis1105: I didn’t say education wasn’t important, of course we need jewish doctors, lawyers, etc. What I am saying is that for a girl to only go out with a guy who is college educated is foolish, going to college doesn’t make you educated any more than going to the Mir makes you a masmid. I work with a lot of people who are college educated and the majority of them are barely holding on to their jobs, of course they probably wouldn’t even have a job if they didn’t go to college so college is good for most people. I fail to see how not going to college has hurt me, except in the narrow minded opinions of some college educated people. I’ve known from a young age what I want to do and I’ve educated myself in the areas that I need to be educated in. IMO going to college, unless I made my parents pay for it, would have hurt me. I also don’t believe it’s a coincidence that so many billionaires dropped out of school and that the average net worth of forbes 400 members without a college degree is higher than those with college degrees. If people want to look down on me for not going to college, that’s ok, I expect to be too busy counting my money to care.
Jphone: You may be right, most of the girls are in schools like Touro which is a whole different situation than typical non-jewish colleges. I really don’t think it’s necessary for the girls to get more educated, the boys need to have some responsibilities. Honestly to me education is not very important when looking for a girl, in some ways I even see too much education as a negative. I may be biased b/c I never went to college and I hate when I hear that a girl is looking for a college educated guy. I know a lot of college educated guys and IMHO I’m better off than most of them in both general knowledge and financially.
I’m not directing this at any particular person, b/c I’ve seen many posters do this BUT when arguing about college it doesn’t help to spell it wrong, there is no A in College.
aries2756: What you’re saying makes so much sense, what I don’t understand is how we ever got to a point that all of these things are not the norm.
jewishandworking22: I agree 100%, I started working right out of high school 7 years ago and it helped me more than any school possibly could have. I do sometimes wish I would have gone to E”Y for a year long all expense paid vacation (I know some people actually go to learn) I could say that I was too mature to take advantage of my parents like that but the truth is I just wasn’t smart enough (or they were too smart) to con them into it.
jewishandworking22: Good idea in theory, I think the problem is that they’re not mature enough when they finish high school to want to go to college or work especially considering the alternative of getting everything handed to them. Also college is not for everyone, I’ve never gone and hopefully never will have to go, but that’s a whole different conversation.
jphone: It seems to me that every single girl is taking some type of college courses, I don’t think the stigma of girls going to college exists anymore. Even if I’m wrong about that won’t sending the girls to more school only increase the maturity gap between boys and girls?
I don’t think there is a short term way to make boys mature at a younger age. You can’t really say that making boys think seriously about marriage will make them mature, at least not if they’re going to be supported by their wife and/or in-laws. I don’t think pushing them to get married younger is a very good idea. One point that has been made in a few of the previous posts is that people mature when they have to. With that in mind parents and schools should find ways to put the boys in situations where they have to mature. I don’t know exactly how to do that but I’m pretty sure that sending them to E”Y for a year with unlimited funds is not the answer.
AZ: I’m fine with making an effort to make more close in age shidduchim as long as they don’t stop suggesting shidduchim that are not so close in age. Age should not be the deciding factor in suggesting a shidduch, it should be secondary to the important things. In other words if you have two similar girls that could be a match for a guy, recommend the one closer in age first but if the younger girl is a better match for him don’t ignore it b/c of age. Make sense?
AZ: Thank You but it did sound like aries2756 was saying that people should not redt shidduchim that are not close in age. Also you give me too much credit, I say age is not all that important but all else being the same I would prefer a girl who was 21 over one who was 24 so I guess I’m part of the problem.
“Here is one of the problems and it is well known. Boys still only want to go out with 18 year old girls. Even though they are 25. They still want to go out with the new crop of seminary returnees”
I disagree, first of all I don’t think there are many boys 25 and older who will ONLY go out with girls just getting back from seminary. Sure to some extent guys want younger girls and that’s not only b/c they’re shallow. I think it’s great to try to set up shidduchim that are close in age but I don’t think it’s fair to tell me that b/c I’m a 25 year old boy I should only go out with girls that are 23 or older and if I want to go out with a younger girl I must be shallow. I’m not very particular about the age of girls I go out with, I don’t want to be stereotyped b/c of my age so I try not to do the same to the girls. I don’t think age is all that important, the most mature girl I dated was also the youngest and the oldest girl I dated acted the most immature. My point is that you can’t script shidduchim, things are not always how you see them and if you try to force things to be a certain way you may cause a bigger “crisis”.
I once brought a girl to meet my parents after 5 dates, at the girl’s request, and I can’t say I would recommend it to anyone else. The problem was not b/c my parents were putting her through the ringer, they trust me to decide if a girl is for me or not. The difference between boys and girls meeting perspective in-laws in my opinion is that boys are usually not looking for anything in their in-laws they only care about the girl. On the other hand girls (at least some of them) have an idea in their head of exactly how their married life should be and how everything is going to be perfect so when they feel a little uncomfortable when meeting their possible future in-laws it’s a much bigger deal to them.
“Where is he taking her on a date that is could cost $250 for gas and tolls?????”
Sometimes the boy has to travel, not everyone lives in the same place. You can argue about the individual costs but the bottom line is dating is expensive for the boys (some of us actually have to use our own money).
AZ: I actually wrote my comment before yours was visible in this topic. It’s currently not accepted as necessary to pay the shaddchan after three dates. Therefore if you do pay them you are likely to get better service from them. If you want to say that everyone should pay the shaddchan after three dates it would be different. I’m not particularly against the idea but I don’t think it would work b/c most other people would be against it. Also what I was thinking about which side would pay if it broke off is that maybe the side doing the breaking off should have to pay $300. I know if a girl that I went out with more than three times decided she didn’t want to go out again (assuming I did) it would be bad enough without having to pay another $150.
I would not have a problem paying a shaddchan for their efforts even if it doesn’t work out in the end. I think it’s kind of like leaving a tip, you get better service the next time. However if you require it you’re going to keep some people from using your services which is a disservice to your “customers”. If you do charge, who would have to pay, both sides or the side that breaks it off?
jewishandworking22: Just b/c the guy is 25 that doesn’t mean he’s dating 25 year old girls. Personally I would love to be able to talk to the girls I date honestly without a third party to confuse things. I was just saying that I think it’s the girls (at least until they’ve been dating for a while) that would have a problem with communicating directly. This is probably the one thing that has bothered me the most in dating b/c I’ve had a girl say no through a third party without giving me a real reason or even discussing it with me, this was after we had stopped using a third party to set up the dates and that was not an easy thing to deal with to say the least.
jewishandworking22: I don’t have any problem with you approaching girls on your own, whatever works for you. The reason people deal with a Shaddchan has nothing to do with not being mature, in more yeshivish circles approaching a girl directly is typically not done and if you’re looking for that type of girl you’re not going to find her by walking up to her on the street. The fact is that this system works for a lot of people so there’s no reason to completely change it.
oomis1105: How many girls do you think would be comfortable explaining to a boy why they don’t want to go out again after just one or two dates? I’m guessing not that many, at least until they’ve been dating for a few years.
‘While I’ve heard of Shidduchim working where all were not in agreement about the Shidduch, it usually causes problems down the line.”
Sure, it’s great for the parents to give advice and of course you want to approve of the person that you are thinking of marrying but that’s not the same thing as saying the parents should find that person for you.
I would actually take it a step further and say that parents should have nothing to do with a shidduch during the dating process. Unless of course they are being asked to financially support the couple. I don’t have anything against parents and I value my parents advice but I don’t think they can be objective. However, I don’t think there’s a specific age that singles need to start dealing with shaddchanim directly, it should be whenever they are ready. Using myself as an example, I am 25 but I have not been dating for long and I don’t have a lot of experience, so I am a little unsure of what I’m doing when I deal directly with a shaddchan. That said I realize that I need to take things into my own hands if I want to get married so I do it anyway. My point is that it’s not age that’s important it’s experience and state of mind, if you’re not ready you’re not ready.
To those of you saying the girl is better off without this guy, how is what you’re doing (judging someone based on a family member) any different than what the boy’s mother did? I think most guys would be surprised to find out what their mothers say on their behalf when it comes to shidduchim. I do think it’s crazy that they would say no to a shidduch for this reason but everyone has their own crazy things they do.
“Boys can say no for any reason and get away with it.
If it was the other way around it is much less likely the girl would say no.”
So you say but in reality girls say no to shidduchim for crazy reasons all the time (speaking from my own experience). I think it’s too simplistic to blame every shidduch problem on age gap.
Happy Girl: I don’t really consider that an incentive, I wouldn’t want to go to a singles event and definitely wouldn’t want them to beg me. I also think it’s wrong that the girls have to pay and the guys get in free, I think that kind of sets the tone for the whole event.
AZOI.IS: I appreciate the idea and I’ll give it some thought, I’ve always been a little wary of signing up for internet dating sites (not that there’s anything wrong with them). It may be a while, I’m somewhat preoccupied for the next couple weeks.
I don’t think I would send my personal info to someone from a message board before I found out who they were in real life. I do think it’s odd though that YW won’t let you choose to give out your own info, what’s up with that mods?
FROM THE RULES:
2 – Personal email addresses or websites will not be published. Posts that ask others to meet them at “Plonis” will not be approved. Should a blogger continuously try to pry personal information from others, he/she will be booted from YWN
One user name per person. Period! If there is a need to drop an existing user name and adopt a new user name (e.g. personal information has been compromised), let us know so that we do not unitentionally “out” you.
AZOI.IS: I don’t know if the meaning of your post was taken away by what was edited. In any case my Shidduch resume is very simple, it has my personal and family info and my references, you really can’t tell much from it. If your thinking from my last post that I probably am picky and make lots of demands, that’s not the case, you won’t find a list of approved dress sizes,styles or anything like that.
AZOI.IS: I’m about 5’9″ and I don’t have a weight problem. I’m not MO, I have a full time job and I’m not looking for a girl to support me so I guess I do have a “unique personality”. I don’t think there’s anything about me that’s hard to fit and frankly if there is that wouldn’t say much about our shidduch system. I will probably not deal with that shadchan again but that experience also makes me reluctant to deal with another shadchan.
I know that many shidduchim only happened b/c of some coercion in the beginning but I think it’s usually in a case where someone says something like “i don’t want to go out right now” or “not with a girl from brooklyn” or something stupid like that. The problem in my case is more difficult than that, I didn’t ask for a picture and the shadchan didn’t provide one but I ended up seeing a picture of her and I would be embarrassed to walk in public with this girl. I usually ignore the pictures b/c you can’t always tell much from them but in this case there’s no way it’s just a bad picture. Of course I can’t tell that to the shadchan b/c he’s too close to her and it wouldn’t be nice anyway. Even if I could say what the problem was I know that I’d be made to feel like I’m doing something wrong, being too picky or shallow, which is not true about me at all. It’s very frustrating, especially when all I hear is how easy it is for the guys.
AZOI.IS: If there are so many great girls out there and so few guys maybe you can tell me why some shadchanim push guys to go out with girls who they say they are not interested in? I had a shadchan send me information on a girl he knew personally, I had someone look into her and I found out some information that made me not want to go out with her. The information I found out was not something I could share with the shadchan so I just said “I looked into it and I don’t think she’s for me” his response was basically “yes, she is”. I think this kind of behavior is what keeps guys away from shadchanim and if there are so many girls out there does it make sense that a shadchan would have to try to force a particular girl on me?
“If someone writes, for example, sales it could mean that the boy has a college degree in buisness or finance… yet, it could also mean that the person never went to college at all.”
IMO, it does not matter, I never took any college courses and I work with many people who have college degrees. Not only do I make more money than most of them, I also know more about the work we do and in general do a better job than they do. I am confident that if you were to compare my work to that of my college educated contemporaries you would believe I was better educated than them. The reason for this is that I had good role models growing up and I saw that a good work ethic and desire to succeed is all that is needed to be successful (provided that you are fairly intelligent). Why would you say that college education is important when looking for a shidduch? I personally prefer not to go out with girls who are college educated (it usually wouldn’t be a deciding factor) b/c they tend to look down on people like me and I have a general disdain for education.
“Where are the boys??? MARRIED!!!!!!”
HOPEFULLY every time a boy gets married a girl gets married as well. I understand how the age gap crisis supposedly works but I think it’s wrong to look at a shidduch between a couple that are not close in age as part of the problem.
As far as singles events go, I agree with Justin and I have no interest in ever attending one. It seems to me that there are plenty of single boys out there and that the Shaddchanim are just not doing a good job at dealing with them. If the boys get desperate they will go back to the Shadchan but not if they have other options.
“As far as getting more modern as you get older: Again, it does not and should not happen to everyone but it does happens to enough people to be an eye opener and become something to ponder about.”
Sure some singles get more modern as they get older, in my case people observing me (without really knowing me) might think I’ve gotten more modern. I watch more movies and TV than I did when I was younger and other things like that but as a whole as I’ve gotten older and more mature I would say I’ve become a better person and Jew than I used to be. I also have a lot of friends who were more modern when we were younger and became more frum as they grew up. It goes both ways.
“Perhaps (doubtfully) there’s a solution out there…?”
There is a very simple solution, do what makes you happy. Family and friends are important but if you live your life to please them you will be miserable.
Shidduch Solution: It’s good that you are willing to work with Shaddchanim, that was not clear to me from looking through your website. The other suggestion I have is to add some more detailed questions so you can get a better idea of what someone is really like. As far as the difference between SYAS and Shidduch World goes, from browsing the two websites it seems that neither of them allow singles to connect without a Shaddchan. I’m sure there are other differences but they seem like fairly similar sites.