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Joseph- Have you ever spoken to Rav Dovid on the topic? Also, can you point me to the third teshuva?
Joseph- 1) Thank you for quoting. Is there a third Teshuva? You said their were 3 teshuvos. 2) “During Rav Moshe’s lifetime the modern attacked him for being an extremist. After his passing they’ve attempted to reinterpret history and claim Rav Moshe ruled the exact opposite of what he’s written.” Are you saying that Rav Dovid Feinstein is attempting to reinterpret history and saying the opposite of what Rav Moshe said? I have heard it from many reliable sources that this is what Rav Dovid Feinstein said (that really his father held it was muttar) including Rav Herschel Shachter. I’m not saying that it is muttar (many poskim Assured including the Chazon Ish) but I just speaking about daas Rav Moshe on the question.
“Rav Moshe says in three, separate, strongly worded psakim that shaking hands with women in business is clearly assur.”
Joseph- that is false. Rav Moshe is very ambiguous and seems to go back and forth in his Teshuvos. Rav Dovid Feinstein has said on many occasions that Rav Moshe held handshaking was muttar but didn’t write in a teshuva because he didnt want to be attacked for another Kula. (he was already attacked for many others).
Joseph- “So he paskens farkert from the S”A.” – As does Rav Moshe Shterbuch who is unable to learn S”A as well as you. He paskens that Bzman Hazeh you should teach them torah because of “eis Laasos” (which is exactly what rav Solivetchik said).
aconcernedima- There is a wide rage in YU. There are very yeshivish guys in YU who basically would have the same Hashkafa as this girl and those who aren’t. There definitely is not some vast schism, as technical21 seems to be saying, between YU guys in their halachic and hashkafic approach. It depends on the guy and my guess is that if he is redt to a beis yaakov girl than he is from the yeshivishe guys of YU who would have nearly the identical hashkafa.
Joseph- you must have much better eyes than me because I am unable to read the “signature” of rav Shteinman here. How do you know he signed it?
DaMoshe- you are obviously quite confused about a lot of stuff. Firsty, you don’t know what chassidim held. Secondly, you don’t know what the Gra held. Thirdly, you don’t understand the machlokes. If you want to acutally understand the machlokes listen to this shiur The Chasidus of the Baal Shemtov and The Opposition of The GRA. you can search for it in google. its by rav yaakov shapiro.
DaMoshe- actually the Satmar rebbe himself said that today’s chassidim have very little to do with the original derech of the baal Shem tov.
In the old litvishe and European yeshiva’s and the old shtetl the word Frum had a negative connotation. As other people above said, it was originally used to mean only externally religious. That the reason it is now sometimes used negatively because that’s how it was originally used.”The highest order of compliment” is erhlach not frum.
Very interesting article. I do not think, though, that it changes anything I said about Agudah. The Machlokes (which BTW it appears there are more Gedolim on the Rav Miller side) is only about voting. Not doing Chanifa and honoring them at dinners.
Daasyochid- Not true. It is not just Rav Avigdor Miller’s shitta who I am following. Rav Aharon Kotler was also of the same view as Rav Miller on these Inyanim. Along with them there is Rav Isser Zalman Metzler, Rav Yichezkel Sarna,Rav yechiel michel tukachinsky, and Rav Yuda Finkel. I have a Kol Korah which is widely available where all the Gedolim previously mentioned (including Rav Aharon Kotler zatzal) all say that it is an Issur Gamur to vote for any candidate who supports things which the Torah is opposed to (like Toevah).
Leaving aside voting, Agudah honors people like Cory Booker to speak at the dinner who is one of the biggest Toevah supporter and they honor (or used to honor) people like Shelly Silver who is responsible for the abortion and Toevah in NYC.
DaasYochid- Yeah, the Agudah who have people vote for candidates who shove these things down our throats and eventually lead to the Supreme Court justices agreeing with this Tumah. (Not that the OU is good on these things either)
mik5- not sure thats what the Chazon Ish says. He says anyting above the elbow not below it.
Mik5- Not saying CH”V to be meikel to shake hand but… the first source for that story with the Chazon Ish (that shaking hands is Yehareg Vaal Yaavor) is a very frummy biography of the Chazon Ish in Hebrew written by his Talmidim. Even in this biography the footnote says that many times the Chazon Ish used the lashon of “Yehareg Vaal Yaavor” to make a point and didn’t hold Lmaaseh it is Yehareg Vaal Yaavor. In terms of frum Jews shaking hands with excuses, although Rav Moshe did say that it is very hard to be Meikil so no one should actually do it, there were many great Rabbonim (from the Yekke community, mostly) who did shake hands in a case where it would embarrass the lady.
mik5- I never said there is any need to stam be mekabel shabbos 30 minutes early. That is just my person practice because I feel that it helps one prepares one’s mind for shabbos (and Shayim Mikra).
I also have a great deal of respect for Rav Chaim Kanievsky and his Psakim but that does not mean that you always have to be Choshesh to everything he says (especially when my Rebbeim have told me otherwise and when) many gedolei h’achronim say its muttar.
Mik5- Looked up the Shmiras Shabbos Kehilchasa. He doesn’t seem to talk about the case that I said. I also wasn’t talking about a case where Mincha will run into Shkiah rather when one just wants stam to be Mikabel Shabbos early like 30 minutes that you can be mekabel the Issur Melocha and not the Kedusha. I’m not sure why the Shmiras Shabbos doesn’t bring it down but I heard it from Rav Nissan Kaplan from the Mir who learned by Kol Torah (rav Shlomo Zalman) and said it in his name.
Chazon Ish was against short sleeves and whenever someone with short sleeves goes to Rav Chaim Kanievsky he asks them if they don’t have enough money to buy long sleeves. This is based on the Mishna Berurah who seems to say (somewhere in the beginning of Siman Beis) that short sleeves for men are not tznius because most people have it covered. The Minhag is not like this because Bzman Hazeh many men go with there elbows uncovered. And yes it is true that Rav Moshe went with short sleeves.
Hakatan- I wasn’t comparing the two. I was saying that Rav Shach was big enough to speak against the Lubavitcher Rebbe while Mik5 is not. According to your logic am I allowed to say the Rambam was kalei hadaas and all he had were Svaras of little kids. Its not me saying it…its the Raavad. The point is, yes the Raavad and Rav Shach could say what they said but that does not necessarily allow me to say and repeat it.
mil5- Yes, Rav Shach could speak against another Rav…you can’t. And, no offence, you (and all of us) are less than nothing compared to Gedolim such as the Satmar Rav who davened after Zman Teffila (He knew the Halacha). Not saying certain Hanhagos of gedolim are for the masses to follow but to say that these Gedolei Olam weren’t “great” takes tremendous Chutzpah.
mik5- Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach z’l said to just be mikabel the issur Melocho of shabbos and not the Kedusha and there for you can daven mincha. I have heard from rebbeim in the Mir that this is the best thing to do.
DaasYochid- Thats not the reason as the Mishnah Berurah says we are not Meikel like that Rama. I agree it is not Poshut but rov of the Poskim are Mattir based on what I said(some are Mitzareif mitzvah lav lehenos nitnu).
“So you’re being mattir all amira l’akum where the nochri wants to succeed at his job? ?? ????? ??? ???.”
Kind of. Have you ever been to a Shul on Shabbos that that the lights are off at night and back on in the morning? The reason the Poskim mattir davening in such a shul is that the Goy is doing it for his job not for the Jews.
shkoyach Joseph, there is not a single Posek in the world who is maskim or holds like Rav Moshe on this one.
Joseph- Is rav Chaim your posek anymore than rav Sheinberg or rav Shmuel Aurbach (both of whom say minyan is better)?
I know I’m a little late to the discussion but I will just point out that Rav Moshe Shterbuch paskens that B’zman Hazeh due to Eis La’asos it is a miztva to teach girls torah.
Zev7- Go for it! You will have the tremendous zechus of being Marbitz Torah. Also, if you do it PLS post a “link” (if allowed) here.
Hakatan- “wrote that Rabbi Soloveichik “forgot things that talmidei bais rabban know”
Doesn’t the Gemorah say this about Dovid Hamelech? (Gemorah Brachos).
Hakatan- Look inside Michtavim Umaamarim. Rav Shach although completely disagreeing with Rav Solivetchik still calls him “hagaon Harav…”. Also, regarding Rav Kook it is well known that the Chofetz Chaim walked out of the Agudah Convention when they started speaking against Rav Kook, and also, Rav Kook was the Mesader Kiddushin of Rav Elyashiv and rav elyashiv once yelled at a guy who was speaking against Rav Kook.
Joseph- You might…but he was asking for a Mekor not what you find objectionable.
ubiquitin- the whole thing with Rashi being a winemaker is pretty sketchy. Meaning, there is little to no evidence to support that.
nolongersingle- Is it not rebelling against the nations by Kiryas Yoel annexing land (there are lots of articles about this on ywn)? My point is that Satmar says that Zionism is rebelling against the nations but Im saying that although it may be, they are no better.
KJ Chusid- The protest was a tremendous Chillul Hashem. You guys clapped every time Obama’s name was mentioned. Also, PLS explain how it is not Hisgares B’umos to make this protest even though the NYPD asked you guys not to go? (Also, isn’t having kiryas Yoel “Hisgares B’umos”–rebelling against the nations?).
Why would you want to get into see him?
sam2- There are people who hold like that. There is a very well known Posek and Magid Shiur in a very chasuve Yeshiva in E’Y who I have heard say this on many times. He even said that Rav Chaim Kanievsky wanted to say like that but Rav Shlomo Zalman said CH’V to say like that.
YYBC- “Both of them have forgotten that in krias shema it says “v’asafta deganecha”, the gemara’s source that people should work. In fact, the last mishnah in kiddushin is dedicated to choosing a proper profession.”
-See Gemorah Brachos “Bzman sheinam oisim rezoinoi shel makoim” regarding that posuk. Mishnah Berurah Paskens yechidim like Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai (about that gemorah).
– Did you also look at the Rabbi Nehoirai part of that mishnah in kiddushin?
Rew- please read the posters name, again.
It’s actually not completely crazy to say that one should not have Milchigs by meleva Malka (I cannot say I’m makpid but…).Because the only gemorah that speaks about Meleva Malka doesnt say to wash/eat bread. It says that a certain Amora would Shecht an animal an eat it on Motzei Shabbos. So the only mekor in the gemorah is with Fleishigs.
I certainly hope they are not Jews because if they’re not that may save them from the great amount of Gehhenim that will be bestowed upon them.
Avi k- Please look up the piece by Rav Shterbuch I mentioned. Also, the primary descendants of the Gra today, for example, Rav Shternbuch, are anti- zionist so that is good enough for me.
3) Well, look up the sources from the previous page you said you would look up.
Avi K- Maybe it wasn’t a slip and you were referring to R’ Hillel Mishkelov as R’ Hillel Rivlin. I thought it was apropos because the person who probably wrote the Kol Hator was Shlomo Zalman Rivlin so it seemed apropos that you had mixed them up. I see now that you did that on purpose. How about responding to the rest of my points? I know you must have run out of “proofs” when all you can manage is a unfunny and feeble attempt to insult my capitalization.
Avi K- Just looked back at your post and saw your slip up, where you wrote the kol hator by “Hillel rivlin” it seems very apropos and makes a lot of sense.
Avi K- Don’t try to say that Ch’v the Gra was a zionist. It is clear the the Kol Hator was not written by Rav Hillel Mishkelov. Read Rav Shternbuch’s 10 page thing on it which is printed in the back of one of the volumes of Teshuvos Vhanagos. Much of the “old” kol hator was written in modern hebrew, and in the Hakdamah Shlomo Zalman Rivlin himself says that we do not have the original manuscript. Anyway, the people who descend from the aliya of talmidei hagra are mostly Neturei Kartaniks so its hard to say the Gra held of the ideas in the kol hator.
Patur Aval Assur–
1) as you well know that is a straw man right there. You were saying that within the Maharal you can read that it means Gezeirah not a halacha. I brought you proof that when the maharal uses the word Gezeirah like he does in this context it for sure does NOT mean that it is not halacha. He saying the Hashem was Gozer this issur and if we do not keep it, r’l, what could happen.
2) Not sure I quite understand the Rav Shlomo Kluger. Why was shevet Ephraim punished then? Anyway this is only talking about the Shevua of Dechikas haketz which was the only one in Mitzraim. But by us, (i.e our galus), we have an additional shevua of shelo yaaleh K’choma.
3) I have seen what R’ Kasher wrote. To be respectful lets leave it at that they are shver.
Patur Aval Assur– Yes he does say it is Yahareg vaal yaavor for us “?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???, ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???”
Also, your diyuk in the Maharal about him calling it Gezeros makes no sense. He is using the word Gezeirah like when we say “chazal were gozer” it still means there is an Issur. This is just like where the Maharal in Erchin says that tzaraas comes onto people who separate themselves from the community therefore the torah was GOZER on him that he has to separate himself from the community. Is that also a gezeirah not a halacha? When chazal were gozer not to take medicine on shabbos because we will come to do Tochen is that also a gezeirah not halacha?
Avi K- “The deal is off Because the Goyim Violated Their part of the bargain”
1) Didnt Mitzrayim oppress Jews? If so according to your logic why were Shevet Ephraim punished?
2) The Medrash Eicha says clearly that the Romans were violated their part of the oaths but it also says that Bar Kochva was punished for violating the oaths.
3)The Rambam in Iggeres Teiman is writing to Jews in Teiman who are undergoing “violent persecution” at that time but still warns them not to violate the oaths.
4) Maharal clearly says that even in life threatening situation not to violate the oaths.
“The Goyim Gave Permission us so it’s not Rebellion (Rav Meir Simch)”
1) The Ramban in Maamar Hageula says that the reason more Jews didnt go to E’y bzman Coresh was because they didnt know about the Nevuah that they were supposed to go up so they thought it was a violation of the oaths. Obviously we see that even with permission (real permission) from goyim it is still a violation of the shevuos.
2) Rav yonosan Eybashitz and the Yefas To’har both say explicitly that even with permission is a violation of the shevuos
3) The only source for this is maybe the Avnie Nezer..But 1) The minchas Elazar said that this Avnei Nezer go against everything the Avnei Nezer said publically so it may be a forgery. 2) Why would we Pasken like the Avnie nezer against the Maharal, Yefas Toah, Rav Yonosan Eybashtz et al
4) There was no permission from the Goyim!peacefully means without resistance and fighting. There was a war! many Jews were killed that is not peacful. Also, what the UN says doesnt make it permission. By that standard you must agree with all the anti-israel stuff the UN says today. By any means, there is no comparison to Coresh where there was no fighting.
Patur Aval Assur- Please! saying it is ya’hareg va’al yaavor means he holds of them! You cannot read it in the way you are saying.
Patal Aval Assur– though their are mistakes in that list I am partly responsible for putting that list together which somehow got to Frumteens. Also, look up the Maharil in Netzach Yisroel chapter 24 here it is: ??? ????? ???? ?????[?] ????? ?? ???, ?? ?? ?? ??????? ?????, ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????, ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ????. ???? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ???, ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???????? ????, ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???. ??? ????, ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????. ???? ?? ????, ?? ????? ‘????? ?? ???’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???, ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???, ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????. ?? ???? ?? ???, ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ?????. ???? ????? ‘????? ?? ???’, ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???, ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???. ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????, ??? ????? ??:
He says that what must keep the Shevuos L’halacha even under threat for life (i.e it is Yaahareh vaal yaavor)
I agree that the rashbash says there is a Mitzvah on the individual of Yishuv E’y but he does hold of the issur of Ya’aleh K’choma. The Rambam you quoted shows the Rambam warning us of the terrible consequences that will happen from violating the Shevuos obviously even if he holds they are not Halacha (which is not pashut) still he holds they are a terribe idea.
Ivory- you obviously did not read anything I wrote where I had plenty of sources backing what I was saying. All I was saying in the last sentence was that the last 3 points AviK made I would go through later.
Avi K: the amount of Sheker spread in you post is unbelievable. I will respond to your points
The Shalosh Shevuot are a halachic non-starter.
1. They are aggadata not halacha. In fact, none of the codes (Mishna Tora, Tur, Shulchan Aruch, Rema) mention them nor do the Rif, the Rosh or the Nossei Keilim.In fact, Ramban (Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “Forgot”) states that there is a Tora mitzva to conquer EY is our time.
2, In his introduction to Sefer Etz Chaim, Rav Chaim Vital writes that they were only for 1,000 years.
To be sure not everything Rav CHaim Vital says is Halacha. BUT he does not even say this. Rav Chaim Vital quotes the Zohar in bereishis which is talking about Hashem’s oath to keep us in Galus will only be for 1,000 years (the zohar say after 1000 years is because people did not do teshuva). Not talking about the Shalosh Shevuos.
There are lots of refutations to your last 3 oaths I just dont have time right now.
Mod42: That is a big machlokes Achronim. Not pashut.