Joseph

Phillip,
“Nope”

If you admit that a Jew doesn’t need a psak to take a position for all the other things I listed, why do you differently suffrage based on gender versus suffrage based on age?

Do you consider misogynists those who opposed granting the suffrage to women prior to 1920; whether lawmakers who voted against it or citizens who opposed it on principle? Why do you differentiate the opposition to suffrage prior to passage versus opposition to it after passage?

Do you similarly consider legalized abortion a fait accompli that must not be opposed following Roe v. Wade? One being declared a constitutional right 46 years ago versus the other 99 years ago makes one reversible but the other irreversible?

I do.

What is Litvishkeit?

flowers: I explained it earlier. In Torah Judaism and in the natural state in humanity even among the gentiles, the menfolk make the worldly decisions for outside the home while the womenfolk make the household decisions.

The proof that the changes failed is the horrible mess in the wider world that we see in regards to household relations between spouses in our unfortunate times.

LOT: Coincidentally both my mother and wife agree with my position. But in either event that is irrelevant towards the merits of the points in this discussion, which I’ve explained on both a Torah and rational basis.

Ubiquitin: No. The point is that virtually all poskim are against toeiva marriage. Both before it was legalized and after. But whereas you’d find gedolei rabbonim encouraging opposition to toeiva marriage prior to its legalization, in the hope that it could be stopped, that became less so once it passed and appears very unlikely to be reversed anytime soon. Of course they still oppose it, just as much as before, but since they think now it’s almost an unwinnable fight in the current environment, they don’t extend their limited energy fighting it.

Phil, first you falsely said I couldn’t provide a source from a posek, which I subsequently did (and can provide the maare mokom if you wish.) Now that you were forced down from your position you falsely say no contemporary posek is opposed.

Can you provide any contemporary poskim who rule that toeiva marriage must be illegal? Why would a posek today rule that, which is obvious, when no government will be taking their direction from poskim. Same with women’s suffrage. When it was relevant the Poskim went on the record saying it shouldn’t happen. Now that it’s happened and isn’t about to be reversed, it’s like arkaos.

As to your point that no one stops frum women from voting; of course. The issur was to grant the right in the first place. Once it was granted it’s foolish to throw out half your votes. If they didn’t have the right in the first place, as would be most appropriate, then it would be a non-issue. So, b’dieved, they vote. B’dieved in the sense that they must so that the frum community doesn’t lose half its voice, they must vote; even though ideally it shouldn’t have been a right in the first place.

When the British took over Palestine from the Turks they established an internal voting mechanism for the Jewish community. The old yishuv led by Rav Sonnenfeld ruled women shouldn’t vote, so the British authorities allowed the men’s votes from the old yishuv to be counted twice instead of their women voting. Later, when this arrangement was no longer available (I’m not sure if that lasted until 1948 or some time earlier) the rabbonim in the old yishuv reluctantly permitted the women to vote in other not to discard their voting influence.

In short, it would be most appropriate and ideal if they didn’t have the suffrage altogether. In Torah Judaism and in the natural state in humanity even among the gentiles, the menfolk make the worldly decisions for outside the home while the womenfolk make the household decisions. This was one of the primary reason for the opposition towards women’s suffrage by the rabbonim zt’l as well as the opposition to it that existed among gentiles, prior to the right being granted.

Ideally it would be reversed.

Phil, no need for you to be such a feminist troll. It’s okay if you’d recognize that feminism has been an all-around complete failure.