Joseph

akuperma, that wasn’t the question I posed to you. Please see my above comment addressed to you. (Six comments above this.)

lilmod: Please read Rav Shlomo Zalman’s reponse in its original letter. (It’s reprinted in the TE.) Your understanding of it is mistaken. He holds it is only to be done b’dieved in the sense that if it is unavoidable. i.e. a crowded street with women. Not to b’davka do it.

Additionally, the vast majority of poskim, both historic and contemporary, do not pasken to be meikel on this issue. The Shulchan Aruch rules it assur. If any posek would hold differently than the S”A he would openly state as such. The absence of a ruling mattiring what the S”A assured, is a clear indication that he holds it assur. The Gedolim in the days of the Shulchan Aruch and shortly thereafter have agreed to accept the psakim of the mechaber and the Rema as authoritative. The Shach writes that one cannot even claim “kim li” against a psak of the Shulchan Aruch. This is akin to accepting someone as your “Rebbi”, where you follow his psakim. This is the same thing that happened when, let’s say, Klal Yisroel decided that the period of Chazal has ended after the 7th generation of Amorayim (Mar Zutra, Mar bar Rav Ashi, etc), and nobody from here on in can add to the Gemora. There was no “halachah l’Moshe m’Sinai” that told us that the Gemora was sealed; it was the accepted reality told to us by our Gedolim. The same thing applies to accepting the Shulchan Aruch and Rema.

Furthermore, one cannot be meikel on an issue that S”A assurs simply because there is an opinion out there, even a valid one, that isn’t from his rebbi or posek, being meikel on an issue. Even if someone else will be insulted that you didn’t latch on to the kulah and you instead followed the halacha as the Shulchan Aruch paskens and as your rebbeim pasken.

Zionists scammed the Jews, but that is irrelevant to anything discussed here.

akuperma:

In a state that recognizes religious marriage ceremonies as a valid marriage, even in the absence of obtaining a state marriage license, what would they consider in the scenario that lesschumras described where a couple received a Get, and became halachicly divorced, but did not yet receive a legal divorce decree from the state courts, and one of the halachicly divorced spouses remarries in a Jewish marriage ceremony prior to receiving a state divorce?

Flatbusher, you’re 100% correct. It’s assur, for the reason you cited, for a Jew to be a judge on a non-Jewish court that judges Jews.

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/jew-becoming-a-lawyer-or-judge-halachic-problems

Zogt, in Rav Shlomo Zalman’s letter replying to the Tzitz Eliezer, RSZA says there’s reason to be meikel on this inyan today due to the conditions in the street today, with so many women in public unlike in the past, that it is often difficult to avoid the situation. But Rav Shlomo Zalman is clear it is a b’dieved, not a l’chatchila like some posters here are posturing.

YY, when do you *ever* need to put down the date of your civil marriage?

No silver ataro? Mamish ah shanda!

When Rav Moshe or the Satmar Rebbe or Rav Aharon Kotler were mesader kedushin, did the choson bother them afterwards to fill out the state marriage certificate? Do the gedolim today do the paperwork after they are mesader?

Syag, no one, absolutely no one, thinks rabbonim are “infallible”. So gofish’s implication in her question is a strawman.

gofish: Strawman. The gedolim are more likely to be right than you and your friends. And if you think you’re right, it is still more likely they’re right. And if it is a halachic issue, than you versus them isn’t even a contest.

The Bronx is crime-ridden.

You shouldn’t be joking or frivolous with guys.

Halacha is precisely the opposite. Halacha is men first. Halacha specifically states as such even when saving lives.

When a girl says “ladies first” to obtain priority for herself, she is a victim and perpetrator of the American and Western self-entitlement culture who subscribes to non-Jewish ideas and culture.

Why should a guy be any more inclined to open the car door for his date than he would open the car door for his younger or older sister? She, at least as much, ought to open the door for him.

CTL, you can give a CZ or moissanite, some of which would require an expert to differentiate from a real diamond. Friends and family wouldn’t know it isn’t a real diamond visually.

What happens if 100 people split the purchase of a CD, MP3, book or software program? The answer should be the same as to your question. (I’m pointing out this variation as it may help clarify the issue.)

If some music, book or software program is no longer offered for sale, you know that you would not have purchased it if you didn’t copy it, so there’s no issue of hasagas gvul. And as Avi pointed out, local copyright laws don’t provide copyrights forever. Additionally, copyright laws specifically permit copying for “fair use” even while the copyright is active.

Charlie: An ecclesiastical marriage does not necessary equate to a legal marriage under State law. So if a rabbi or priest performs a religious marriage, they are not necessarily purporting to have conducted a legal marriage that claims the parties are married under State law. Thus, performing a spiritual marriage in no way violates any statues prohibiting the performance of a marriage outside of State sanctioning, if the minister does not claim the ceremony connotes a legal marriage under State law.

The State does not, and cannot under the Constitution, regulate or preclude a religious ceremony or deed, including religious marriages. In fact, the rabbi performing the chupa v’kedushin does not even have to be authorized by the State to perform marriages, if he chooses not to seek such recognition.

Indeed, a few years ago the Federal Court in the State of Utah overturned Utah’s law against polygamy that, on the books, prohibited citizens from marrying multiple spouses under religious law without obtaining a State marriage license. (It was widely ignored by Fundamentalist Mormons for the last 100 years it was on the books until the Utah Attorney General charged one person a few years ago for violating that law, and he successfully defended himself by bringing the Constitutional challenge in Federal court.) It was overturned as an infringement of the First Amendment.

Btw, Charlie, on your other point you are also mistaken in asserting that judicial consent is rarely given to minors under 16 years of age to marry. In 2011 alone New York judges approved the marriages of a 14-year-old, a 15-year-old, another 15-year-old and another 15-year-old. In New Jersey between 1995 and 2012 178 marriages between ages 10 and 15 were approved by judges.

If your question is if the license can make the marriage effective as of the date of the chasuna, legally per the laws of the State, the answer to that depends on the law of whichever State you are marrying in. In New York and most States, you need to get the license prior to the marriage. In New York you need to get the license at least 24 hours before the marriage. The license is then valid to get married within 60 days from when the license was issued.

If you didn’t get the State marriage license prior to the marriage ceremony, you will need to use a later date (i.e. after the license was obtained) as the official date you got married under State law.

If your question is whether your kiddushin is valid if you do not get a marriage license, it is 100% valid and you are unquestionably halachicly married even if you never get a State marriage license.

If your question is whether State law requires you to obtain a marriage license if you get married under religious law, the answer is no. You are legally entitled to get married under religious law (i.e. chupa v’kiddushin) and choose to not get a State marriage license.

Some (but not all) States will consider you legally married if you marry under religious law, and reside together with your spouse, even if you never get a State marriage license.

You’re assuming your approach makes it more likely to result in Iran being less nuclear capable. Harassing your Congressman in the name of Israel, with your “Congressman-bashing article”, at this stage will result in no change in Iran’s nuclear capabilities. It, though, likely will result in creating ill-will for Jewish causes in Congress.

Person1, in your family do they have the same expectations from an 18 year old as from a 50 year old? If not, is the 18 year old not an adult?