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benig, would eating three hot dogs and buns two nights a week and pizza, fries and soda two other nights each week violate the mitzvah?
Can anyone here explain the differences between Chofetz Chaim boys and Brisker boys?
Abba: Because ?? ????? ????? ?? ???
That question only appeared after my yes response, so it was addressing the previous two questions.
Obviously I don’t know what the background of these interactions between the two of you, so take my question as a general one not an argument, but how do you know that he objectively wronged you and owes you a request for forgiveness rather than, perhaps, his perspective having some validity and perhaps you misunderstood him or even he gave you deserved mussar or tochacha?
A very recent example is there is a poster who believed in women first. After explaining the halachic concept of men first she subsequently took upon herself to defer to men in public and allowed the guys to board the bus first.
This is a real life consequential change directly resulting from some recent posts.
Riverdale.
Yes and Yes!!
j/k
Different times, different issues. Usually hashkafa and/or halacha.
Others have told me they came around to my posted view in the comments after having previously felt otherwise.
“In the course of a conversation with a teacher”
Maybe I was that teacher?!
j/k
One places Hashem above himself.
lilmod, do we prioritize our spouses over our Creator, Father and King?
Over the past year or two almost all Starbucks locations, including at airports and other smaller kiosks, have become full-service Starbucks stores offering non-kosher breakfast items, like bacon and turkey sandwiches.
Almost every Starbucks started selling prepared meat sandwiches, usually prepared in the store. Does this fact change the permissibility of buying their coffee in almost all Starbucks stores?
A halachicly invalid Get. There’s a large section in Shulchan Aruch dealing with such instances.
Loshon hora specifically is telling over negative information that is the truth.
And those that leave early to work from a minyan that is *not* the earliest minyan?
I agree with your analysis, including that in such a case he should give a Get, but don’t necessarily agree with your attribution of my assumptions. (And don’t worry about mechila. It isn’t necessary.)
I think “personality issues” are far more common than abuse issues in divorce cases. I think abuse is over described and over claimed, but claimed personality issues are much more numerous than even claimed abuse issues. I have those views from numerous conversations with rabbonim dealing with numerous divorces.
CTL, What you describe is a textbook case of a Get Me’usa described in the Shulchan Aruch. Any action at all taken by a non-Jewish court to further or encourage the deliverance of a Get, specifically including the application or even threat of application of a financial penalty (even with no possibility of jailing) that will result in case of non-delivery of a Get, including even a previously contractually agreed upon financial payment for not giving a Get, results in a Get Me’usa according to Halacha and specifically described in S”A.
There’s a famous story (I forget who the two rabbonim were) where one Rov (a famous tzadik) was attracting an ever larger and larger congregation whereas the other rabbi in town kept losing congregants. So the Rabbi who was losing his people complained to the other Rov about him stealing his members. The popular Rov said he agrees its a problem but he doesn’t know what to do since new people keep joining his shul even though he isn’t soliciting or otherwise doing anything to try to attract them. So the other rabbi suggests to him that at his next Shabbos drasha he should admit to his congregation that he’s a nobody and not worthy of being their rov.
So he agreed to this plan, v’kach hava, that Shabbos he cried during his drasha and told everyone he really was nothing special and unworthy of such a large congregation given his not being a great person, etcetera. But lo and behold the next Shabbos his shul doubles in size and more people than ever before join his Kehila and accept him as their rov.
The next week the other rabbi comes complaining to him more bitter than ever that instead of fixing the problem he took away more people than ever. The ever popular Rov said he doesn’t know what more he could do. He tried to discourage people from coming and instead they thought he was being supremely humble and now even more people were joining him.
So the other rabbi tells him he has a solution. The next Shabbos he should announce what a great Rabbi and tzadik he is and that’ll scare away some of the people. To that the Rov responded he cannot do. “I may be no tzadik, but a liar I certainly am not!”
We’ve heard all the excuses why some come late.
How about those that pack out of shul early before davening is over, aleinu and kaddish complete? What are their excuses?
Hungry, late for work, couldn’t come to an earlier minyan?
babbler, it ain’t over till the fat man sings. Seriously though, it isn’t over until and unless it’s mutually agreed that it’s over. It generally cannot be decided to be over unilaterally. That being said, without elucidating details its unclear why you think he had an obligation to move.
lilmod, ty. I get it despite the moderation.
CTL, a Get given by a husband under orders from a non-Jewish court, even if enforcing an agreed civil agreement/prenup, is deemed under halacha to be a “Get Me’usa”, an invalid Get, and the Shulchan Aruch states that the wife remains married and if she has future children with another purported husband using that earlier Get Me’usa they are halachicly deemed to be mamzeirim.
ZD, a civil divorce is halachicly meaningless as to whether beis din is halachicly authorized and able to order a Get be given based on the circumstances.
Agreed. It’s only viable for the wealthy. It isn’t something most people should engage in.
I also think at some point in the thread you changed the discussion to a scenario where there was no obligation to divorce, but it was a good idea nonetheless, from the earlier focus of the discussion. In any event the Halacha indicates that if he sincerely seeks shalom bayis, even if his pursuit of that might be unreasonable in light of his spouse’s stubbornness in demanding a divorce, then he is committing no aveira and, rather, the “V’ahavta l’raecha kamocha” obligation is upon her to return to his home and work on making the marriage work as best as possible. This point is best exemplified by Rav Elyashiv’s teshuva that I cited above (and would still suggest you read and provide feedback here on) of the case where they were separated for six years and Rav Elyashiv ruled he had no obligation to give a Get.
lilmod, sorry for that barb, I didn’t actually mean that criticism (which wasn’t justified in any event) but rather was frustrated by your seeming implication when responding to others above in this thread that unless I switched my views on this issue to yours, that your opinion of me is dependent on my agreeing I’m wrong. That coupled a bit with my sense that your views on this topic are more strongly informed by the popular zeitgeist of advocates on this topic than of the halachic view on the subject which is abundantly clear in the shailos u’teshuvos seforim. And my (likely mistaken) impression that you were somewhat dismissive of S”A and teshuvos I presented in their applicability to the discussion. In any event I apologize for that zinger.
lilmod, I thought I was clear that it is only viable if the rabbonim shlita agreed to it and thought it beneficial. It isn’t being proposed independent of the rabbonim. Also note that this ban was never accepted across all segments of Klal Yisroel. It was primarily Ashkenazim. And Teimanim practice it even in the modern era. Additionally, were it implemented clearly it would only be doable, or even desired, by a small minority of the Klal. If 95% of the people felt it weren’t for them, and only 5% practiced it, then that’s what it would be. I only pointed out that a longtime female poster here advocated it to demonstrate it does have its proponents. And if someone felt there only option for marriage was being one of two wives versus an alternative of being no one’s wife, I could easily see some choosing the former over the latter.
gofish, clearly the Fundamentalist Mormons implement this badly. I don’t think any sane person would advocate a dozen wives for one husband, as they often do. I only cited them in reference to the practicality of legally practicing this in the United States. Technically they aren’t practicing polygamy in a secular legal sense in the United States since they only have an official marriage certificate with one wife. The others are only what they solemnize as a spiritual marriage. However they’re practicing it they’re doing it openly and aren’t prosecuted for it unless there is underage, non-consent or abuse involved.
Your question to me regarding a hypothetical situation where the husband has no obligation to divorce his wife but the rabbonim recommend that he do so nevertheless is an interesting question that required more thought. This is my thoughts about it, while noting it is hypothetical and thus subject to situation-specific thought were it applicable in a real life situation. Assuming the rabbis dealing with it were yirei shamayim who don’t cater their actions to modern crowd pleasing laymen demands, then I think the husband would be wise to accept their recommendation. (I’m much more skeptical of secularly-trained therapists making gittin recommendations. In the secular world divorce is considered par for the course that is recommended far far more than appropriate.) That being said, you acknowledged it is a situation where there is no obligation to divorce. That being the case, while it would be smart of him to divorce, should he unwisely elect not to do so, he is committing no sin and is excersicing his Torah granted right to remain married. Just as in the case Rav Elyashiv dealt with, where it was far more severe circumstances, and nevertheless the ruling was he was within his rights (which he exercised) to decline to divorce.
lilmod, a bit of humility is in order and you should acknowledge you are very mistaken on this issue. I brought you Rav Miller and you retort that you disagree with Rav Miller. I point out that the Rov was speaking from a perspective of seven decades as a community pulpit Rov dealing with all sorts of family issues including gittin, and as a godol hador, and you counter that you have some divorced acquaintances they tell you otherwise. So I cite Shulchan Aruch paskening that eyewitness proof is required, and even then there are only a small number of grounds that halacha says permits unilateral petition for divorce, and you respond we don’t pasken like Shulchan Aruch. Really? So I quote you a contemporary psak din written by the posek hador of our own generation, Rav Elyashiv, of a real situation in our own lifetimes where the husband acted abnormally, the wife hated him and separated from him for six years and is now asking for a Get, and Rav Elyashiv unambiguously ruled that not only isn’t he forced to give her a divorce but he doesn’t even have an obligation to give it to her. So you now come back telling us that you’re experienced about contemporary gittin matters since you’ve been dating divorced men for ten years and research their cases real well so, shoin, you’re a researcher offering your own boich svaras who knows better than psak halacha explicitly stated in the Torah, Chazal, the Shulchan Aruch, thousands of years of written psak halacha that all state that a unilaterally demanded divorce is not granted barring extremely extenuating circumstances that halacha specifically states entitles a spouse to a divorce.
You said you wanted to read Rav Elyashiv’s psak in the original loshon kodesh. It is in Kovetz Teshuvos volume I #174. Please read it prior to responding to my comment.
Abba, the reason he doesn’t want to divorce her is because he likes her and wishes to remain with her and, yes, put up with her indefinitely. Just as they both agreed to do when they both agreed to marry each other.
Person1, your comment is entirely inaccurate. I am very much interested in how the Torah relates to our lives, including in the topic at hand, and my comments very much reflect that.
When someone cites Shulchan Aruch or contemporary psak halacha from the posek hador, that precisely *is* guidance from the Torah on how to live our lives today.
Can’t unless you use two different browsers (or one incognito window). It is a bug introduced to the site about four years ago when they updated the software. Prior to the bug if you were logged into one then you were automatically already logged into both.
Chacham Ovadia Yosef said he’s in favor of Sephardim again practicing polygamy, as Rabbeinu Gershom’s restriction only applied to Ashkenazim. Teimanim even today have multiple wives (especially some of the older Teimani couples). And there have even been Ashkenazic rabbonim who said the ban (which technically expired per R”G’s takana but was kept in place by the rabbonim of the time post-expiration) could be lifted if the rabbonim today felt it beneficial to do so.
There is a notable discrepancy in the number of single women in shidduchim versus the notably lower number of single men in shidduchim.
There are women who would agree to be part of a family with multiple wives were that a viable option. There’s even a longtime member of this coffee room who is an older single that posted here she’d be open to the idea.
It is legal in some countries, including South Africa (which has a frum community and the President of the country himself has multiple wives.) So anyone could visit South Africa to do it should they so desire. And America has accepted tens of thousands of African immigrants with their multiple wives, many of whom live in New York City.
Additionally, Fundamentalist Mormans have openly been practicing polygamy in the United States for hundreds of years and continue to openly do so today. Court decisions have protected them from being adversely affected from on the books marriage restrictions and even more recent court decisions have made clear the entire US laws precluding polygamy, even though they aren’t enforced and haven’t been in nearly a century, are unconstitutional in any event.
Lilmod, the topic of discussion as asked by the OP is (to directly quote him) “whether her reasons for wanting a Get are halachically sufficient or not.” He was not asking whether he should be “encouraged or discouraged from giving a divorce” as you keep insisting. As an aside, in my opinion, the stage the OP is in would be where they’d be discouraged from jumping to divorce and encouraged to work on reconciliation.
Lilmod, please read the teshuva of Rav Elyashiv on this topic that I just linked to in that thread to understand the halachic answer to your question.
Lilmod, please read this written teshuva from the posek hador of our own generation, about a gittin dispute of a far worse situation than the OP and notice Rav Elyashiv’s psak:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/men-withholding-a-get#post-566490
Mesilas Yeshorim.
Lilmod, knowing the recent topic that prompted your above comment, I must say that in my opinion our disagreement lies in the underlying application of halacha and not in the expression of it. On that topic.