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Everyone’s an expert.
APY, you’re asking the question 9 years after the post. He probably forgot.
I actually meant to refer to Saul Lieberman, not Saul Berman. But I see Berman is an affiliate of Avi Weiss and his Open Orthodox denomination.
iac, The press is generally notified by the prosecutor/law enforcement agency about the arrest after it is made. But it not too infrequently occurs that the prosecutor’s office will tip off the press prior to the arrest ofwhen and where the arrest will take place, so that the prosecutor can gain much more potent press coverage with pictures of the (still presumed innocent) defendant being taken away in handcuffs.
Avi, you’re not perturbed that the prosecutors corrupted the case against the defendant to get an unfair conviction that placed him in prison for over two decades before it was overturned?
That happens every day in American courtrooms nationwide. Sometimes it is later overturned. Often after wrongly spending years or decades behind bars. Even more times it is never overturned. The Brooklyn DA alone has been on a mission over the past three years overturning many wrongful convictions from the previous Brooklyn DA’s tenure. And that’s just one DA (out of thousands nationwide) with so many wrongful convictions.
And you’re down to quoting Conservative “rabbis” like Mr. Saul Berman to make your claimed halachic points?
iac: Perp walks are *not* coordinated with the defendant beforehand. They’re a surprise to him. If they’d be coordinated he’d have been able to turn himself in to the DA’s office without an early morning surprise home raid scaring the living daylights out of his little children and spouse. The only ones not surprised are the TV cameramen who got advance notification of the address and time of the “surprise” arrest raid. It frequently occurs the prosecutor will tip off the press when he’s seeking the limelight as tough-on-crime as they walk him out in handcuffs in front of the press cameras — and his family and neighbors.
(“It cannot be said they…” should have read “It cannot be said that youโre innocent of bank robbery.”)
iac: It cannot be said they you’re innocent of bank robbery. Sure, as far as I know, you were never charged with bank robbery. But that doesn’t mean you’re innocent.
You’re no more innocent than an accused bank robber who was found not guilty in court. Or for that matter, an accused bank robber who hasn’t yet had his day in court.
Agreed with this sentiment?
You’re going to put your trust in 12 random jurors from the street whose only common qualification is that they all were unable to somehow get out of unwillingly serving on a jury? How often does a CEO or CFO or CIO or Chairman or board member of a Fortune 1000 company or a S&P 500 company serve on a jury? No, the jury system is heavy laden with the homeless and unemployed and underemployed who don’t have nearly as much to lose financially being paid $40 a day for a week or two weeks of potentially losing their regular job income for that period. And other jurors (who did unsuccessfully try to get out of jury duty) who want to get away from the jury ASAP back to a job paying more than $40 a day, and if that means just voting guilty to get home quicker rather than deliberate longer, even though they might not be convinced of guilt, then so be it. No sweat off his back if an innocent man spends the next 5, 10 or 20 years languishing in prison.
And judges who if they woke up on the wrong side of the bed that morning or missed breakfast or are hungry for lunch or don’t like your lawyer or are good friends with the prosecutor can easily and subtly push for a conviction by all kinds of unjust rulings against the defendant.
Or a system that frequently and regularly uses convicts in plea bargains who are promised a much lower jail sentence if they testify against the defendant, and will comply and will make make up whatever it takes to make the prosecutor happy and get that lower jail sentence by falsely testifying or by turning in innocent people so that he has someone to testify against in exchange for an easier sentence.
In Beis Din a convict is pasul l’eidus for very good reason.
And prosecutors who must run for re-election by getting convictions and proving to dumb voters how tough on crime they are or are seeking appointment to higher office in the DOJ or future elected office by making a name for themselves and pandering to the cameras and needing bodies to convict.
One nice perk of being a prosector is giving the perp walk to those “innocent until proven guilty”, and calling up all the TV stations beforehand (“on the condition of anonymity”) to give them the addresses the FBI will raid to take those non-convicted out in handcuffs in front of their children and neighbors.
According to iacisrmma, once accused you’re never innocent. You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t. Because, as he says, even if you’re outright acquitted you’re “not innocent”.
The reality, however, is they even if found guilty it is no indication of actual guilt, given Americaโs corrupt court system and prosecution system.
Need I remind anyone how many former convicts were later exonerated? Often after serving decades in prison wrongly. You hear another such case almost every day. And how many more innocents are still languishing in Americaโs prisons convicted but not exonerated?
Halacha, on the other hand, puts the onerous on the accuser. Even guilty beyond reasonable doubt is insufficient to convict of a crime. Each Dayan who votes guilty must truly believe with his entire heart and soul that the evidence proves beyond *any* doubt that the accused is absolutely guilty, in order for the Dayan to be permitted to vote guilty.
And if not convicted, the accused is considered a member in good standing of Klal Yisroel as much as the Kohen Godol.
Even if found guilty it is no indication of actual guilt, given America’s corrupt court system and prosecution system.
Need I remind anytime how many former convicts were later exonerated? Often after serving decades in prison wrongly. And how many more innocents are still languishing in America’s prisons convicted but not exonerated?
It was never for โthe bestโ learners but rather for anyone who WANTED the honor of learning in Kollel, as the Rambam describes those who WANT to join Shevet Levi. He does not condition their membership in the Kollel community as having to be the best, but rather having the desire. The idea that only the โbestโ should learn in Kollel is a baseless falsehood and it is against the Halchah as expressed by the Rambam which states that anyone who so chooses may learn in Kollel. See also YD Laws of Talmud Torah 246:21 and Shach ad loc. Kollel is a special privilege and status that anyone can go for if they so choose, the Rambam says.
Sitting and learning all day is the ideal. “Talmud Torah kneged kulam.” Chazal say, one word of Torah is higher than an entire lifetime of doing these Mitzvos. Chazal often mention that Toroso Umnoso is the ideal, that we do nothing all day but learn. Nowadays poskim say that w cannot reach that level, but clearly the closer the better. Also, Shulchan Aruch Hilchos Toalmud Torah, in the Shach ad loc, says that nowadays learning all day is the ideal, and that if someone has the ability to do it, he should. The Shach adds that regarding learning all day in general, nowadays we cannot reach our potential in learning the way the Rambam etc. did, since we are not on that level. Therefore, we should learn all day if we can.
The Rambam writes that a “working person” is someone who learns 8 hours a day and works 3 hours. Not works 9am to 5pm.
The workplace, even frum workplaces, is not a place for a good Jewish boy. We have to be there, granted; we have to make a living for our families โ which is a Mitzvah in itself โ but we need to realize the price we pay for those necessities.
There is a story in the mussar seforim, about a man who had a premonition that next yearโs crops would be poisoned, so that whoever would eat it would become insane. He didnโt; know what to do โ if he would eat the crops heโd become insane, but if he does not eat the crops, the whole world will be insane except him, and being the only normal one in an insane world is just as bad as being insane. Warning people about the crops is useless because nobody would believe him anyway. So he went ot the village wise man who told him, โYou have to eat the crops. Youโre right โ that being the only normal person in an insane world is as bad as being insane. Plus it will drive you crazy anyway. But hereโs what you do:
โTie a string around your finger to remind yourself constantly that you have eaten from the crops and you are insane. Being insane is bad, but in this case you have no choice. However, for the rest of the world, much worse than being insane is the fact that they will think theyโre normal. Being insane is bad, but being insane thinking youโre normal is much worse. So tie a string around your finger which will always remind you that you are insane. Youโll be insane, but at least youโll know youโre insane. Everyone else will think theyโre normal, so youโll be much much better off than the rest.โ
The nimshal is, thereโs nothing wrong with going to work, and often it may even be a necessity. But to spend the gift of life that Hashem gives us for such a short time in this world selling cars or programming computers or whatever we need to do to make a living, is insane. It may be necessary, but itโs still insane. We have so little to live in this world (we should all live to 120 years, but compared to eternity in the afterlife, 120 years is nothing), and its our only chance to collect Torah and Mitzvos โ how crazy is it to busy ourselves with other things??
But we have to? OK, we have to. At the very least, let us realize that we do so out of necessity and that making a living necessitates our leading a life which, when you consider what weโre on this world for and the opportunities that exist ONLY while we are here, is insane. Letโs at least realize that.
For those who learn all day, they may not need to tie strings around their fingers, but, unfortunately, in the materialistic and confused world that we live in, they need posts such as this one, to constantly remind them that their lives are very, very normal, sane, and healthy.
The hardships of Kolel are nothing compared to the pleasures. Like Rav Aharon ZTโL said โ that those who support learning might get Olam Habah like those who learn, but they surely donโt get Olam Hazeh like them. Money isnโt everything โ even in Olam Hazeh.
Contrary to the belief of many, it is impossible to predict who will become a Talmid Chacham. As the Chazon Ish said, โEvery student is a possible godol hadorโ. The Roshei Yeshiva of today were not all the ones who people thought would become the Roshei Yeshiva of today. And vice versa. Talent and intellect help, to be sure, but effort and siyata dishmaya are more important to success as a Torah scholar. Becoming a โgodolโ is not just for the brightest. In fact, often it is not they who attain that goal. An average student, and it has happened that also below average students, have become great Gedolim and surpassed their more talented peers. Not everybody can become the greatest Talmid Chacham in the world. But everybody can become as close to the greatest Talmid Chacham in the world that he can. Those Bnei Torah, the ones who pour their heart and soul and life into learning Hashemโs Torah, merit, every single one of them, the greatest share in Olam Habah possible.
That is the main reason people learn in Kollel. Because Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam.
Off brand hats are perfectly fine.
Someone who has a weak head at learning has the exact same mitzvah rabbah, and receives the exact same schar, and is as valuable to the security of Klal Yisroel, as the person who is a terrific learner when both put in the same full time hours of Limud Torah.
There is absolutely zero basis to assert that the better learner has more right or is more suitable to be a Kollel yungerman than the person who cannot learn nearly as well.
The fact that she’s frum and wants to bring up her children frum while he’s not frum (and possibly not Jewish) and wants to bring up the children as goyim, is in itself more than sufficient reason to fully support the mother.
I hear. But to davka use that specific verbiage rather than anything else because of societies fondness of it, is where my point is applicable to.
Obviously this isn’t the same aveira as c’v actually getting on the knee.
Even without being on one’s knee, the very idea of the guy proposing with the verbiage “Will you marry me” itself comes from the goyim.
The court documents, as written by the judge(s), make clear she’s frum and he became frei. And the court penalized her for trying to stop him from teaching the children to dislike Judaism, go to public school instead of Yeshiva and feed them treif.
He wants to bring the children up as goyim whereas she wants to bring the children up as Yidden.
The fact that she’s frum and he’s frei is in itself more than sufficient for the entire frum community to throw our full, unthrottled, support for her. Financially, morally, physically and emotionally.
May they be completely matzliach in defeating these false charges quickly.
You should strongly consider opening a fund raising campaign on one of those websites that specializes in fund raising. i.e. GoFundMe, etc. There are also some sites that specialize in fund raising for frum causes.
What’s more fun that finally figuring out a Tosfos?
Learn in the Beis Medrash.
The generous askanim who support worthy mosdos are just as happy to support a Kollel man who doesn’t have the greatest head for learning as they are happy to support Kollel men who are terrific learners. Just as the Torah makes no distinction between the Limud Torah of those two types of learners, neither do Klal Yisroel’s choshove baalei tzedaka who happily support both types.
Part time Torah study is nowhere near equal or as worthy as full time Torah study. Not without the non-full time learner financially supporting the full time learner (Yissoschor-Zevulin partnership). Then, with the balebatim supporting those learning full time Torah do they reach the learners level with Hashem.
So if you want to have the zchus of being a full time Torah learner, and you aren’t one, then go out and give money to those learning full time.
That’s complete hogwash. He’s far from the only defender. And he does not confirm any of the false allegations that you claim he verifies.
WB, Feivel!
Yseribus: How long would you guess it would take a detractor to write up that stuff? An hour? Two hours?
Oh, there are signatures. Then it *has* to be real! How could I have missed that??
I offered my opinion. I stand by it, but it is just my opinion. And, note, I didn’t say it is universal.
I think it would answer the question, Avram, but it wouldn’t be sufficiently a clear answer to the questioner.
Mekach Taos, kiddushei taos. (I know someone will take this seriously.)
That’s your best shot? You’re arguing against my comments without offering any counteracting data? I said the number of Jews is underreported due to many not even considering themselves Jewish despite being halachicly Jewish. Even not counting them, as we should, the official estimate of worldwide Jews is close to 18 million.
Yet, somehow, you don’t find homeless Yidden living on the streets of Lakewood and starving.
A large portion of those taking the bar examination, including those who went though law school, fail it. Lawyers don’t like competition. They’ve made it intentionally difficult to become a lawyer.
There’s nothing new there other than a repetition of the same media babble of false allegations by detractors that’s been printed previously.
Who said anything about expecting an entitlement to pubic funds? A large segment of the balebatish Torah community is more than *happy and eager* to provide kollelim money. You don’t want to? No problem. Someone else will fill in your missing shoes.
Has anyone heard where the rebbe’s mishpacha is sitting shiva?
Who runs FDU?
Most bochorim would benefit from an out of town mesivta, away from the distractions at home, allowing him to focus fully on his limud.
Phil, don’t worry. You need not contribute one miserly penny towards even a single Kollel. You keep stashing your “hard earned money” into your savings account and one day you’ll be able to afford a golden casket.
In the absence of your contributions, I am pleased to report that nevertheless over the past 75 years of the postwar period, despite great predictions of the Kollel systems impending demise that’s been predicted by naysayers such as yourself each and every year for over the last 50 years, the Kollel system is going as strong as ever. And has continued so through both good economic times and bad economic times.
There are more than 18 million Jews since many Jews don’t even know they’re Jewish and aren’t counted as Jewish. And unfortunately Eretz Yisroel doesn’t have anything close to the number of Kollel men as you claim.
Halevai that there should be 100,000 Kollel guys in Eretz Yisroel. If we work hard enough hopefully we can reach (and exceed!) that figure.
For the sake of Hashem, 1 in 1,000 Jews are in Kollel and it bothers you that that’s too much!? We should bring it closer to 1 in 100 Jews in Kollel. You should be bothered that currently there’s not enough Yidden are in Kollel!
Victuals, aliments, edibles, food. Whatever floats your boat.
There’s about 18 million Jews in the world. One tenth of one percent would be 18,000.
Being a Kollel man should not have anything to do with learning ability. Someone who is a poor learner but has a great desire to learn Torah full time has just as much right to be a Kollel man as the best learner in Brisk. There’s absolutely no halachic reasoning, logic or source to say that the best learner has more reason to be a Kollel man than someone who cannot learn so well but nevertheless greatly desires to learn Torah all day.
And today with so much assimilation that the frum are a tiny minority of Jews, there are so few Jews dedicated to full time Limud HaTorah. Perhaps about 1 in 1,000 Jews are in Kollel. Only 1 in 1,000 Jews in Kollel, Rabbosai! Do you hear that dismal number?! We need to raise by manifold the number of Kollel yungerleit. Over the next four to five years we must aim to at least triple the number of Kollel men.