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another example would be the ramban describing the big bang hundreds of years before science did…
ben levi: not really. He emphatically describes 3 types of people, 2 of them in a negative light. Namely, people who take things literally and those who won’t believe anything bc it makes no sense.
The only ‘positive’ character is one who understands that aggadata was written to teach lessons on various levels, sometimes hidden.
Concerning evolution that someone mentioned; it has been proven that animals change over time to better fit in with their surroundings.
It would be interesting to note that the Soforno writes in bereshis concerning the creation of adam that HaShem did not wave a wand and poof adam was there but He took a creature already created and made it be’tzelem Elokim.
Instead of denying any modern science, jews should be proud that our rishonim knew things only recently discovered by scientists.
yitay, the rambam doesn’t just say that “one need not (or should not) accept all divrei aggada as historically accurate”. He actually goes into great length in describing the people that do as idiots.
He says there are 3 types of people:
1) those who take aggada literally – people who are so full of themselves that they think they understand the mashalim given by the rabbanim; that it is beyond possible for the rabbis to perhaps have had a deeper meaning.
2) those who won’t accept anything bc it seems impossible
3) and those who accept that aggadata was designed to have a deeper meaning and no one is expected to take it literally.
as rabbi yitzchak berkovitz of the jerusalem kollerl says, who cares if the story in the gemara is true or not- maybe they lied! The point isnt the truthfulness, it is the lesson to be learnt from it.
There are many machlokes between different rabbis; some say that x is permitted and some say that it is forbidden. Jews believe that we are created ‘btzelem Elokim’ which means that we, like God, have to power to create, to change the natural order. That is why halacha is ‘not in heaven’ – it is on earth for the rabbis to decide.
By definition, someone who doesn’t hold with this is basically saying that when there is a machlokes, one rabbi is right and will go to heaven and the other who is wrong is sinning.
That ‘torah lo bashamayim’ and that rabbis have the power to affect the natural order via their halachic decisions is such a basic concept or orthodox judaism that I am shocked that you seem not to know it.
Therefore, when a gadol, who is reliable, states that x is kosher, then for all his followers, x IS kosher. End of story. And all other rabbis must accept that for those people x is kosher even if it wouldn’t be for their followers. Therefore those children will not have the spiritual definition of mamzerim.
I am shocked to think that people here actually thought that when there was machlokes through the ages it meant that one side was right and the other wrong, as opposed to both being right but using different concepts to arrive at different conclusions.
You seem to be under the impression that it is impossible to remain religious with ‘goyishe’ influences but there are hundreds of thousands of jews who are proving you wrong. Being dati is accepting the 13 ani ma’amims; accepting the torah and the talmud.
It is not being extra chumradik on various specific halachot that the haredim decided are most important. Each religious jew keeps to his own level, whether that includes watching movies, going to bars, not getting up for an old man on a bus or stealing.
Your son may be deliberating due to his lifestyle not making sense or he may may be just using this as an excuse because he wants to go out and have fun. Either way, i think the best next step would be for YOU to accept that the haredi way does not have a monopoly over 100% religious judaism and then you can try telling him that he can have his ‘fun’ and he can live as a religous jew as part of the 21st century. Then, later, if he is genuinely on the level, he may put aside films and the like for holier activities.
mr/s. moderator. Why are you not posting my replies? Is it because you don’t like them?
they seem to restrict posting here. I’ll try with a much shorter version of what I was going to send.
i will try posting again.
this is ridiculous:
2 statements:
1) the beit din were able to beat, starve, execute people as they saw fit. To execute someone for a specific biblical transgression such as breaking shabbat was virtually unheard of due to the difficulty in providing witnesses. However, if there was a mad murderer running around, the beit din didn’t have to hang around waiting for 2 kosher edim; they would execute him under a pretext like ‘morid be’malchus’.
2) if your rabbi says you can do something and another rabbi says you can’t, the other rabbi’s opinion is irrelevant as far as you are concerned. We do not have a sanhedrin and your jewishness goes according to your rav. So if your rav says you can use one your divorce would be kosher and your future children and not mamzerim.
Saying that another persons rabbi makes halachic rulings for you is like saying all ashkenazi people hold sephardim are breaking pesach when they eat kitniot. I can’t believe that people here are even discussing this.
my account seems to have been blocked…
I think the main point is to show him that he can watch films, listen to music, go to a bar and still remain a 100% religious jew. Enjoying life in these ways is NOT mutually exclusive to judaism. Don’t let him think that either he keeps the charedi ideology or he may as well break shabbat. As if it was all or nothing. Give him the opportunity to do both, and then, when he is older and understands more the reasons why charedim have these chumras, he can choose for himself if he wants to accept them. But either way, he will remain 100% religious.
As a guy in my early twenties who went through this and know other people who did, I would suggest that he is really looking for any excuse to ‘have fun’ by doing as he pleases. When someone is brought up in a place where judaism implies that secular films/music are forbidden by law, you have to dress in black and white, you have to go to a yeshiva at the expense of secular studies (which would lead to work) etc. then religious judaism leaves the pure rational halachic boundaries and becomes a cult based on modern traditions with the single aim of who can be holier/stricter. This is the excuse he needs; why should he keep things that appear to make no sense even within judaism.
Do you want you son to be a religious jew who follows the shulchan oruch, one who follows the corrupt philosophy of modern day haredi’ism or be secular?
I would humbly suggest that instead of trying to send him back to haredi yeshiva where irrationally and stringencies reign you should send him to a modern orthodox yeshiva/uni where he can have a chance to be able to intellectually rationalise judaism in the current world. Where he can feel that he is not stuck in a medieval religion but one that is relevant today.
You can’t force faith on someone. You can give them a chance to learn if you put them in an atmosphere where they are encouraged to rationalise what they are doing.