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I really can’t believe the blatant ameratzus going on here. Please do NOT make up halachos if you never learned the sugya at all and never even looked up the Shulchan Aruch.
The sugya is in mainly based in Nazir 58b-59a.
It is %100 muttar, l’chol hade’os, to shave chest hair using anything but a razor, and that is the STRINGENT position of the Shulchan Aruch. Many rishonim hold even with a razor, but for all practical purposes, the SA in YD 182:2 says it is muttar without a razor, i.e. the same as shaving the face.
Regarding armpits, the SA follows the stringent opinion in the rishonim that any kind of shaving is assur, but qualifies that this is only ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ????. The Rema says that in a place that men also do it, it is muttar l’chatchila. R’ Akiva Eiger on the spot says that with regard to this we look at the goyim to see what is normal and follow that. Please do not dismiss what I am saying without seeing it inside. I am not sure if in America it is possible to say ??? ??????? ???? ??? ????. Therefore I do not think even the issur on armpit hair is so clear-cut.
The ikkar is you should ask a rov, but please everyone, stop making snap judgments about halachos you apparently have no clue about.
jewish and working 22-
Incorrect. The ervah must be covered because of the pasuk lo yir’eh b’cha ervas davar. Brachos 24a and 26b. And one must dress in an appropriate fashion because of the pasuk hikon likras elokecha yisroel. Shabbos 10a. Both of these halachos are brought down in Shulchan Aruch. See the footnotes in the gemaras for the SA references.
real-brisker-
Thank you for enlightening me… I think you missed my point.
Why is everyone just ignoring Moq? If I would say something which remotely implies I am disagreeing with R’ Elyashiv I would get jumped, and here when he’s quoting R’ Eiyashiv his post is simply ignored. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that this case he is being meikil? Just wondering…
Wolf-
Who says that whatever R. Tarfon said was said at Sinai?
.?????? ??:-??
Feif Un-
Without getting involved in this discussion, I would just like to point out to you that R’ Moshe in the Igros disagrees with you and says it is assur to say the word God in vain. I don’t have one offhand to check the source, but you can easily find it in the Yad.
Shloimies Shver-
The truth is, I wouldn’t be surprised if they simply didn’t hold of this gemara le’maaseh. There are many sources in the ge’onim and early rishonim that say that divrei aggadda, even in the gemara, need not be accepted. And before anyone jumps on me for saying that, please see R’ Hai Gaon and R’ Shreira Gaon in Otzar Hageonim Chagiga pp. 59-60, Shu”t haRambam ed. Mekitze Nirdamim p. 739, and the Ramban in the Vikuach ed. Chavel Vol. 1 p. 308 with the footnote. Also see the Tos. Harosh in Shabbos 12b on the gemara of al yish’al adam etc.
Wolf-
Not at all. R’ Tarfon’s opinion is R’ Tarfon’s opinion.
I used to think that maybe that gemara in Megilla doesn’t refer to the actual text, but to the explanations contained therein. As Tos. in Brachos 8b (top) says that the Targum often contains things which one wouldn’t have known just by reading the psukim. However, even this is problematic, because the rishonim generally don’t hesitate to argue on the Targum, which is strange if it actually was given at Sinai. I don’t really have a clarity on the issue.
However, all I was trying to say in my point was that this business of ????? ????? has its source in this gemara, not in ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????.
Wolf-
The gemara (Megilla ad loc) says it was forgotten and Onkeles restored it.
No, this is a Gemara in Megillah that says the Targum was given at ????.
a reverend?
squeak-
I have been wondering about that for a long time, yet I don’t know of any poskim who say that way l’halacha. I have my suspicions, but I’d be interested if you have a source. Otherwise, I certainly agree with moq and I don’t think you should be making snap psakim especially in this area.
myfriend-
In Menachos 99b Ben Dama asks R’Yishmael: I, who learned the entire Torah, can I learn Greek wisdom? He answered that the Pasuk says, “The Torah should not depart from your mouth and learn it day and night” – if you find time which is not day or night only then can you learn Greek wisdom.
The pshtus is that the halacha is not in accordance with that gemara. The gemara over there brings a middle shita that says one is yotzei lo yamush with krias shma in the morning and evening, and this is the stama d’gemara in Nedarim, and is brought down l’halacha by the Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah. Surely one who has time to learn and does not do so out of laziness falls under the category of moshav leitzim and is not doing what he was put here for, but l’halacha one is mekayeim the mitzva with a set time in the morning and evening.
Glad I could be of help 🙂
See the rest of that ????
???? ????? ??”? ??:? – ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????, ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????, ????? ?? ???? ??? (??”?) ???? ?????
So if you are generally makpid on R’ Yehuda Hachasid…
popa-
Not really. I like to say meheicha teisi to everything.
I think you missed my point. I said specifically, though not in this tone, the attitude reflects the thinking of the yeshivishe velt, regarding the mehalech in chumash of the said meforshim.
Although this statement was made in perhaps a very disrespectful manner, it makes sense why someone in the yeshivishe velt would say something to that effect, albeit with different words. In general, with regard to sticking to the mesorah and not saying more literal explanations in almost every topic in chumash, that is the order, with Rashi always quoting gemaras and midrashim etc., Ibn Ezra generally saying his own pshat with sometimes open disregard for midrashim, and Ramban and Rashbam somewhere in between. There is a very interesting Rashbam in the beginning of Vayeishev that is relevant, ?”?.
Helpful – Funny you should say that, in fact Conservative and Reform would probably use the same tone but they would say exactly the opposite.
I think the idea that “one came from the other” is someone mixing up “oso ves bno” and “basar bichalav”.
It happens to be Ibn Ezra does give this reason, your points notwithstanding. Regardless, I agree that this is a non-question, ????”?.
It is not mentioned in any of the major halacha seforim, including the Mishna Brura. Misterhock I challenge you to find me a source. R’ Shlomo Kluger (Chochmas Shlomo) says such a thing in Hilchos Lag Ba’omer but he is referring to a case where one pushes off the haircut until after Shabbos.
First of all Oorah has well-respected rabbanim with whom they certainly consulted before doing this.
Secondly, hello99 is right, in fact there are actually quite a few frum Jews who go there.
Look up the gemara, and tell me exactly where I’m going wrong.
mw13-
I am fine with that, as I said his point might be true. It’s like when the rabbanan make an asmachta which isn’t really a true drasha, he’s making an asmachta to his point. I only wished to point out that the question doesn’t need to be answered and cannot really be used as proof to his point.
holtzichfest-
I wasn’t saying I agreed with hello99, only that that is the gemara he is looking for. That is the gemara used to make this point, whether you agree to the r’aya or not.
The Gemara you’re looking for is Kiddushin 29b starting 9 lines from the bottom.
The reason chicken is in the meat category is simply because chicken can be confused with meat. It is a classic gezeira d’rabbanan. No one would confuse an egg with milk.
myfriend-
There is a lot that needs to be said to explain those points, and I apologize but I don’t have the time right now. Maybe later. But for now, I think R’ Ovadia’s words should be enough to convince you that things aren’t as clear-cut as you think.
An amora can, as was shown above. Unless you didn’t read my post.
?????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????? ???? ????????, ???? ?????? ???? ???????? ???? ????? ????
…
IOW First of all there’s a lot more there than that one statement which I already quoted at least three times. And second of all according to your previous statements even R’ Ovadia wouldn’t be any different than me regarding this point, so if you are willing to concede that he is different, then just admit that I am right in principle instead of making this about how much I know.
Allow me to quote from R’ Ovadia Yosef, in his introduction to his Sefer Halichos Olam.
????”? ???”? ????????? ???”? ??? ?????? (??’ ?) ???”?: ???”? ????? ????? ?? ??”? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ????, ?”? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??”? (?”? ??:) ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?????. ???? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???”? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??????. ??”? ??? ????? ??? ???? (?”? ????? ?”?) ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?????. ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???. ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????. ?”?. ??”? ????”? ????’? ???”? ???? ?? (???”? ??’ ??), ???? ??”? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ????, ????? ????? ????, ????? ????, ???? ???? ???? ????. ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? (??’ ???) ??? ??”?: ???”? ??????”? ?????”? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????????, ?”? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???. ?”?. ????”? ???? ?????? ??? (???”? ??’ ??) ?”? ???, ???, ??? ?????’ ??? ???? ??? ?????, ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ?????, ??? ??? ???? ????. ?”?. ??’ ???”? ??? ????? ?????? (??’ ??) ??’, ??”? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????’, ????? ?? ????? ???, ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?????, ?? ??? ???, ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????, ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??????? ???. ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????, ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ????, ????? ?????????? ???? ?? ??? ???. ?????? ?? ????? ???????? ?????? ???? ????????, ???? ?????? ???? ???????? ???? ????? ????, ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????. ???”?.
Braisas, rabbeim with a kabbalah all the way from Moshe rabbeinu, etc., and a whole different system. My point is the SA and everyone figuring out the halacha after the gemara is using the same gemara to figure out the halacha, so technically speaking anyone’s svara is the same, as long as you’re dealing with the same information. The mechaber doesn’t claim to know anything from a kabbalah, he supports everything he says with gemaros and rishonim.
I already explained the difference between the gemara and the SA. The SA is working with exactly the same thing we have, i.e. the gemara and the rishonim. Anyone who knows the sugya has the right to be machri’a one way or the other. I don’t need a source for this, you need to prove otherwise if you want to be mechadesh a new Torah that didn’t exist up until 500 years ago. If one doesn’t know the sugya well enough he would have to be foolish and reckless to do so. If you want to know if you are a person who can learn through a sugya properly, find someone who knows shas and poskim and ask him if he thinks you are capable.
Theoretically, yes. Though I wouldn’t do it, as I explained.
No proof. However, all the rishonim were nearly always afraid to, though there are certainly rare exceptions. I do not think that ‘klal yisroel accepted it and therefore it is authoritative’. I simply think it is unwise, very unwise, being that the amoraim knew a lot more than us, whether with regard to obscure braisos, or kabalos from their rabbeim since Moshe. Ma sh’ein kein the mechaber, as big of a giant as he was, had in front of him the same sugya of gemara with rishonim that I do, and a bar hachi has every right to utilize the claim of ein l’dayan… and all we can say is yiftach b’doro k’shmuel b’doro… The only time we cannot even theoretically argue is against a psak made by the beis din hagadol, because that doesn’t just clarify the halacha, it defines it. And therefore only on that is there a parsha of lo sasur and zakein mamrei, as is explicit in the rishonim.
Now you are saying I can’t argue on a Shach. Why not? Can my rebbi or rav argue on a Shach? From what I was taught, ein l’dayan ladun ela ma she’einav ro’os technically applies even against the Shulchan Aruch. And even if I don’t have a source, still, you are the one who has to prove it, not me, and that includes proving your assumtion that I have to agree with the Shach. I have a chazaka d’me’ikara on my side, and al hamachmir le’havi r’aya.
You assume that the gedolim accepted it in the manner of the gemara, and you are coming from a Shach. One can argue on the Shach. Besides, the Shach and many poskim in various places disagree with the mechaber’s psak, something which is extremely rare with the rishonim in regard to the gemara, so clearly it hasn’t been accepted with the same authority. If I remember correctly I made these points last time as well. If you wish to say it is completely binding than the burden of proof is upon you – to say klal yisroel is bound by something they weren’t previously bound by. And you have not provided a satisfactory proof in my opinion.
Either way, that was not really my point here. I was saying to mbachur that in places where the SA mentions nothing about a particular case, and the case is mefurash in the gemara with no one arguing, that one may assume the halacha is like that gemara. I don’t think you will disagree with that as vigorously as with my earlier argument.
mbachur-
Ok, that’s what you hold. I disagree, and have my rebbi and rav to back me up. Just wondering, what exactly is your basis for saying the Rambam, SA etc. define the halacha? Obviously for someone who is ignorant these are worthy poskim to rely on, but I’d like to know what basis you have for assuming that they actually determine the halacha and not the gemara.
Oh, and the SA brings this halacha in YD 84:1. Though the real source of the halacha is Chullin 67a…
mbachur-
It’s halacha because the gemara says it. All I said is that in general no rishon or acharon would have the pleitzus to argue on anything that is mefurash in the gemara without a machlokes, so one can assume that such a thing is halacha because the gemara says so, regardless of whether or not the SA mentions it. And it happens to be the SA does bring down this halacha, I just didn’t have a chance to look it up yet.
mbachur-
I am positive that this is paskened in th SA though I don’t have the source offhand, but I’ll look it up when I get a chance unless someone else here knows what I’m talking about and gets it first.
Agav, I disagree with you; if there is a halacha in the gemara that no one argues with, even if the SA doesn’t mention it, as a general rule every single rishon and acharon will tell you that it is the halacha and no one will argue on it.
squeak-
There is a simple difference between us and the previous generations, without getting involved in speculation about what the metzi’us was in those days.
A sheretz that grows inside the water is mutar to consume, I don’t have the SA offhand but its in the end of the third perek in Chullin and no one disagrees. However this only applies to such a sheretz that never left the water. The whole question only begins in our system of running water, where there are certain points where the water is filtered in ways that make it questionable as to whether it is considered the sheretz never left the water. I never dug very deeply into the shailah and I don’t know all the details – that is probably obvious, but I know that the question has a lot to do with this, and thus your problem about previous generations is resolved. If I didn’t live in New Jersey maybe I’d know more…
at the library
cherrybim-
The story with Rabban Gamliel has no relevance here. In hilchos aveilus the issur is on something that brings extra enjoyment. In those days a shower for a normal person was for enjoyment. R’ Gamliel was saying he is an istenis so he is not simply doing it for enjoyment and therefore it is permitted for him. Showering on yom tov presents an entirely unrelated problem, that is, one may not heat up water on yom tov (at least). Istenis therefore is an irrelevant argument, just as it is not an argument to be matir plowing on shabbos.
Nonetheless, I have previously stated my rav’s position that showering on yom tov is permitted.
barnes and noble is free
Thanx : ) I’m busy in yeshiva so I can’t always be around, but it’s nice to be noticed.
For Halacha sheilos, ask your rav. If you aren’t capable of paskening yourself you shouldn’t be looking for people to hang your hat on. Find someone to rely on consistently, and finished.
That being said, assuming those who don’t have a rav aren’t listening to this and getting one anytime soon, I will state my rav’s opinion.
It is 100 percent mutar to take a hot shower on yom tov, being that nowadays it is clearly shaveh l’chol nefesh, unlike the way it was in the times of the gemara and the mechaber. – ??”? ??? ???? ?”? ??”? ??’ ??. He also said that since it is mutar it is a mitzva, kibud yom tov.
Kasha-
The Rambam’s position was not stated regarding non-Jews. He said it explicitly about Jews, in his Iggeres haSh’mad.