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A logical analysis doesn’t need historical evidence? You want to make a hanacha, bash an entire segment of klal yisroel because of your hanacha, and not bring any rayos to your hanacha? That is just wrong. Forget about an academic, my Rosh Chabura would throw you out on your head!
Obaminator-
My personal experiences are not anecdotal. I’ve been in the Litvishe Yeshiva system for ten years and I am simply noting the trend of the shmuessin I have been subject to. And I invite anyone with similar experiences to challenge my assertion.
Hey Lomed, according to your logic, how can you understand the spirituality of the MO if you aren’t MO?
And just curious, what’t the point of the physical side if the emotional aspect is “false.”
Ahavas Chinam is a misnomer. There is no such thing as Ahavas Chinam. Sin’as Chinam means hate for no reason. There is no such thing as love for no reason. The fact that someone is a Jew and isn’t a “hater of Hashem” is reason to love him/her. So don’t say ahavas chinam, as if it’s extra credit. It’s expected of us.
This was not intended as a contentious post. I only wish to strengthen the point of the OP.
I second MiddlePath again
gavra_at_work-
Thank you. I think that accurately sums it up.
Lomed Mkol Adam-
You keep saying that MO doesn’t believe this or that. What exactly is your source? Is it just your own pshat?!
As for the whole d’veikus argument, forget about it. Many ideas the Jewish mystics profess are professed in one way or another by other mystics as well, and how arrogant do you have to be assume otherwise in any case if you are admittedly not well educated in the subject? In know way does that make those concepts any less true, but you should know that, calling yourself Lomed Mkol Adam.
As for your summation of Chareidi Hashkafa, I reiterate that in the regular, litvishe yeshivos I’ve been to, they never taught us to focus on d’veikus in any way shape or form. They taught us to “lig in lernen”. Now you may be correct that that is a form of d’veikus, but that doesn’t mean it was our primary objective. If I were to eat an orange because I like the taste, you don’t say that I am eating the orange because I want to generate some chemical in my brain that gives me pleasure, for why that may be true, I am much more simple than that. And for you to say that what I am saying is not true both in regard to the Litvishe system and in regard to the MO one, is two arguments you have yet to bring a shred of historical evidence to support.
Yaela-
The poskim who hold that ervah is subject to societal norms would say that whatever is provocative when uncovered is called ervah. But as I said, the halacha you brought up is not an outgrowth of the ervah halacha.
Lomed Mkol Adam-
I don’t know if you mean to imply what you are implying, but it is pure kefirah. What you are describing is some form of pantheism* (also a word to look up) and I don’t think anyone of sound hashkafos would say pshat in the Zohar that way. Perhaps you are caught up in proving me wrong that you have to say extreme things, but you are wrong. I say this with all due respect, I am not trying to mock you.
I am not evading anything. My points are in short.
1) Litvaks may have things they “believe in” but these beliefs aren’t the central focus, limud hatorah is.
2) The MO attach centrality to limud hatorah, but believe that secular knowledge is important for one’s shleimus in life as well.
3) Your thesis that the MO doesn’t belief in this concept of d’veikus that the Litvishe do, and that they somehow detach halacha from all meaning, is unfounded, unsubstantiated, and is motzi la’az on a segment of klal yisroel.
*You may have meant something similar to what is known as Panentheism (check it up too), but that is also an idea found in mystical sects of many religions.
BMG. Although you might have to be there for a bit before they let you join a Halacha Chabura.
Lomed Mkol Adam-
Yitayningwut: You got it all wrong. Deveikus is a unique concept exclusive to Judaism. No other religion believes that man can actually be connected with God.
I don’t believe the mods would let me quote sefarim hachitzonim here, nor should they. However, you are wrong, do some research if you are really interested and you’ll see you are mistaken about this. Just a simple proof that I don’t think crosses a line is the Webster’s Dictionary definition of mysticism – “1: the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality reported by mystics.”
I don’t think you are familiar at all with Litvish Hashkafa; the Deveikus concept is absolutely the foundation of Litvish Hashkafa. According to Litvish Hashkafa, being ‘Daveik’ to Torah is in essence being Daveik with Hashem, because the Torah is an impartion from God Himself as GAW quoted from the Gemara/Midrash [see previous page].
You are missing my point. I did not say that the Litvishe Hashkafa does not believe in d’veikus, I said that your typical yeshiva bachur rarely if ever hears a shmuess on this concept and it is certainly not “central.” True, R’ Chaim Volozhiner, the primary source of the Litvishe Hashkafa, emphasizes that by being davuk to the Torah one is davuk to Hashem, but as I heard it from all of my Litvishe rabbeim his point is punkt fakert, to take away the focus from d’veikus baShem, as our mesorah is that the Nefesh Hachayim was meant as a polemic against the Chasidic ideology of d’veikus in general being central in a person’s life. The hashkafa of my rabbeim has always been clear, that d’veikus is a peripheral concept that’s true but isn’t our concern right now. And as I said, I really don’t believe that there is such a thing as a Litvishe Hashkafa in truth. A Mehalech, certainly. But not a Hashkafa. The only true Litvishe Hashkafa is that we don’t focus on Hashkafa because it isn’t “the fleish and potatos.”
Popa, I completely agree with you.
Romantic songs that aren’t vulgar are not rare at all, in fact wherever you live I’m sure there is a radio station that is dedicated to such music. Moreover, unlike Popa, I can say with confidence that I am pretty well-rounded when it comes to music, and I think that to say that most romantic songs are about “lust” is absurd.
To say that “the non Jewish concept of love and the Jewish one are polar opposites” is to me a statement made in ignorance, and Popa is right that Chazal are full of statements that have romantic connotations. And sure, Shir Hashirim is a mashal, but would Shlomo Hamelech use something that was treif and utterly false as a mashal? Come on.
I don’t consider romantic songs to be treif.
they don’t recognize the uniqueness of Judaism,
Of course they do. Don’t be motzi la’az like that. They just believe that there is what so be gained from the outside world as well.
and that Judaism is the only religion that carries with it the concept of “Deveikus”
That isn’t really true. Other religions also have a similar idea. We just believe that their way of getting there is, obviously, mistaken. But that’s neither here nor there.
This ‘Deveikus’ concept opens up a deep dimension in a person’s feelings, which only grows with each Torah learning and mitzvah which he subsequently does. This is the value which I claimed as central and exclusive to Chareidi philosophy.
“D’veikus” per se, as you refer to it, is a mystical concept, wihch your typical yeshiva bachur does not meet up with except in a couple of paragraphs of Mesilas Yesharim. In the yeshivas I’ve been to they didn’t talk about d’veikus that much, more about shleimus, and if anything, about “being davuk to the Torah,” I think that to say that “d’veikus” is the central chareidi philosophy is wholly incorrect. The truth is I think it’s a joke to say that there is a real “central philosophy” in the litvishe velt. Machshava isn’t central at all. As I once heard a litvishe Rosh Yeshiva say when there was a well known Machshava speaker in town and guys went to hear him – “You enjoyed it, yeh? Nu, but Teireh is the fleish and potatos!”
That short list of poskim at the end were citations of shitos that say more or less that “ervah” described in that Gemara in Berachos is subject to societal norms.
One more thing. Sa’ar b’isha ervah is not some obscure Tosefta somewhere. Therefore if it were true that the halacha we are discussing is an outgrowth of that, I would expect it to be noted in the rishonim. Can you show me even one rishon who says so?
ItcheSrulik-
Lol 🙂
on the ball-
Nu nu, I don’t think it was crude and disrespectful.
I second MiddlePath
Lomed, from my understanding this thread is not about debating the truth or falsehood of the tenets of Modern Orthodoxy. It is about identifying the beliefs and perspectives of either group. If you want to discuss whether certain concepts are true or not, why not start a new thread? I may even be on your side… (I never identified myself as MO)
Lomed Mkol Adam-
Whatever changes he made, I have not seen anything apparent in Halakhic Man that goes against old fashioned litvishe hashkafa. If I am incorrect, show me otherwise.
You are making up something and calling it a root difference. It is a shtus. Just an anecdote, I have heard that Rav Shachter tells a story that Rav Soloveichik was shaken up all Shabbos after he did a davar she’eino miskaven (if anything that’s the only non-litvishe thing I have ever heard about him, a true litvak would say hey it’s mutar anyway and move on in life). And whether this story is true or not doesn’t matter. It is absolutely incorrect and truly slanderous to say that the MO philosophy discounts depth and feeling in our actions. No religion would ever say that, never mind a segment of our own. To claim this value to Chareidi philosophy alone is to be ignorant of the most basic human need for meaning. Excuse me but it is just foolish.
msseeker-
If 50% of Jewish teens were cheaters, it wouldn’t be an unfair stereotype or complete misrepresentation of Jewish ideals; it would be the truth.
Of course it would be a misrepresentation of Jewish ideals. Jewish ideals are Jewish ideals, regardless of what Jewish people do.
Perhaps. Let it be clear though that I specifically wrote secular knowledge in and of itself can be part of a person’s growth as a Jew according to the MO. There is no true MO philosophy that says Torah and halacha are not also necessary components in a Jew’s personal growth.
HaLeiVi-
I disagree, and have written extensively about this on past threads.
If you really want we can get into this, again, but just for reference, here is some of what I have once written about the connection between this halacha and sa’ar b’isha ervah:
???? ???? ?? ??? ????, ???? ??? ??? ??????, ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???. ??????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????, ??”? ???? ???? ?????????? ???? ???? ???, ??? ??????? ??????. ???? ???”? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???, ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????. ???? ??”? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ??? ???????. ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????.
And in regard to the “drasha” from Shir Hashirim:
?????? ????’ ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????, ???? ?? ???? ?’ ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? (??”? ?:?) [???? ?????]
(The second paragraph is supposed to be a footnote from the asterisk in the first, my computer just isn’t letting me do it right.)
Do you have a problem with all non Jewish music or only with ‘explicit content’ type? If so, try getting into jazz, blues, or classical music. You’ll become more ‘cultured’ that way too.
Are you saying that I’m not a kosher litvak?
Peacemaker-
It’s all connected…
Lomed Mkol Adam-
You’re splitting hairs. MO also believes in internalizing what you do. Do you honestly think they believe in being shallow? Heck, Reform doesn’t believe that. They may have a different perspective on life in general but the Torah is very real to them. And for every person officially identified with MO who doesn’t really care, you have someone officially identified with the Yeshiva world who doesn’t really care, so the argument is moot.
Chacham-
Saying the MO are not known for their dikduk in halacha is like saying Jews are not known for their honesty in business. It’s an unfair stereotype and a complete misrepresentation of their ideals. They believe in the same halacha that we do, and that there are people who consider themselves MO but don’t live up to official Orthodox standards does not negate this.
The halacha says that a woman is required to cover her hair. You are right that it is inferred from the parsha of sotah, but if you are familiar with the way halacha works, many things are not stated outright, but there is a system of drashos which the early rabbis used to derive laws from the Torah, and that system is part of the oral tradition which we believe was transmitted to Moshe along with the written Torah. Therefore, technically speaking, anything derived through that system will generally have the status of being derived directly from the Torah.
It is commonly said that women must cover their heads because it is not tznius, etc. I do not believe this to be so, or at least the primary reason. We don’t generally qualify laws derived from the Torah with reasons, because at the end of the day, since it wasn’t something enacted by the rabbis, any reason we give would be pure speculation, as God didn’t tell us his reason. What we can do, is look at the halacha from a legal perspective, figure out all of the technical details and loopholes, and then, after all that, we see the overall picture and think to ourselves, how can we find personal meaning in this halacha? But this has to come after the halacha is established with all its technicalities, not before, because how can we allow ourselves to be biased by a reason that is pure speculation?
Why some of the wives of great people didn’t cover their hair, is a good question. Maybe since everyone was doing it, the rabbis decided to pick their battles and just keep quiet about this. I don’t really have a definitive answer, but the halacha is still clear, from the Gemara down to the Shulchan Aruch, that women are required to cover their heads when they leave the house. Inside the house is a different story, and may quite possibly be permitted.
As an aside, I am not a rav and this is not a psak, but from my understanding of the halacha your method of covering your head is fine.
Lomed Mkol Adam-
You have either never read the book or you are ignorant in the hashkafos of litvishe yeshivos. The book is nothing other than an elegant and eloquent interpretation of Sha’ar Daled of Nefesh Hachayim, and that is clear to anyone that has gone through the yeshiva system and heard the classic shmuessin on the value and the purpose of limud hatorah.
And please, “traditional litvishe haskafa” does not talk about “hergesh” and what not. Case in point, learning lishma means l’sheim torah, not l’shem shamayim, as unfeeling as that sounds. There’s a reason for the term “kalte litvak.”
The same reason why he most probably pronounces it hama’ariv arovim and not hama’areev aroveem. And ?????? ??? ???? ?????? why rock n’ roll singers pronounce it baybeh and not baybee. It’s the evolution of language my friend.
Chacham-
I am quite familiar with the teshuva of R’ Moshe and it is a case in point, he clearly holds that all year round music is not allowed whatsoever, and singing to oneself is – at the least – not allowed if it is someone who sings on a regular basis. He ends off with a note that even according to the ?????? one should not listen to music during sefira (and he conspicuously does not mention the three weeks). But this is clearly not his opinion l’halacha.
What I was pointing out to giggle girl was not that she may not listen to music, I know there are people who attempt to be melamed zchus, and I am not coming to be ???? ??? on klal yisroel. It just happens to be that this is one of the stranger minhagim for which it isn’t easy for anyone who knows the sugya to come up with a legitimate limud z’chus, and that people say ???? ????? is muttar in the three weeks seems quite strange as well.
If I am not mistaken, in a word, the Modern Orthodox ideal is integration, while the Chareidi ideal is segregation.
Another major differentiation – secular knowledge in and of itself can be part of a person’s growth as a Jew according to the MO, while the Chareidi view is that although it may be acceptable in order to learn a trade or to learn to be able to help others, college would never be acceptable in a world where food came down from heaven and no one ever got sick.
Both groups believe in the Torah one hundred percent, and the fact that there are extremists and fringe elements and people who don’t uphold what they officially believe in both factions does not change this fact.
So does the dictionary
unless you have expertise in english, latin, and certain basic philosophical concepts, don’t bother trying.
I beg to differ. While a high level of vocabulary is certainly necessary if you don’t want to be running back and forth to your dictionary to find out the meanings of “axiological” and “ontological,” it should be understandable to an intelligent person, which I trust Gavra is. There are a couple of Latin phrases thrown in every now and then but they are mainly words that have already made their way into mainstream academic/legal jargon, and many times their meaning is also understandable from the context, but either way, you can find them all in the dictionary.
kylbdnr-
The best thing is to find a new habit to occupy yourself with until this is out of your system enough that it won’t be a constant yetzer hara. Even if you fall a few times don’t worry about it, as long as you try to focus on finding something else to occupy your head.
Do you have anything else you are interested in? That’s the first place to start.
Oy vey. Noting your confusion I don’t know if you should be paskening sheilos about aino ben yomo…
Lol. Maybe he holds of the whole texting on Shabbos thing…
Oops, you are right. I missed that she said it was for a pareve soup. I stand corrected.
Check a dictionary.
popa-
She said the spoon was used within 24 hours. However, I am still not convinced that your psak wasn’t correct.
gavra_at_work-
Any real litvak would thoroughly enjoy Halakhic Man. I found it to be a virtual Nefesh Hachayim with commentary. It’s straight up litvishe hashkafah.
BSD-
Please, ask a rav and get a psak. Even if you are going to only ask the rav who you think will give you a specific answer, it’s still better than deciding on your own, because this is the kind of thing that either way you go you will be questioning yourself for the rest of your life if you went about it the right way, and your child may also question you in years to come, but if you go to a rav and tell yourself you will accept his psak no matter what, you’ll be afforded peace of mind and maintain your child’s trust.
Giggle girl-
I was hinting at another issue which is a bit complicated. I’m not sure it’s worth getting into, but I’ll give you some basic background.
The truth is that according to the most basic understanding of the Halacha as it appears in the Shulchan Aruch – we’re not allowed to listen to music, or even sing, all year round, unless we are singing praises to Hashem, out of mourning for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash.
It is very hard to rationalize the fact that seemingly practically no one seems to keep this Halacha.
Also, it isn’t really brought down in any of the source Halacha S’forim (Tur, Shulchan Aruch, Rema etc.) not to listen to music in the 3 weeks or the 9 days. The obvious reason why, is because it’s already not allowed! Therefore the current minhag of many of us Jews not to listen to music in the three weeks and the three weeks alone, is quite strange and needs to be explained. And the fact that people only don’t listen to music, but do sing, makes it even stranger, because the actual halacha which is seemingly supposed to be kept all year round is on singing too.
Don’t worry, I am not telling you you can’t listen to music all year round; ask your practical halacha questions to your rav. Just giving you some technical background.
bombmaniac-
I agreed with you that people tend to “justify” to the extreme. But I also believe and was trying to point out that people “vilify” to the extreme as well, for various reasons, and I was questioning whether you were not doing that yourself.
I commend you for your well-written post. You demonstrate clearly and eloquently how many people have a skewed perspective when it comes to dealing with such a difficult and delicate issue.
Surely you are right that some people feel the need for justifying the crime. But another thing people need, and maybe this comes from that same place deep inside; someone to blame. How difficult is it to face a horrific tragedy when there is no one to blame? Having no one to blame can make life feel so meaningless and arbitrary, it can penetrate the deepest essence of a person.
Gavra means man. To call a boy a man is a positive thing I would think. Like, he stands up for himself and such.
giggle girl-
Don’t worry, if you read carefully into what I wrote you’ll see that I didn’t say there is a problem with singing in the nine days.
I once read a study that said that listening to classical music raised people’s IQ by up to seven points or so.
Zemanim Hotline – 718-331-8463
If indeed there is an issur of listening to music, I have a hard time understanding why even singing would be muttar, never mind acapella.
If anyone here knows the sugya please shed some light.
The reason for that gemara is the halacha of ??? ????? ??????. It’s because your intent is simply to advertise. I think that the heat and the cold mentioned is clearly lav davka, one is chayav for sha’atnez on a belt too. I don’t think you should have a problem with any kind of tzitzis, provided that your intent is to wear it.
Tell her that Hashem destroyed the Beis Hamikdash bacause of sin’as chinam etc. but the reason he chose that day specifically was to remind us of our mistakes in order that we remember to better ourselves, because that is the purpose of galus.
In general I think this is the approach to be taken with such midrashim, they are not said so much as to tell us historical facts as they are to give us a perspective on our current situation. It’s almost as if the chachamim are giving us mussar, saying “Look, you cried then, and it’s no wonder you’re still crying now, you still haven’t bettered yourselves!”
modchebp-
I agree with you.