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I don’t think there is an “inyan” for this, as in a source in Torah literature etc. However, it is a valid point. It is a good thing to focus on one thing at a time, otherwise you’ll never experience anything. Imagine in a few years you’re leaning back on your recliner and taking in past experiences in your life. You’ll want to know that you lived the happy times to their fullest, and the sad times too. This way it might just be all muddled.
Lol, I guess his Satmar curriculum didn’t include English.
MiddlePath-
Btw, thanx for the compliment 🙂
I am doing a good deed because I love G-d, and want to show my love by following His commands.
While in principle I agree with this, I believe it is an oversimplification.
One might say that the purpose of not murdering your friend when you are angry is to show your love to God. On some level this is true, but not directly. Allow me to explain.
I love the rain too! I love when I’m wearing clothing I don’t mind getting wet, and I can just walk in the rain and get drenched. And I enjoy the rain pouring down on my windshield, I don’t know, I find it soothing.
MiddlePath-
Your questions are excellent. Not that I have complete clarity in these issues, and no matter what, I think for any human being these concepts will always be seen through an ???????? ????? ?????, but there are some notes.
First, I think you would benefit greatly from reading Rambam. ???? ?????, his introduction to Avos, is a great place to start, and there is an English version available as well. Also, in his ????? ??????? in ??? the Rambam explains at length how we are supposed to understand reward and punishment etc. Then there is also the Moreh of course, and I could give you some ???? ?????? if you are interested.
Second, regarding your comment about morality: While it is true that there can be an unbeliever who lives a moral life by our definition, his morality is relative. That is not to say he won’t live and die by his morals. It is simply to say that those morals are subject to time and place, and every society in history has had different things they believed were right and wrong. Also, without being grounded in a belief that “God said so,” a thinking person’s mind can lead him anywhere. Nietzsche believed that there should be a master class that should be allowed to do whatever they see fit and only the rest of the world should have rules, and they should be slaves to the master class. I don’t know what he would have said about the Holocaust but you can certainly see how according to his line of thinking you might end up with people saying that there was nothing “immoral” about it. For any moral to be real, it needs to be grounded, and the only thing that can truly ground a moral is simply that “God said so.”
LMA-
yungerman1-
My partial solution is to have girls start going out when they turn 21.
anon1m0us-
You still need to include a percentage of girls that do marry boys who are 18. I think we had this calculation topic before. Let’s not get into it again. But according to your numbers, do you suggest boys dating earlier when they are not ready?
ha ha ha ha-
You mean like it says in Sefer Shoftim? (21:25)
?????????? ????? ???? ?????? ????????????? ????? ????????? ?????????? ????????
You definitely have very prominent rabbis to rely on. Be that as it may, as I stated previously it is proper and good to have one rabbi who you follow in all areas of halacha.
yeshivabochur123-
That’s not the main age argument. The most basic age argument is very simple and cannot be denied. It is as follows:
Each year, more frum/yeshivishe people are born than the year before. This is a fact. So, for argument’s sake, let’s say 1000 such babies were born in 1989, and 1200 were born four years later in 1993. Let’s also assume for argument’s sake that exactly half are boys and half are girls. In the year 2011, the 1200 girls born are ready to go out – they are 18 years old. But who are they going out with? Not their own age, because the boys won’t start going out until they are 22 (let’s say). So they are stuck going out with the boys born in 1989 or earlier, which leaves them 200 short no matter which way you cut it. I haven’t heard of any adequate argument against this simple numbers problem, and it seems like the most basic cause of the “shidduch crisis.”
Oy vey is way underage anyway, according to what he wrote on a different thread. If I remember correctly he’s 15.
Welcome, charliehall!
I give up.
LuVmyFaM-
Do you and your husband have a rav? Every sefer is nice to learn from, but you need to know that rabbanim occasionally disagree with each other, as in this case, where some will say like the Yalkut Yosef and some will strongly disagree and say that a wig is absolutely l’chatchilah and you have nothing to worry about. I recommend that you have one rav who you follow in all aspects of halacha (not really my own recommendation, the gemara says so), so you won’t be like a blind person groping in the dark each time you hear of one person who is extremely machmir.
msseeker-
Yeah, like, lemaiseh: How’s it working out for you? Is your brand of Orthodoxy successful with its Hashkafa? Is it strong, viable, confident enough about passing on its legacy to future generations intact?
That’s a nice question, but I don’t think it is really relevant at this point of the discussion. You don’t (or shouldn’t) always believe in a hashkafa because it’s “succesful,” you believe it because you believe it. Now that you believe it, you figure out ways to keep the community intact without sacrificing what you believe in. But numbers don’t prove whether something is a valid hashkafa or not, which is what I thought this debate was about.
??? ???? ??? ?????
– famous words of the Rambam in the beginning of ???? ?????.
Chacham, it’s possible this isn’t your type of place, but you could probably find a shiur in Ner Yisroel that would go at that pace.
LMA-
I’ll quote you one line; the rest you can read yourself.
???? ??? ????? ????, ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ???
Start from the first perek in Sha’ar Daled and just keep reading, with an open mind. I think you’ll find it clear that he does not understand the concept of ????? ????? the way Ramchal does.
Chacham, check out a few of the mid-sized yeshivas in Lakewood and surrounding areas. I don’t know where you are from but we did not go that slow (In BMG many chaburas learning the yeshiva masechta yes, but I’m referring to the post high-school yeshivos – it seems you’re from that age group). It was more like 10 blatt a zman first seder and 25-30 second seder. And learning bekius bein hasedorim was always encouraged.
I stated clearly the Chareidi point of view, that there is a Torah concept of creating a separation for Jews, and the purpose of this is in order to lay the groundwork for a Jew to become connected to Hashem. Then I brought sources from the Torah/Gemara which mention this concept with its understanding.
Yet you insisted on going further and saying a whole pshat in the contrast between Chareidi’ism and Modernism (If I may use those terms). That isn’t relevant to a debate. State your case, base it in something, let others try and argue, defend your position, and move on. Everything else is just politics and bashing and not the point of an intellectually honest debate.
Also, Mesilas Yishorim and Nefesh Hachaim come from the same Bais Medrash. The Vilna Gaon, the Rebbe of the Nefesh Hachaim, said that the first ten chapters of the Mesillas Yishorim were written with Ruach Hakodesh.
Be that as it may, as I said, the MY is not the Litvishe primer. Moreover, a Litvak reading MY will interpret things differently than a Chosid. Listen, if we had an argument about a halacha and your source was a mefurashe halacha in Shulchan Aruch and mine was a pasuk in Yirmiyah, you would have the better rayah. Obviously we believe in Yirmiyah, but at the end of the day our interpretation of the halacha is going to generally follow the SA and as for the rayah from Yirmiyah – “nu nu.” Nobody is arguing that the MY is a sefer accepted by the Litvishe oilam. It is no Tanya. But it isn’t the Nefesh Hachayim either. And from the way I’ve been taught in my litvishe yeshivos and from what I’ve read in Sha’ar Daled of NH, your idea of dveikus is entirely misconstrued.
The latest Lipa.
Two anecdotes:
My rav told me that when he was learning in BMG the oilam used to learn 35 blatt first seder and 35 blatt second seder each zman and R’ Aharon used to get upset at them for going so slow…
I heard R’ Yosef Tendler (Ner Israel) say over that he was once shmoozing with R’ Shneur (they were both kollel yungerleit at the time) and R’ Shneur told him that he once asked his grandfather, R’ Isser Zalman, what is the proper way to learn? R’ Isser Zalman told him, “one blatt a week be’iyun, and seven blatt a day bekius…”
Chacham-
I don’t know how old you are, but in NIRC there are shiurim that go much faster than the average American yeshiva. For example, I was in R’ Tvi Berkowitz’s shiur for BK and we got up to daf chaf alef or so (other yeshivas are lucky to get past daf vav) first seder.
LMA-
This debate is stupid. You are making pshetlach based on hanachos that have no source. You are wrong about MO, and as GAW points out you are very wrong about “Chareidim” unless we are only talking about Chassidim. And by the way, regardless of how many yeshiva bachurim learn Mesilas Yesharim, it is not the Litvishe primer. Nefesh Hachayim is. Therefore, citations from MY are not adequate evidence of a Litvishe Hashkafa, because they might be contradicted in NH.
At any rate, this is not the way of an intelligent debate. What you should be doing is what the gemara does. You don’t compare your view to his. First you state your view and state your source. Then he tries to upshlug it. You argue it out until you are either firmly supported in your stance or defeated, but all the while you don’t even mention his stance, because it isn’t relevant. Then, after that is done, he says his position, and you go through the process again. Look up any gemara debating the source of a halacha and you’ll see this is the way it’s done, and this is the most logical and honest way to do it.
real-brisker-
As a real Brisker aren’t you aware of the minhag in Brisk not to say good Shabbos from minchah onward? Maybe this has something to do with it.
Toi-
Metzius.
You’re welcome 🙂
Thanx GAW
http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A7_%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%94
(All I did was google it in Hebrew)
I don’t want to hijack this thread but there’s a point I want to make so I put it on another thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/a-critique-of-contenders
What exactly is the point of debate? To “prove” the other side wrong? And then what? Do you think they will all move over to the other side? Of course they won’t. Ten books will immediately sprout up justifying their side’s cause and demonstrating how the other side used dishonest debate techniques in order to win, etc. etc. It will just cause machlokes, and we have enough of that already.
If you wanted to do something productive, than have these two sides sit down in a room together and try to work out a way to promote more tolerance within their circles. But debate won’t get you anywhere.
kylbdnr-
What about Blue Fringe, Moshav Band, Soulfarm, 8th day? Also, in more “mainstream” Jewish music, the more recent Lipa albums and Benny Friedman are quite enjoyable to the ear of someone used to current pop music.
Lol, for complex time signatures in rap you’re going to have to wait a while. But I do think it is evolving.
There’s nothing wrong with it. I think one of the frum periodicals actually had an article about this phenomenon recently.
anon1m0us-
Well you have the chance to implement it in your own life. If others don’t practice what they preach it is truly sad, but trust me you won’t gain anything by being tolerant to everyone but those who were intolerant to you. All you do is continue a vicious cycle. If you want the world to change the first thing to do is to work on yourself, to fargin even those who won’t fargin you.
WIY-
You are right.
I would still say that I still think many times people talk of “ahavas chinam” they are really talking about something which is not chinam, such as everything that falls under the rubric of ????? ????? ????. But you are right. ??????? ????? ??????, that is truly ahavas chinam.
Search 2011 London Riots on Wikipedia, it’ll tell you all about it. As Goq said it started because of a fatal police shooting, it was of a suspected cocaine dealer.
It happens to be that lately there has been a rise of musical sophistication in rap. Nothing unbelievable but sometimes the rapper will just branch off into a melodious shtickel and stick in a nice major or seventh or something. But it still ain’t Mozart.
I concur with aries2756
anon1m0us-
I am sorry about your story. There are plenty of litvishe yeshivos that do not fit that description, unless you are leaving out pivotal details. In most of the yeshivos I have been to most of the fathers of the class work for a living, and there was certainly no personal ridicule. Obviously the yeshivos have an ideal, right or wrong, that everyone should stay in learning, and they will promote that ideal because they believe in it, but I have not seen much personal ridicule.
Perhaps they were wrong anyway. But just in the interest of trying to restore some peace to our nation, wouldn’t it be best that instead of saying that others have sin’as chinam and need to work on it, we just work on it ourselves? The test of a tolerant person is if he is tolerant to those who are intolerant toward him. And love can only breed where there is tolerance.