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On e/o else including other women the Biur Halacha says -“it became a Taanis Chova”.
I don’t think that’s much of an argument. These segments do not need to hold like that.
you can’t say there is a Minhag for certain segments not to fast except for pregnant and nursing, unless you find Achronim whom argue on the S’A and then you can be Someach on them.
Not true. You absolutely cannot call it a minhag shtus if l’maiseh they are clearly following the ruling of the Gemara, regardless if it accords with the Shulchan Aruch; al zeh amru minhag mevatel halacha as Sam is tayna-ing.
Also, cinderella, the reason we can do a melacha when there is a danger to one’s life, is because the same Torah that tells us to keep Shabbos, also tells us (Vayikra 18:5) “You shall observe my statutes and my ordinances, which a man shall do and live by them; I am Hashem.” The Rabbis derived from the words “and live by them” that with the exception of 3, the laws of the Torah were not intended for one who is in a situation of sakana, because we are meant to live by them, not die by them.
cinderella-
Without discussing your specific example (because I don’t think that it was your point), here’s what I think. Hashem gives us Shabbos for a reason, and He tells us the reason in the Torah. He wants us to acknowledge that he created the world and that he runs it. How does he get us to acknowledge that? By giving us a day of rest [on the seventh day of creation]. The restrictions have a reason, they are to insure that we become mindful of the fact that we are specifically resting and not just bored. When we figure out all the technical details and find the “loopholes” not only is it not against the spirit of the law, it’s exactly the spirit of the law! Because doing so keeps us mindful of the fact that there’s something going on that we should think about. If we were to say just be machmir on everything you would have a bunch of people sitting on the couch all day, but now that there is room for “loopholes” you have everyone discussing maybe this is okay because of this and this reason etc. and you end up with everyone being very cognizant of the fact that it is Shabbos, and people start thinking hey what’s Shabbos all about anyway, and they remember what Hashem wanted us to remember in the first place.
sam4321 – Baruch tihye, you’re welcome.
eli9-
It does appear that that is what he is saying; that is how I understood it too. As of now I can’t think of a good answer to your question.
Let me guess… GumBall? No wait that can’t be. PrincessEagle? I don’t know, I give up. Is it a guy? It’s Popa isn’t it! This should be interesting.
Wait, is it the Goq?
In the 20’s, the JTS and RIETS were both having a building campaign. Donors wanted to know why they had to support two rabbinical schools, it’s not as if there were that many budding rabbis in America at the time; why couldn’t the two just merge? So Rabbi Dr. Bernard Revel got up YU’s parlor meeting and gave an impassioned speech about how we are different from them. They manufacture rabbis, we learn Torah lishma! Believe it or not, that night he raised over $750,000, a huge amount in those days, if I got my stories straight (it’s in his biography).
Alei Shur
Sam2, I’m 23 and the same.
sam4321-
The Gemara in Chullin (44b) says ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? (????? ???, ?) ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? and the Meiri and the Maharsha respectively both explain the Gemara in Chullin in the manner you quoted from the Darchei Teshuva.
Good for you.
Popa – I can understand what you mean about the tone. However if you can get past that, the Seridei Eish book is a real page turner. It’s worth reading just for the footnotes. I was so fascinated that when I was done I went straight to the store and bought a Seridei Eish and started reading! Ha. Btw the name of the book is “Between the Yeshiva World and Modern Orthodoxy.” Sounds like it was written by a lurker of the CR…
Thanx, and sure.
Sam – I hear. As long as someone is maskim 🙂
Kalamazoo
Health-
Perhaps a simple limud zechus:
From the Gemara in Rosh Hashana (18b) it comes out that when the Jews are being ruled by the non-Jews but there is no ????? ??? if Klal Yisroel wants to fast they do and if not not. The reason we all fast today, brings the MB, is because Klal Yisroel has accepted upon themselves to fast. Perhaps the “minhag” of these segments of Klal Yisroel came about because they hold that the women never accepted upon themselves to fast, similar to what many say about ma’ariv.
MODS: If possible, please delete my previous post. This is the revised and fuller version.
Ok, here is the complete perek. I hope the Rama will forgive me if I have made any mistakes.
[to yibum]
[And the son of a slave-woman does not inherit] unless he says I initially freed his mother, [and then he is believed]
[casually]
AND IF WE DO know that he designated her for him, we have not heard that the Rambam and his company should talk of her to disqualify the child, for they spoke generally of the standard slave-woman who is content with being vacant. Thus the disagreement has been dissolved and all the words of the Sages are well-established.
[the son] [even]
Popa- Me too, great read. Have you read his book on the Seridei Eish? Not shayich.
[to yibum]
[And the son of a slave-woman does not inherit] unless he says I initially freed his mother, [and then he is believed]
[casually]
AND IF WE DO know that he designated her for him, we have not heard that the Rambam and his company should talk of her to disqualify the child, for they spoke generally of the standard slave-woman who is content with being vacant. Thus the disagreement has been dissolved and all the words of the Sages are well-established.
Ok, here goes. I did my best and tried to keep it as exact as possible, but it wound up a bit free at spots. I did keep some simple words, if you are unfamiliar with them just say so and I’ll write up a short glossary of terms. This is until the bottom paragraph of the second page, I hope to finish it tomorrow. Just gotta get some shut-eye now:) Oh and please excuse me if there are spelling or grammatical errors, I am falling asleep now and only posting this part just in case you want it already. Iy”h I’ll fix it up tomorrow.
Itche, about the academic English, LOL, yup.
Do they have a mechitza or not?
Sam2-
Gemara. And I made it! I basically skimmed through the technical shemita gemaras etc. I’m kind of embarrassed that I spent so much time not paying attention to the davening though. But it’s not my fault they drag it out so long. Don’t expect me to finish Yoma on Yom Kippur though…
Something I was pondering, maybe someone can help me:
The Gemara (17a) says that “rav chesed” means (acc. to Beis Hillel) that Hashem leans toward kindness. How does he do this? There is a three way machlokes. R’ Eliezer says he pushes down the scale of good deeds. R’ Yose bar Chanina says no, what he does is he lifts up the scale of bad deeds. D’bei R’ Yishmael says you got it all wrong! What he does is each time a bad deed comes he puts it on the scale for a second and then quickly takes it away!
Clearly there is some hidden meaning in this Gemara I just can’t seem to figure it out. Anyone?
Coffee addict – Go vaiter, you’ll see Sam2 is right.
Thank you, hello99, for giving the answer you gave.
Wow ok I’ll try to do it tonight. Great job ItcheSrulik, if I redo the first page it isn’t because I don’t like yours, it’s just because it’ll be easier for me that way to get the feel of it.
Lol. #2 is really good 🙂
No problem. I actually didn’t even know the first volume was on HebrewBooks. The second one is relatively new, it came out Pesach time this past year, so that’s probably why it didn’t make it there yet.
Thank you for all you do!
Sure, I do it too. I usually daven at a shul that’s done before 1; this year I’m davening at a shul that probably won’t be done before 2:30. I’m hoping to go through the whole Masechta Rosh Hashana, we’ll see how far I get.
Queen Bee – I agree, that’s also very true. Shana tova:)
I agree with Queen Bee. Guys do seem to take it harder, when they were genuinely involved in the relationship. The reason girls seem to take it harder a lot of the time is because the guy never cared, and that is unfortunately more common that way than the other way around. But when the guy really does care I think the trend is that guys are more obsessive and more prone to sink into a really bad state of heartbreak/depression after a break-up.
Yes, if you post a link I’ll try and post a translation right here. As long as no one beats me to it 😉
ill_be_strong-
No, it was more the general trend; a vibe I got. But I hear you. And I apologize if I misjudged you.
Sapphire-
In that case, if I am understanding you correctly, I honestly don’t think it’s a bad thing. The Gemara darshens the words “[and you shall love Hashem] with all of your heart” and says it means “with your yetzer tov and your yetzer hara.” How can you serve Hashem with your yetzer hara? Exactly this way. You take jealousy, a power of the yetzer hara, and you channel it to be envious of the good attributes of others. The Gemara says that one should always involve oneself in Torah and Mitzvos without the right intentions (e.g. in order to be looked upon nicely by others, etc. – Rashi), because it will ultimately lead to the right intentions. Don’t feel bad that something you are doing might be partially a result of envy and not purely because you are “holding there.” That’s a natural way of growth. The Midrash says that when Hashem created the world, he created the yetzer tov, but the world wasn’t good yet, then he created the yetzer hara, and the world was good. Seems so counter-intuitive! But it’s along the same lines; without the yetzer hara very, very few people would ever grow. It’s those “wrong” intentions that start us off on the right path, which lead to us becoming better people.
Everything I have written is straight out of the Me’iri on Pirkei Avos (I don’t have the exact source offhand), though I have seen similar things written elsewhere as well.
ill_be_strong-
I haven’t formed any strong opinions either way, I was only noting that it seemed to me you were spending a lot of time talking about the way you believe he forms his opinions and why that way is wrong. Sounded patronizing to me. I think Popa has a pretty good head and your bashing rather then concise responses gave me the impression of someone being defensive of a pre-conceived notion without being willing to listen. That’s all, and maybe I completely missed the boat.
My pleasure 🙂
hello99 and Sam2-
1) On the subject of ???? ?????? ?????, I wanted to bring a raya to this din of the Issur v’Heter from Rashi, who writes (Chullin 88a):
?????? ?? ????? ??’ – ???”? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????
Accordingly one could infer that should something give ta’am it would be batel mid’oraisa after 60 from zaroa beshelah if you hold that it is a real drasha, even if you don’t consider it ta’am kalush, v’doik heitev.
2) On the subject of 60 by sakanta, I’m not in the sugya, but having just gone through reicha I can tell you it’s a mefurashe Ran (Chullin 32b b’dafei haRif) that 60 is not enough. He says so to explain the gemara in Pesachim (76b) that to eat fish roasted with meat is a problem even according to Levi. However, the mechaber does not pasken like this, because in 97:3 he just says one may not eat the fish with milk, mashma that the fish alone is fine. Being that we hold l’chatchila that even though reicha is nothing it’s still a mah shehu (Rema 108:1), and the Rema is quiet in 89, I would therefore conclude ???? ????? that l’ma’aseh sakanta is also batel in 60, as hello99 assumed.
However, ??????? that someone is madche this raya from 89 and says that the mechaber only said it that way because he was discussing basar b’chalav. ?”?.
Sapphire-
If you are talking about qualities that are not really possible for you to acquire, such as looks, personality, etc., then perhaps what you really need to work on is not overcoming jealousy but rather recognizing the value of you. I don’t know you from a hole in the wall but I am sure that you are a unique, special individual, who just needs to refocus a little and recognize his/her(?) own value. There are plenty of books on this subject, because it is something a lot of people tend to lose perspective on. Rabbi A. J. Twerski’s books are very good, and I’m sure others here have more recommendations.
Ask the mods for my email and send it to me, I’ll try to do it. And no need to pay.
Lol Goq 🙂
Simply from the extremely patronizing tone of ill_be_strong I’m inclined to agree with popa whose responses are actually straight to the point.
Pashuteh Yid-
????? – ?????? ?????? ????
ROTFL
I think the Orchos Tzadikim has a section on it called ??? ?????.
And I eat animals because I love them so much…
Yankel comes to shul one morning, and at the end of davening he gets up and makes an announcement:
“Hashem, make me win the lottery, and I promise I will give half of it to tzedaka!”
Then he goes out to buy his lottery ticket, and as could be expected, he doesn’t win.
Thoroughly dejected, Yankel walks into the local church. When the services are completed he stands up and makes a similar announcement:
“Yoshke, make me win the lottery, and I promise I will give half of it to charity!”
He buys his afternoon ticket, and lo and behold, he has the winning numbers!
That evening, as the town is abuzz with the news of their newest millionaire, Yankel is spotted by his rabbi coming to daven ma’ariv at his regular minyan.
“Yankel!” exclaims the rabbi. “You still believe in coming to shul? I would think you’d be in church now!”
“Are you crazy?” says Yankel. “That guy actually believed that I’d give half of my winnings to tzedaka…”
Please excuse my spelling mistakes. I tried my best but I’m noticing it isn’t perfect.
hello99-
Ok here you go, I typed it out. Don’t expect this every time though 🙂
??”? ??”? ??’ ?”? ???? ?’.
??? ????? ??”?: ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???’, ?”?.
??”? ???? ??: ????? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ???”?. ??”? ??? ???????? ????? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ???”? ??”? ???? ?? ?? ?? ????, ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????, ??”? ???????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??.
??? ???”? ??? ?? ???? ???”? ?????? (?”? ??’ ?”?, ???? ??”? ????”? ??’ ?”?) ???? ??”?: ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???, ?? ???. ??”? ?????, ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????, ??? ?? ?? ?????? ???, ?”? ???? ?????? ?”? ????? ?????? ????. ??? ????? ???”? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????, ??? ???? ????, ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???????. [????, ??? ??? ??? ????? ???”? ??”?, ???? ????? ??”?: ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??’ ????? ????? (?”? ??:), ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ???????. ??”? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???, ??”?. ??? ????? ?”? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????, ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???’ ??????, ????”? ??????? ????].
????? ????”? ????? ????”? (?? ??. ??”? ????) ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????, ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????, ???”? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?????, ?????? ????? ????.
??? ?????? ???? (???? ?”?) ??? ?????????? ???? ????? ????? ?????????, ?????? ????? ????, ??? ?????”? (????? ?”?) ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????. ????? ???? ?????? (???? ?”? ???? ?”?, ??? ????? ?”?) ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??”?, ???? ?????.
??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??????, ??? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????, ?? ?? ?”? ??? ??????. ???”?.
Abelleh-
I am quite aware of what the Rambam says, and I have quoted his words often on the site. Here is a passage that ostensibly supports your claim, which I have cited at least once before (Guide 3:31):
???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??????, ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ???, ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ???’ ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ??????? ???, ???? ????? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ???, ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??????, ???? ??? ??? ??? ???. ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???, ????? ???’ ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????, ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ???, ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ???’. ????? ?? ?????, ??? ????? ???? ??, ??????? ???? ????????, ??? ?????? ????? ???’ ??? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? , ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???????, ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????, ??? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ???, ??? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??????. ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???, ??? ??? ???? ???? ???”? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ?????, ?? ????? ??? ??, ?? ?????? ??? ???, ?? ????? ???, ?? ?????? ????? ?????, ?? ?????? ????? ????.
Admittedly, the general trend of the Rambam’s words seem to observe a “moral value” in the laws of the Torah. However, if by “moral value” you mean a sentiment or feeling perceived inside a person, you are very wrong. Such might be the so-called opinion of some (psudeo-)philosophers of today, but the Rambam never held that.
In the above passage the Rambam states a list of values, which are:
?????? ??? ????? To give a true opinion
????? ??? ?? To remove a false opinion
?????? ??? ??? To give an order of integrity
????? ??? To remove injustice
?????? ????? ????? To teach good attributes
?????? ????? ???? To warn away from bad attributes
The Torah, according to the Rambam, gives credence to certain ideas, and to certain modes of action. He makes no mention of feelings. What I feel is good another might feel is bad and all of it might just be a product of our respective environments; to bring feelings into an intellectual discussion and brand them as truths is naive and untrue.
And just to bring it a little bit further, there is a passage from a letter from the Rambam to the ???? ????????? (it can be found in the Igros Harambam ed. Shilat Vol. II p. 479) which reads as follows:
Basically there are three things that are worth believing in; logic, the five senses, and something told to you by a person whose perception of reality is greater than yours. But to believe that a moral feeling is an accurate representation of truth? That’s foolishness at best and egocentricity at worst.
Therefore the question of the OP is a non-question, and I stand by my original answer.
twisted-
Derech eretz is not a “moral” directive in the sense the word is being used here. There is a whole masechta (albeit k’tana, found after Talmud AZ and Horayos) called ???? ??? ??? that tells us many interesting rules of derech eretz such as ways of eating etc., things you wouldn’t say have anything to do with “morality.” The most simple translation, though it varies based on context, would be manners.
simcha613-
Why are you using the word “moral”? The Torah doesn’t say anything about it being moral or immoral. At one point it wasn’t permitted, then later it became permitted. End of story. Would it be as difficult for you to understand if at one point in history sha’atnez was permitted and at another it was prohibited? It shouldn’t be. If it is, it’s probably because there is a lot more personal feeling in this question as there is intellectual detachment.
Toi-
About basar ta’ava, I don’t know why you would choose to pasken like R’ Yishmael over R’ Akiva. ???? ???? ????? ??????. At the very least you should mention that this is one opinion.