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OneOfMany-
It does go hand in hand with kadmus, and that is a concept which certain minority elements did try to fit into the Torah – I believe Ralbag was one of them. But obviously the consensus is not that way, and such a view is regarded by the mainstream as kefirah.
regardless, there is SOMETHING there that we ALL have, and that deserves respect.
Respect, yes, but why to be sad when it is lost? I respect my opponents too, that doesn’t mean I mourn their loss (I am not saying non-Jews are our opponents, I am making a conceptual comparison).
To clarify: I always thought
I’m not that into Kabbala, and the terms you are using and the distinctions between them are kabbalistic ideas. So I can’t really help you there.
WHY do so many people (including some people on this forum, apparently) use this as an excuse to regard goyim collectively with a general distrust and contempt?
You are absolutely right.
The distrust comes from fear as a result of thousands of years of persecutions. Contempt for non-Jews collectively has no excuse; maybe it’s a defense mechanism. Either way, “eisav sonei l’yaakov” is most definitely not absolute.
Here’s a good one for you:
??? ???? = ??? ????? ???
Yet others disagreed.
If these were actual pesukim they would come up in a Google search, and they don’t. Moreover, I am curious to know from the beki’im in Tanach over here if the word ?????? is ever used in this context in Tanach. In Modern Hebrew, it means terrorists. How convenient.
OneOfMany –
What logical reason could goyish philosophers have for supporting that consensus?
They don’t of course. They didn’t believe in ????? ????? at all.
As for your quote from NH, when it comes down to it you are saying that there is nothing inherently Godly within every human being, only that humans have an attribute that God also has. Which can answer your “cheilek Eloka” question, though I’m not altogether sure what that means.
The axiom ??? ???? ????? is not to say that this is how they are programmed. It is an after-the-fact acknowledgement of the situation. In fact Rashi (Bereishis 33:4) says it isn’t always true. Non-Jews have freewill too. If they didn’t, then there would be no reason for righteous non-Jews to have a share in the World-to-Come, which they do.
designated hitter?
mikehall12382-
If you happen to be referring to my posts, keep an open mind.
OneOfMany – Sorry I was unclear, I didn’t mean they discussed Jewish individuals, I meant they discussed all human beings, and there may have been elements in the Jewish community who were willing to entirely concede to them, but the consensus amongst us has seems to have been that at least for Jews, there is ????? ?????.
And I do hear what you are saying about being created in God’s image. However you really have to define what exactly that means, because if it is indeed something so uniquely special in each individual then why would there be no hashgacha on it?
soliek – I feel like a lot of kiruv people make this mistake. But you probably didn’t blow it for the long term, because he probably let the whole incident go anyway. So don’t worry about it. In the future however I would suggest to stick to arguing for the sake of truth, even if that will (seemingly) not effect immediate actions.
R’ Bick tayna-ed that he should have to bentch Gomel for when his wife hung his pants out to dry, because had he been in them, he would probably fall and die…
GumBall – Charlie is making a very good point. You might not care if anyone knows where you are in your family, but you probably don’t want everyone knowing your name and address, and you shouldn’t. Giving away this kind of information can help a bad person figure out who you are, because now he has more to work with.
OneOfMany – One could argue that their collective worth is no more than the collective worth of oak trees. If one gets chopped down, big deal. Remember, many philosophers, Jewish and non-Jewish, were willing to entertain this idea even of Jewish individuals, although the mainstream always believed in ????? ????? for Jews. But yes, the idea of being created in God’s image does seem to set humans apart from other entities.
zahavasdad – What was the ??????
Oldest of eleven.
btw, boro park is NOT a borough
LOL
True, but what optimusprime cited is common knowledge.
OneOfMany –
There is what to debate about ????? ????? and ????? ?????, the question if Hashem actually cares about the particulars of a species or only about the generalities. The current trend of Jewish belief seems to be that with Jews Hashem is concerned with every individual, so we can say “each person has a specific value and purpose.” With a non-Jew, perhaps if it is a good person this is also true, but if not, we can sit here and argue for a long time as to whether or not his/her personal existence is meaningful.
Dr. Seuss –
It is semantics. Because as I tried to note, there isn’t really a difference.
This is just to be able to get to page 9 without starting from the beginning. I can’t figure out how to do that when the pages are exactly full.
That’s semantics. If you are fully aware and acknowledge that it is not a time to celebrate right now, by default you are allowing yourself to recognize a certain sense of sadness, which is one level of mourning.
Sam2-
Lav davka. They’ll probably all be megayer, we just won’t except their geirus. So they’ll hold they are mechuyav but we won’t, and there will be two camps of Jews, ergo ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????…
This is funny.
Mourning is primarily about acknowledging feelings of loss for someone. If you knew the goy personally, then you feel loss. There’s nothing wrong with that, and you should be in touch with your feelings. If you didn’t, then for a Jew of course one should try to realize a sense of loss, for haskafic reasons – i.e. the Jew had a unique purpose etc. For a goy, I’m sure one could engage in a lengthy debate about whether his existence is worthy to us on a hashkafic level etc., but Jothar makes a good point.
Abelleh – But there were real Tzedukim and Apikorsim in those days too, right? It’s just that judgmental people labelled people who weren’t in those groups as being in those groups. The reason this will not get anywhere is because those labelling others will just say that these are the real Tzedukim an Apikorsim of our generation, and you will have no response to that.
Haha. Good for you for cornering the guy, but your argument isn’t really that sound. Once you concede that the lulav shaking is arbitrary it’s kind of a moot point to claim that someone should do it “just in case.” I mean, sure, maybe we just happened to pick the right thing, but come on, there are an infinite amount of possibilities, and you think we just happened to guess right to swing some branches and a fruit back and forth? That’s not even something worth doing just in case, because by doing so you risk granting validity to foolish beliefs. If I were him I wouldn’t have given in so easily.
brotherofurs – This person you know; what kind of problems is he/she struggling with?
Dr. AYC –
Wow, that is so interesting. I just checked it up on Wikipedia and I never knew that. But I don’t know if it’s me though. I am always aware of every aspect of my personality and I rarely forget anything about anything. It’s just that I change gears and my values shift and different feelings are put into play but I know all this and am aware of it. When I answered the question on that questionnaire my mind was being very logical and analytical, yet I chose feelings because I am aware that this is me.
Oh and I apologize to everyone for my lapse into prose on this poetry thread. I’m not as talented as AYC to be able to make everything I want to say rhyme 🙂
Syag Lchochma – You’re welcome, and good for you for doing that. And I believe that if you are feeling lonely and you go visit a friend or relative or hug your kids, you are mekayem the mitzva of simchas Yom Tov the way it was intended, because you are relieving that loneliness – even if just a little bit.
AYC – The halachic basis for what I wrote about crying is here: http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9A_%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9F_%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%97_%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%A8%D7%A4%D7%97 – s’if 5 and 6. The rest was not from a specific sefer. And you’re welcome 🙂
Haha ok fine.
Definitely one of the best writers out there. He writes so eloquently and knows how to make his point in a way that is hard to disagree with, even if he is a bit controversial at times.
Go away. Have you posted a single thing today that wasn’t spiteful or inflammatory?
He holds like the Rambam
To all those who are crying “Pidyon Shevuyim,” there is an open and shut halacha in Shulchan Aruch (YD 252:4) that says:
??? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????, ??? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ??????.
Loosely translated: We do not redeem captives for more than their monetary value, as a “Tikkun Ha’olam” – so that the enemies won’t exert themselves to take captives.
I am sure there are other considerations, and I am not going to say that it was wrong. But it wasn’t Pidyon Shevuyim.
Filling a cavity is probably worse than refuah.
It’s a machlokes in the Mishnah in Nedarim (28a) if a shaved head is considered a ?????.
You are certainly not expected to feel giddy and joyful after such a loss. It is a mitzva to be proactive in trying to find ways to make yourself feel better. Yom Tov isn’t about faking happiness. It’s about making yourself happy. So if you know that crying is therapeutic, then cry (for the halachic basis for this – Rema OC 288, see Aruch Hashulchan). Read a book about dealing with loss. Drink some wine. Spend time with people who make you feel good. Again, there is no mitzva to put on a fake smile. Just to try to make yourself feel better. And while this is only an explicit mitzva on Yom Tov, it is a worthy attitude all year round.
Lol I see I was mechaven to Popa.
froth?
Fear is not rational. A decision based on the facts, might be. But that was probably your question.
am yisrael chai – 🙂
Princess – I’m a complicated guy – lol. You could probably infer from the majority of my posts on this site that I don’t see emotions and for that matter the arts (such as poetry) as meaningful, but that wouldn’t really be true. And to be honest, I recently answered in a questionnaire online that ultimately I trust feelings over reason. Basically I’m saying I have different tracks, and on different levels I feel and even “believe” different things. I’m always aware of the other tracks, but I’m not always “in it.” For some reason when I’m “in” poetry, I become aware of all those painful feelings. But it’s like I’m watching a movie of myself, I’m very aware but I’m not actually feeling it, in truth I’m feeling very calm and even dreamy. Weird. I don’t know if I’m making sense. But anyway, to answer your question, I do have options and I probably appear emotionally healthy and I do reflect on other things too. Maybe one day my poetry track will be upgraded to include those other, more positive reflections.
Princess – Thanx. It’s kind of a painful expression. It’s about frustration, and longing for something to fill a void, and a reflection of the time lost while obsessed with that and other unfulfilling enterprises.
I’m not judging you. But if you ever want to try to convince any thinking person of anything, you’re going to have to tone it down.
GumBall – Keep it up. You make me smile too. Don’t listen to those people.
I know what you meant.
I was facetiously trying to point out that this isn’t the way to make an argument, as strongly as you feel about it. No one will ever listen to you if you start off with the sentence you did.
Pressure is not good. Knowing that your younger sibling is already married might put pressure on you. But knowing that he/she is waiting for you will also put pressure on you. What to do?
The truth is I think the only reason Older (who is single) will feel pressure seeing Younger married with a kid is because there is this idea out there that life means that you graduate elementary school, graduate high school, do some time in Yeshiva/Seminary, get married, have kids, lead them through this process, help out with the grandkids in the same process, play some slots in Florida, and die. So Older feels pressured because Younger is one step ahead in this great process even though Older started first. As much as we tell ourselves we are individuals, unique, original, blah blah blah, how much do people really believe that? If we did we would live in the moment and stop running. Stop moving along this endless process and actually experience something and live it. If people would be imbued with this idea then perhaps when Older graduates from being a child his/her first though would not be “Ok, what am I expected to do now?” But rather, “What do I want to be, and how do I go about making that happen?” Maybe then girls would not care to get married at eighteen, and maybe they’d decide to pursue a college degree first. Hey, simply crunching the numbers that would solve a big part of the Shidduch Crisis. And Older wouldn’t be able to care less if Younger goes out first, because life isn’t a race, and each person is the main character in their own story. Ok that last bit was a bit cheesy. The point is, well, I don’t know what the point is. I’ve been ranting. I forgot what I was talking about.
It’s a fact that it’s pronounced cholent and not chulent, and it isn’t up for debate. And if you don’t believe me, well hey, the Mesilas Yesharim says there are many facts everyone knows but still don’t keep to, because they are not on the forefront of their minds.
Definintely fress away. Just make sure you’re not too full for the meal. Though as Popa bar Abba, you probably won’t be.
yungerman1-
Someone I know has a magnet in their house that says “If a man says something in the forest and there is no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?”
I just want to make a point which is not up for debate because its a fact.
Hmm…
some people listen to music in a manner that wouldn’t be covered by any Heterim
What kind of music are you talking about?
1) Before any Yom Tov that comes out before Shabbos.
2) Set aside a cooked item, like an egg, and a baked item, like a roll, make the bracha and say the declaration you can find in the siddur.
3) The head of the household or his assignee.
4) Everyone who eats in your house.
5) Before Yom Tov begins.
6) You can just leave it aside, no need to eat it. But if you want you may eat it on Shabbos.
7) In order that you should be able to prepare for Shabbos while it’s still Yom Tov.
8) If you live in a community with a rabbi, then don’t worry. He makes an eruv for everybody which you may rely on if you forgot, were stuck and weren’t able to, don’t have any idea how to make an eruv, or lost your eruv.
If not-
If you remember on the first day: Since technically we are keeping two days of Yom Tov because we aren’t sure which is the right day, what you do is you make the eruv with a condition – before you make the declaration say “if today is Yom Tov, then I don’t need an eruv, but if tommorow is Yom Tov [then in truth I’m allowed to make an eruv today, and], then this should be my eruv.” Then continue with the declaration.
If you remember on the second day: You cannot make an eruv anymore. But you need to prepare for Shabbos, so what do you do? If you’re able to, just cook extra of whatever you are cooking for the Yom Tov meal, and leave it on the fire for Shabbos. If you won’t be comfortable with that or it won’t be enough, then you can cook whatever you want as long as you make sure to eat a bit of everything before Yom Tov (and the same idea would apply to any other preparations, i.e. carrying something somewhere). This way you can say it’s technically preparing for Yom Tov. It is a loophole, but completely valid, and in halacha we regard the mitzva of enjoying oneself on Shabbos worth finding loopholes to uphold, and that’s not even taking into account other important considerations, such as shalom bayis.
mdd-
I was’t agreeing that the svara applies, I was simply giving a mareh makom to it.
And I am not sure it does apply, because here it is worse than your classic lifnei iver. When you pass a piece of eiver min hachai to a goy or a glass of wine to a nazir, l’ma’aseh all you are doing is giving him the opportunity to sin. But here you are actually being megareh the yetzer hara within people, so I could very well hear that it would be more chamur.
I don’t mean to say they mamash don’t keep it, rather that they keep a version of it not paskened in Shulchan Aruch.