littleapple –

I should have been more clear. I meant high probability as in at least a majority of cases, and even that possibly isn’t sufficient to establish the issur of lifnei iver.

Obviously as common as “toeiva marriages” are they have not reached that level and won’t reach it anytime soon. And as apushatayid points out, we are talking about something far less common than even that.

aries2756 –

All of the considerations you mention are valid and important ones. The point is though that the rabbanim are not blind or deaf and they are taking in the same information that you are. Therefore, if you concede that the rabbanim care, are honest, are pretty intelligent, and know Halacha, then you will not vilify them this way.

A couple of points:

Rabbonim do NOT want to speak to victims. They do NOT want to hear their stories. They do not want to dirty their hands, or desensitize their delicate ears with the harshness and filth of the truth these victims carry.

And by the way, MY Rav said to go to the police.

Then by all means do so. But did your rav say it was ok to bad-mouth other rabbanim?

Very well said.

For the CR suggestion box: There should be a “like” button under each post.

I don’t think he was being serious.

The historically true answer to the OP’s question probably goes back to the Tosafos mentioned on the first page.

Sam2 –

Well said.

Sam2 and yichusdik –

How does it answer the question if at the end of the day he doesn’t know which one we will actually choose? That’s like saying I know tomorrow’s winning numbers because I know all the possibilities. But I still lemayseh don’t know tomorrow’s numbers, so there’s something deficient in my knowledge.

I tend to assume the Rambam’s approach as frustrating as it can be.

We understand that God doesn’t have hands and feet, yet the Torah talks about him as if he does. The Rambam says that this is because the Torah talks in ways we can understand. But in truth God is not a being whose existence is on the same dimension as ours, it’s a different quality and not possible for us to comprehend. Like describing color to a blind person or music to a deaf person. Impossible. So we tell the person – it’s amazing, like ice cream! Does music or color have anything to do with ice cream? No. But we have no way of describing it, so we talk the person’s language and speak in terms of things they enjoy. Same with God having hands and feet.

But it isn’t just about hands and feet. It is about every single quality attributed to God. Love, anger, life and so on. Including the fact that he has knowledge. In truth, what we know as knowledge is not something which he has. His is qualitatively different then ours and in truth impossible for us to comprehend. Therefore the question cannot really get off the ground, because we don’t know the nature of his “knowledge.”

It can even be said that he doesn’t really know the future. Because the word “know” in that sentence has a definition, and whatever he has does not fall into that definition.

skiaddict –

Lifnei iver is only when there is a very high probability that your action will cause a bad thing to be done. Even though there are some depraved people, most do not stoop this low.

Sam2 –

I don’t believe you are correct historically. That is, I don’t think the white clothing thing with the minim had anything to do with an over-abstinence from ostentatiousness, or at least that our objection to it has to do with that fact. But I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Josh31 –

You don’t have to follow their standards if you don’t want to. I don’t think it’s necessary myself. And it could be that you make a valid argument, as in not making the fence higher than the tree. I’m simply showing that they are coming from a source and a svara and not from nothing. We can disagree with them, but their view is not illegitimate.

ZeesKite and slave-to-g-d –

Thank you very much.

Health and soliek –

There are bad apples in every crop and that is unfortunate. I do not believe they are anywhere near the majority though, and my point was directed at those who make general attacks against the rabbanim.

apushatayid –

What can I tell you? You’re absolutely right. I’ve said a million times on this site that people should have a rav. But people are too busy bashing rabbanim to realize that if only they went and got themselves a legitimate rav they would start to see that there isn’t much to bash about.

wanderingchana –

1) Perhaps not us specifically, but they are definitely out to get the Chareidi world and its rabbanim. This is a fact that anyone who’s ever left the sheltered confines of the Yeshiva World can attest to.

2) I don’t believe their care outweighs their other motives.

3) That is a straight-out lie. I don’t know what blogs you’ve been hanging around.

I don’t think so. It’s not a question of suspect, it’s a question of being able to assume that they will do it. Therefore I do not believe it applies in our society.

It’s because it would be lifnei iver. There are pages in Avodah Zarah which deal with this. Lifnei iver applies with regard to non-Jews as well.

aries2756 –

Some perspective over here:

But I will not accept insinuations that the rabbanim are apathetic. The blogosphere happens to be full of bitter people who need someone to blame and stam people who jump at every opportunity to denigrate the rabbanim, and it should be obvious to everyone that anything gleaned from such sources or anything similar should be taken with a gallon of salt.

Is it possible that they will make mistakes? Absolutely. They are not gods. But they are trying, and that is all we can ask for.

The next thing to do is to find a rabbi you trust and to ask him how to go about helping make the world a better place, through your specific talents and in your specific situation, within the bounds of Halacha.

Then you will be fulfilling your tafkid.

Some people are not as religious as others. Some kids go off the derech. Some kids might have never gone off had they never been sexually abused. This is a sad reality.

We like to believe that we do not judge those who aren’t as observant as ourselves, because only God can judge a person for who he/she really is. As the navi says* that when Mashiach comes – “and you will return and discern between the righteous and the wicked.” In our present state we have no way of telling.

Do we impose fines for certain transgressions? Penalties? Sure. But that is no contradiction. We do so in order to keep the order. To stop people from doing bad things, and to demonstrate to others that it isn’t worth it. But we don’t “judge.” We don’t say “you deserve it.” Because we honestly don’t know these things. Between this person and God there may be a completely different accounting than we think.

So let’s not be hypocrites, and let us take this argument to its logical conclusion. Imagine someone is a cold-hearted murderer. It is still not for any human being to decide what this person “deserves.” It is up to us and our court system to mete out a punishment that will teach others about the severity of the crime, and to do what we can to insure he won’t do it again. Because frankly society as a whole is more important than this individual. But to say that the person “deserves” something? Who are we to judge?

Yet in these horrible cases our emotions get in the way, and we do judge. So we’re really just a bunch of hypocrites, aren’t we? When it feels nice and fuzzy inside to love people and not to judge, we preach it. But when it hurts us, oh lets all go and hate these people, take revenge, etc. etc. etc.

Someone who molests a child can be causing the child considerable damage. He needs to be stopped, and lessons need to be taught. Not because “after all the victim has gone through he deserves to know that the molester is rotting away in prison.” I have never heard a comment more antithetical to Torah and mussar. Feel bad for the victims and give them your hearts; crack down on the perpetrators and stop this terrible thing from occurring, but don’t let self-righteous presumptions skew your entire hashkafas hachayim.

*Credit to Popa for pointing this out on a previous thread.

aries2756 –

Are you a posek?

Do you care one bit about halacha when it ostensibly offends your sensibilities?

If you are not a posek and you believe in keeping halacha then keep quiet until you receive a p’sak that you are allowed to defame an institution this way. I’m not talking about lashon hara on the specific individual in question. I’m talking about the current rosh yeshiva, the past roshei yeshiva, and all of faculty members amongst whom are great talmidei chachomim and rabbis and by implication you are incriminating all of them. Who gave you that right?

aries2756 –

That was pure lashon hara.

Did a rav tell you that you may say such a thing? If not, you are quite brazen to be motzi such a la’az on the Roshei Yeshiva and Halachic authorities under whom any related decisions are made.

old man –

Maybe you use a different siddur but unless I’m dreaming in the prayer on yom tov my siddur says to say your mother’s name.

Lol anytime Goq.

Sam2 –

I think I’ve seen similar in the Rambam, and he goes on to “pasken” ein mazal l’yisrael. Can’t remember where offhand.

Regarding the tzinim pachim Gemara Tosafos writes ??? ???? (????? ?? ??:) ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????

cinderella –

Yes, and it is in a nutshell what the Rambam and all the ba’alei mussar say. Someone must have taught you well!

Which Gemara argues on ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? The ????? ???? Gemara?

Someone’s busy enjoying their turducken…

Me too!

Hey he’s my rebbi too! (wasn’t in his shiur but used to go to the popcorn chabura)

Is your name supposed to be ironic then, in the way you might call a really large fellow Tiny?

OneOfMany –

Isn’t there intrinsic value in learning torah, regardless of its role in the scheme of things?

Perhaps, but it shouldn’t be pushed. Any “advanced Torah course” should be an elective rather than a required course.

The ones that are capable usually want the utmost in limudei kodesh too.

Unless guys and girls are very different, I don’t think you are right, and if it seems that way, maybe it’s simply a you-want-it-because-you-can’t-have-it motivation that’s behind it. In other words if you would change the system and make girls learn just as much as guys, they would have less of an interest. Just my conjecture.

I agree with you that it isn’t right to generalize. It’s ignorant and stupid and your principal never should have told you that. And I don’t know the details, but perhaps a limud z’chus – It could be he thought (clearly, mistakenly) that you personally could not handle such a course, and in his mind he believed that it would soften the blow to make a general comment about women than about your specific shortcomings, because in this way he is saying “don’t worry, you are normal.” Which clearly was the wrong thing to say, but I’m just saying that perhaps he didn’t mean to imply it the way you took it.

I’m getting a bit carried away again, but the on the topic of judging someones words in a favorable context, the Rambam writes:

“Should he notice any opinions with which he does not agree, let him endeavour to find a suitable explanation, even if it seem far-fetched, in order that he may judge me charitably. Such a duty we owe to every one. We owe it especially to our scholars and theologians, who endeavour to teach us what is the truth according to the best of their ability.”

Anyway.

By the way, I stated on another thread today that the Rambam’s opinion* is that the natural sciences are not just a complement to Torah, they are Torah. (In the interest of full disclosure, I should say that the Vilna Ga’on vehemently disagreed.) So by studying advanced physics you would be shteiging in limud haTorah according to the Rambam anyway.

*See, for example, his comments at the end of the fourth chapter in Hilchos Yesodei haTorah.