sam4321 –

I don’t remember, I have to check into it. But you’re right that teshuva definitely seems not that way. Anyway R’ Henkin held it was fine as long as the woman is observant, you can find the details of that teshuva by Google-ing it.

I do.

Everyone who said “obviously you’re getting something out of the other person’s paper” – Cinderella said she was asking a theoretical question. What if, in theory, you aren’t?

I still think it’s not a good thing to do. But it’s not “cheating.”

hello99 –

Here’s the other teshuva. It should explain more.

??”? ??”? ??’ ?”? ???’ ?’.

??? ????? ??”?: ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ???’, ?”?.

????: ?? ??????? ?? ???? ???????.

?????: ???? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ????. ????? ?????, ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???????? ????? ???? ????, ??”? ???? ???? ?????. ??? ?? ?? ???? ???????? ??? ????, ???”? ??? ????? ????? ???????, ???? ?? ????? ???, ?????? ??? ????, ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????, [??????? ??”? ??”? ??’ ?”? ?”? ?”?, ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????, ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????, ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????????? ?”? ???????].

??? ????? ?? ????? ?????, ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? [??’ ??”? ?? ???”? ???’ ?], ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????, ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ???”? [??”? ??’ ??”? ???’ ?’], ??? ???”? [??] ?? ?? ???? ???????, ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????, ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ????, ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????. ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????.

???? ????? [??”? ???”? ??’ ?”?] ?????? ?? ?????? ?”? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????, ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????. ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????, ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????, ?”? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????.

??? ??????? ?????? ????? ??, ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???. ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???, ??? ??????? ???? ???? [??”? ??’ ??”? ???’ ?”?], ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????. ??? ??? ??????? ???? ??????, ??? ?? ??? ???, ??”? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????, ??? ???? ?????. ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????.

?????? ?????? ???????? ???? ????, ??? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ????, ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?????, ?? ?????. ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????, ???? ???? ????? ?????. ??? ?? ?? ????? ???”?.

It’s a machlokes haposkim. R’ Moshe was against it. R’ Heinkin held of it. The rabbi of the shul should be making these decisions.

Doesn’t he mention it in Deios also where he says a talmid chacham shouldn’t walk in the shuk wearing fragrances?

wanderingchana –

I don’t need any descriptions. I have already known for a while.

____ is someone who is not with us any longer partly due to this. I was best friends with someone very close to him.

____ is someone who is now known to be a child molester, prior to that one of his occupations was in a camp where he was extra mean to me and had me kicked out, so when the whole thing came out I made it my duty to find out every nasty story, because I just hated the man.

____ is a massive talmid chacham and I was overjoyed when I started to be part of his circle because I had finally found someone who was really, really unbelievable in learning and also so “normal.” One day I mentioned this to a rebbi I was close with (the one I spoke of before) and he told me to stay away, telling me all sorts of horror stories, saying that he deals today with victims of this person’s victims, and he wishes he could have the guy put in jail and throw away the key but for technical reasons (not political, legal) it’s impossible.

These are just examples of how I am aware of the general situation. I have been personally affected as well but I will not elaborate on that. I still stand by what I said, and graphic descriptions aren’t going to change my opinion. I don’t know if you get it. These stories sicken me and hurt me. Yet I still do not believe that the rabbanim are not doing their job. We all feel the need to scream and blame people when terrible things happen. That does not mean they deserve the blame.

Health –

I am not in constant contact with them now. I was a year or two ago but now its just occasional. I will definitely broach this subject next time I have the opportunity, which hopefully will be in just a few weeks. I agree with this approach, coming up with suggestions and presenting them to the rabbanim, even arguing it out with them, just not bashing them.

(I do have a rav that I am in constant contact with now but he does not have the power to change policies.)

aries2756 –

I am terribly sorry about the pain your friend has been going through.

You however ought to consider two things.

1) For me, an outsider (ostensibly, at least from your perspective), I hear you saying the rabbis are all a bunch of lowlifes. So basically it’s one or two people against a whole group of rabbis, many of whom I know and trust that they are most definitely not lowlifes. So why in the world would I not take their side?

2) How many of these rabbanim who are supposedly covering for this molester do you know personally? Any? Yet you cast accusations on all of them like you know. Face it, as horrible as the crime perpetrated on your friend was, you only know what his side. And even he does not know the rabbanim’s side. So who are you to cast aspersions about them? You can have an opinion about how to deal with the situation but to denigrate and vilify these rabbanim this way? Did you even ask them and give them a chance? Do you have no respect for them at all?

Derech HaMelech –

I want to try something fun. I challenge you to make up a minhag (like, I don’t know – eating herring on Wednesdays*) and see if none of us here can come up with a geshmake basis for it.

*To which I would say has a source in that the bracha was given to fish on Wednesday.

hello99 –

See my response to you on the ???? ??? thread. The Aruch Hashulchan learns as a davar pashut like the Chamudei Daniel.

As for his mention of ??? ??????? ???? he is ma’arich in a different teshuva (???? ?) to say that it’s it’s only a minute amount of zeiah that could have been ???? in the walls and only ???? ????? because of ???? ???. If I have time later I’ll be ????? that one too.

aries2756 –

Truth is, I do not know exactly what they are doing. But I do know this. The way we came to this discussion in the first place was by you making a general accusation toward a certain institution, which happens to not be a political institution. That accusation blames a whole slew of chashuve rabbanim for covering up a cerain case. I know many of the rabbanim involved in that particular institution very well. And I am certain, knowing them personally, that they would not simply cover up for a dangerous person like this. Therefore I am also certain that they have a cheshbon in what they do. That is called trust. I do not trust that they don’t make mistakes, but I trust that they act upon their consciences and they do what they believe is right. And if I would only trust when things make sense then I would not trust at all.

I acknowledge that there are bad apples. But I think it is a real mistake to think that they are even a significant minority.

And here’s some food for thought: You have no statistics on cases that were handled properly, to really claim that most aren’t.

Personally I have a rebbi who is up nights on the phone with victims, organizations, phychologists, rabbis, etc. every single day. I uses to learn with him b’chavrusa once a week at night and we barely got to learn because he kept going to the next room to take calls. I have another rebbi who is the same way. There was a time when I had zero respect for rabbanim. It took me time but I slowly realized that the morons were exceptions to the rule, and proportionally there were far more morons bashing rabbis than there were morons who were rabbis.

Again, I do not know exactly what changes or fences they are implementing. But I have enough trust not to vilify them.

1) Ein hachi nami, check to see if it’s clean.

2) Stam ???? ?”?. Even though we don’t pasken that mamashus gets nifgam, see this lashon of the Aruch Hashulchan in 122:

???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???”? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???, ??? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??????, ???? ?? ???, ??? ?????? ???, ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?”? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ?”? ???? ???? ???”? ??? ????

aries2756 –

That is absolutely ridiculous and makes no sense. Stealing is NOT a tafkid that is an aveirah.

And defaming innocent, well-meaning rabbanim who are trying their best isn’t?

I was thinking about that, and truth is I don’t know 87 well enough yet. But let it be an issur hana’ah; since it is pogem the ta’aruvos you aren’t having hana’ah! (which is the Ran’s justification for the heter of ?”? ???? in the first place)

Josh31 –

Don’t worry, you don’t have to defend that Midrash to me. Rav Moshe writes that it only applied before matan Torah.

aries2756 –

You are totally missing my point.

I am not talking about respecting molesters.

I am talking about respecting rabbis, whom you claim are collectively involved in some evil scheme to enable molesters to enjoy themselves. It is that nonsensical idea that I take issue with.

gavra_at_work –

I do not believe the Rambam had any of these explanations in mind. This seems clear from the countless times he says that we cannot possibly comprehend God’s essence. We can only truly speak of negative attributes, not positive ones. Not even the “possibility” of positive attributes.

One of many examples:

We must blame the philosophers in this respect more than any other persons, because they demonstrated that there is no plurality in God, and that He has no attribute that is not identical with His essence; His knowledge and His essence are one and the same thing; they likewise demonstrated, as we have shown, that our intellect and our knowledge are insufficient to comprehend the true idea of His essence. How then can they imagine that they comprehend His knowledge, which is identical with His essence; seeing that our incapacity to comprehend His essence prevents us from understanding the way how He knows objects? For His knowledge is not of the same kind as ours, but totally different from it and admitting of no analogy. And as there is an Essence of independent existence, which is, as the philosophers, call it, the Cause of the existence of all things, or, as we say, the Creator of everything that exists beside Him, so we also assume that this Essence knows everything, that nothing whatever of all that exists is hidden from it, and that the knowledge attributed to this essence has nothing in common with our knowledge, just as that essence is in no way like our essence. – Guide 3:20

Italics are mine.

By saying any explanation whatsoever, even if you admit that you cannot visualize it, you are acknowledging that there is an explanation for the coexistence of God’s knowledge and our free will, when in fact it is impossible to correctly say that God has what we call knowledge.

By the way, the Rambam in the YaD is a short version of what he explains at length in the Guide.

wanderingchana –

You said: “…but this just may be an argument for female moderators. I think someone has to be either a victim or a mother to really feel the agony they feel…”

How did I misinterpret you exactly?

It is not an answer, it is a concept.

Shkoyach. A concept you’re using to answer a question, no?

I already elaborated on the Rambam’s opinion which I accept, and it is most definitely not this.

“and if he did not, then he wasn’t omniscient.”

Patently false.

I fail to see how.

aries2756 –

Furthermore, The little I know, the Agudah nor Rabbonim in general have met with Professionals but NOT victims.

Your information is not accurate. I cannot speak for Agudah (because I have no idea), but I can speak for a lot of rabbanim.

wanderingchana –

So basically you believe that only women get it; men are all callous, shallow, and frankly couldn’t care less.

…