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Shopping, it’s not a problem.
I agree. The fact that a kid who publicly proclaims that he is a religious Jew (by wearing a yarmulka) acts so refined and respectful is a real Kiddush Hashem. Good for him and the parent(s) who raised him!
Guess I don’t know how to link properly.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9146&st=&pgnum=147&hilite=
Health – From a strictly halachic point of view there is no issue whatsoever. The issue would be Lifnei Iver, and you are too many steps removed from the actual issur for this to apply. See Avodah Zarah 14a and Shulchan Aruch YD 151:1 with the first Pischei Teshuva.
If the product(s) aren’t labeled as such – then any product in the store becomes a Sofek. This could very well be a problem in Halacha. So his warning is Apropos!
Haha. Yeah right.
yekke2 –
Yes, but the point here (more than just what I said in my long megilla above) is that your argument is not intellectually honest. Besides, of course the Talmud is a valid source of proof for him. Since you accept the validity of the Talmud, if he is trying to prove that a concept fits in to your belief system, a proof from the Talmud is certainly valid.
HaKatan –
I don’t know why you are calling this pshat in the Gemara in Sukkah anything less than objective. It is the obvious, clear understanding of it, and the fact that the Maharsha says another pshat doesn’t change that. Regardless of whether you think the pashut pshat fits with the mainstream Yiddishe Hashkafa, it would be intellectually dishonest to say that such an understanding of the Gemara is “twisted.”
i dare you to press ctrl dash five times.
(and when you’re done if you’re mad at me just press ctrl plus five times and you’ll be happy again)
Is it solely because it was introduced by Obama…?
Yup. It’s not all though, I know plenty who support it. You just don’t hear their voices in places like these.
lol
Then i asked him for a source that a human’s death can atone for MY sins?
Sukkah 45b:
???? ????? ?”? ????? ???? ???”? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????
Rashi:
????? – ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???????? ?????? ?? ????
Granted, it isn’t specifically talking about someone’s death atoning, but the general concept is clearly there. In our rush to uphold our beliefs we should never say there is NO source for a particular thing unless we’ve actually went through everything.
Sam – I agree with that point but it wasn’t primarily what I was trying to say, as I explained above.
Itche – Regardless, the fact that it’s an ofeneh pasuk in Vayikra should make you think for a second. They’ve certainly heard of the question. Do you think in the last two thousand years none of them has come up with a good lomdishe answer? At least one that will satisfy THEM enough not to abandon the tenets of the religion they believe in?
mazal tov!
In fact, the Torah warns expressly against such belief when the navi deviates from the Torah.
Does it? Actually I don’t think you’ll find concrete proof from the Torah about such a thing unless the prophet is saying to worship other gods.
My point about kabbalah was something else. I wasn’t coming to say that kabbalah contradicted our previous conception of the Torah. My point was that I’d be thrown out of most yeshivish/chasidish places if I said I thought kabbalah is bunk. Why? How does something like that, based on the testimony of select few people throughout history and not many millions, garner so much support from the ‘mesorah’ yet when some guy walks on water and tells us new stuff our response is he must be a charlatan because we don’t listen to new things? I understand there are other problems with him, but my issue is with using this particular point – the ‘only-one-guy-so-he-could-be-a-trickster’ theory – as an argument. It is an argument with a hole.
Let me try to state my opinion very clearly. Just like we have a mesorah, so do they. OF COURSE in our minds their ‘mesorah’ has ZERO validity. That does not need to be said. What needs to be said is that IN THEIR MINDS their ‘mesorah’ is the be-all and end-all, and that because of this they will resort to any and every argument to defend it. SINCE it is impossible to conclusively prove them wrong – NOT that I think it is reasonable at all to believe they are right, but I recognize, as a person with half a head on my shoulders and a fairly decent amount of relevant knowledge, the sheer DIFFICULTY of conclusively proving a thing like this – THEREFORE I think we should recognize that they, as faithful adherents to their religion, will not be persuaded by our arguments, even if they are intellectually honest people, because it is their religion at stake, and they will not in good conscience forgo it if there is even the slightest leeway out of the argument. All that results from these confrontations, in my opinion, is strife. If they ask us how we understand a pasuk, by all means we should tell them. If they tell us to convert, we should defend ourselves in every way possible. But to throw arguments at them which can be disputed even with only the most convoluted and anti-simplicity counterarguments; that is a useless endeavor at best. ?? ???? ?????? ???????.
YehudahTzvi – One who raises a child is as if he bore him. The meforshim say this on countless occasions, even in places where the Torah uses terms like ??. See, for example, Ibn Ezra to Bereishis 46:7.
on the ball –
You’ve conveniently ignored the ‘Mecholos’ and have also for some unknown reason assumed the tune was African style.
Mecholos means dancing. Bongos and dancing. I didn’t ignore anything. My assumption is simply a reflection of the observation that the only instrument they cared for was a drum.
I’m not talking about the lyrics. I am talking about the tune. And I don’t believe you if you say rap and heavy metal TUNES inspire you. I simply do not believe it. Your statement that my argument is circular is meaningless because if you read my post you will see that I wasn’t trying to prove anything. I simply asserted my belief on this issue.
Without lyrics, tunes reflect whatever mood I am in. It’s like the clickety-clack of a train, if you’re in a good mood it feels rhythmic and if you’re in a bad mood it’s annoying. Similarly, if I hear a song with a wild beat with no words, it all depends on what mood I’m in. It doesn’t make me feel less spiritually connected at all. But you can believe what you want. My personal conjecture is that people who feel like being ‘bad’ when they hear wild music do so because they associate the two in their minds. If one would have lived in eighteenth-century Poland where the counts played klezmer music at their crude parties, one would associate klezmer with crudeness. But there is nothing intrinsically un-spiritual about any form of music. But that’s just my conjecture.
That pasuk does not refute replacement theology because it can be interpreted to be simply saying that the descendants of Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yaakov will never be obliterated. That is besides the fact that there are varying views on what replacement theology implies anyway, with some definitions not even going against our traditional pshat in the pasuk. Do I really need to do this? You have a shtickel Gemara kup Itche, you can figure these things out too if you tried hard enough.
Kedusha Bagoyim AL TAAMIN!
Nice. You made up a saying and then made up a nice vort to go with it.
on the ball –
You can’t just jump to mesorah to solve all your problems. The fact of the matter is that if I say kabbalah is bunk I would be thrown out of many Batei Medrash. Why? There’s no “Kuzari Principle” for it! For that matter there’s no “Kuzari Principle” for anything other than the Aseres HaDibros really. Why am I mentioning the Kuzari Principle? Because that is exactly your argument. You said that “one guy showing up doing a few magic tricks doesn’t change an ancient belief system.” Well why not? Why don’t a few magic tricks prove anything? After all, a navi is believed after he does “a few magic tricks.” What’s the answer – that the fact that our belief system is ancient means that it can’t be challenged? What kind of argument is that? Unless that argument is based in some kind of Kuzari argument it just sounds like nonsense and sophistry to me. Hence my point.
The fact is, anyone with half a Gemara kup can figure out answers to any arguments you will pose to the missionaries. So in truth why don’t we all convert? Because we have our mesorah – i.e. if our brand of Judaism was good enough for the tanaim and amoraim then it’s good enough for us as well; and because they have never proven that we should convert. We can debate with them on the defensive, i.e. when they show you a pasuk demanding that you believe in Jesus you show them that it is not at all muchrach to read the pasuk that way. But I do not think that there is any point in going on the offensive and trying to “refute” their religion. And as and aside I do not think historically we ever have done so.
on the ball –
Not sure what you’re trying to prove from the ‘Tupim Um’cholos’. Percussion accompanying refined melodious and uplifting tunes – no issue there.
Also not sure what contemporary christian evangalistic rock music proves except possibly that like modern Jewish singers, they too have also lost their way in this field. I read once that many christian leaders decry this trend themselves.
Re your last points. Nobody said anything about good or bad. It’s about materialistic and animalistic vs spiritualistic and emotive.
And finally, it’s not hype and no, you do not need to know enough music – in fact your repertoire of music can be limited to nursery rhymes – and you will still be able to tell that gangsta-rap and heavy metal is more prost and unrefined (even ignoring the lyrics) than Bach and Mozart. The differences amongst the genres in between while at first less obvious are still true.
yentingyenta – Look for the version with the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, that’s where Lev Tahor took it from.
JaneDoe18 –
Kabbalah is part of the Torah.
“Magic tricks” are from the forces of Tumah.
If you’d analyze my comment in context you’d see that your statement isn’t relevant to my point.
Sam – I’m not trying to fight, only to reinforce to position I stated above.
on the ball –
One guy showing up doing a few magic tricks doesn’t change an ancient belief system.
Do you similarly object to a great part of klal yisroel’s acceptance of kabbalah in the late Middle Ages?
on the ball –
The discernible difference is the drumbeat and rhythm focus (think mantras [again idol-worship connotations] think rap),rather than a focus on melody and harmony.
Funny, all the ????? ??????? going on in Tanach make me think that there were times when they weren’t particularly interested in melody and harmony then either.
I don’t believe any genre of music is inherently good or bad. If “rock music just makes you want to throw away your spiritually inspired inhibitions” as you say, it’s because of the lyrical content, not the music. V’ha raya contemporary Christian music uses rock music (among every other popular genre) to promote many universally meaningful ideas. If you know enough music you realize that this idea of music being good or bad is all hype. Not just if you know enough about music, but if you know enough music.
If you like “The Band” then you’ll probably like Van Halen’s “Right Now” even more. However the only band you should have doing this intro is one that you’ve seen do it well before (on YouTube etc.). Not everyone does it well.
optimusprime – I don’t agree with such arguments because they really are just sophistry. Look at the discussion that ensued here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/when-a-child-eats-traif/page/2#post-387688 It’s the same idea. Obviously there are nuanced ways to express certain theological positions one has in order to make them more palatable then when they are expressed other ways. At the end of the day we are happy with our religion and they are happy with theirs and that’s that, and I don’t see the value in engaging them in these arguments.
I agree with DY.
I am a yeshivishe sheigitz.
oomis – glad to hear.
🙂
oomis –
Might I suggest you watch R. Gil Student’s recent video clips entitled “The Internet Shiur.” You can find them on his blog (Torah Musings) or via Google search. His hashkafa is much closer to yours than what is being espoused by others these days, and you may find a lot of what he says enlightening. I found them worth my while.
lol, i could say the same
oomis – I agree with the bulk of what you wrote, but I just have to echo the others in saying that you really cannot learn anything from your computer history. It’s really easy to manipulate that, and you don’t have to be any kind of expert to do so.
assuming your body is facing the right way…
I think your sister-in-law has her head on straight.
nonsense
Itche – Takeh, although it’s fohrt used as ‘at least’ in the context of what I was saying. Anyway in my defense I was high when I wrote that. Also your yeshivish is very good for a sheigitz.
Nu nu. I didn’t learn like that in Rashi anyway. Dachtzich Rashi means if I am responsible for watching it memeila I am the gorem of the damage by not watching it. Bichlal I learned the avos nezikin as klalim of when one is chayav as a gorem. I’m not holding but when I was that’s what I thought the most glatte pshat was. Hey, are you in Lakewood? Maybe we could chazer Bava Kama together.
lbmzr – Note that even the Rambam said ????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ?????… and not ?? ???? ?????.
snort
Now your chiluk is getting balebatish…
Is it a ruach metzuya or not? That’s all that should matter.
Good chance they don’t mind, though you should ask. I remember in yeshiva we used to walk over to Dunkin Donuts to buy coffee, and one guy who was makpid not to drink chalav hacompanies would carry along his half gallon of Pride of the Farm. They didn’t mind.
pcoz – Come on – for that matter the whole world is a pikadon to you the moment you buy a shor, because you’re accepting to be shomer it from being mazik the rest of the world. Sorry, sounds a bit farfetched (my fave yidish word). Pashut pshat is you give me reshus to put my thing in your car, finished. I’m not borrowing anything.
As for your second chiluk, the koach to get spoiled is inherent in every chicken, so I’m not maskim to the chiluk. Besides it’s klohr that R’ Eliyashiv didn’t hold from this chiluk because he was mashveh it to avno sakino umasa’o.
I mamish don’t chap why you are considering the car a pikadon. You let me leave something in your house, now I’ve borrowed your house?
seeing as the av here seems to be esh which always has a koach acher meurav bo therefore there is no requirement to have an original maaseh mazik?
I don’t think that’s mistavra.
Itche – But pcoz taynehs good that by avno sakino umasa’o you fohrt (at least) have a ma’aseh to attach to the hezek that ultimately occurred as a result, mah she-ein ken over here the ma’aseh was done birshus.
np 🙂
(p.s. i’m a guy btw. most people who shorten my name write yit or yitay, it’s less confusing.)
Just a word of caution: When things like this happen it’s not uncommon for the parent to feel guilty, and if you’re not vigilant you might subconsciously project that guilt onto your kid. I’m sure you’re a good parent, just be careful about that. You don’t want to hurt your kid.
I hear what you’re tayneh-ing. I feel like this prat is mefurash somewhere, I’m just not holding in the sugya. It’s a good klerr. Anyone here holding in Bava Kama? If I have time later I’ll see if I can find something.
u gotta put these guys (< and >) on either side of ur ems if ur trying to make italics
BTW I love these kinds of threads. Shkoyach.
I hear the shaila but I don’t chap why you’re saying that the guy becomes a shoel on the car. Either way this case is l’fum rihata a mefureshe mishna (Bava Kama 47a):
???? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????
If when the guy brings it birshus the ba’al hachatzer is chayav then obviously when the ba’al hachatzer’s own stuff gets damaged it’s his own loss. L’mayseh I still hear a shaila because it could be if the bag was closed the ba’al ha-car isn’t expected to assume it’s something like chicken that can easily spoil. Or maybe it’s his achrayus to know, especially on Friday when everyone has chicken in their bags. Good shaila.