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But the Noda B’Yehuda himself argues with Rishonim. See Yoreh Deah Tinyana 28 where he argues strongly with Ramban.
I don’t understand. Let’s say that there’s a machlokes Rishonim – for example, the machlokes between Rambam and Ramban as to whether magic is real. Surely everyone here either believes that it is or is not real. So everybody here is arguing with a Rishon!
Feel free to start another thread. This one is about Rubashkin. And please keep it free of anti-frum comments.
As well as doing our hishtadlus and davenning for Rabbi Rubashkin, we must also remember to davven for Gilah Schalit.
The details of the rakia (as understood by Chazal) are discussed earlier in Pesachim and in the Yerushalmi, in terms of its substance and thickness, and are not particularly relevant here. The point is that, according to the Chachmei Yisrael, the sun travels through holes in the rakia at shekiah and passes behind the rakia at night and thereby cannot be seen.
The Shitah Mekubetzes that you referenced is quoting Rabbeinu Tam. And this is exactly what Maharam Alashkar is addressing. Sure, Rabbeinu Tam was of the view that the Chachmei Yisrael were actually correct, and that the sun really does pass behind the sky at night. However, as Maharam Alashkar points out, the Geonim and all the other Rishonim accept that the Chachmei Yisrael were wrong. The sun does not go behind the sky at night; it continues its motion on the other side of the world. And we today know that with certainty.
Here, for example, is what Maharam Alashkar has to say:
[than Rabbeinu Tam] , for they both believe that the firmament is like an arched room, and the sphere is stationary and the constellations revolve, and the sun itself travels below the [cover of the] [western] [upper] [eastern] end, at which point dawn occurs; and sunrise happens when it reaches the [lower] [Yehudah Hanasi] [of the gentile sages] [i.e., that the sphere, not the constellations, rotate: the view of the gentile sages] .
No, I’m not mistaken. And my questions were not addressed; in fact, I did not ask any questions.
Have you actually looked at all at the Gemara, and at the Rishonim and Acharonim? The Chachmei Yisrael held that the sun goes above the rakia at night (in Bava Basra there is a machlokes as to whether the sun turns to the side and travels along the northern border of the world, or whether it turns upwards and passes over our heads). The Chachmei HaUmos, on the other hand, said that the sun goes beneath the earth at night (which, as we know today, is correct). Rav Yehudah HaNasi says that the Chachmei HaUmos seem to be correct, because (in his view) rivers steam at night because they are heated by the sun from below.
This sugya has nothing to do with whether the sun orbits the earth or the earth orbits the sun. It’s about whether the sun at night is over Australia, or whether it doubles-back behind a “firmament” above our heads, hidden from view. This is not a matter of scientific theories. It is an established fact that the sun is over Australia when it is night in Eretz Yisroel. We don’t need to reinterpret Chazal – as Rav Yehudah HaNasi conceded, Chazal were mistaken about where the sun goes at night. Peacemaker, do you really think that scientists are one day going to discover that the sun really does go behind the sky at night and not over Australia?
Besides, virtually all the Rishonim confirmed Rav Yehudah HaNasi’s statement that the Chachmei Yisrael were wrong about this (and they did not believe that it is to be interpreted mystically/ metaphorically). Are you really saying that Rav Yehudah HaNasi and all the Rishonim were wrong?
Coltuv – Shekiah/ sunset is irrelevant to this. The Gemara is talking about the sun changing direction AFTER sunset and traveling behind the sky instead of on the opposite side of the world.
HaLeivi – These Geonim/Rishonim are all talking about this Gemora specifically.
Maharal, Ramchal, Sefer HaBris and a few other Acharonim say that Chazal in Pesachim were not speaking about material phenomena, but instead about mystical phenomena. Chazal were therefore not incorrect.
However, Rav Sherira Gaon, Rav Hai Gaon, Rambam, Rabbeinu Avraham ben HaRambam, Tosafos Rid, Rav Eliezer of Metz, Rosh, Ritva, Rabbeinu Bachya, Rabbeinu Manoach, Rabbeinu Yerucham, Akeidas Yitzchok, Maharam Alashkar, Radbaz, as well as Rabbeinu Tam, Ramban and Ran, all say that Chazal were speaking about the physical sun changing direction and going behind the sky at night. There is NO Rishon who says otherwise. With the exception of the last three, all the Geonim and Rishonim followed the plain pshat of the Gemara, that R. Yehudah HaNasi conceded that Chazal’s view was incorrect (the last three hold that Chazal were correct and that the sun really does change direction and go behind the sky at night. But I don’t think that anyone today would agree with that).
Amongst the Acharonim, the poshut peshat of the Gemora was also followed by Ramak, Maharsha, Pri Chadash, Pachad Yitzchok, Maharam Shick, Rav Hirsch, and others. So this is clearly a legitimate, even mainstream, view in the mesorah.