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Avram in MD:
Chas Veshalom. I was merely demonstrating the point that “Modern Orthodox” cannot be defined as “influenced at all by secular society.”
MW13
I apologize for not reading your mind. I am only capable of reading the words you write. At first you said Modern Orthodox, then changed it to modern culture; I read modern culture, and culture includes styles of dress, but your message is clear now… sort of
I could get all gemara-ey on you and say there’s no way you really meant that because otherwise you would’ve answered that above when I first brought up styles of dress…. but I won’t.
Mw13:
We weren’t discussing the modern world we were discussing “MO,” modern orthodox, which fits into your categorization of the “Yeshiva world” but was excluded in previous posts; glad you’ve come around.
And the point of bringing up Europe was to point out before, while you still were talking about Modern Orthodox, that your definition is skewed. It can’t be that anyone affected by modern culture would fall under the category of “Modern Orthodox.” According to your definition, everyone who was affected by European culture in that time period, and the subsequent gedolim, fell victim to “Modern” orthodoxy. Because the hat and suit and the even the tie fashion/trends start somewhere, and were at one point reflecting “modern” (that current time period’s) culture.
Just curious, do you wear a tie for shabbos? When did that style of tie become popular?
mw13:
I’m sorry I cannot quote it for you verbatim, but the shulchan aruch says that one’s torah must be the ikar of one’s day.
Someone can help me out here with exact marei mekomot but anyone who doesnt have kirvat hashem as his/her highest priority is not fulfilling the shulchan aruch.
And again, why do you assume everyone who is “MO” has a tv? why do you assume everyone who has a tv has inappropriate channels on it?
Why are you grouping all the people in YU together? Have you ever stepped foot on campus? You clearly don’t realize the spectrum of people you are talking about when you say “MO” which is why I’ve clarified, that those people you refer to are not “MO”. There are pleenty of kipah sruga, and even velvet kipa people who dont wear hats and would not qualify as yeshivish to you, but are very enviable in regards to their levels of yirah and kviat itim etc. And as thiiis topic developed, what we (as a subtopic underneath the OP) have been discussing, is that the black hat ie “yeshivish” indicator, is not a required accessory to be frum/ orthodox; and the lack of one in no way disqualifies someone from putting hashem first.
And if you want to define MO as someone who is affected by secular culture as you’ve said before, then everyone in lakewood is MO as well, because everyone’s dress has adapted according to society’s acceptable standards. Even the coveted black hat developed from what was considered distinguished in Europe.
Again, the point is black hat is not a requisite for putting Hashem first or being an excellent oved Hashem. Every orthodox movement puts hashem first be it bnei akiva, because if it doesnt then it isnt orthodox. And orthodox does NOT EQUAL yeshivish.
There are different hashkafot that different people subscribe to and thats okay and we shouldnt look down on other people for that. MO believe there is potential in things besides for torah to come close to hashem, and act accordingly. And beyond that, there is a wide spectrum of people within every group, yeshiviish MO etc.
MW13:
You are horribly mistaken with your perception of what you call the “Modern World”. First of all, lets be clear. The “Modern World” you refer to can in no way shape or form be summed up as simply as you have put it.
You said “The modern world, on the other hand, tries have a good time both in this world and the next. They tend to be much more open to
(and influenced by) the culture around them, and this shows in how they conduct themselves. (The more influenced one is by the secular culture around him, the less of a Torah-oriented life he/she lives.) They keep and follow the Torah, but it is not all they live for.”
What an awful misconception by someone who has obviously not done their research. What you are referring to are people who are not orthodox. That’s not “MO”. What MO really means, and what YU’s slogan means, is people who are both Modern AND Orthodox, striving to keep shulchan aruch in its entirety, which includes the part about placing Hashem and his torah first.
Now, this is where you’ve exposed yourself for being closeminded. There is another derech that is different than yours. MO believe not in the standalone value of madda, but in its potential to bring us closer to Hashem. That bzeiyat apecha tochal lachem means get a job, that being an ohr lagoyim means interacting with goyim, and that studying biology can give one insight in to the niflaot of Hashem. But, all of this is because we (oh no, one of those!) believe this is the best way to serve Hashem; and this IS putting Hashem and torah first. The frum crowd in YU put in a 7 or 8 hours of learning, fit in around their studies in the afternoon. And you better believe they fight for it, and appreciate their torah.
Now, what you were referring to are people who are not going about it in its proper form; however those exist in every circle–yeshivish chasidish etc.
So to reiterate, proper MO does only live for torah, and it all revolves around Hashem, it’s just a different way than you are used to so you’ve automatically written it off as invalid.
So to address your last point: You’re right, technically “this conversation” is about what the OP said, but as always, the conversation in the coffee room digressed, and OUR conversation became about something else. And you’re right, how someone dresses does say something to some people about one’s hashkafa, but as I said above, this is a sad reality. Get to know somebody before you make judgements, because just because you’re reading someone one way doesnt mean they mean to give off a specific message. And just because someone is dressed one way that according to you gives off a certain message doesnt mean they really are that way.
The point is clothes dont really say anything. And they shouldnt. So get to know somebody before you make any judgements either way.
Totally agree Anon1m0us.
Should you marry him just because he wears a blackhat? NO find out if wears a black hat on his neshama (yea, I know, I said it)
Should you NOT marry him because he DOESNT wear a blackhat? Also no. Marry the person for who they really are, not what their clothing says about them.
Thank you AinOdMilvado!
mw13:
You’re right, but the point of this whole conversation is that there is too much emphasis placed on what one is wearing instead of really judging someone based on who they are.
If someone is wearing tziztis, yalmaka and whatever kind of shoelace has been accepted by the entire frum jewish population (I’m obviously excluding the black hat from this category) then isnt that enough of a statement of who that person identifies with? And if it isn’t, I think that ought to be changed.
Again, clothing often says something about a person. But not always, and it is definitely not me’akev. If the story someone mentioned all the way in the beginning of this thread is true, that it has reached the point where someone rejected a shidduch of a very good guy just because he didnt wear a hat, then I think it has been taken way too far.
Mw13:
We all agree there is a certain objective “classy style” that should be obtained by a ben torah, or jew in general for that matter. Not because any specific garment (other than tzitzis and kipa obviously) does the trick, but because we are supposed to hold ourselves in esteem.
Truth be told:
No one has said that a hat CAN NOT be considered kavod shabbos. What has been said is that it is not a requisite of kavod shabbos, or of being a frum shtark yid in general. It is an accessory, and an optional one at that.
And in a similar fashion to what I answered above, society by in large does not accept a pink sock with a pant leg tucked into it as formalwear, or as classy by any means. So while I appreciate the image you’ve conjured in my head, please try to read and understand the previous posts before you decide on a condescending retort.
Truth be told
How do you think the “black hat” phenomenon developed? Do you concede it had something to do with that time period/society’s accepted forms of dress? What’s changed since then?
And the story about the fellow walking to shul does not prove anything. If someone has the custom to wear a black hat on shabbos and neglects that minhag due to the heat, then he is essentially neglecting what he has deemed kavod shabbas because of the heat. That’s not difficult to accept.
What I meant by my last sentence “Especially when one grows up in a society/ is born in an era where putting on a hat may make them feel less yirah than not wearing one” was that for a person who grew up in a “modern orthodox” society but is yeshiva educated and frum, wearing a hat may not elicit the response/ emotions it would from someone who grew up in black hat community… it may be counterproductive. To demonstrate albeit through a bit of an exaggeration, someone from our culture wearing a kilt, although the formal wear of the irish, will probably cause more kalus rosh than it will add to someone’s decorum. If it’s not an accessory you are used to, the strangeness of the item may prove to be a distraction.
And just for the record, many very frum, very orthodox rabbeim do not wear black hats. Personally I have an extra level of respect for those rabbeim i know who dont feel the need to put on a black hat when they themselves did not grow up with one because they live the ideal that chitzonius is sheker.
Blueprints:
I’m not really sure what your point was that you say you’ve made so well, I’d be interested if you would please elaborate… but to address your question about what I believe is respectable clothing?
A nice pair of slacks and a button down shirt are considered classy by everybody. Your identifiable as a Jew because your are dressed nicely and have your kipa on.
Just remember, they didnt wear white shirts, black suits, and black hats in the desert. That means that what has become the accepted norm was at one point a “new thing”. In fact, as other posters mentioned above, it actually developed in order to reflect the current period’s culture and accepted norms of dress. Adjusting what we consider to be chashuv dress would just be following that precedent
fyi firemen definitely do NOT wear their hats “whenever they are on duty”; those hats are for their protection not for the honor associated with the position.
Some other posters mentioned that the hat signifies someone as a “yeshiva educated” male. But what about those who are yeshiva educated but does not wear a hat because they grew up outside of a society where everyone wears one? Why would some people, even after being notified of their education and credentials still reject someone in shudduchim, or judge someone in general for something so chitzoniusdik?
And there is no way to “prove” something is objectively more respectful. The same way many years ago society dictated that wearing a hat was a sign someone was distinguished, why is it so difficult to swallow that, since society has adjusted (I wouldn’t necessarily attribute to its “decadence” any more than I would to explain why we stopped wearing powdered wigs as a sign of stature) certain people/circles have elected to adjust how they dress when they are trying to give off a put-together appearance when they daven or go about their day? Especially when one grows up in a society/ is born in an era where putting on a hat may make them feel less yirah than not wearing one?
rhetorical questions still warrant question marks.
Just one issue that may come up…
If someone is “friends” who may not be as makpid on snius or negiah as they should be, their pictures come up on your feed and you see their pictures. Even if they are the same gender as you, everyone in their pictures may not be, and it can be a serious taiva that’s best avoided.
Sometimes it is not so simple to just delete that person because then you may need to explain why, and not everyone is so understanding either.
I’m not speaking from a girl’s perspective but I’d assume if a nice short story with a nice message/vort in it came up– and was relevant to the conversation, then it would be fine. It would just be akward/boring if it was a planned monologue… am I right?