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Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
Whose afraid of Virginia Woolfe
A Doll’s House
I read Animal Farm and Lord of the Flies in my 7th grade class for the record.
I think one must ask themselves where the child learned to hit from…
never admit it, then by law they have to give you a ticket. (they lose their moral flexibility)
MDD – I agree nobody should have a seder of literature the way one would have a seder of Torah, but all I am saying is that to a large degree we are supposed to know both (science, history [not literature persay]) and there is much to be gained, albeit slightly different things from their study (assuming one is learning it within the proper contexts and having the proper kavanos in mind). And “no choice” is rather subjective. There are those who would argue that many people struggling to make ends meet in the modern era also should be b’geder “no choice” and aren’t living responsibly the way they do, which leads one to follow a more “MO” path. Hashkafically they recognize it as a matter of necessity.
Farrocks – while YU has the tagline “Torah U’madda” I would definitely NOT say that RSRH “Torah im derech eretz” is unrelated. In fact, I would say that it was the precursor to the TuM of YU now. And RSRH was seen by many, many in his day as the opinion heading away from the correct path similar to the way many nowadays view the Rav and the “Torah Umadda” ways of YU. (On a personal note, I guess according to many on this site I would be considered MO but I happen to appreciate RSRH’s approach much more than the message TuM sends, as I think the definition/underlying hashkafic implications of TuM are very ambiguous and up to everyone’s own interpretation- in a negative way)
I wouldn’t call R’ S. Rephael Hirsch just “anyone”
IM(H)O, the main difference which causes the biggest stink is that in the 19th century people started labeling it. Before then, almost everyone except a few yechidim worked to support their families, and knowing science and history was considered the same as Torah, because it’s maaseh Hashem. To be able to give psak on complicated shailas, one must know anatomy and science etc. To give an educated decision, guidance and hadracha, one must know the history involved and be able to learn from similar situations in the past. (Everyone knows the story about the Netziv, where his parents were going to take him out of cheder and have him apprentice b/c apparently he wasn’t proving to be one of those yechidim – otherwise people were in cheder until about 10 years old- [this is where history becomes important])
People who are real MO (ie. actually orthodox and shomrei halacha to the fullest extent they know how/ are capable of) recognize this. Also as someone mentioned above it’s all about the emphasis. “Yeshivish” emphasize one’s personal relationship with Hashem, ie through maximizing Torah study, while MO may exert their efforts in other areas of avodas Hashem (although grounded in a solid foundation of past and continuing talmud Torah) such as chessed, making a kiddush Hashem, tikkun olam, and being able to support Torah institutions and other Jewish initiatives around the world.
Can we focus the thread on how “Facebook” is gematria “Sitra Achra” now please? I think that proves the point…
For my yeshiva years I have “Studied Abroad: 2xxx-2xxx”
Depends what profession you are in I think, but sometimes having a unique experience like devoting years to “studying and researching Jewish Law, Philosophy, and critical readings of biblical texts in ancient Semitic languages” can be a talking point that sets you apart. You can bring up the “talmud” is highly regarded as a very difficult and analytical undertaking, often taught in top law schools to sharpen the mind, and standardized in the South Korean curriculum.
stab in the dark here…. she was born in 88
opportunity to make a kiddush Hashem or not to… should you?
…. and to think, I never knew “liberal pressure” was justification for compromising halacha and Torah standards!
If anything I would say YU condemning the event that unintentionally was perceived as supporting toeivah and instituting new policies to ensure events like that would not happen again, is much more within normative halacha and daas Torah than reinstating an official group/ club explicitly supporting toevah (alliance… etc), even if it was because of political pressure. (I’m not intending to knock Touro, only point out how this whole discussion is perpetuated by silly comments and double standards)
A blind man once stepped on Chuck Norris’ shoe. Chuck replied, “Don’t you know who I am? I’m Chuck Norris!” The mere mention of his name cured this man blindness. Sadly the first, last, and only thing this man ever saw, was a fatal roundhouse delivered by Chuck Norris.
Chuck Norris counted to infinity – twice.
When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Chuck Norris
A few of my favorites
poppa
I dont think I was clear then. To avoid misrepresenting what R Twersky said, (my fault for being unclear sorry) please read his response.
I don’t think he was making a chiluk between sexual issues and other, but more that one’s taivas and dealing with them in personal cases should be private matters.
TO EVERYBODY
Again, institutions make mistakes, YU readily admits this event should never have occurred. But don’t make it into something it wasnt. It was never intended to provide any legitimization for mishkav zachor. Unfortunately, the event was construed by people to be such, which is partially why the event was a bad idea. Also, hence all of this discussion.
The way all of this came up in the thread was people claiming YU supports mishkav zachor, or at one point did. That has never been the case. Now that that point specifically was cleared up, can we move on from that faulty assumption/accusation and stick to the original focus of the thread. The only thing that event proves that is counter-YU is that the oversight committee in YU made a mistake. LOTS has changed as a result of that event. Admitting fault and learning from mistakes is a maileh; as opposed to ignoring mistakes and sweeping them under the carpet, pretending nothing ever happened, IMHO.
poppa
One of the reasons various Roshei Yeshiva were against it because of the way it was portrayed in the press and may be perceived, ie the way people here thing YU gave a psak that its okay to do mishkav zachor. This whole forum is proof to the phenomenon of “broken telephone”, but hindsight is 20/20.
Also I know specifically from Rav Twersky’s speech, that with regards to those people suffering themselves, they should not discuss their taivas in a public forum, the way everybody else does not discuss their taivas in a public forum since it is inappropriate. And that when they seek help, which they should, it should be done privately.
If my memory serves me correctly, the idea of being more supportive (in a way that enables these unfortunate yidden to believe it is possible for them to gain control of their taivas and stay frum) is a positive one, but this was not the way to go about it.
I just googled it, “curiousjew” blog that sam2 said to look for also has a transcript of R Twersky’s response.
Health – okay, ill try to do this slowly. Do me a favor though, read what I write and try to think about what the words mean before you shout obscenities back.
a) I’m an am haaretz? Why must you resort to personal attacks? That is not the way a ben torah should act at all, let alone having a discussion with a fellow Jew.
b) In the first portion of your post, you tell me “don’t assume anything” yet you proceed to quote where you yourself said
“so I can only assume that e/o there including the Rabbis have no objection because Shtika K’hodoah!
I heard No Public objection!”
I have a hard time believing you were following the story closely enough, reading reliable enough sources to hear anything close to resembling balanced and fair reporting, and if you were, I’m sure you would have heard their objections.
c) again, calling me lazy – that sounds quite immature of you. The point is you are biased in your “interpretation” (loosely speaking) of what was said.
d) let’s get one thing straight – there is no “CEO” of YU. It is a huge organization, with many distinct parts. NOBODY speaks for everybody here. You havent mentioned the President of Touro once in your support of attending there; he is for most purposes, irrelevant to students at the institution; same goes for YU.
e) What the current President and Board believe with regard to ANYTHING is irrelevant to this discussion as long as any frei beliefs they hold do not make there way into any policy of the institution, of which there have been none. So in being dan lekaf zechus of them and judging them based on their past performance, I would say they do not hold of any frei ideals, and you insinuating the possibility otherwise is uncalled for and offensive.
One of the things they like to teach in YU is how to have an intelligent and balanced discussion; you would gain a lot attending for a semester or two.
I can honestly say I really do not like having these “conversations” with you because there isn’t much of a conversation at all in my opinion, let alone the above mentioned intelligent conversation or debate that I have become accustomed to expecting when speaking with other people.
Health – I assume you have learned some gemara over the course of your life. Can you really say, with certainty, that no RY has come out against what you are quoting R Lamm as saying !? (I say “you assume” because what you just typed is definitely not a direct quote, and you’ll have to forgive me for taking your interpretation with a grain of salt).
Eidim can only testify that one did not pay back a loan in their presence, not that it was never paid back at all! IF what you are saying is close to the truth, you still cant throw everybody associated with YU into that group…
and btw, in any case, how much is R lamm involved with YU these days? I didn’t go to YU in previous years, all I know is what it’s like now – and so I can say it IS run according to halacha – and you haven’t brought any evidence to the contrary either.
Jothar – exactly as everything you quoted says – YU Roshei Yeshiva were against what the event became, and should not have happened as it did. But “support” those people felt was intended to be that people will be sensitive to their issues – never to legitimize practicing any aveiros.
As R Twersky said, the event was a chillul Hashem and showed YU in a negative light because of the way it was interpreted by people who saw what the event as it happened – not b/c all of YU endorsed it. (He was not saying it accurately reflects the YU community) But this again is saying that YU was against it, and in no way shape or form endorses michkav zachar or supports those who have those urges, other than in a counseling context.
Counseling those with issues sounds like a positive thing to me.
And now that you have read everything you posted you should be the first NOT to lump YU all together characterized by that event, since you read about all the aftermath there distancing those events from the rest of YU.
And also, that is quite different than the “mishkav zachor support group” you referred to originally.
^ what Sam2 said.
And again just for the record – MANY of the non religious students who are accepted to YU become more frum and involved with yiddishkeit after being there. The fact they have all types of Jews under one roof is a strength and not a weakness… its called ACHUS. If we only keep within the people who talk, dress and think like us, but cry about all the problems facing am yisroel, not much will get done.
This isn’t a conversation if one side keeps ignoring the other’s points without addressing them.
Jothar – which “Mishkav Zachor Support Group” are you referring to? (beware: I’m testing your ignorance)
And again, the Beacon is run completely by a small group of students – not directly by the administration, yeshiva, or popular opinion of the students.
Health – what does “run acc. to halacha” mean? The Yeshiva and University are certainly; but the students do not have their personal lives controlled. You may ask, so how could this article have been printed? There is no direct oversight, but once it was printed, it was taken down until the Beacon severed all ties with YU. (At request of the Student body – who didn’t want that article there – for the record)
For the record, Touro isnt a “Jewish” college. The “University” in YU isn’t a religious college, but it IS Jewish. In any case, the Yeshiva is not to be confused with the University though.
Mods,
Can we close this? It’s gotten pretty ridiculous.
But before you do…
Health, my friend. Why the name calling? Why the personal attacks? Do you consider yourself a Ben Torah? Is this how one should act?
What reason do you have to call into question President Joel’s frumkeit? Yes, he is shomer Shabbos, and I’m offended by you asking that. And I assumed you were talking about President Joel because you mentioned the President of YU…. I’m missing my “inconsistency.”
Your inconsistencies on the other hand begin with your personal attacks on the holier than thou platform of defending the Shem of Touro hakadosh. And your decrying Lashon Hara and Motzi Shem Ra as you cast aspersions on an entire institution of thousands of people who (at least regarding the leaders) by no means can be put into the same category other than “orthodox.”
I’m curious if you would call Rav Hirsch a frei yid as well C”V?
a) What makes you call me an MO Jew, and why would that make me any less capable of pointing out your inconsistencies?
b) Excuse me, but where did President Joel say that MO is different than “Orthodox”?
c) Nobody – again – NOBODY considers Richard Joel a Rosh Yeshiva, or the voice of the Yeshiva.
d) You’re right, YU is not like other Yeshivas. That is not the issue at hand.
Nisht Ahe Nisht Aher –
What toeva movement are you talking about? The fact is there is no “movement” in YU.
Nono, but what you are trying to say is probably right; we should ignore all problems in society instead of actually trying to deal with them within the contexts of Torah. Better everyone work out their own problems by themselves in quiet misery and tough luck if they fail.
Assumedly, you consider yourself someone who went to a “Real Yeshiva” and is on the right derech. So why would there ever be an excuse to not act civilly? Or to do something against one’s morals because one is being “forced?”
The rest of us are engaging in civil discussion, merely point out some of the objective differences and unique qualities of the institution. Again, chill out bro. One thing they apparently left out of the elite program you’re in/went to is how to engage in a civil, intellectually honest discussion based on fact.
okay health,
again, way to go casting aspersions on everybody in the institution “Another YU guys trying to twist the truth” – and you are the one decrying lashon hara and motzi shem ra? nice…
Secondly – the same way everybody in Am Yisroel has the potential to either make a kiddush Hashem or chillul Hashem, even if they are not our elected leaders, the same holds true for any company/organization group – ESPECIALLY when they are hired and/or accepted to the institution and not just born into their position.
And FYI Sarbanes Oxley Act (for those familiar with accounting) actually DOES jail those in charge when an employee is caught misrepresenting the company’s financials. But we weren’t even talking legally – we are talking about a reputation as a whole – so there is really no relevance to the law so I don’t know why you brought such a comparison.
And then you continue to put down the whole institution – and then you stopped making sense in your last two lines.
I think anybody reading this thread who sees the way people either defend or are pro YU and Touro would be put off by your absurd attacks and straw man defenses.
pff! “I’m not even going to respond to them” – I thought we were having a mature discussion.
First of all
Secondly Health –
You wrote way back in the beginning of this thread in response to my criticism of your post for generalizing YU hashkafa and you replied
“Look what I posted was based on a former poster named Charlie Hall who said that even their students who are seeking to become Rabbonim are encouraged to learn secular studies. Whether my choice of the word “complete” might not be totally accurate -my description is. Even if not every Rebbe there agrees with this philosophy -there are some who push it. This philosophy is different than most other Yeshivos. This is why I don’t recommend it for people who weren’t born into a family with this philosophy!”
So you actually generalized (falsely) about an entire institution made up of thousands of people – who are very very diverse – representing the majority of them falsely with your statement. I’m no Chafetz Chaim but I don’t think that is kosher. So before you get worked up at others (and call into question our frumkeit? Really?) for stating a well known fact with toeles (You are NOT an objective authority to say Touro degrees are not devalued at all because of that incident, sorry), if not for only bringing it to the OP’s attention previous issues which may potentially be relevant moving forward (like a shidduch) it may be worthwhile to pay more attention to your own posts.
And the reality is, if one is an employee of the school, they represent the school, the same way the students who attend the institution do. They were hired/ accepted to attend by those people in charge. I don’t know where you get your line of reasoning. (and again, according to your explanation of motzi shem ra, you are guilty regarding YU to imply that YU as a whole, or even all the RY believe what you said)
Health
Chill out bro. Are you on Touro’s payroll or something? You seem to be taking this very personally.
Health-
Sorry, but I think you have misinterpreted YU.
1) As another poster mentioned above, other than the slogan “Torah Umadda” nothing unifies YU. If you ask each of the Roshei Yeshiva what that slogan means, you will get a different answer from each one of them. Therefore, it is inaccurate to say “YU has a totally different philosophy… They”. There is no “they.”
2) To explain the philosophy I think you were trying to portray as “YU’s”, I think you missed a few important details and nuances. It is not that one needs certain secular studies to be a “complete jew” but rather that certain “secular studies” until relatively recently in history have been one and the same as Torah itself. Therefore they are considered worthwhile studies to ENHANCE one’s avodas Hashem etc. Not “to replace” Torah study.
It is also important to note that there is also a great tolerance of different derachim in YU, so this notion of a uniform “complete jew”, at least from my experiences, is something I don’t think many would subscribe to from there.
To start, if you aren’t a great student then I think the decent/high average from Touro will do more for you than a poor average from YU.
In terms of the “Yeshiva” aspect of YU, although it has been improving it is still largely a colder “do it yourself” environment – which when combined with the rigorous schedule and coursework often takes a toll on the students. One Rosh Yeshiva explained it as “it is a beis medresh, not a yeshiva.” But as a Beis Medresh, it is a great makom Torah – the Roshei Yeshiva are huge and there is A LOT of serious talmud Torah and very serious messirus nefesh for Torah happening.
Academically – very challenging with many “jewish studies” requirements you wouldn’t have elsewhere (like hebrew, Jewish history, and bible). I would even venture to say the school takes these classes more seriously than most others. Ideally, these classes can teach you a great deal of necessary information and improve your understanding and appreciation of Torah; HOWEVER, all too frequently, I believe, they miss the boat and do the opposite.
I think he is more disagreeing with R Adlerstein’s implied characterization of the far left as including these people.
Well, his argument really only means anything if you agree with his definition of “Far left” to begin with. If you do, then he is explaining that all of the above mentioned things are outside the parameters of halacha and have no basis in Rishonim or Achronim (as opposed to the beracha change) and therefore SHOULD have been spoken out against by the “far left” authorities who assumedly disagree with those events/actions. Since they have not, their silence have given people the impression that the “far left” indeed does agree with those practices, which he contends they do not. Thus, those are the boundaries that need to be drawn to clearly represent what the far left really does believe in.
In reality though, the definition of “far left” has no real nafka minas, because either you subscribe to their hashkafa and rulings or not, regardless of what you label them. They both agree once you are out of halacha, you’re done, and not given any authority or the opportunity to have your opinion entertained. They both agree (I think?) that those who raise valid points, within the contexts of halacha, that would contribute improvements to society at large, are still in our camp. So yea, no nafka minas as I see it.
Poppa, hope this helps. And if it didn’t – sorry, I really wrote this off the cuff; its been a while since I read the first article and just don’t have the time to redo it.
Why must someone be Jewish to be a nice person? There are plenty of nice non-Jews; I don’t think that the fact she was non-Jewish should be the focus of surprise, but more the magnitude of the chessed committed in general.
“Accounting School” is just an undergraduate degree. Before one can sit for the CPA they need to go through an approved CPA program (no easy way out). To apply to medical school, you need an undergraduate degree. People who go to decent schools and get good grades still often don’t get accepted to Medical school, so I could almost guarantee that a BTL won’t get you in, even if you somehow managed to teach yourself Bio, Chem, Orgo, and Physics well enough to do well on the MCAT. Law school is theoretically the only grad school that has no set prereqs, but as others have said (it isn’t my area of expertise) it is extremely difficult to get into a decent/good school with a BTL, which makes all the difference in law.
Lakewood and BP aren’t exactly the shtetles our ancestors grew up in either. Both “MO” (which cannot be singularly defined by one person for everybody because of the huge spectrum) and the “Chareidi” communities in America have, to varying degrees in various areas, been influenced by, and openly employ, modern society’s practices. For better and for worse.
In my opinion, the way I define the Modern Orthodoxy I practice, the “Modern” isn’t the ikkar; it just modifies the orthodoxy ONLY to the extent of acknowledging that the world we live in has changed, so the day to day APPLICATIONS of the ancient, immutable, all important Torah may have adjusted. The Torah and its values stay 100% the same. This has been a constant practice throughout history, for poskim and gedolei hador to apply the unchanging Torah to the modern realities and issues at hand – hence “Modern Orthodoxy”. For example, people don’t make their livings drawing water for the shtetle of all frum yidden anymore. They interact with all sorts of people, out of necessity, sometimes unaffiliated Jews, sometimes nonjews. MO recognizes the importance of making a kiddush Hashem with these people and emphasizes the kavod habrius aspect of these interactions. Hence, one may not be ignorant of social etiquette or “common knowledge”. Hence, MO would say once a woman in a business environment extends her hand for a handshake, you can meet her hand. (deadfish or not, you touch). Others rule not to do this… for obvious reasons.
The point is, MO (at least when you are keeping the “O”) to me, is not changing halacha chas veshalom, only modifying the emphasis in accordance with our necessity to interact with modern society.
I set the guidelines for myself as: get involved with “modern society” to the extent that it is necessary to make a parnassa and help me be megalleh yichud Hashem by making a greater kiddush Hashem among Jews and nonjews (which ramchal says is the point of creation- so I wouldn’t consider that a tier 2 compromise).
Amused
because they live in modern society? And don’t see it as entirely evil to be shunned through and through? (Not saying that all “others” believe the contrary, just this is emphasizing it. Personally I agree with Sam2 and think these labels have no clear objective definition and don’t do Am Yisroel much good at all)
Thanks!
Bouncy
Are you sure your references are doing you justice?
Some colleges only care about the score out of 1600 for their honors programs. YU (at least when I applied) only cared that one had a 1400 out of 1600. I know Rutgers also had a requirement of 1350, with no less than 650 in either of the sections.
I’m not sure how colleges value the writing sections these days.
fyi, the time limit for the essay is 25 minutes.
and another fyi/ps: PSAT were out of 2400, true, but that did not include the essay, only the multiple choice writing section.
guard your eyes
I was going to get a blackberry but I wasn’t aware of any filtering system for it on BIS so I didn’t. I checked your site again and still didnt find anything. Could you (or anybody else) post a link to blackberry filters please?
Thanks
end of perek shlishi in mesechet megillah 25B it says it is muttar to mock avodah zara and goes in to all sorts of fun examples. But it doesnt say anything about it being a mitzvah (at least, not there)
Im just thinking out loud but….
how is going to a store with the sole intention of shopping, when one knows for sure there will be pritzus around, any different than going to the beach ? There are other stores that dont have pritzus around, and there is always the possibility of ordering online from that specific store (to get around the issue of nidda in the water, assume they arent going swimming but want to enjoy the boardwalk during the day/ volleyball)
IMHO
well, first think about why you want to daven. If it’s a feeling that you cant really explain, or is more intellectual than emotional, do you think you would have an easier time learning about tefillah and its importance? Maybe will a little added inspiration you will be able to overcome that feeling when you just get up.
Also, a Rebbe of mine used to suggest planting physical reminders of what we want to do and those moments of clarity we sometimes have. Maybe it means putting a post-it note above your bed telling yourself to daven, or your siddur on top of your alarm. If it takes guilt to get you started, shelo lishma ba lishmah.
Another alternative could be to say you will put x amount of money in tzedaka if you miss davening on purpose. I know of people who have been successful using this in other areas.
Hope this helps, much hatzlacha, and yashar kochacha
1) It is prohibited for a male to [intentionally] smell the perfume that is on a [forbidden] female. (Shulchan Aruch Even HaEzer Siman 21:1. See also Mishna Berura Siman 217:17)
According to some Rishonim this is a biblical prohibition. (See Rambam Pirush Hamishnayos Sanhedrin Perek 7 on Mishna on 54a and Sefer Chareidim Perek 28 quoting the Tashbatz. They say that the prohibition of “Lo Tin’af” is also read “Lo Tehene L’Af, do not have pleasure with your nose”. See also Sefer Chareidim perek 15 that there is an additional prohibition of “Lo Tikrevu L’Galos Ervah” as anything that causes one to get closer to transgressing Arayos is biblically prohibited.)
2) Perfume on a girl below the age of twelve, according to some Poskim it may be smelled while others are stringent and disallow this as well. (See Mogen Avrohom Siman 217:10 and Mishna Berura S”K 16)
Taken from halachafortoday.com
Some Poskim even prohibit a man from smelling his wife’s perfume on her when she is a Nidah. (Mishna Berura ibid.)
taking a break,
2 points for you!
Mikehall
You WILL hear this talk from some professors in YU, Stern (cant speak for etc), just fyi.
And to the OP
something tells me the professor doesn’t care about a certain midrash, whatever it says. And if college has taught me anything, it’s sometimes you just need to keep quiet, and let the monkey in charge think everybody agrees with him/her. It doesn’t hurt the professor when you don’t do well in the class, and there is always that subjective aspect of the grade.
OY VEY
I apologize for this in advance…. but… you have a few grammatical errors in your post as well.
A) You should have written “manifested” not “manifest.” The form you used refers to a ship’s manifest, or a manifest of cargo. See thefreedictionary.com for further info.
B) “Grammar” is a noun, not an adjective. You should have said “grammatical errors.”
I hope you can forgive me…
You also can’t just not believe something because you decided you want to, either
Heritage Tours with Rabbi Kreiger who runs the Shem Olam Holocaust institute… He is officially involved in digging and researching… many of the stories other groups heard actually involved him and his discoveries; added an extra level of reality.
it depends on who you are and whether there is a good reason somebody might be trying to contact you for a legitimate purpose