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What happened to being a “glaache mechel”? Why must things be said obliquely? With some thought and consideration for the feelings of others, anything can be said respectfully AND directly.
For all those who continue to refer to Ben Gurion’s agreement with the Chazon Ish; let’s consider the implications. If you wish to go by the letter of the agreement at the time, it was an exemption from service – it didn’t include the more than $14,000 US per year that kollel learners are currently receiving from the government. So perhaps you are right, and the exemption should be extended. And perhaps the letter of the agreement should be respected, and the current subsidies eliminated. University students who receive similar stipends made their own arrangements.
Let’s also consider the circumstances. Do you also want to go back to the rationing and privation of the 1949-1955 era in Israel? And let’s look at what was not in the agreement, but was done anyways. Just one example – several prominent Chareidi and Chareidi oriented Yeshivos benefited from land grants given by the government. I can think of one particular example, on the Kotel Plaza, that was given by the government to the yeshiva for $1. I know this because of my personal involvement with the organization, and its major donors. Another Chareidi Yeshiva land plot in the Old City was granted outright.
Of course, Chalilo V’chos that anyone should show some hakoras hatov for that, or for the social responsibility it represents which is an evolving rather than static relationship.
C’mon, Morah Rach, if it isn’t in Yoreh Deah then there must be a kol koreh out about it somewhere. In any case it is obvious that the wearing of sweatshirts by young women is clearly against the will of daas torah, and therefore must be prohibited. I’ll be sure to make a macho’oh next time I see such licentious behaviour.
Well, if you don’t see a difference between actively engaging in avodah zarah and encouraging people to do it on the one hand, and on the other hand spending money on supporting limud Torah – to even a small extent- while neither encouraging nor discouraging people from doing what they want within the law, where the alternative to frumkeit isn’t avodah zara, but rather apathy and doing little or nothing of ANY religious nature, so be it. But I see the differences as obvious and major.
Popa I agree and at least for myself, set out my reasoning for possibly considering the parameters of “rule” and the Jewish nature and divine hashgocho of a Jewish state in view of Rambam’s position as applicable. But as I said, as I’m not convinced 100% myself, I sure wouldn’t tell someone else it is the case.
The arguments I’ve made in the past as to why IDF or national service is a fully shared responsibility have other sources and rationales. Some of them are moral and thus implicitly rather than explicitly halachic; others are consequential to living in and benefiting from a democracy.
Popa, agreed that the matter needs birur, and one can’t assume a priori that the Rambam Avi K quoted automatically applies.
If I agreed with Avi K that it does apply automatically, I would have been there and serving in the IDF myself when I was younger (something I came very close to doing at the time). Though I didn’t ultimately decide to go, fortunately I found ways to work for the benefit and defense of am Yisrael and the state that I hope have been productive.
Nonetheless, there is ample evidence in Neviim that there were good, not quite so good, and simply evil kings among Malchus Yehuda before churban bayis rishon. Until after Yoshiahu’s reign, though, HKBH did not withdraw his “hashgocho” on the war fighting and winning prerogatives of these kings. Some kings, such as the evil Achav of malchus Yisrael, were granted military victories despite the legitimacy or the halachic fidelity of the king.
The following is admittedly speculative, and I am not attempting to tell anyone it is clear halocho. It is, however, reasonable.
If I had to presume, I’d theorize that the current memshala falls somewhere in the middle on the scale of righteousness compared to these kings. Certainly not comparable to the righteousness of Asa, Yehoshafat, or Chizkiyahu, but not comparable either to Menashe or Amon, or Achav, for that matter. And if HKBH didn’t withdraw his national “hashgocho” on these despite their sins, I don’t think an inference of some degree of national hashgocho on the current memshala is unwarranted.
The question of what is a Jewish state is a much harder one to analyze. I would say only this. Since RIshonim, Acharonim, and current halachic decisors have applied the interpretation of the concept of dina demalchusa dina to various forms of government – from kings and emperors to the oligarchies of Venice and Genoa, or the Lord Protector of revolutionary England, or the Committees of Public Safety in Revolutionary France, or the democracies of modern Western societies, There is an implicit recognition in halocho that “malchus” may mean “rule” or “government” more than it means literally “kingship”. How it is them applied as per hilchos milchomo is a harder nut to crack.
popa, that question you asked Avi K gets in to another area – Rambam’s and other’s discussion of what constitutes a milchemes mitzvah, what constitutes a milchemes reshus, and what a milchemes chovah, as it is described in the rishonim. I don’t have all of the sources in front of me, so I will ask instead of state – if defending Jewish lives and land in eretz Yisrael proper is either a milchemes mitzvah or a milchemes chovah, does that obligate one to fight, or at least support the capacity to fight such milchamos?
Health, though I have spent a lot of time in Israel over the years, and done a lot of work for Israel both there and abroad, I do not live there, never have, and never said so.
Please cease using such intemperate words such as accusing me of “cursing out” the Chareidi community. I have never done so. Making the accusation makes you a liar, because you can check each one of my posts for years. I recognize serious problems in the chareidi community, yes. I have grave doubts about many problems in the chareidi community. But I make such criticisms as I have dafka because I know that there is strength and will and virtue in the community to rectify its issues, to eliminate hypocrisy, and stop hemorrhaging its young who cannot abide its contradictions any more. My roots in the chareidi community are at least as deep as those of mine in the Modern Orthodox community.
As for national service, some options have been available for a long time, and these have been rejected for a long time.
I do not use every opportunity to put down chareidi Judaism. There are any number of chareidi-critical topics here that I do not touch, and there are instances where I have agreed with you, or with Choppy, or with Akuperma.
Englishman – apples and oranges. I don’t disagree with your statement that Israel needs spiritual capital as well as material capital, only with how it is distributed, and with the assumption that they are mutually exclusive. They aren’t for talmidim in Hesder Yeshivos, nor for those frum Jews doing sherut leumi.
Health – you and I have gone around and around on this a million times. I’m not going to change your mind, and you won’t change mine. But I would like to clarify for you that I’ve had opportunity to talk with Politicians from across the spectrum over the years, including Shimon Peres, Bibi, Yitzchak Herzog from Labour, Natan Sharansky when he was an MK and minister with Yisrael B’Aliyah, Yael Dayan from Meretz, Ehud Olmert from Kadima, and many others. At the time I discussed these matters with many of them, they were all open to alternative suggestions, provided the commitment was made for some kind of service, be it in Chareidi units in the IDF, chareidi affiliated Hesder yeshivos, Sherut work in hospitals, schools, and absorbtion centers, etc. The fact that Plesner came back so harshly is at least in large part due to the rejectionist approach of most of the chareidi leadership to even discussing possible alternatives.
Englishman, or Joe, or whoever you are – you wrote:
“They ARE contributing. Learning is the greatest contribution. Even if they don’t recognize that fact. AND they DID agree to the terms of Chareidi exemption from service. Ben-Gurion agreed to it with the Chazon Ish. And it remains current law.”
I said in a material way. You are answering something different. Nation-states must operate on objective criteria, such as taxes, votes, GDP, revenues, expenses, budgets, otherwise you get failed states like Afghanistan and Congo. If Israel turned into a failed state with a ruined economy because the government was measuring spiritual credit in figuring out its budget, there would be no more subsidies available for yeshivaleit, draft or no draft.
As far as the law is concerned, over 60 years, governments change, laws change, and facts on the ground change. Do you truly have so little understanding of demographic, economic, and political reality? I think, actually, you understand just fine, but are just obfuscating.
When I was a teenager, my US born friends in yeshiva had to register for the draft. But the law changed. The Americans have a constitution too, and even they have amended that several times. Less than 30 years before the agreement between Ben Gurion and the Chazon Ish, women where I live did not have the vote. That law changed too. When the law you speak of was enacted, there were a couple of thousand learners involved, and now the number is in the high tens of thousands, or more. And when the Supreme court strikes down a law, or the legislature enacts a replacement, It is the law no longer.
“Don’t talk that into yourself. They are NOT offering those options as national service. They will not offer Bikur Cholim as an alternative to joining the military.”
I beg to differ. I have had this conversation with MKs and with Israeli political leaders and diplomats personally, and with many secular Israelis who are prepared to tell their elected representatives to pursue these options, and I am also aware of the options for national service currently being used by National Religious young women instead of army, and such work in hospitals, schools, with the aged, with new immigrants, is precisely what they are doing right now. And what a wonderful opportunity for kiruv, too! so sad you ignore it.
“Many of those in elective power and many in the media would like nothing more than change our hashkofos. Perhaps they wont outright say as much, but that is part of their motivation.”
Forgive me if I rely on reality – they don’t care enough about your hashkofa to want to change it, except where it interferes with their freedoms or demonstrates what they perceive as inequality. You are spouting an antiquated world view, as if you hadn’t actually talked to a chiloni Israeli in the last 70 years. In Israel, secular “ideology” is all but dead. Look at Meretz, and how it has done in elections. Social protests as big as they are are about issues, like housing and education, rather than about socialist indoctrination.
“And we wouldn’t have had a holocaust oh HKBH didn’t will it. That too was a neis.”
I don’t know if I would call it a Neis, but it certainly was a part of HKBH’s ultimate plan. But I will leave it to others to judge the abhorrence of the comparison of the annihilation of 6 million Jews to the events which have allowed the largest number of Jews in history to learn and to live halachic Jewish lives.
GAW, if the answer is to be yoishev yechidi, so be it. But do it somewhere where you don’t take without giving.
1. The sense of entitlement of some here is truly astonishing, even after more than five years in the CR. Suffice it to say that assuming that the broad back of the Jewish people is yours to ride on while you choose to learn is a direct contradiction of a Rambam we have all seen many times. If someone chooses to support you, gezunder heit, learn 24/7. But when you are in a social contract with other Jews (never mind the hypocrisy of using the material benefits of any democracy while not contributing in an equal or even substantial material way to its well-being) you cannot assume they agree to your terms UNLESS THEY AGREE TO YOUR TERMS.
2. Not one of the defenders of the Chareidi position in this discussion has touched the national service option. Doing Gmilus Chasodim, Bikur Cholim, helping the poor, educating the unlearned – these are potential options that the “treife” state is prepared to offer as alternatives, in a manner acceptable to almost all, but you won’t touch these mitzvos with a ten foot pole. It thus seems that your shrill denunciations of the IDF are a straw man, because you won’t consider kosher alternatives, either.
3. There are still those who think that secular Israelis and the government in particular are out to “shmad” Jewish souls. Please. You inflate your importance to the average secular Israeli and the average government employee. He simply doesn’t care. He has many other priorities ahead of your spiritual despoilment. Where he does care about you is if you are infringing on his rights, or if you are not carrying a commensurate burden to what he carries.
4. Nisim happen because Hashem wants them to happen, not af al pi ken when Jews are not following Hashems plan. We have had nisim gluyim for over 60 years in E’Y. We wouldn’t have a Jewish state and a Jewish army if HKBH didn’t will it. At what point do you recognize HKBH’s will? after 70 years? 100? 200? never? Where do you get the gaiva to ignore it?
From a simple etymological perspective, nittel comes from the word “natalis”, which means “birth of” in Latin. But its not what you think. The date in late December was celebrated by sun worshippers (of whom there were many, all over the Mediterranean basin, 1900 years ago) as natalis invictus, the birth of the invincible sun, as that was the day the days began to get noticeably longer. Mithraism was more popular than christianity for a long time in the Roman empire, and they celebrated this particular day. Most scholars of early christianity will accede that if jesus was a historical figure, December 25 was not his birthday, and was adapted as such, like many pagan holidays (Samhain, Eoastre, etc.) to make the “new” religion more palatable to European and Levantine pagans.
Aurora, I wish that I was able to work as a historian! No, at this point it is simply what I studied at university, and what has informed much of my writing, teaching and public speaking over the past 25 years. I have been able to put some of that study and research into practice, and it has and continues to be a passion of mine. One of the outcomes I am most proud of was being able to put a filmmaker friend together with a Historian whose theories on ancient calamities at the time of the Exodus from Egypt I was familiar with. It made for a successful movie, as well as subsequent bestselling books from them working together.
All that being said, the argument could be made, and would be made by some here, that one can and should live a halachicly observant lifestyle completely immersed in the study of solely Jewish texts with as little connection to the rest of the world as possible. So be it, though that doesn’t work for me. Nor, I suspect, would it work for you.
Aurora 77, once again your unfailing patience and politeness are an example for all on these boards to follow. I’ll try to answer some of your questions – addressed to someone else – I’m not as polite as you :).
Please note that these are my opinions and experiences, and while some may agree or follow similar perspectives, there are many who do not, and I have no interest in telling them they are misguided.
“Given what you said about not studying other religions, do any Orthodox Jewish scholars (at universities for instance) study other world religions in the context of writing about or researching world history?”
My answer to this is a bit complex. I will give you two examples of Frum, even chareidi scholars who did study early christianity in the context of their work. Professor Solomon (Zalman) Birnbaum z’l who taught Paleography at the School of Oriental Studies at the University of London many decades ago was one of the foremost scholars of Paleography at the time and he worked on the Dead Sea Scrolls. In this work he encountered and studied texts that were among those sectarian (non rabbinic) writings that some early christians used to formulate their doctrines. He was quite frum, his sons were members of Agudath Israel synagogues, and his grandsons studied at Prominent Yeshivas.
Another orthodox scholar of the Dead Sea Scrolls who has had plenty of exposure to early christian writings is Professor Lawrence Shiffman, longtime scholar at NYU and recently appointed to an administrative position at Yeshiva University. I have and I’ve read a number of his books, and though his focus is on the early history of Rabbinic Judaism, he has clearly referenced his study and knowledge of early christianity in them, as well as broadcast interviews I have seen. He is also a proponent of centrist rather than modern orthodoxy, putting him in the camp of Rabbi Schacter, among others.
Finally, though I don’t know what stream of orthodoxy he considers himself to be in, Professor Noah Feldman is one of the foremost scholars of Islamic legalism in the world. His reputation is quite impressive, and I’ve heard his analysis owes much to his study of gemara (talmud) and the intricacies of halachic legal codes.
As a historian myself, I’ve studied Islam and christianity in the context primarily of how they interacted with Judaism and secondarily on how they impacted on Military, Scientific, Economic, Political and Social trends over the last 2000 years.
” It kind of sounds like this kind of thing would not be allowed, but what if the study/writing/research is done with the purpose of better understanding causes and effects in history, especially Jewish history across the millennia?”
One of the things you don’t mention is another of the reasons I studied christianity, and that is to learn how to refute missionaries. I have worked with a few anti-missionary organizations. The Rabbis at Jews for Judaism and Outreach Judaism (all of whom are orthodox), for example, have all studied christianity, have clarified Paul’s perfidious anti Semitism that infected the church, and have developed ways to combat christian missionaries preying on Jews who have no background or affiliation, passing off their “messianic” Judaism as something other than christianity.
Again, as a historian, One can’t fully understand the history of Judaism in the Diaspora without understanding where christian animosity, and later muslim animosity towards Jews came from
“For the non-Jewish people who follow the seven Noachide laws, are they allowed to go further and take up some more of the Jewish obligations, for example keeping the Sabbath?”
I will suggest that you ask this question of your local orthodox Rabbi. For yourself, considering what you have told us about your family history, I would suggest consulting with a Rabbi to determine what your status is.
“Regarding weddings, can an Orthodox Jew attend (I don’t mean partake in any of the ritual aspects of, but be present and silent at) an extended family member’s or friend’s wedding if it occurs in a church?”
There are some (few) sources who might permit being in a church building without participating in any ceremonies or being there while they are going on. Apparently Rabbi Sacks found a halachic rationale for attending a royal wedding, but I am not aware of anyone else who permits it. Though I have been invited to christian weddings, I have never been to one, and I don’t expect I would ever go.
“I understand what you said about there being no one deity who satisfies all of the world’s people’s idea of what a deity is. That being said, when people of different faith backgrounds gather at a vigil, for instance, and a representative of each group speaks in general terms about the love of G-d for people and praying for others’ comfort in times of grief and sorrow, does this kind of event jeopardize the separateness of which you spoke?”
For me, no. For others here, likely yes.
The sage and wise Wikipedia says British Empire and the Commonwealth. And Wikipedia is always right.
I’m not across the pond, unless you consider Lake Ontario the pond.
Considering the issues facing Kedassia about how to deal with certain problems that have arisen in the London Chareidi community, they might benefit from some consultation with R’ Mirvis.
I have always found R’ Sacks inspiring, and I highly recommend his Radical Then, Radical Now to everyone.
As a citizen of a Commonwealth country, I suppose R’ Mirvis will have some representative capacity for me with the monarchy, but other than coming to speak or spend shabbos with a kehila, R’ Jakobovitz zt’l hadn’t and R’ Sacks hasn’t spent much time in my community, though R Jakobovitz’s brother R’ Shlomo lives here.
Ben Levi, you have no idea how much learning I have or haven’t done – or anyone else in the CR, for that matter. Who are you to say what anyone’s perspective is based on, other than your own? Your assumptions, and your gaaiva are frankly breathtaking.
There’s a reason why Hillel is followed in all but a handful of disputes. Shammai’s perspectives, while logical, don’t often meet the standard of “V’chai bohem” and thus aren’t implementable.
And Hillel gave a clear insight into VeOhavto, and its corrolary. without it, learning is without legs to stand on, just as without learning, ahavas yisroel is without arms to help our fellow Jew.
You seek to justify an exclusivity of doctrine and “permission to have a Jewish point of view” so long as it matches your own world view.
I know individual Jews who know more about several mitzvos through experience and doing than you or I could ever learn from sitting and learning. If it makes you feel better about yourself to consider your “elite” perspective the one true way, kol hakavod to you. Enjoy the view from the pinnacle of Judaism. THe rest of us will try to live in the real world.
Interesting, Ben Levi. I recall learning this obscure passage in Gemoro Shabbes where Hillel Hazoken answers the mechutzaf about learning the whole Torah while standing on one foot. “What is hateful to you, don’t do to your neighbor”, explaining Veohavto Loreacho Komocho. As Hillel said, all the rest is commentary.
So to me, and to (I hope) most thinking frum Jews, if there is any mitzvah that outranks the others, it is to be an Oheiv Yisroel before you are a Yoishev Beis Medresh.
Sorry Uneeq, I included you when I shouldn’t have. Meant for iced and akuperma.
iced, akuperma, uneeq, I’m not arguing the case. As I said, though I disagree with you, I recognize that there is the possibility of a miscarriage of justice.
What I would like to know is how the actions of the community – the brazen activities of people from the community who violated the law by photographing the victim in court; who bullied the victim’s family and friends; who testified falsely in court that there is no such thing as a vaad hatznius; who tried to bribe the victim; who saw no contradiction in criticizing her for being motzi shem ra but then being motzi shem ra on her. – can be justified under law or halacha.
Without going in to the details here, the defendant admitted in court to doing a number of things that violate halacha in the realm of yichud and tznius. The track record of the DA is such that he has worked with the leadership of chareidi communities, including satmar before, and has been criticized for not be more zealous in prosecuting and publicizing what is being investigated. This case was so egregious that it could not be ignored.
But if YW doesn’t want to discuss details here I understand. There are other places for such discussion.
What perhaps should be discussed here is the brazen activities of people from the community who violated the law by photographing the victim in court; who bullied the victim’s family and friends; who testified falsely in court that there is no such thing as a vaad hatznius; who tried to bribe the victim; who saw no contradiction in criticizing her for being motzi shem ra but then being motzi shem ra on her.
The accused has been found guilty. If some doubt his guilt, its their cheshbon, and though I disagree I recognize the possibility of a miscarriage of justice exists. What is unconscionable outside the case itself, though, is the behaviour of those who seek to intimidate and lie.
Zeeskite, I promise you, I’m not smirking. And as I said, his music isn’t my cup of tea. But it isn’t disgusting either, at least to me. But if it is to you, don’t watch. We have that amazing gift HKBH gave us, called bechira chofshis. maybe you want to use it, and let others do the same, instead of telling them how to think.
If I don’t meet your definition of “Yiddishe Yidden”, I guess you’ve got more authority and holiness than the Eibishter, because I fit under his definition. But truly, you don’t define me. You don’t define Lipa. You are welcome, though, to define yourself.
Here are a few priorities that I have, before I critique Lipa’s kedusha or lack thereof.
Poverty in our community and beyond
Disaster relief in our community and beyond
Peace in Eretz Yisroel
Strife between Yidden
Educating my children, ensuring Jewish education for everyone
taking care of the seniors in our community and beyond
Learning whenever I can
My concern about abuse in our community (personal now, since a recent arrest was a former teacher of mine)
My job
My health
Then, maybe, I might have time to worry about Lipa, if I was so inclined. I guess we just have different priorities. But my senses are anything but dulled.
Hey, all those who think whacking your kids, or letting someone else do so is a good idea, because you are convinced it is not illegal, are you also going to beat your wife, because there are numerous sources in halacha that allowed it in certain circumstances?
Are you going to justify doing that today, too?
If you need a punching bag, go to the gym.
If you need to demonstrate power in your relationship wit your kids or with talmidim, do it with leadership, with example, with giving praise, all of which are way more effective than with fear.
I’ve had the pleasure of producing a Lipa concert a few years ago. He is easy to work with and a mensch. He has genuine ahavas yisroel, and it isn’t limited to Boro Park, Monsey, and Lakewood.
His music isn’t so much my cup of tea, but the earnest love for his fellow Jew that comes out in the songs and videos is crystal clear.
All that being said, the woman putting on makeup for a half a second was dressed fine, preparing for a chanukah celebration. You see more challenging images than that walking out your front door.
As for the Ferrari, I see the point. No one in these trying times gets much nachas from seeing someone driving such a car, and it is materialistic in a way that is the opposite of chanukah.
Image is part of the character Lipa creates for his shows, and the sunglasses, the bekeshes, the whole get up is a part of it. But I agree the car goes beyond this.
All this is beside the point, though. I think anon5577 is mostly right. If you don’t like it, don’t watch. Lipa will still be an ehrliche yid long after this video is forgotten. If you have no more important things to be up in arms about, though, you need to rethink your priorities.
The one before whom we will stand b’din v’cheshbon will determine the tzidkus of an individual. Not You. Not Me. And from where do you get the notion that tzidkus is something for which we have a right to make comparisons? Does the Torah tell us to measure tzadikim against one another? Does the Torah tell us to judge that which we can not know every element of? (There are numerous stories of hidden tzidkus by people thought to be misers or worse, who were found to be righteous only after they died, when word of their secret tzidkus was revealed)
I think the entire question, and the entire worldview of this tzadik is bigger than that tzadik or this gadol is better than that gadol is not only useless, but it is damaging to all of us. We should strive to accomplish what HKBH wants from US, not what we may perceive with our limited knowledge to be what someone else may be doing righteously.
In fact, I will go even further. I think it is not a Jewish notion at all. We don’t have saints. We don’t believe that humans, even the best of them, rich or poor, are perfect, or infallible. This is just another way to start a conversation saying “we” are better than “yenem” because “we” have or don’t have “x”.
I come from a family that in generations far past had both wealth and great lomdus, but also from those who had no wealth and little learning, but had the merit of chesed and ahavas yisroel. B’H, I like many of us, will have personal examples to follow no matter where we are with material things.
I’ve always been a student of military history and the naval battles in the Pacific in WW2 were some of the first I ever read about and studied.
Pearl Harbor can teach us still to never underestimate a determined and intelligent enemy, especially one who feels that they have run out of alternatives that will let them maintain their standing, or as they put it in the East, their “face”.
War is about winning, and trying to surprise an enemy is to be expected. What was unexpected at Pearl Harbor was the incompetence of US military intelligence, the lack of preparedness of General Short and Admiral Kimmel, the lack of imagination among many American leaders as to what the Japanese were capable of.
Considering 9-11, some of those lessons were forgotten. And though you may not be as big a fan of them as I am, Shmoel, the Israeli military and security apparatus, while far from perfect, and while having suffered from the same complacency before the Yom Kippur War, at least now lack no imagination in considering what our enemies want to do to us – Israelis, Jews, wherever we are – and acting first to foil their plans.
Health, you and I don’t see eye to eye on things like Zionism, but I agree with you on this 100%. And I would like to see from those who are telling us it leads to problems, evidence of more than one or two (i.e. a “problem” rather than an aberration that could happen same gender as well) licensed, professional therapist in the frum community who has taken advantage of the situation.
I’m a pretty opinionated person, and I have my own feelings on what can be done to deal with Hamas. But I am not the Prime Minister of Israel, I don’t have to send thousands of young Jews into harm’s way, I don’t have to measure the aid of the US versus my deterrence, I don’t have to answer the anger of the resident of the south, but neither would I have to make a shiva call on the bereaved parents of dozens of fallen soldiers, chas veshalom, if I made the decision to go in (which I think eventually Bibi will have to make anyways).
I just daven that HKBH guides the PM to the right decision for this moment.
As a lifelong Toronto Maple Leafs fan, I may be one of the few hockey fans who is thankful for the strike/lockout (if you know when Toronto last won the Stanley Cup, you will understand), but I must admit I am getting distracted by the blockbuster trade the Blue Jays just did with the Marlins. Let’s play ball!
Zeeskite, could you please clarify as per my post above?
I pretty much agre with Popa, with the small caveat that the OP is already Jewish – it is observing Jewishly that is in question.
On another note, there have been a few posts here about NCSY. I know that in some regions there is quite a bit of outreach to teens that are on the fringes of the MO world, but where I live, more than 90% of NCSY’s work is done with kids in public schools or non observant kids from non orthodox homes who are in the community high schools. There is an ongoing and quite serious internal debate within NCSY as to where best to deploy the limited resources available. The maskono has been that each region and sometimes each chapter has to determine what the facts on the ground are in each community, and do what is most productive there.
As to an ideological agenda, its not done so much, at least not until the participant has made a determination to be frum and for example spend a year in Israel in Yeshiva, Seminary, or other program. At that point hashkafic questions crystallize a bit more, but ultimately what drives the directors and advisors I know is what is best for the participant.
Zeeskite, if I am reading your post correctly, you are putting forward the monstrous proposition that gedolim knew with ruach hakodesh that millions of Jews would be killed unless they were instructed to get out of Europe, and they chose, without a bepharhesia directive from HKBH (and no one – not a single Rov or Godol or talmid – has ever said or written in the years since that they had divine instructions not to do or say whatever they could to save Yidden) to let millions of Jews die rather than expose them to the possibility (not the certainty of physical annihilation they faced in Europe, just the possibility) of spiritually being weakened or lost.
That is perhaps the most horrible indictment of Jewish leadership I have ever seen, and that includes the lies and falsehoods of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
I hope that my reading of your post is in error, or that you could state your belief more clearly. As it is, I am dismayed by the implications of your post.
Just my Hapence – you told me a few weeks ago not to continue with a question, it won’t lead anywhere good. So I’m returning the favour (yes, note the “u”, I’m also one of Her Majesty’s subjects, though not in your neck of the woods). Ready Now is not ready to discern that a real godol can separate the wheat from the chaff; he is not ready to accept that what Rambam read and did not read is something for which we have no evidence, as Rambam didn’t enlighten us as to what parts of Plato he read and why. As an aside, wasn’t Plato quoting Solon who was quoting even older Egyptian sources?
Ready now is not ready to understand that one learns the best use of language by studying how others have used it; Shakespeare taught generations how vast and complex the usage of English even in the 17th century could be. yeshivos and bais yaakovs have used his works for generations. Tolkien is also an excellent teacher in that regard, and there are few who can comapre with his style, structure, and approach to imagery. On the other hand, so is Orwell, who was an atheist, but that doesn’t stop yeshivos and bais yaakovs around the world from using Animal Farm. As you may know, one of the best essays on the use of language is Orwell’s “Politics and the English Language” which I highly recommend to anyone, and it is easy to find online.
As I have noted on other threads, Rashi was an astute observer of the development of French language. He included over 1300 transliterations to Old French in his commentary on the Torah, and over 3500 in the commentary on the gemoro. Does Ready Now think that all of them had something to do with the growing of grapes or the selling of wine, which was Rashi’s trade? Does anyone develop a vocabulary of over 5000 complex words in a language without reading it?
I don’t think Ready Now is ready for the mamashus of this discussion.
aurora, that’s a tough question to answer. On the one hand, some basic elements of kabala have become known broadly, such as the methodology of interpretation of esoteric concepts from text, or the meaning behind some of our lifecycle or holiday traditions, but there really is no “basic” knowledge – everything about genuine kabala is very deep and only to be approached after many years of study of the basics of Jewish law, Torah, etc. there are unfortunately many purveyors of fake kabala out there.
there is some engagement with the symbolism of the zodiac in kabala and in some of our prayers. For example the piyutim (medieval liturgy) said after the evening service (maariv) on Yom Kippur, for example, have specific connections to the different symbols. But it is not something I have investigated deeply, nor is it something I feel compelled to do or comfortable doing. Perhaps some of those more connected to chasidut can enlighten you about the elements of kabala that infuse their perspective, but I wouldln’t want to speak for them, other than to attest that there are elements of chasidut that stem from kabala.
My father z’l used to say that 99% of what passes for astrology today is absolute fabrication. The 1% that might have some meaning falls in two categories. The first is that 99% of that 1% that is in the same category as a baal ov or a baal yedoni – forbidden mideoraisa even though they have some power, according to Tanach.
The other 1% of 1% can only be interpreted through the prism of kaboloh taught by a pure and knowledgeable mekubal. There is reference to the mazalim in our davening, fyi.