DY – you wrote ” the Zionists theme of Kochi veotzem yodi” So you were indeed talking about Zionists rather than Zionism.

But lets assume it was an honest error.

I disagree completely, but I hear where you could look at Zionism from an angle that could be contrived to be described as Kochi… but even in the poetic dreamings of the early Zionists, it was a matter of will to accomplish in the future (for example, im tirzu, ein zo agada) , rather than “see what I have done” in the past, which is what Kochi is about. Once Zionism translated from an articulated dream into a reality that needed to be fought for, it is my opinion, derived from talking to the people who actually fought for it, that any vestige of Kochi…, if there even was one to begin with, went straight out the window as the miracles of Israel’s victories were revealed.

I submit that it is simpler, more logical, and more in line with how Zionism is articulated today, and for several decades, if not most of a century, that for those Zionists who are not motivated as Religious Zionists are, it is much more a matter of “ein somchin al hanes, but we will embrace what is given,” than it is of Kochi…

Gavra, watch the video.

Health, read the whole post, don’t cherry pick. It isn’t becoming of you to imply the opposite of what I wrote. Its also an immature way to debate. I said the idea that since an increasing number of yidden were learning as the number of those killed by terrorism was increasing, by your causality link, we should infer that there was a direct correlation. I then wrote that the idea was preposterous, just as preposterous as your reading the entrails…

Seems one can always learn new things. As an einikle of the Tosafos Yom Tov, I had learned of the connection and the mi sheberach of course; but having done a bit of research, I found an interesting concept, that The Chasam Sofer in Toras Moshe on Purim, as well as the Yismach Moshe on Perek Tes of the the Megillah quote a sefer She’eris Yisroel that the large Tav and Ches in the Megillah are a siman that the punishments that were supposed to be during the times of Purim for the various aveiras were postponed until TaCH v’Tat 1648.

I don’t know if one would call that reverse or delayed causality, but I do know that I’d have more bitochon on the Tosfos Yom Tov’s capacity to infer causality than on myself or any of you, or any contemporary theorizer, for that matter.

Health: As the numbers of CHareidim learning in Yeshivos in Israel rose in the early 2000’s, so too the number of Jews being killed by suicide bombings, shootings, stonings, and other terror attacks also rose. I don’t need to remind you. We all know the truth. Over 1000 killed, over 6000 injured. Among the victims were charedim and chilonim, men and women, Rabbis and rock musicians, doctors and students.

If you really want to go down the road of causality you are implying, then I guess that we should all infer that because more Jews began learning in Chareidi institutions, more Jews were torn to shreds, murdered, blown up.

The idea is preposterous, of course, as is your arrogation of ruach hakodesh – or reading of tea leaves – to determine the causality of the recent rocket attacks.

More Jews than ever in history are learning torah, tens if not hundreds of thousands of them over the years directly funded and subsidized by the secular Israeli government. That, from a causality POV, earns a lot of schar in HKBH’s protection.

Do you really think or know that HKBH is a “yeah, but what have you done for me lately?” kind of diety?

And do you ever talk to IDF soldiers, or leaders? I do. I have. The idea of kochi veotzem yodi is very far from their expression, and many of them acknowledge the nisim gluyim we’ve seen over the last number of years.

I have to agree with charliehall – you’ve come up with some really out there ideas before, but this one takes the cake.

The future of Israel’s Orthodox Jews? Strong!

How do I know? The answer is in Acco. In a fortress that used to be a British prison.

In that fortress, there is a museum dedicated to those who gave their lives there al kiddush hashem for Am Yisroel and Eretz Yisroel. And in that museum, there is a pair of tfilin. They belonged to Dov Groner. Groner was executed by the British for his activities in the Irgun. He was and is an inspiration to generations of Israelis. He was a yeshiva educated frum Jew.

He wasn’t ordered to leave a yeshiva, and he didn’t stop learning. He recognized his responsibility as a Jew in a Jewish land and he fought as well as learned.

He lived and died for the future of Am Yisroel.

The Israel that he helped to create has seen the most incredible expansion of Torah learning in the History of Am yisroel. Much of that has been subsidized by the state. A state interested in shmad doesn’t “waste” its precious resources on something it does not value.

The Israel he helped create has yeshivos where talmidim and kollel learners reach heights of dveykus and amilus in Torah learning, and then get in a tank or a jeep and protect Jewish lives. They aren’t in bnei brak. they are in Maalot, Maaleh Adumim, Ashdod, Gush Etzion, and all over the country. A state interested in subjugating and persecuting Torah learners doesn’t train them to arms they may take up against their “persecution”.

The Israel he helped create has had Prime Ministers who every motzei shabbos for decades brought the leading scholars from all fields together to study Torah in their households. A state interested in shmad isn’t led by those who value Torah.

The Israel he helped create has members of Knesset who learn gemoro from the podium of the knesset chamber, and who establish shiurim weekly for the MK’s to be inspired by Torah. Decades of chareidi politicians never did this. It took a woman, from a party being accused of shmad, to bring more holiness to the manhigut of the country.

The future is bright for those who actually care about the future, and who can think beyond their entitlements. It is an egregious, yet smug and self satisfying lie to insist that those who do not wear a particular levush or follow a particular hashkafic approach are not “frum”, are not “orthodox”.

For the first time in almost 2000 years we can think as a nation and take up once again the responsibilities we have as a nation. For centuries we had no outlet for this aspect of our existence but now we do. It is the opportunity we have to demonstrate to the eibishter that we can be a complete people, not a collection of individuals doing individual mitzvos. That requires both more responsibility and more ahavas achim than many are used to. Israel is the place and now is the time to show HKBH what we can be.

We can turn away from the challenge, turn inwards, if we choose to shut out the rest of the orthodox world who are moving towards that future. But if so, we should never again falsely claim that we look forward to the geulah. We will have refused to recognize its birth pangs. We will have made our insularity a liability.

We are all, chareidi, dati, secular, all of us, better than that.

May we all be zocheh to a complete geulah bimhero biyomenu. Chag kosher vesomeyach, everyone.

Troll.

While I believe that opposition to National Service if IDF is not palatable is wrong, I’d not make the blanket statement that “learning all day is very easy.” That is a provocation, and even though I disagree with the rejection of “share the burden”, I recognize that it isn’t an easy life that kollel learners choose.

Herzl was many things. A unifying, national/religious/military/social leader of a nation such as a Moshiach will be is well beyond his limitations.

There’s enough vikuach here. no need to add to it.

I have to be modeh that there is information here about R’ Druckman that if accurate may change my perspective on his conversions.

But for those who condemn R’ Druckman while holding up the clean hands of the ehrliche community, I must remind you of the “work” of the EJF, of a particular (former) Rosh Yeshiva in Monsey and his issues with giyur, and the significant support he received for a long time from many authorities in the community.

As I’ve said with regard to many issues here – no one is perfect, and we all have our hishtadlus to do, from great to small.

Mine is ” A tzemishte tzeva fun choiref” by Feivish Simon and Aryeh Garfunkel.

In the Megila we just read, Mordechai tells Esther that if she doesn’t step up and seek an audience with Achashverosh, salvation of the Jewish people will come from somewhere else.

I think that the corrolary is also true. If a person with taivos or character flaws uses facebook, they will possibly, even likely exploit it for aveiros, and that may lead to divorce. But truly, if facebook didn’t exist, the taivos and the flaws still would, and the person would use another avenue to transgress.

I’ve done some research, and every supreme court from the US to the UK, from Canada to Japan, and every democracy in between, is appointed, either by the cabinet, the PM/President, or the constitutional monarch. Increased democracy in the middle east – has given the muslim brotherhood the opportunity for a one man one vote one time hegemony where it has come to power. I’ll take the freedom of western liberal democracy – with all of its flaws – over that every time.

Your perspective, moreover, is ironically quite anti democratic. Having failed to persuade the electorate that being torah observant is in their best interest, and the way to demonstrate that is to vote for Shas or Yahadut Hatorah, you now want to restrict the appointed judiciary to toe your party line even though you have failed democratically in the legislative branch.

Would you have a re appointment every time there is an election? in Israel’s case, that wouldn’t even be long enough to deliberate on a single complicated case, in some situations. totally unrealistic.

Regarding Emanuel, according to Sefardi chareidim, the court did the right thing, and I agree with them.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not happy with the liberal slant of the supreme court either. But I guess I understand the dynamics of a democracy and the division of powers within it enough to realize that to change it you have to influence those who make the appointment.

The ignorance of basic economic and political realities here is truly astounding.

First – I live in a country with socialized medicine. It is paid for not only through basic income taxes but also through a surcharge based on salary. So someone who is deliberately not reaching a threshold for income tax is not paying for their medical coverage. Believe it or not, Israel is not the only place where such imbalances exist, nor the only place where they are remarked upon. The rational argument is that IF a person is incapable of supporting the system, the society has a responsibility to sustain him. But IF a person has the capacity to earn and support the system that funds his medical care, but chooses not to – for whatever reason, then the rest of society will see this as an inequity.

As well, many here have remarked that University students get many of the same subsidies as those learning full time. What they conveniently forget when they make that argument, is that nearly all those in University have completed their military or national service before setting foot in the university or being eligible for subsidies (an exception is made for students in special programs for technical positions in the IDF, where the students go to university first and bring to bear their engineering or other skills when they enter the IDF immediately after graduation. They usually consent to serve an extra year. At Machon Lev, in Yerushalayim, there are a number of students doing this, Learning in the Beis Medrash in the morning and studying engineering in the afternoon/evening, and then entering the IDF. Machon Lev/JCT is a wonderful example, and it also has Chareidi oriented non IDF engineering programs for men and women). Since these students have completed their service, and are then eligible, they wonder why others are eligible without service.

I’ve mentioned before that those things never discussed that enter into the discussion include intangibles, like government subsidies for corporations that employ Chareidim and others in high tech, or in underdeveloped parts of the country. Yes, the government would do it anyways, but the tax breaks or other incentives ultimately cost money that comes from taxpayers. If people are deliberately keeping themselves under the income tax threshhold, they are not carrying a proportionate share of the economic burden.

It goes without saying that legislation enacted more than 60 years ago to address the reality at the time cannot be held up as eternal law. Governments come and go, and their decisions in all democracies change. It is a wonder it lasted this long. Shall postage cost the same now as in 1948 because the government determined it cost 2 agorot at the time? Should malls and markets in Israel not have metal detectors and security guards because they didn’t have them in 1948? The idea is ludicrous, as is the insistence on Ben Gurion’s writ being extended leolom voed.

Finally, I don’t disagree with the concept that Torah learning provides an incalculably valuable service for every resident and citizen of Israel. It makes sense to me. The problem is, I don’t need to be convinced, the electorate does. Israel is a democracy, and in a democracy, you have to convince people to support your position, and vote for it. It is the height of arrogance to assume people will accept your dictate, as if you are a paragon of virtue, probity, and perfection, instead of being, like I am, a Jew who tries to do what Hashem wants and more often than not doesn’t fully succeed. To do this the people of Israel have to be brought to a love of Torah, regardless of whether they are Zionist, anti Zionist, leftist, rightist, centrist, secular traditional, atheist, or anarchist. If you want their vote, you have to do a better job of getting them to love Torah, because right now, its not working. If they don’t love Torah, then you have lost.

gavra, without the levush, the bnei brak address, the political expediency, and the opposition to the State, he’ll always be just another MO or Dati Zioni hack who doesn’t rate the time of day nor the respect of lomdus from posters such as you just received a response from.

In the R’Mintz/R’Margoliyus feud hundreds of years ago over inyonim regarding marriage and divorce – no less critical to the status of the Jewish people than conversion, it was the Rabonim themselves who leveled their criticisms. No tom, dick or chayim had the chutzpah to put down a learned Rov, privately or publicly. Apparently, masseh ovos isn’t a simon levonim anymore.

R’ Druckman and Rav Avior who but the beis din for giyur together ( I’ve met Rav Druckman and I know Rav Avior) are not my personal cup of tea, either politically or religiously. But their Torah knowledge is evident and well known, and their decisions were founded on halachic bases which you or I may or may not agree with, but which nonetheless exist.

Confucious, maybe they don’t want frum people in their neighborhood because they don’t want rocks thrown at them… And considering that they are Jews, and that they send their sons to risk their lives to defend Jews, you have some nerve calling them anti Semites.

I remember my first visit to Israel as a teenager. I was staying at a family friend’s apartment on Rechov Hillel in Yerushalayim. After a very busy few days, an exhilarating first Shabbos experience at the Kotel, and a long walk all I wanted to do was sleep. I lay down in my bed that Friday night, a frum Jew in awe of where he was, and all I could hear for the next four hours was cries of “Shabbes, Shabbes” and “Shaigetz, Shaigetz” from a crowd of at least 20-30 chareidi men on the street below, yelling at cars. This was in the mid eighties; this was not in or near geula or meah shearim, or any other chareidi neighborhood, it was on Hillel a block from Hamelech George.

Never mind the stones, the chilul hashem, the lack of sense in being mekarev instead of merachek; that was pure gezel sheina by any definition, for anyone in a two block radius, it was a ruinous way to start a shabbos and a visit to eretz Yisroel.

150 years ago, in Galicia, at least, if someone went out of the geder of the kehila, went to work on shabbes, sent his kids to a gymnasia instead of cheder, they may have been ignored or shunned, but no one attacked them violently. No one threw stones at them. No one spat at them in public. No one was mechallel shabbes to prove a point…about shabbes. So, COnfucious, where is your mesorah that this is OK behaviour?

OverPopalation? Can’t be. Never enough Popa.

Of course – default Judaism. Of course we were wearing shtraamele and bekeshe at Maamad Har Sinai.

Of course, there was no one in the field to leave leket and peah which are mitzvos deoraiso because everyone was in beis medresh learning.

Of course, the same default Judaism – oblivious of the fact, for example, of the takonos of Rabeinu Gershom. No multiple wives – Excellent takonoh – NOT from maamad Har Sinai.

Th truth is, this Lapid may indeed be “worse” than his father, because his father was consumed by his distaste for chareidm and all frum Jews, whereas this Lapid isn’t so easy to pigeonhole as a hatemonger, because he isn’t. He is more interested in effective solutions to what he sees as problems than he is in simply making public mockery like his father did. That makes him more dangerous to the status quo than his father ever was.

If you really want to put your head in the sand, I suppose you could ignore him. But he isn’t going away anytime soon. In his speech, I saw many things where reasonable compromise could work without compromising halocho. maybe that’s a starting point.

OK, Toi, I concede, but the only time I can think of saying it with a “ch” is if I had something in my mouth at the time. In any case, considering where the frum population of the city is slowly moving, More people will be talking about living in or going to Thornhill than in Toronto anyways. Most recent stats show Thornhill (Vaughan), Thornhill (Markham) and Richmond Hill have between 50,000 and 60,000 Jews. That’s out of a Greater Toronto Area of about 195,000. And many, especially in Thornhill (Vaughan), are, as you know, frum.

LKY – yes. Including two journalists @ the Post, actually, among others.

I agree with Health. I’ve heard him speak as well, and he doesn’t come across as a fantasist. And I think he has said he wants to end Chareidi, not Orthodox monopoly. He does wish to introduce more of a cross section of Orthodox Rabanim into the Rabanut, and there are plenty of talmidei chachomim who fit that bill, which while eroding chareidi monopolies in some areas, maintains a Torah standard. He may not be a friend of the religious, but I don’t think he cares to make himself an enemy, though that might be pinned on him by others.

Any responsible family checks yichus on its own in any case, so introducing “civil” marriages for the circumstances Health outlined may not be as damaging as you think.

The danger for chareidi parties is that they may have backed themselves into a corner by putting their red lines out there very early. Now Bibi can create a solid center-right coalition of 68 between Yesh Atid, Likud Beitenu, Yisrael Beitenu, Hatnua, and maybe Kadima’s 2. If you were a politician in his shoes, wouldn’t you rather meet the demands of 3 or 4 partners rather than 6 or 7? Where does that leave Shas, and where does it leave Degel? Sitting with Shelly and Zehava in opposition, I think, and that’s not a good place to be when every other party except the Arabs thinks differently about “sharing the burden”.

I highly recommend that you speak to your local NCSY regional office. If you post what part of the country you are in (not a specific city even, just like midwest, west coast, atlantic seabord, etc., I will get you the contact person. NCSY sends many dozens of kids as you describe to seminaries and yeshivos with scholarships every year.

Maybe we should ask the incredible women of Satmar who perform tremendous acts of Chesed in Hospitals every day what they think of Weberman, his locks, his trips, his “charitable organization”, and most importantly about his interactions with this young woman and the other(s) who have spoken up.

Of course, anyone asking them would need to guarantee their anonymity, because the vengeful pushback by the establishment(s) in their communities would certainly scare them off of going on the record.

Many of these holy women of Satmar have encountered female victims of all kinds of situations in the process of doing their incredible acts of kindness. I’d likely trust their judgement and their experience before I’d trust the deniers here. I wonder indeed what they would say if they could do so without fear of repercussions.

Yes I think Weberman did what he is accused of. Do I think 103 years is excessive? Probably, Yes, it is. I think it is about 3 times longer than it should have been.

SInce we don’t have a sanhedrin, we don’t operate under halachic courts on criminal matters at the moment, and we are bound by dina demalchsa dina as the USA is not an arbitrary and cruel government, Indeed the case was adjudicated as any other would be, testimony was given, evidence (as determined by the statute and by the judge, not by you or me) was given, and a verdict was returned. It isn’t an injustice simply because you disagree with it.

And just so no one makes the usual “you hate satmar” comments, I have described my tremendous respect for satmar chesed above; and I note that today an MO teacher in NJ pleaded guilty to similar type of crimes, and faces life in prison. The case was built in the normal way, as the weberman one was, and the guilty party will pay for his crime.

Oh no, MR,

“I live my life according to how I see fit and try my best to follow what I believe Hashem wants me to do. I don’t tell other people what to do especially when there is no basis for it.”

Makes sense to me, but its a different language – maybe heresy – for some of your interlocutors here.

here comes the hurricane…