Not learning sefer shoftim is perhaps a good explanation why achdus and ahavas yisroel isn’t much in vogue. You can’t advocate something if you don’t really know what am yisroel looks like without it.

Hey, I’m not a lumberjack, or a fur trader….

I don’t live in an igloo or eat blubber, or own a dogsled….

and I don’t know Jimmy, Sally or Suzy from Canada,

although I’m certain they’re really really nice.

I have a Prime Minister, not a president.

I speak English and French, not American.

And I pronounce it ‘about’, not ‘a boot’.

I can proudly sew my country’s flag on my backpack.

I believe in peace keeping, not policing,

diversity, not assimilation,

and that the beaver is a truly proud and noble animal.

A toque is a hat, a chesterfield is a couch,

and it is pronounced ‘zed’ not ‘zee’, ‘zed’ !!!!

Canada is the second largest landmass!

The first nation of hockey!

and the best part of North America

My name is Joe!!

And I am Canadian!!!

Its all true, except that peacekeeping/policing part. sort of. 🙂

Having the audacity to categorize talmidei chachomim who you disagree with in such a manner as nishtdayangesheft and cherrybim do reveals that in almost 2000 years, too many of us have done NOTHING to bring sheleimus to am Yisroel and bring Moshiach tzidkeinu bimheira biyomeinu. Nothing.

I’m not a chosid of R Weiss, nor a particular fan of YCT. I’m not beholden to YU, nor to Hesder yeshivos or their roshei yeshiva.

I’ve had, b’h the opportunity to interact with some of the people on the advisory board, such as R’ Sperber, with some of the leadership of YU, including R Schachter R’ Tendler and R Lamm in his time.

I had the extraordinary experience of being fahered by R’ Aharon Lichtenstein – but also of meeting with the the Lubavitcher Rebbe zl, R’ Shlomo Halberstam the Bobover zl, with R Adin Steinzaltz, among several others.

Why do I bring these gedolim up? I’m not doing it to name drop. I am sure that there are many here who have spent their lives under the shade of atzei chayim of great lomdus.

I mention them because I recognized in meeting them that ALL of them had a number of things they have – had in common. There was a sense of peace, of sheleimus, that could be seen, heard, and felt when listening to them talk Torah; There was a genuine sense of brocho when they asked about or responded about personal or familial issues. There was a light in their eyes. ALL of them.

I’m not a chabadnik, but I am bothered by those who denounce or badmouth the worldview of the Rebbe z’l. I am not a Hesdernik, but I am troubled when illuim like R’ Amital are put down.

I guess I see value in some things that escape the posters I mentioned above. Klal Yisroel, Am Yisroel, is much greater and wider than your daled amos. Eight hundred years ago, Torah Jews who were prepared to label the Rambam’s works Apikorsus led directly to the burning of thousands of volumes of the gemoro in Paris. A hundred years ago, Torah Jews were calling Sara Shenirer’s approach to teaching girls apikorsus and worse.

There is no one with ruach hakodesh posting in the CR. (except perhaps Popa, but that’s a different issue). Without that, you are simply unqualified to make the assumptions and assertions you have, and, I might add, so would anyone be, who is not on a level to know the plans of HKBH – and no one is.

And as we begin the fast tomorrow morning, remember that there are worse things than assumed apikorsus. Exile. Destruction. Death. Persecution. And we learn that great rabonim who sat quietly while a Jew was being shamed played their part. Kal Vchomer, you should reconsider your words against a fellow Jew.

As someone who has worked with kiruv organizations (several of them) for more than two decades, including with youth, I find the OP to be of questionable capacity when it comes to kiruv.

Shmiras Mitzvos is not all or nothing. That was one of Rav Noach Weinberg zt’l’s clearest directives to all those he taught.

90% of the kiruv professionals and experienced lay people would agree with the following continuum as to how to prioritize how you introduce someone new to observance to mitzvos.

Ahavas H’

Ahavas Yisroel

Limud Torah

Emuna

Shabbos and Yom Tov

Kashrus

Tfiloh, tfillin

More mitzvos as they can be included based on life cycle, community, and opportunity

Not laying on your back isn’t even in the wheelhouse. I think if this issue is so important to you it might be better to advocate to FFB chareidi kids who will understand the context than to these BT kids. You don’t seem to get it.

You know it is a few weeks until Canada Day (July 1). I think Toi is also Canadian – originally, and there’s someone from Winnipeg who used to post often. But Canada is indeed a pretty good place to live. A government that is a better Friend to Israel and the Jewish people than any other in the world; a robust economy that weathered the recession pretty well; good Jewish infrastructure; freedom; and a beautiful, vast landscape.

akuperma, the person who wrote “The Unbroken Chain” is Dr. Neil Rosenstein, who I mentioned above. I’ve spoken with him and corresponded with him (he sent me some sources for my family tree that I didn’t have) and he is, from a few lines, a distant relative of mine.

The assertion you make certainly wasn’t the focus of his book, and I don’t remember reading that when I read the very long and very technical book. ( He stopped making new editions and started putting together CDs with the information as he updated it. Much easier than publishing an incredibly long and very expensive book.)

It is clear that at some point during the crusades, the Jewish families of Western and Central Europe were reduced to a few thousands or tens of thousands. But this does not account for the ongoing marriages and movements of families from Iberia, North Africa, the Italian states, and parts of the Byzantine Empire to and with these drastically reduced numbers of families. The argument goes both ways – yes, extended kinship, but no, less of a genetic bottleneck than usually perceived.

My own ancestors at the time were as widely placed as Gerona, Lunel, Narbonne, elsewhere in the Languedoc, Paris, Trier, Troyes, Worms, Treves, Rome, and they and others were beginning to migrate north and east. See R’ Naftali yaakov Hakohen’s Otzar Hagedolim (out of print since the sixties, but I have 7 of the 11 volumes) for some more details about that time period and where Jewish communities and their leaders lived.

So while I agree that there is extensive kinship among perhaps a plurality of Jewish families, I do not agree that it is ALL of them.

It might do for some meilitzei hevel here to study actual history, primary sources, and base opinion on fact, rather than select, twist, or ignore facts based upon opinion – no matter how “holy” the source.

If you think the “Zionists” are intent on your spiritual destruction and replacement as their raison d’etre, you assume they have been asleep for 110 years or so, since the last ideologue who cared about your spiritual predilections wrote his last screed against you.

You who lash out at chilonim and religious zionists think way too much of yourselves. The secular don’t WANT to think about you. They would much rather be thinking about their business, or their wife or their wayward kid, or their next vacation. They don’t care what you do in your home or your beis medrash as long as it doesn’t infringe upon their rights and freedoms, and as long as you take up some simulacrum of the civic responsibilities they have been doing.

They don’t ideologically care what you study, they don’t ideologically care what you eat, they don’t ideologically care how many children you have. They do care about their civic rights and the responsibilities of all citizens. If you impinge on one and ignore the other, they will respond – at the ballot box, in the courts, and in the knesset, as you have seen. But deep down, it is pure and simple gaiva to think that Joe Secular from Cholon is more ideologically interested in destroying your spiritual life than in enhancing his own – spiritually, materially, or however he likes.

Who do you think you are you self appointed spokesmen, some characters in a Dubno Magid Moshol, giving a black and white object lesson in morality as the Magid did so well? That di andere is the devil and within the machne all are angels? That power, or the lack of it, now, in government, has NOTHING to do with the geshraai we hear from the chareidi street?

In only one way are the Zionists comparable to the Nazis. The Nazis didn’t discriminate between Orthodox and Reform, between chasidishe and litvishe, between ungarishe and galitzianer. Their plans applied to us all. The Medinah takes in all – from the Ethiopian and the Kavkazi you have written off, to the surfer dude from California you ignore, to the Baalei Tshuva from London you smile at, but whose kids you would never let marry your own.

The saddest part of this whole discussion is this. The great majority of the chareidi community does not agree with many of the fundamentalist rants of spokesmen like those here, or others we hear from. The vast majority are ohavei yisroel, are people who can see reality in front of their face, who would give the clothes off their back for their fellow Jew, even one in an IDF uniform. They visit the sick and injured, regardless of whether they are frum. They understand that economic realities will catch up with them, sooner or later. They know that halocho doesn’t demand that women sit at the back of the bus, they understand im ein kemach ein Torah, they want to live in harmony with all of their neighbors.

But they are too scared of what the implications are for their communal life, for shiduchim, for friendships, for being allowed aliyos or the omud in their shuls, for the ostracism of self appointed guardians of morality, to speak up.

What a shame.

Health, he is not a scapegoat, but a prominent part of the problem. And I am not trying to bury him, as if an anonymous poster on the CR could. I haven’t even mentioned his name. As I said in a previous post, The best outcome would be for him to say – I was wrong, I am sorry to the victim and his family, and I will not approach cases like this in the same way ever again, as molestation is a real, all too prevalent, and destructive force in our society – not for him to be “buried”.

One of the reasons I am so shaken by his stance in these cases is the fact that he suggested a few years ago serious and costly gedorim to a prominent youth group as to avoiding even the proximity of same gender teens sharing a room potentially coming in physical contact. So if he is aware of the practicalities of such potential issues (And he is. More than 200 people heard him say this), his only rationale must be ideological.

Additionally, There were 9 local Lakewood rabbis who signed a a statement about it who are also part of the problem, and there is one godol / manhig from Israel (of a very high stature in the Yeshivish world) who we all know of who got involved against the family of the victim. There is no accountability among these Lakewood leaders. There is no one in Lakewood who will stand up to them, because they are all afraid of being shunned, harassed, and driven out of the community.

Health – that is not the case with this Posek, who came to the same conclusion years earlier about a relative of this accused who also ultimately admitted to his crimes.

It seems that the underlying issue is that this manhig found it inconceivable that someone in our machne could possibly do such heinous things. Therefore everything that followed against him – even his own admission, must be a lie. And Nothing the outside world touches, even its officers charged to protect children, could ever be acceptable or appropriate in any way at any time, so dealing with the authorities is also a terrible transgression, and so now the “lying” parents of the victim are compounding their transgression by being mosrim.

If one actually travels down the path of this convoluted, twisted logic, it makes sense to write the letter that was written, and take the position against the victim and for the perpetrator.

But to quote half of a phrase from the malachei hashores, “Zo Torah?” Is it really?

I hate to say it, but the mental gymnastics I described above are not uncommon, both among balabatim and manhigim. IS it a sustainable approach to problem solving?

Health, for myself, as you have probably surmised from many of my positions in the CR, I go to poskim or Gedolim if I have a shaila, but I do not subscribe to the notion that my every move and thought must be done only with their Ishur. But there are many who do exactly that, and it is they who empower the manhigus that let us down in this case. It is them who must expect change, and advocate for it, even if they are unlikely to rise up and demand it publicly. It is them who the manhigim will respond to, if anyone, not to me.

JMH – maybe an effort to monetize the CR experience somehow. Is bitcoinage considered mommon?

Shopping613, yichus has its own exclusivity, without reliance on “certification”; so does the personality of each of the posters here.

I think I’ll pass.

zdad – the rabbi in question is the go-to posek for several OU agencies, including the one dealing with Jewish youth. He is regularly consulted, and is also regularly a participant in staff training and conferences.

This case is not only very troubling because of the facts of it, but also because of two public letters – one published by one of the major poskei hador in the US, and another signed by 9 choshuve rabonim from the heilige community in question, where the family of the victim was castigated in the most heinous terms, the innocence of the individual -who has now admitted his guilt as other victims are coming forward- was proclaimed, and the suffering of the child(ren) involved was ignored. As well, a godol we all respected from E’Y got involved against the parents as well.

If those in authority who we respect can not or do not make admission of their clear error in this situation, and what they have learned and will take upon themselves for the future, as the Rambam directs us, how are we to measure their words in the next situation, or the one after that?

One of those leaders is someone I have asked shailos of in the past. After reading his letter about this situation, I am distraught. I can not see him in the same way. If he were to publicly admit his error, it would help, but I don’t think I would ever have the level of trust in him I had before.

And should I?

I’m no chosid of R’ Weiss, nor am I against some kind of increased role for women in leadership roles in Orthodox congregations.

In terms of presence and leadership, the two primary elements cited by rishonim in excluding women from non rabbinic leadership roles were ” nikayon” and “kovod hatzibur”.

Nikayon referenced the role as mothers, and the needs of small children that mothers would tend to, and all that it entails. Kovod Hatzibur is by definition a subjective thing, and if the tzibur (not the rov) doesn’t feel slighted, the issue is diminished, if not removed completely.

A well educated and/or seicheldik woman who is not looking after kids and is respected by the tzibur should be, I believe, enabled to take leadership roles in the governance of a shul.

Even for the most liberal, though, could a woman fulfill all the roles of a Rov? She can’t be an Eid; She can’t sit on a beis din; She can’t daven for the omud; Can she be an encourager for the performance of mitzvos she is not obligated to perform?

Thus lots of reasons a woman can’t or shouldn’t perform all the duties of a Rov, even if she is just as well educated in halocho as one.

However – women are already fulfilling the roles of toanei halocho in divorce cases in botei din in Israel. No need for smicha to know halocho, and A woman can arguably represent the needs of a woman in a divorce better than a man can.

Also, as mentioned above, it is extremely uncomfortable for women to go to a Rov with issues relating to Nidah and bediko. So much so, that I know of women who simply refuse to ask these shailos if it means having to do so. The harm this potentially does to shalom bayis is grave. It seems to me that there is a need for women to assume a role as halachic advisors or decisors on matters of taharas hamishpocha.

As we all know, there is an enormous amount of expertise on kashrus issues among the women of our communities. It has long been informal practice to ask such questions woman to woman. Not much of a change to encourage their presence in kehilos as halachic advisors on these issues either.

There are other areas like these where a halachic role for women should be encouraged, IMHO. Resistance to this degree of female participation in halacho is on much weaker ground than resistance to the maharat concept.

Here’s a novel concept

– maybe the parents of teens in Brooklyn in mesivtos etc. should inculcate the menschlichkeit and common sense, as well as the ehrliche values that they wish to see, in a positive way, in the home, with good examples for their children. And if their children are ignoring these values, the parents should ask themselves why.

– maybe the mesivtos and schools, their menahelim and teachers, should consider how they are conveying what kind of behaviour they want to see among their students, if they are teaching these values in an engaging, positive way, and if they are turning young people on to Torah in innovative ways or turning them off of Torah with stifling and scaremongering. And if their students are ignoring what they teach, maybe they should reevaluate what and how thhey are teaching rather than throwing out impressionable young people.

– maybe, if they have done these cheshbonos, parents and menahelim and teachers could have some confidence that their kids, their students have been given the appropriate guidance to be able to walk in to a pizza store, get some pizza, and not feel a need or desire to socialize inappropriately.

Of course, if they don’t want to take account of themselves, if they don’t want to implement change if necessary, they can always ban their kids and students from the streets in their neighborhood. Now THAT’s a long term solution.

Sorry, I missed half of the last example. In Baba Metzia ayin alef omud alef there’s a discussion of a loophole – lending money to a non jew at interest, having him lend it to to a Jew at interest, essentially creating a third party loan, it is discussed and is acceptable. That’s the work around. Another example is heter iska.

We are the masters of the work-around – Pruzbul, selling chometz, charging interest to non Jews, so why should servicing a bedieved even when you claim the lechatchila is ossur be any different? A revenue stream is a revenue stream, and donors want to see the “product” go out to as wide an audience as possible.

Has anyone here ever heard the phrase “I respectfully disagree”?

Given that there are differences between our religious leaders and influencers of every stripe, and there have been for thousands of years;

and given that there are boruch hashem more people walking around with more Torah education in more places than ever before;

and given that HKBH gave us our own seichel and our own personal discernment, which we are commanded to subordinate to HKBH’s directions for living in his Torah, but which we are not commanded to subordinate to the will of another human being, no matter how much of a tzadik or talmid chochom he may be;

and given that in exercise of our free will to agree with or disagree with those who are almost certainly holier than or more learned than us, we will ultimately have to give din vecheshbon to HKBH, and not to anyone here, or to any designated defender of gedolim;

and given that we are all capable of being menshlech, even when we hold by a different opinion, psak, philosophy or worldview;

Let us resolve to respect not only each other, but also those termed “gedolim” by those who mean it as “manhigim”, by simply respecting them and not condemning them but if we must, rather identify the particular action or decision that they are associated with that is problematic.

It doesn’t cost anything to be respectful, even when you vehemently disagree. And no one is capable of enforcing an emotional or intellectual attachment or visceral dislike on anyone.

If I have not practiced what I am preaching in the past, I will do my best to avoid it in the future.

Yserbius – October 1992 edition of Isaac Asimov’s Science fiction magazine.

2000 years? sounds like the waiting time for my tune up at the mechanic the other day.

Yeah, though, I can see where you are coming from. Just imagine the thoughts of Abba Bar Poppa 1000 years ago, somewhere in the Rhineland, weeping over the destruction of his community by an angry mob as he trudged out of the town that just expelled him, stole his property and abused his family. I can just imagine him saying “If this is what I’ve been waiting 1000 years for…”. I wonder indeed how he would perceive a time and place, with all its many, many faults, where more Jews than ever in history live freely and can learn Torah and can defend themselves with HKBH’s help. I’m sure he’d find the reduction in subsidies, media bias and draft notices distressing. I guess its all a matter of perspective.