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December 9, 2013 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm in reply to: Giving Tzedkah to a Charity that uses Money for Expenses #992087yichusdikParticipant
A few responses, as this is part of what I do for a living. DOn’t know if it is the same elsewhere, but where I live, our CRA (Like your IRS) determines an acceptable proportion of expenses to be spent on administration. It has an acceptable level, a “flagged” level, and an unacceptable level. I imagine the IRS is the same.
As for events, our system has a component called “value advantage” so that any proportion of a donation at an event that gives some value to the participant is not tax receiptable. OTOH, as someone said above, if there are sponsors who have covered all of the costs of an event, this does not apply.
yichusdikParticipantNeither one is justified. They both have a moral and religious obligation to give or receive a get willingly and immediately. Not doing so is extortion, is cruelty, and is using the brachos Hashem has bestowed (children, first and foremost, as well as resources, time, and kavonoh) as leverage in a petty, materialistic, and vindictive endeavour. Its hard enough to move on and continue to do what HKBH wants of us without this michshol.
There is no logic in thinking that someone (man or woman) kept in a marriage against their will will have any interest in making that marriage work, and the resentment, the hatred, the rebounding of that negativity on children and other family and friends will only grow. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a deluded fool.
When R’G made his takonos I am sure there was opposition to them, yet he did so because it was in the interests of Am Yisroel. If those who are considered Daas Torah want to demonstrate why they are or should be considered so, maybe they could address this issue simply, equitably, and finally in a takonoh of their own. A Horaas Sho’oh, as the divorce rate has never been so high, but the plague of vindictive creation of agunos and their male equivalent has never been so high either. THAT would be leadership indeed.
yichusdikParticipantOne of my favourites from the Rambam in Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:10.
Unfortunately somewhat out of fashion these days.
“Anyone who decides to be engaged in Torah [study] and not to work, and will be supported by Tzedaqa – this person desecrates God’s name (Chillel es Hashem), degrades the Torah, extinguishes the light of our faith, brings evil upon himself and forfeits life in Olam haBa (The world to come); since it is forbidden to derive benefit from the words of Torah in this world. The Rabbis said (Avot 4:5): Anyone who derives benefit from the words of Torah in this world, forfeits his life in Olam haBa. They further commanded and said: (Avot 4:5) Do not make them [the words of Torah] a crown to magnify yourself or an axe with which to chop. They further commanded, saying: (Avot 1:10) Love work and despise positions of power (Rabbonus). And: (Avot 2:2) Any Torah which is not accompanied by work will eventually be nullified and will lead to sin. Ultimately, such a person will steal from others.”
October 31, 2013 11:53 am at 11:53 am in reply to: Onslaught of Frum People That Are Closet Atheists #984411yichusdikParticipantMarbehshalom, that’s your answer to this young man? Close the discussion? Threaten to “report” the website to “gedolim”?
What do you think that will do to his emunah? Strengthen it or weaken it?
What do you think that will do to others reading thsi who have questions….Sha, Shtill, don’t talk about it, I’ll tell on you! Do you think that strengthens their emunah?
This response to critical thinking is what Yungerman has encountered for years, and what has helped push him to look at the world in a different way than he was brought up.
He deserves better answers than “Close this forum!”
October 24, 2013 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm in reply to: If Jewish writers are so good, why don't they publish secular? #983544yichusdikParticipantLoaded question, loaded answers. First of all, Jewish writers, good ones, have been publishing “secular” for a very long time. They’ve been writing in many languages, including Hebrew, English, French, Italian, and Russian. Did you ever hear of Boris Pasternak? Michael Chabon? Primo Levi? CN Bialik? Jean Jacques Bernard?
As a writer, I know that one of the first elements of good writing – for anyone – is to be a voracious reader. There is something in our culture, clearly the imperative of learning, but something more, which breeds well read individuals. If they have talent, opportunity, and an experience worth writing about or injecting into their work, they will do so successfully.
Without exposure to good writing – and Akuperma, I completely disagree with your statement
“There is no “inherent” quality in literature other than what the readers will pay for. “
– a nascent writer will have no examples to emulate, no style or structure to model, and no foundation upon which to build their own unique literary vision.
(For example, the structure of the second half of the sentence I just wrote utilized the threefold example structure that I gleaned from novelist, poet and Professor of English & Anglo Saxon Literature JRR Tolkien)
If you mean “frum” writers when you describe “Jewish” writers, there are a few, like Joseph and Faye Kellerman, who have been able to make a successful go of it in the secular publishing world. Unfortunately, though, for those who restrict themselves from reading secular literature, especially the classics of earlier eras and some of the best writing of the 20th century, there is no substitute. Their writing will demonstrate the lack of influence they suffer from.
There is indeed a very well founded “quality” in literature that the late Professor of English Literature Northrop Frye wrote about in his seminal work “The Secular Scripture”, which demonstrates that tropes and themes that have influenced individuals throughout history are the foundations of any good novel.
I suppose that frum writers can be as “good” as anyone else in publishing pulpy, plot deprived, grammatically challenged, character thin novels, but I wouldn’t call it literature.
yichusdikParticipantReb Doniel, I don’t doubt you are a learned and upstanding member of the community. I am happy to hear you are involved so much in your kehilah. I applaud your interest in helping our youth.
I’m talking practicality, and you’re giving a list of Rabonim, most of whom I am familiar with and honor, but that is entirely beside the point. And the fact that you don’t realize it is beside the point is troubling. Practically speaking, not every regional director or chapter director has exactly the same hashkafic approach. For some, the idea is to simply identify those non frum kids most likely to respond to kiruv and turn them into frum Jews. Those will reach relatively few but have a high proportion of “successful” frum adults as an outcome. Others will work to reach many more kids, teaching them and influencing them and inspiring them, so that they make Jewish choices in their lives. So that they dont intermarry, so that they live lives guided by the ethical principles of our tradition. and some of these will want more, so they will be learning at Yarchei Kallah conventions, they will go to the kollel program in Israel, and maybe spend a year in yeshiva. And they will see all of that as success.
Regardless, though, of the particular outlook of the city or region, the point of contact has to be genuine and it has to be on terms that will engage the youth. If you can’t relate to their world, its not for you. If you cant stop yourself from justifying or even introducing your particular approach to hashkafa or halacha, its not for you. Because, Reb Doniel, ITS NOT ABOUT YOU. Its about them. Their journey, their needs, their relationships, their friends, their interests. If you don’t get that, you will not be a successful NCSY advisor.
I strongly suggest you consider what I am telling you. If you still want to be involved, speak to a local or regional director. They are some of the most learned and well rounded and tolerant and good humored and dedicated frum yidden that I know, and I know most of them across the continent. I hope there is some way in which you can be involved, because the work is very rewarding – in a spiritual, not material way.
yichusdikParticipantI wish you luck. You do need to grasp that an advisor is not, or not only, a teacher. He or she needs to understand and relate to a teens world. If that teen is a yeshiva high school kid, as in some NCSY regions, it might be easier to relate. If that teen is a public school kid with no affiliation and little or no Jewish knowledge, as in other NCSY regions, it might be harder.
There’s also age to consider. I don’t know how old you are; and there are some advisors (I’m thinking in particular of one very dedicated woman in Minneapolis)who are older (she is in her 50’s) but its uncommon, and 20-30 is the norm. There are also chavrusa and other learning opportunities with NCSY kids where age and relatability are less material to the kiruv relationship.
yichusdikParticipantYou need to speak with your local chapter or city director, or Regional director. There are opportunities to be a mentor, advisor, chavrusa, etc.
Expect that you may need to provide a criminal background check, references from a Rabbi or leader in the community, or other communities if you are new in town.
Experience working with youth is useful, obviously.
Advisors/mentors/chavrusas range from B’nei Akiva to YU to Yeshivish/chassidish hashkafos.
yichusdikParticipantYes, we are lacking in leadership.
We aren’t lacking in gedolim.
We aren’t lacking in Yeshivos, mesivtos, kollelim.
We aren’t lacking in self righteous middlemen, askonim, and the like.
But we are lacking in hundreds, in tens of thousands of Yeshiva and Seminary educated men and women standing up and relying upon the rock solid foundations of chinuch that their parents and past generations of our manhigim were moser nefesh to build and provide.
Are we lacking in emunas chachomim? Maybe. But if we don’t behave as educated, choice making, God fearing Jews, who don’t have a need to ask a “leader” which shoe to tie first in the morning, we are for sure lacking in emunas hashem. And kibud av voem, and hakoras hatov.
If you can sit in Yeshiva for 5 years and not have the confidence to look up a teyrutz before feeling the need to read a “leader’s” pashkevil about a halachic issue, there’s something wrong with your worldview.
If you can sit in kollel for 10 years and not have the concentration on living a holy life that will let you walk down a street upon which there are non frum people walking in their normal dress without feeling a need emulate what you perceive to be the will of a “leader” to castigate them for their impiety, you may have missed the point of view of Hillel Hazokein.
We are lacking in leadership, indeed. We have families to lead. We have neighborhoods to lead. we each have our flocks. We’ve been given good guidance, we have incredibly learned people to ask for help when we can’t figure things out for ourselves.
But we have only one shepherd.
yichusdikParticipantPardes in Boerum Hill, Brooklyn – unbelievable!
Yakimono II Sushi on Cavendish in Montreal
Carlos & Gabbys Brooklyn
Maple Grill Vancouver
Papagaio, Jerusalem
Marron, Toronto
yichusdikParticipantThank goodness we have guidance to subvert our use of common sense. I mean, really? Some gedarim are mandatory; some are appropriate in context. This one seems to border the ridiculous. Consider the environment – open, with other family members around; consider the people involved; bnei and bnos Torah, with all the benefit of their upbringing and education, so painstakingly created by the previous generation of gedolim, so expensively paid for by parents;
Have all their years of learning by example and in schools been for naught? Is this what we say – we immerse you in Torah, we teach you day and night, but we don’t trust you or the years of education we have provided for you to have a civil conversation with your cousin?
This is naarishkeit! It is the footnote to the creation of a generation of robots who can not make the simplest, most obvious proper choices for themselves not because they are incapable, but because the power structure of our families and communities demands that they not make choices as HKBH created them to do.
Yiddishkeit is NOT about the creation of a two tier society – decisors and sheep. The whole point of talmud torah from a young age is to create thinking Jews! So let them decide to have a conversation with a cousin, or not, and let them use everything they have been taught to recognize when and if it may become inappropriate.
yichusdikParticipantI noticed a distinction in what BYM was saying that seems to make sense while maintaining emunah, but which seems to be freaking out many of those here. It seems to me she doesn’t have a whit of insecurity about her emuna in HKBH, but has some challenges with emunas chachomim and more specifically with the methodology that has been determined to be right in educating young frum women. SOme of you may think that by questioning the status quo of practice she is showing weakness in her emuna in HKBH, but I don’t see it.
yichusdikParticipantI find myself (surprisingly, considering how often we disagree) siding to a large degree with WIY here.
One might be able to make an argument that there is SOME non Jewish music that is not objectionable and unlikely to have a negative effect on the Jewish soul.
One might also be able to make the separate argument that, say, instrumental music is inherently spiritual and without words to taint it can be uplifting.
One could even go so far as to look for and find heterim, leniencies, or personal justifications for listening to non Jewish music even with words. I can think of many songs with positive messages – but not necessarily Jewish ones.
But none of these ascribes positive Jewish attributes and outcomes to this music. Josh Groban singing about J but using Tanach verses to do so isn’t uplifting, its as depressing as combating a missionary doing the same thing, only Groban is doing it for money and the missionary is doing it for neshamos.
Lets not make an idol out of Groban just because he shaves and wears a suit instead of showing off bling and tattoos. At the end of the day it IS a particularly important time of year to have a particularly Jewish perspective on how life should be lived.
For the past 10 years I’ve been spending RH and YK in a very small town with a tiny mostly non religious Jewish community as their baal tefiloh and baal koreh and mechazek. They get little enough Yiddishkeit in their lives, it is sometimes the simple Jewish tunes I use in davening that make a huge impression of memory and tradition on them that I can then expand when I give a vort or a shiur.
I am a big proponent of taking what is good and useful from chochmas hagoyim, and even to a lesser extent, their culture. But that doesn’t mean we have to give it a mantle of holiness, even if we can get our heads around giving it a chezkas kashrus.
August 13, 2013 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm in reply to: How far must one listen to Gedolim (re: elections)? #971009yichusdikParticipantDaas Torah, meet critical thinking. Why bother thinking at all if there’s someone who can do it for you? Hey, lets just toss bechira chofshis out the window. That is, if it is permissible to open the window.
There is a difference between guidance and direction. Everyone who has a question or a doubt should seek guidance from their Rov or the leader they look up to. I am not of the opinion that everyone should abdicate their responsibility to use their own wits -and the Torah education their parents and earlier generations of gedolim struggled to give them- to let someone else think for them.
I’ve got no skin in this particular political game, I don’t even live in the same country, but it seems to me that there are always going to be things done, endorsed, or allowed by governments and candidates that violate a halachic world view. Some ( not me, BTW) might consider killing people in Iraq or Afghanistan as cold blooded murder done on your cheshbon as a citizen. Others may look at Obamacare as gezeilah. Others will look at child protection services as gneivas nefoshos. Still more may look at the fact that Wiccans or Mormons are allowed to practice their religion freely as enabling avodoh zoroh. Havent seen any letters about those issues. Wondering why.
But if one can get their head around governments or candidates enabling or endorsing murder, kidnapping, theft, and idol worship without issuing letters of halachic direction, I suppose they should be able to get their heads around toeivah too.
At least, that’s what critical thinking tells a logical person. If one is going to abdicate their thought and choice to someone else, the least they can expect is consistency.
yichusdikParticipantWIY – there have been several instances in multiple cities of chareidim attacking chareidi soldiers, exactly as you described. And yet not only has there been no Kol Koreh, there has been little public criticism of these actions at all by manhigim (There has been some, but not much).
And yes, I have an axe to grind. When I was a teenager, gedolim and manhigim like R’ Moshe ztl and R’ Yaakov ztl and R” Soloveitchik, ztl, and Rebbes like the Lubavitcher ztl and the Bobover ztl and others were attuned to the needs of all of am yisroel, were compassionate, logical, and were meikilim when the capabilities of the tzibur and the circumstances warranted. They saw the goodness in their fellow Jews who weren’t frum, they valued every Jewish soul and they didn’t spend their time looking over their right shoulder to see who would criticize them for not being strict enough.
Those strengths are not evident enough these days. There is a vacuum of leadership that needs to be fixed, or those not exercising leadership will become increasingly irrelevant.
yichusdikParticipantFor all those who say – “what’s the point of a kol koreh, its already a clear mitzvah, or a clear issur, like WIY, I’d need to ask, if so, why do we need the manhigus of our leaders at all? Its all in the Torah, as you say, and HKBH gave it to us!
Some people may be comfortable with such a relationship with HKBH. But for those who are not, and those who interpret Torah as mandating it, manhigus is necessary. As such, manhigim have a responsibility to all of us to LEAD. That’s my question. WHy hasn’t the leadership evident with WoW been displayed for other, likely more challenging issues?
yichusdikParticipantHakatan, i know Rav Gil Student. The work he has done @ the OU Press, Through his Hirhurim halacha blog, through his anti missionary work, and through his tireless efforts to bring Jews together brings more strength to any of his assertions to the palpably weak argument you put forward in the name of the Satmer Rov that Rambam didn’t need to mention them? Hey, remember R’ Yishmoel? 13 principles of interpretation? we say it every day? Remember the gezeiroh shovo? Why wouldn’t it apply here? why would rambam leave it out but discuss and describe similar heresies elsewhere? ayn al ma lismoch
yichusdikParticipantToi, your logic about rabanut hechsher could be equally applied to charedi yeshivos – i.e. since three charedi yeshivos in Yerushalayim were investigated and found to be defrauding the government with fake id’s of nonexistent kollel learners, therefore all yeshivos are “of questionable status”.
You and I and most people would call such an assertion absurd, but you seem to be OK with the same assertion being made about the Rabanut.
yichusdikParticipantActually, I am joking, referencing an oldie but a goodie.
yichusdikParticipantObvious why it was banned.
Could lead to dancing.
July 29, 2013 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm in reply to: Why are there religious Jews who are pro-gay marriage? #968484yichusdikParticipantcrisis +1
You know, Voltaire was a nasty anti Semite, but he wasn’t stupid. So when he writes in Candide “First, tend your own garden”, I think he’s onto something.
As well, living in a free society is not a zero sum game. You don’t get everything you may hope, wish or pray for, and you shouldn’t expect such from your government. What you should hope, wish and pray for is the freedom (as an individual in golus) to do what your God tells you to do, and for everyone else, the govt, other individuals, other faiths, to leave you alone with your freedoms.
If you want those freedoms for yourself, in a free, democratic society, you have to recognize that others with other agendas and other perspectives want their own freedoms, and unless you can demonstrate in a free judiciary that such freedoms of theirs impinge upon yours or cause you physical harm or loss of property, you must accept for them what you demand for yourself.
I have no argument about how you interpret what the Torah expects your perspective to be. None at all. As I wrote earlier, I am not pro-gay marriage either, because the only meaningful understanding of marriage I hold is a halachic one, and marrying anything other than a man to a woman halachically is like marrying a parrot to a rubber band.
But that isn’t the issue. The issue is – are you prepared to live in a free society or not? Do you understand what that means? Do you get that when the supreme court makes a ruling, you have no other recourse under law to advance your perspective, other than electing someone who shares your views to the presidency, and hoping that he or she will be able to change the complexion of the court and reintroduce the matter in another way?
What it boils down to is this. Orthodox people who are pro Gay marriage I don’t understand either. But Orthodox people who reconcile themselves to the reality of living in the medina shel chesed I do understand. They don’t and cant live in a fantasy world where all their taines are answered and all their perspectives are shared.
If you want to continue to enjoy the freedom to be a halacha observing Jew in America, you will, sooner or later, need to understand that the other 330 million of you have equal access to those freedoms. HKBH put you there, not in Iran. I’m pretty sure he knew what he was doing. But if you disagree, you can go to Iran. I hear they don’t have any M’Z there, so you can be pretty sure that marriage won’t be an issue.
yichusdikParticipantHakatan – repeating “zionism is treif” ad nauseum with your fingers planted firmly in your ears doesn’t make the assertion any more valid.
there is nothing hypothetical about our national responsibilities.
There’s nothing hypothetical about the soldier guarding Meah Shearim, or Bnei Brak, or Geula, or Beitar Illit.
There’s nothing hypothetical about a chareidi soldier walking to his home through any of those areas.
Zushy – its clear to me elements of our responsibility as an Am were taken away from us by our golus and without those opportunities our leaders focused on other observances. Now that we have the opportunity to fulfill them, saying they don’t exist is a chiddush, and denigrating those who do seek to fulfill them is the same as making fun of or putting down or not recognizing the effort of someone who is doing any other mitzvah.
R’ Wasserman is quoted as saying that if you make kivush more important than all the other mitzvos, its avodoh zoro. He’s right. But that applies to every single mitzvo, except, perhaps, recognizing HKBH’s soveriegnty or veohavto loreacho komocho.
No one made kivush the only mitzvo of importance, except perhaps the anti zionists who wanted to erect it as a straw man they could later pull down.
You can make A’Z out of anything, or anyone, too.
yichusdikParticipantZushy. We don’t have stam nationalistic aspirations out of some 19th century political zeitgeist. If that were the (only) motivation, R’ Avigdor Miller’s assertion would indeed apply.
We have, and have always had, national RESPONSIBILITIES. For valid reasons over a very long time, these were downplayed or ignored. Now that we have the opportunity to perform them again, turning away from them is a choice, a chiddush, essentially cutting off part of what HKBH made us when he took us out of Mitzrayim. It is little less than a new religion.
July 26, 2013 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm in reply to: Why are there religious Jews who are pro-gay marriage? #968433yichusdikParticipant@ Canadian Mountie – Nothing hypocritical. I believe that as long as the law distinguishes cohabitation as regards privileges and responsibilities, whether it is called marriage or not, couples have a responsibility to register that relationship. They have a responsibility to NOT take advantage of “entitlements” that are there for people who are not in formalized cohabitation. It still has no impact on the definition of halachic marriage, which is all I care about defining.
And anybody supporting dishonesty because it is easy to get away with it doesn’t understand the role of a Jew in the world.
July 26, 2013 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm in reply to: Why are there religious Jews who are pro-gay marriage? #968409yichusdikParticipantHere’s what I don’t understand. Someone so insistent (rightly so) on defining their own religious prerogatives and safeguarding their religious practice from the interference of the state having an opinion AT ALL on the state’s definition of marriage.
I stand to be corrected, but Torah doesn’t recognize ANY relationship outside of the halachic union of a Jewish man and a Jewish woman as Nisuin.
That’s the definition of marriage for a Torah Jew. Period. Anything else, anyONE else is like marrying a doorstop to a cuckoo clock. It has no halachic meaning AT ALL. And once you get out of a halachic discussion, we’re just talking about your personal opinions.
If you want the state to start getting involved in Torah definitions of marriage, interfering in how we define and practice marriage, the ONLY definition of marriage that matters, the best way to do it is to invite the government, the ACLU, the Gay rights movement into your living room for a discussion YOU started.
I want the government to have nothing to do with the Jewish definition of marriage. So when they start legalizing unions that are contrary to Torah, I add that to the other things they permit that are contrary to Torah, and I say – boruch hashem that I live in a country where I have religious freedom and can define my own religious practice for myself.
All that being said, I’m not pro gay marriage, because the only union I consider to be a marriage is a halachic Jewish one, and the government isn’t demanding that religious denominations MUST sanction their government defined unions. These people were cohabiting before the government’s position changed, and they will be doing so afterwards.
yichusdikParticipantHakatan, repeating a chiddush like your interpretation of Judaism doesn’t make it any more complete or authentic. As long as it ignores national responsibility it is the new, it is the branch in the road, not the other way around.
I’m not promoting any theology. I leave that to you and your fellow travellers. Do what you want. It may indeed be most appropriate for you. Just don’t fool yourself or try to fool others into thinking it is a Judaism that fulfills all the responsibilities HKBH expected a Jew to fulfill.
yichusdikParticipantWell, Derech Erets, in the 13 minutes you have been a member here, I see you have got to the nuts and bolts of what it means to write in the CR. Insult, denigrate, obfuscate.
My point was that the removal of national responsibility from what it means to be a Jew is the chiddush, and it doesn’t reflect maamad har sinai. Let me ask you something – When bnei Yisroel were in the desert, after leaving Egypt, before maamad har sinai, clearly they were elevating from the depths of tumah, but our mesorah tells us they hadn’t reached the level they would at har sinai.
When they fought Amalek, did anyone say “I have my responsibility to HKBH figured out, and it doesn’t include fighting these guys in a common army”? NO. They all fought. This was even BEFORE getting the Torah, and they understood what Moshe, what HKBH expected of them.
After Har Sinai, the shvatim made their contributions to the armies, they marched and camped and governed as parts of a nation.
It is what you are advocating that is new. I don’t have to proselytize for something that is and has always been part and parcel of authentic Torah true Judaism.
yichusdikParticipantThis letter, and a post by a Mir student on another popular yeshivish website, have crystallized something I’ve been struggling to figure out for months, if not years. I think I finally get it.
Those who are advocating these views, those who are dictating these views, those who are supporting these views – You’ve done something that neither the advent of chasidus has done, nor the reform or conservatives or the progenitors of the Haskala.
You have redefined Judaism and Jewish observance to the point where you have produced a new religion.
What does that mean?
I don’t mean for a minute that you’ve abandoned the framework of mesorah.
I don’t mean you’ve abandoned shmiras hamitzvos.
I don’t mean that you have evil intent.
I don’t even mean that you are objectively wrong.
What I DO mean is that you or those whose guidance you follow have eviscerated national responsibility and national purpose from Judaism. You have removed it, for your communities, from what it means to be Jewish. And it is understandable, because expression of that national responsibility and purpose was limited almost to extinction for more than a thousand years.
Now that the opportunity to act like a nation has been given to us by HKBH, you turn away from it. You’ve redefined Judaism to “work” without it.
Many Torah observant Jews disagree with you. Many of them embrace the opportunity to practice a “whole” Judaism. They not only learn but also do that which builds and protects the physical national environment or infrastructure which nationhood within Torah Judaism demands.
Many of our brothers and sisters who are not (yet) Torah observant embrace the opportunity to begin to fulfill the responsibilities incumbent on “Am” Yisrael. They may be inspired to national responsibilities, but little in the demeanor and public discourse of those who advocate for a Judaism without national responsibilites encourages them to embrace the individual and congregational responsibilities which have come to solely define your new Judaism.
I think that there is an authenticity to a Judaism inclusive of national responsibility that you are not seeing or understanding. You think its new, when it seems to me it is ancient.
And with the clarity I think I now have, I wonder – what of those many of us who have a foot planted firmly in both camps? Are you going to make us choose your religion over theirs? Will they make us choose?
yichusdikParticipantPretty clear that British and other European royalty is descended from the Angevins. Less clear their descent from Guillaume de Gellone, but probable.
On the other side, ancestries of the rashei galuta are also well known.
So the challenging part is the connection between the resh galuta natronai and the house of Machir/Gellone. There is circumstantial and some documentary evidence, as I described above, but it isn’t 100%.
On that note, neither is our tradition of Rashi’s family being descended from Dovid Hamelech. Even accepting the line to R’ Yochanan Hasandlar, the 30 generations from Hillel Hazaken to Shefatyah (I think) are undocumented. We have our mesorah, but as far as documentation goes, no.
yichusdikParticipantTo answer the genealogy question – There is considerable evidence that there was a Jewish principality in 9th century Languedoc centered on Narbonne. Contemporary chroniclers have written about it and our own sources, like Binyomin of Tudela writing a few hundred years later describes Narbonne as where the “zera hamalchus” resides when he meets the community’s leaders.
The family of the leaders of this principality, descended from someone named Machir of Narbonne, might coincide with a branch of the family of the Resh Galuta in Bavel being exiled in favour of another branch (see Otzar Hagedolim on the R’G Natronai II) and traveling from Bavel to this part of the Jewish world, as is described in some sources (For this you will have to read the very hard to find “A Jewish Principality in Feudal France” by Columbia U professor Arthur Zuckerman).
Eventually some of the descendants of these leaders assimilated, particularly the descendants of Guillaume De Gellone, of the family of Machir, though he himself apparently did not. These descendants married into several royal families of Europe, including the Boullion family who became “Kings of Jerusalem” during the Masaei Hatzlav, who eventually became the house of Anjou (Think Richard I), and whose descendants are all over Europe today including the British royal family.
From our Jewish perspective, there may be some further support for some of this narrative, including more snippets and fragments from Jewish travelers and from Rabbinic genealogies, and the family of Rav Shmuel Ben Natronai, the Rishon from whom the Margoliyos family ultimately descended, also came from this area of Languedoc, and the name Natronai is clearly from Bavel and exceedingly rare among Ashkenazi Jews. (I have only found it twice among Rishonim, and this is one of them)
yichusdikParticipantSqueak, we don’t have to return, the Queen is still our Head of State.
Apparently I’ve just heard that our Head of State has a new great grandchild.
He won’t be very interested in American beer either, when he’s old enough to drink.
yichusdikParticipantstefin – oh, and one more thing we don’t want: Inadequate American spelling.
:))
yichusdikParticipantNewsflash: Canadians are happy with the status quo of good friends with a distinct identity. And we have no interest in your lacklustre, flavourless beer.
Utah – “bad enough they are next to us?” – Hey, OK. take all the millions of jobs you’d lose without your biggest (by far) trading partner and go jump in the (Great Salt) Lake.
Charlie – appreciate the appreciation, but where I and 2/3 of Canada’s Jews live in Ontario, there is NO public funding of our schools, and in fact the current government has reached into our pockets and stolen, 10 months after it was budgeted by the previous government, thousands of dollars in tax credits for every Jewish family sending kids to Jewish schools.
One thing you could all appreciate is the strong support of Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Canada’s Conservative government for the Jewish community, the Jewish people around the world, and the State of Israel.
yichusdikParticipantPopa, by our traditional definitions of apikorsus, one has to agree with your observation about this individual. And coming from someone who is guiding others in a religious leadership position, it is even more of a violation of our mesora.
I do have a question, though.
In our day and age, it is simple enough for any individual, Rabbi or not, to simply disengage emunah in anything, altogether. In fact, I would argue, in most western cultures its easier to be an atheist than it is to hold any belief.
In this respect, our reality is wholly and completely different, than, say, the Rambam’s, where perhaps the only thing more dangerous than being a Jew was being a total non believer.
Setting aside this rabbi’s position of responsibility for a moment, must we as frum Jews look exactly the same way at someone who says – its all a fairy tale – as at someone who says – its written in more than one voice, a singular revelation collected over a period of time?
I don’t know the answer, I’m not presupposing it, but that nasty bugaboo of critical thinking that we can’t really avoid rears its head again, and if we say, yes, its exactly the same apikorsus, then it is perhaps incumbent upon us to reasonably explain in a Torah context the elements of the text that are giving him and those who follow the documentary hypothesis their ammunition.
yichusdikParticipantYes – my agenda is that young Jews should not be pawns for anyone, and that they should have all the information they need to make informed decisions.
Their parents, their rebbes, their chevre should not keep them so cloistered that when they make the admirable decision to go into the IDF, they are unaware of their rights and the army’s responsibilities.
When I was much younger, I seriously considered aliyah and service as a chayal boded. This was before the internet. I sought and found the information and resources I needed to know what benefits I was eligible for, what my responsibilities were, down to the extra 25 shekel a month for overseas phone calls. And I didn’t actually do it, and at the time I was not in EY. These boys live there, made the good decision to go, and had access to information in a manner more instant than I could have imagined at their age.
These young men were doubly vicitimized. They were victimized by the either wicked or idiotic barber and the barber’s CO, and they were victimized by too many people they depended on for guidance who encouraged ignorance of too many practical things.
yichusdikParticipantIf you read the story, you would have seen that IDF regulations of course permit peyos and they were not compelled by policy to have them cut, but, if the report is accurate, by one rosho who should be kicked out of the army.
As I wrote in the comments below the story, it is a terrible irony that if these recruits had any familiarity with tzahal and bakum, like those, for example, learning in hesder yeshivos do, they would have been familiar enough to know its NOT IDF policy. What a ashame they didn’t have the kind of guidance that would have made such knowledge obvious, as it is to the rest of the religious Jews in the IDF.
yichusdikParticipantThose who have been disputing with me on this issue, please read what R’ Gershon Edelstein from Ponevich had to say about the assaults, and more specifically, what he expects from the manhigim of the particular community in question, and his puzzlement about their silence. Can’t post links here, but you can find it online.
yichusdikParticipantWIY, I hope I wouldn’t have the gaiva to think I was infallible. And I believe that most manhigim wouldn’t be baalei gaaiva either.
And BTW, any of the manhigim who see their role as a “business” as you put it, are likely those who may have a problem.
Health, does it bother you so much that DY and I can vehemently disagree but still be menschlech to each other?
yichusdikParticipantDY, you are right. I think there has been leadership that hasn’t served elements of the tzibur well, and I think that therefore there is a vacuum of real leadership in SOME quarters of the tzibur.
Yes, I was affected by the blackout. off and on for 48 hours. #firstworldproblems. I managed fine. Thanks for asking.
yichusdikParticipant…and now the RY of Porat Yosef calls the dati leumi tzibur amalek. very responsible leadership there. …and yet another incident of a chareidi chayal being set upon by ostensibly possibly allegedly potentially maybe chareid attackers, this time in beit yisrael. but hey, no leadership vaccum here, people, nothing to see. move along now.
yichusdikParticipanthead meet sand. sigh.
yichusdikParticipantDY, look at other sources. One I read by Times of Israel reporter Ilan Ben Zion on July 10, said he was beaten and had oil thrown at him as well as eggs, and Arutz Sheva reported that he was pelted with rocks as well. Others describe it as an assault without details, not a shouting match.
yichusdikParticipant…and at 6:30 pm Israel time today, there was a similar attack on a chareidi soldier walking alone on Shmuel Hanavi. buuuut…it’s all about me and my apparent prejudices. right.
yichusdikParticipantWell, thanks for the summary judgement on my life experience, DY.
Don’t know how stating things like
“Its no twisting of facts to say that when there is a collective will to address a communal affront like pritzus, there is a collective way to boot the offender out of the community.
No such collective will or collective way exists with violence like this. The logical conclusion is that it isn’t enough of an affront to the community to motivate its manhigim.
And even you can’t argue that Rabbis in the schuna don’t have a hashpo’oh on the collective will.”
is making things up. That’s not fiction, its logic.
yichusdikParticipantYour prerogative, dy. You have no idea what I’ve seen or experienced, or what my assumptions are based on.
Its no twisting of facts to say that when there is a collective will to address a communal affront like pritzus, there is a collective way to boot the offender out of the community.
No such collective will or collective way exists with violence like this. The logical conclusion is that it isn’t enough of an affront to the community to motivate its manhigim.
And even you can’t argue that Rabbis in the schuna don’t have a hashpo’oh on the collective will.
yichusdikParticipantSorry you feel that way, DY. not stoking, not hating, just someone who is very disappointed in what he has been seeing going on around him. So much has changed since I was a kid in this oilem, and not much of it for the good. And by the way – I’m not now singing the praises of the dati leumi tzibur, or the MO tzibur, or anyone else. It isn’t about who is better than the other for me. Its about how each of these constituencies deals with change, deals with challenge, deals with wrongdoing. Nobody comes out smelling like a rose.
yichusdikParticipantWIY – but the Rabonim in that particular community are quick enough to act against other issues in their midst. Why is it ok to act against pritzus but not against violence?
AND BTW, one of the Rabbis in the shchuna came out publicly in favor of the violence. YWN reported it yesterday.
yichusdikParticipantSure, Health. You aren’t even reading your own posts. Before, you wrote about me:
“Your hypocrisy and hatred to Charedim is astounding!”
I then pointed out your straw man, then you wrote:
“My point wasn’t that you were attacking e/o who is Charedi.”
Make up your mind.
yichusdikParticipantHealth, I’ve got to call you on your utter irresponsibility. I’ve just reread everything I posted in this thread. The only time I used the word “chareidi” was to describe the VICTIM, and twice to say I’m not talking about the whole chareidi community. You have access to the same posts. you read them. You chose to make an accusation that is unfounded, unwarranted, and unsupported by my words.
You can do better than that. Frankly straw men are the most pathetic way to win an argument…against yourself. Not menschlech.
DY, maybe I don’t know the dynamics. I’m speculating. But I’m not blind, b’h. Maybe there’s something heilige and ehrliche about burning trash bins, flinging dirty diapers, cursing, calling people nazis, assaulting people. Someone is influencing these perpetrators. Its not the Shabak. Its not the hesderniks. Its not the Russian mafia. And the community/its leaders supposedly find themselves helpless when in other circumstances they find the capacity to act. I’m not buying.
yichusdikParticipantDY, if you haven’t figured out by now, I most often write about concepts and movements, about zeitgeist and weltanschauung, not about this or that individual’s responsibility for act a or challenge b. In this case I am drawing attention to the inherent contradiction of that community’s action or inaction.
Perhaps the real problem is that no one takes responsibility. The average Joes expect the Rabbis to exert some control as they do over most everything else in the community, but they dont. The Rabbis, I am told by several posters here, are too scared to do anything. (which I find hard to believe, but…) The perpetrators feel the overwhelming sentiment in their community if not outright guidance is compelling them to act in this way, so they do.
In any case it is a truly broken dynamic.
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