Mentsch – I’m not trying to convince you to hold my opinion. I’m also on the fence about it myself, as I said “might”.

I’m not defending orgs like you mentioned. The ones I worked on had haskamos and participation from some local Rabonim, were indeed elaborate and costly but not any more so than a top of the line fundraising dinner that is held in a banquet hall or shul hall like so many are, and most importantly I saw (and was responsible for budgeting) how the money raised was used and how it impacted Jewish life and Torah learning for individuals whose lives were changed.

I’ve never worked for an organization that outsourced fundraising to commissioned promoters.

As an aside, as to “gluttonous” fundraisers, Where I lived when working on these events, there is no charitable receipt for the portion of the event that constitutes a “value advantage” for the participant. This means that an event that charges $200 but costs $120 per person for food, drink, golf, fishing boat, etc. will generate an $80 charitable receipt.

Where I work and raise funds now, there is a significant proportion of the major givers who expect a certain level of recognition and stewardship that includes high end events once or twice a year. (And by high end I mean expensive but not ridiculous) The organization I work for is not in a position to jeopardize these gifts, but on the other hand we don’t use general funds to pay for them either. Either there is separate corporate sponsorship of the event, or the participants pay a couvert for the “value advantage” described above.

This seems to me to be appropriate.

Too much to say, and afraid I will make the kind of generalizations that I will regret. Nevertheless

1. Don’t confuse the actions and attitudes of an individual or even many individuals with the feelings or actions of all. HKBH was prepared to save Sdom for even a tiny minority of righteous people, if they could be found. L’havdil, there are (I think and hope) only a minority in the Chareidi community who would justify this action.

2. That said, if even one child is treated this way it is a wrong that must be fixed. If the schools involved receive state funds, that should be leverage enough to encourage these heartless individuals to relent.

3. Yekke2, if, as you say, they look down on you, then they have no need to speak to you in a superior fashion. The look says all that is needed.

4. I am an individual with some learning, a family and lineage to be proud of, a job where I get to work for the benefit of Am Yisroel every day, and I DON’T EVEN HOLD A CANDLE TO THE UNLEARNED MILDLY OBSERVANT MENIAL WORKER WHO DOES CHESED AND GIVES TZEDOKOH IN THE MOST BASIC WAYS WITH LOVE EVERY DAY, WEEK, OR MONTH. I am humbled by the humility and gentle nature of these many tzadikim and tzidkaniyos who rarely hear a shiur or learn bechavrusah because they are working three jobs to sustain their family, but they still have time and a few dollars to bring groceries and some companionship to the lonely, immobile widow in the apartment above theirs.

That’s who I look up to.

5. Yekke2, you think it is not unfair to deny these kids a place in these schools. I think it IS unfair, but not as much to the excluded kids but rather to the rest of the talmidim in the school who will never benefit from their friendship, never have the opportunity to hear a Torah insight from them, never have the hashpooh they could bring to other talmidim to do chesed, to learn more, to be responsible participants in their community and society. The Principal is not a Novi, and cant foresee the greatness he might be excluding.

6. Lilmod, you say “People do it because they feel it is important and they are willing to sacrifice for Am Yisrael.” Yes, you may be right. And their sacrifice is indeed immense. Why, though, does doing it because “they feel” it is right become a standard for others?

7. All of these points didn’t even address the issue with Sefardi children. All I will say is that those children deserve to be in a school whose hanhala is on a higher madrega than this one.

Happy Girl, Rav Noach Weinberg Zt’l told me many years ago that in considering both growth from where you are at and tshuva from where you have come to, every single mitzvah performed, has immense value, and no one should be discouraged by not taking on “everything at once”. The key is to keep going, but to do so realizing the importance of each mitzvah, even something as simple as putting up a mezuzah, or something more complex.

There’s also a thought in a midrash that may have been the earliest midrash I ever learned, maybe at the age of 4 or 5, which indicates (as an inspiration if not in actuality) that if one thinks about transgressing but doesn’t, no onesh applies. But if one intends to do a mitzvah but doesn’t, he receives schar as if he did it.

Speaking of Bedouins, our forefather Avrohom Yitzchok and Yaakov, being shepherds in Eretz Yisroel, its hills and deserts, would have likely, almost certainly, worn clothing not dissimilar to a modern Bedouin. Not a shtreimel, bekeshe, hat, double layered yarmulke, gartel or black suit to be seen. Which, of course, begs the question. Did our forefathers daven dressed as prescribed here, by Rav Kanievsky, or anyone else? Did it impact on their tefilos? What about (hypothetical) Eliezer from Shilo who herded Goats during the time of Shmuel Hanovi and brought korbanos to the Mishkan when appropriate. A gartel? A Borsalino?

Was his offering Pigul without it?

Let me be clear. If an individual or the Posek he follows insists it is necessary FOR HIM, boruch Hashem. Wear a hat. Do it with the knowledge that you are upholding Halocho in the manner you and your Rov feel is best.

But unless you want to condemn those who you have no right condemning for doing it differently, Please be less insistent about the practice of others when they are davening and talking to their God.

As I’ve said earlier, both choices are awful. That said, the amount of ignorance of the facts about both and the assumption that rabidly left or right wing articles and videos are factual is simply staggering. Stop yelling at each other, try to find objective sources, or at least ones that don’t offer confirmation bias for your existing beliefs, and draw conclusions from that. And for goodness sake, remember that you’ll need to be civil to each other when the dust settles and both of these candidates are gone.

Sparkly, that’s the point. If you are going to College, you are an adult. Do whatever you want. You have bechiroh chofshis. Make good choices about where you go and who you associate with. But take personal responsibility for your choices.

It’s your choice to live a positive Torah influenced life, or not.

If you have had a Torah education, in school or at home; if you’ve had a Torah hashpo’oh, at school, shul or at home; if you have yiras shomayim and kovod for your fellow man and woman; if you have a modicum of derech eretz, and a capacity for critical thinking, you are well equipped and should be confident of maintaining your Torah standards (and influencing others) in most environments.

One last observation. You have used the phrase “I heard” this and “I heard” that. You will “hear” many opinions, many hashkafos, and many remarks that may have made sense in the context of a shiur or shmuess, but are otherwise out of context. Again, take responsibility. If you “hear” a Torah perspective, and you want to understand how it can influence your world view, do some research. learn a little, look up sources and come to your own conclusions.

Yes, but what I said was that the birth rate was declining, which you substantiated with your post. Still not getting your point of contention.

Joseph, I don’t know what your point is. Look at what you quoted from me –

“The Chareidi birthrate is dropping, even relative to the secular, which is growing.”

Both of the contentions in that sentence are substantiated in the article that you quoted.

“The birthrate among traditional Jews has increased marginally over the past decade, rising from 2.2 in 2005 to 2.6 in 2014.

The study I referenced in an earlier thread, from the ICBS in 2015, didn’t distinguish between secular and traditional Jews. It indicated a rising birthrate among the non-religious-identifying that had caught up with the Arab birthrate.

So, if I erred in saying secular instead of non-chareidi or non religious, point to you. Otherwise this substantiates my point completely. Thank you.

Head, meet sand.

As I said, I’m tired. I’m not trying to change your mind, Joseph. Be who you are, I’m sure you’ll succeed in convincing many Jews to do as you do and be as you are with your judging favourably, your open tent flaps like avrohom avinu and your anivus like Moshe Rabeinu. Hatzlocho with that.

Sparkly, can I ask what region of the country you live in? I have a suggestion for you depending on where.

Truth, JONAH was convicted of consumer fraud in New Jersey last year and shut down. I don’t think they are still in operation. I also believe that their 501 c 3 status has been revoked. So the IRS and the NJ superior court found their claims…unconvincing.

I recall the Executive Director of JONAH in 2009 coming and making a presentation at the kiruv organization I was working for at the time. I was not front-line working with youth as my colleagues were. Some had smicha. All were well educated. My colleagues were by and large closer to a chareidi or RWMO outlook than I and I can also recall quite clearly his inability to answer their straightforward questions and my colleagues being unimpressed with the theory and the practice as described after spending hours with him.

As well, the RCA in 2012 issued a statement disavowing their previous lukewarm recommendation of JONAH and repudiating its methodology.

The testimony about their methods revealed at the trial are shocking for any Torah Jew, to say the least. I won’t post here but you can find it yourself.

So….you might want to hold off on recommending JONAH

I made clear that I object to a hedonistic display and unclothed people parading through the streets no matter what their inclination. That`s what Pride Parades looked like where I grew up, and it has actually toned down over the years but it is still a problem. I have no problem with a self identified group exercising their right to demonstrate against discrimination, violence, and prejudice, and the LGBTQ community is affected by all three of those. I would expect them and anyone else to defend your right to demonstrate against the very same things targeting you.

In my first post on this thread, I asked the OP about his arrogation of authority to all Jews. i.e. We as Jews Must Condemn.

It doesnt bother me that the OP is opposed to it. Its his presumption in speaking for everybody, and his inconsistency in doing so that I called out.

Im not calling out to all Jews to condemn anything, Im just wondering at the OPs and others heres preparedness to rail against one but not the other.

And for the record, I would of course be opposed to such a parade, but I would not feel compelled to arrogate the responsibility to tell every single Jew that we must condemn it. We would be better off ignoring it, if it (as a parade) didn`t break any laws in our non-halachic society.

Joseph, the argument could be made that those positions are not a move to the left, but rather a move to a more libertarian understanding of the role of government in citizen’s lives. Libertarian does not mean liberal, but it does mean that the state doesn’t regulate relationships or identity or religion or personal conscience. It stays out of citizens personal lives as much as possible.

That is not a left wing perspective. In fact, most of the most radical right wing elements of the US have a strong libertarian bent.

KJ, we Jews pray that you come back to the faith and nation of your ancestors, and we hope to welcome you into the fold of Jews who follow the Torah God gave us, inhabit and support the land God gave us, and live in brotherhood with the people God made us.

As it stands and from your words you seem to have left.

I’d love to welcome you back.

Actually, Softwords, I can understand that you have little knowledge or experience with these scholars, but Steven Cohen consulted extensively for the Orthodox Union in analyzing the Pew Report a couple of years ago. He is highly respected throughout the Jewish world, and I have personally participated in his briefings on the Pew Report (for the OU, without a Reform agenda; the opposite, he had some very complimentary and useful things to convey about the Orthodox world and what the Pew report revealed about it). You could pick up the phone and ask Rabbi Weil or Rabbi Weinrib about him. But, alas, you are content to be motzi shem ra about him because you saw the words “Hebrew Union”.

Secondly, surveys are always, always and only contingent on what you ask, and who you ask. Are you surprised that an organization like Footsteps which serves the population being surveyed would not have an interest in finding out real data about them? DO you think they want to waste their time and limited resources finding results that are inaccurate because of an assumed agenda, rather than accurate information that will help them accomplish what they set out to do? That’s a pretty twisted world view.

Jewishfeminist 02

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+1!

“stand and applauds”

Yeah, I posted real stats and included citations from ICBS, the 2013 Pew Report, and another peer reviewed study, and came to a similar conclusion to Avi K, but since it doesn’t fit in with the original hypothesis of the original poster, there’s no engagement on it. Mai Nafka Mina?

The pattern, or dugma, can be anything, really. Some have a repeating pattern, like the walls of Yerushalayim, for example. Others have the symbols of various brigades in the IDF. many are simply geometric, and some (like most of mine) are one colour with no pattern. They can also be made with a person’s name on them. the dugma is completely variable.

1) The high birth rate of religious families

In general Israel has the highest birthrate among developed countries – yes, the ultra Orthodox element is a part of it, but Secular Israelis have a higher than average birthrate too. A 2013 study by Yaakov Feitelson actually indicated that Ultra Orthodox Birthrates are falling and have been doing so for a decade as of 2013, though still significantly higher than the growing non chareidi birthrate which continues to climb and is just about as high now as the declining Arab birthrate in Israel. So religious, yes. Secular too, and Chareidi, not as much or as fast as you might think.

A few issues of concern, though. The ICBS indicates that the proportion of the population over 65 will rise from 10% now to 17% by 2059. How will a growing chareidi population with a significant proportion who do not work and thus pay proportionate income tax, sustain this almost doubled proportion of senior citizens, when it is challenging to do so under present circumstances?

2) The “transfer” of secular to religious Jews –

The vast majority of the thousands of annual yordim are secular

and the vast majority of olim are religious.

Not so fast, though. 48% of those who left post 1990 have been people who made aliyah. Even factoring in people from the FSU, if as you say there are large numbers of frum immigrants, the numbers who went back are significant too, at least statistically. if you want to argue anecdotally, I can’t disagree, but your argument can’t be backed up, either.

Indeed, at least a plurality if not a majority of those immigrating – from the West – are religious, but a very large proportion of these are Religious Zionist and Modern Orthodox, and a smaller proportion are Chareidi. Not only that, but the last two years recorded, 2014 and 2015, have seen 30% to 40% of total immigration coming from Ukraine and the FSU, and the proportion of Frum from there is close to nil.

More importantly, put in a bigger picture, the numbers are less significant. in fact, total population growth has been in decline (though it is still stronger than any other developed country) for decades, with the exception of Soviet Jewish immigration in the 90’s)

1960 2,150,400 +57.0%

1970 3,022,100 +40.5%

1980 3,921,700 +29.8%

1990 4,821,700 +22.9%

2000 6,369,300 +32.1%

2010 7,695,100 +20.8%

2015 8,463,500 +10.0%

(all from Israel Central Bureau of Statistics)

3) The Baalei Tshuva movement- tens of thousands become frum every year

Though it doesn’t reflect the totality of the situation in Israel, the Pew report released in late 2013 indicated that part of the reason the Orthodox proportion of the population stayed static at 10% was the fact that while 150,000 Jews had become baalei teshuva within the time period studied, 330,000 raised Orthodox had left. Even if this is only partially reflective of the Israeli reality, the tens of thousands who come back are mostly balanced if not overbalanced by those who leave.

This is a statistic we have to pay attention to and understand if we are going to retain our children as well as bringing back those who were never frum.

4) The “slow death” of liberalism- Israelis are getting tired of making concessions to the arabs and are becoming increasingly right-wing which in turn makes them less secular

In fact the growth of the centre right, like Yesh Atid and Kulanu, as well as the continuing popularity of secular right wing parties like Yisrael Beiteinu and Likud, were reflected in the recent election. The chareidi parties were static, as was Shas, and Habayit Hayehudi got less than expected. It is far more surprising to listen to the pronouncements of Machane Hatzioni, so when Bougie Herzog says there is no current peace partner, and negotiates entry into Bibi’s coalition, it indicates that Israeli society as a whole, secular and religious, has become more right wing, with no reference to religion but much to security.

So, Rabbi of Crawley, I think the power of the religious is rising, but incrementally so. It may have more to do with the Religious Zionists than anyone else, who now make up a plurality of candidates in officer training in the IDF, who are building companies and employing more Israelis, who have a high birthrate and who engage with their secular brothers and ssiters every day. They have their problems too. So, frankly, does every element of society. (and not just in Israel)

After the primary and overwhelming consideration of ratzon hashem and emunah, Its what all Israelis and all Jews can do together that is going to keep us strong.

DY, it is tendentious to separate data from analysis as if there is no relationship. Of course I am familiar with Twain’s “Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics” quote. Here he starts with the hypothesis that surveys are useless tools of the Liberal literati, and goes from there.

Criticizing (even irrelevantly and incorrectly, as he does) shabbos phone calls, is about data collection, not analysis.

In criticizing the questions that Federations supposedly tailor to their supposed anti-frum needs, he is talking about methodology, not analysis.

And the ironic part of all of this is that the survey results, which I have read, aren’t particularly harsh, and display a very wide range of rationales and information about the OTD phenomenon. I don’t know why he’s defensive about it in the first place.

SiDi, I’m talking about using it as a steak (as in “minute steak”) in which caseit is grilled or broiled. music may have been talking about stewing it or cooking it in a sauce. I still think it would be dry, because how you cook it doesn’t change it being lean and thin. It might be less tough if not grilled or broiled.

A few more things to know about minute steaks. They are usually very lean and therefore can be tough and dry, especially if overcooked. They are not on the bone, which also means they cook quickly. marinating can help. They are usually also cut quite thin, which also makes them cook very quickly. They are not particularly big, and almost always have a ridge of inedible cartilage that goes right through the length of the steak (which is usually oval).

It is rare indeed that I agree with DY, and even rarer that I ageee with Joseph. But I think it is inappropriate for the Chassan and Kallah to learn this material together.

Before I married (the first time) we learned with a husband and wife, separately.

I also agree with those who say there should be an opportunity to learn about household management, financial responsibility, etc, for those who haven’t lived on their own; but not from those who teach about intimacy. There are most likely better suited and experienced people to discuss that.

Finally, bentzion, I think it would be in both the chassan and the kallah’s interest to find an advisor on how to think and speak and understand the evolving needs of their soon to be partner in life. Assumptions made in the early stages of a marriage can have consequences, and not understanding or discussing them can exacerbate matters. I can benefit from earlier experience now that I am a chassan again. Not everyone needs that kind of experience. Good advice would be preferable.

An onov would judge the child and the parents by their middos and by the home they keep, and hope to find kind, gentle, honest and trustworthy people for their kids to interact with.

Any parent has the right and responsibility to choose who their children interact with, at least at young ages. It’s the criteria you use that will illustrate YOUR character, the assumptions you make about others that will reveal your gaivah or anivus, the decisions you make that will impact your kids capacity to practice ahavas chinom.

Choose wisely. It’s not just your life and prejudices you are playing with. It’ll affect your children’s capacity to learn how to judge for themselves, which they will eventually need to do.