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The OP writes:
“Not long ago frum marriage partners put their best efforts into making a marriage work even they weren’t initially the most ideal match. In today’s disposable generation, people have less motivation to put in the work to stabilize & create marital harmony. Still, divorce came with a stigma & remarrying with someone of another failed marriage can be difficult. ”
Now, if the OP is speaking from personal experience, I can’t argue. But if the OP is making assumptions, He’s clearly not following the opinion expressed by Hillel Hazokein in pirkei avos (2:4).
There have been immature people in every generation. There have been those for whom commitment is meaningless in every generation. There have been people who lack seichel in every generation. Many of these brought these character weaknesses into their marriages, and what is worse is that they failed to take personal responsibility.
And there have been people of faith, commitment, and maturity who worked at their marriage and failed to sustain it – in every generation. Boruch hashem that they encounter others with more understanding and discernment than the OP who help them learn from their challenges and build a successful life with a new partner, of whatever age and life experience. The zivug and the happiness they build is what is important in strengthening their commitment to HKBH and to strengthening their community. Not some speculative calculus about their motivations.
“People have less motivation”?
Spoken like someone who is well intentioned, but better at speculation than certainty.
Mazal Tov!
This one isn’t so straightforward. Not a liberal or conservative thing, either.
First, though, if one calls the police in the Medina Shel Chesed with a bill of rights and the rule of law, is it still mesira? Not so straightforward.
Second, on the other side. Yelling and screaming doesn’t necessarily constitute “raglayim ledavar”, so either waiting until you have a clearer picture or asking a competent, aware, and unblinkered halachic authority for advice could be a good idea. That is, unless you hear someone say “I’m going to kill you” or something like that. Then asking your Rov or waiting for more evidence is indeed standing on the blood of your neighbor.
Third. Speaking to a Rov doesn’t necessarily mean you are asking a shailah which you are then obliged to adhere to. You can ask for advice as to what should inform your own decision making from a halachic POV, you can ask quite a bit that isn’t “tell me what to do, please”.
My personal opinion, all of this being said, is to be near certain you have cause for alarm before calling the police. Use your head. Ask a Rov for guidance or advice if you must, but YOU are hearing or seeing this, not someone on the other end of the phone. It is unfair to that Rov to expect him to make the best informed decision about the situation based on secondhand “evidence”. And finally, if you are convinced that someone is being endangered, don’t call hatzolah. Call the police. When HKBH calls you to account for it there might well be a saved life on your account to balance any possible halachic breach.
Being able to conceive and bear a child is a blessing. And it’s never a sure thing until the baby is born healthy, so it should never be taken for granted. The tzaar of someone who wants kids but cant bear them is overwhelming.
BUT
I must take issue with those who consider it an “affront to Hashem” if a woman does not want to bear children. Simply put, you have no idea why such a feeling is expressed. The individual may have suffered a trauma, or abuse, or neglect as a child or young adult that makes the thought of raising a child into a world where she has suffered so much an abhorrent thought. The individual may simply be terrified at the responsibility.
Pirkei Avos says in the second perek not to judge another until you have been in their place. Hillel Hazokein said it! I can not see how anyone can bring themselves to argue with this. Not only becasue it is the wisdom of Hillel Hazokein, but also because of the obvious logic of it.
So, those of you who feel it is an affront, who are you or any of us to judge that? Have you walked in her shoes? Doesn’t HKBH rule with compassion and understanding?
So what would I say to her? I would say that I pray that HKBH brings her happiness and fulfillment in her life.
Many years ago, I had the privilege to have Rav Avishai David as my magid shiur, Rosh Yeshiva, and for about a year I was honoured to learn with him b’chavrusa. I recall many many distinctive discussions about his experiences with the Rov zt’l, and with his beloved teacher R Aharon Lichtenstein zt’l.
I would be interested to see the makor for the statement that “when it comes to hashkofoh we stay away from the Rambam”. I never got the impression from him that his experience learning from and with the Rov envisioned shying away from challenging hashkofic texts ESPECIALLY from the Rambam. That being said, I haven’t seen his sefer that was referenced, and he may have come to that conclusion.
I’d add one thought. Though it has – and has had since the time of the neviim and the anshei kneses hagedolah and earlier – vital importance and power, and for some it is one of the most important elements of their personal observance of mitzvos, Emunas Chachomim is not the end all and be all of Yiddishkeit. Emunoh in HKBH is.
Please consider giving the get and moving on. Marriage is a partnership. If one partner doesn’t want to be a partner anymore, you don’t have a marriage, you just have collective responsibilities.
One more thing. You can’t change her (and she can’t change you, though she doesn’t seem to want to. She just wants to leave) Only she can, and she’s expressed pretty clearly she isn’t interested in changing her mind or stance. So you are banging your head against a wall again and expecting a different result. That doesn’t seem to be rational.
Whether you convince her (which I doubt she wants) to go to therapy together or not, I agree with zaltzvasser that therapy is a good idea for you. And I would say that considering her religious observance a religious therapist would be good for you two if you go together, I think you can find a good therapist for yourself beyond that milieu. Hatzlacha!
I’m with Joseph, mostly, on this one. While we can clearly see that John Paul II took the changes of John XXIII very seriously about not prioritizing proselytizing Jews any more and of describing us as “Elder Brothers” . That doesn’t go very far at all in mitigating 1700 years of persecution and murder, of laying the “legal” framework the Nazis copied in their anti Jewish laws, and of normalizing Jew hatred for century after century in Europe. The Catholic Church has a lot more to do before its change of tune can be “appreciated”.
I have read and heard that the present pope is a good, humble man. Maybe so. but unduly honoring him as pope, rather than as a good and humble man, honours the Catholic Church, which, as Joseph wrote, has been murdering us for millennia.
The capacity to defend oneself and one’s community with the intervention of HKBH is worth celebrating, when such capacity has been absent for millenia. The celebration of the end of the conflict resonates too, because more importantly than victory, it can be a celebration of the beginning of some semblance of peace, or at least the temporary absence of violence.
Finally, more than one gadol, more than one Rav, more than one educated Jew, more than one simple maamin have looked at the events of the past 100 years and seen the indications of the Ikvesa Demeshicha. And the concepts of overcoming shibud malchuyos along with the clearest of kibutz goluyos are so clear that an Iver could see them.
Now, the period before zman hamoshiach (and which one are you talking about, Ezer, ben yosef or ben dovid?) isn’t exactly clearly defined in our tradition. One thing that seems clear though, is that it is a time of tumult, confusion, and conflict.
I believe that we are in the time of ikvesa demeshicha. It would be simplistic and perhaps foolish to draw a perfectly straight line from the founding of a secular state to the onset of a messianic age. That is precisely the context – tumult, confusion, conflict – out of which the geulah will come.
However you see the medinah, the fact of its existence and the context within which it was created indicates to me, at least, that we are approaching the geulah, even if its two steps forward, one step back.
And, to me, that is worth celebrating. If for you, it’s worth saying kinos over, at least you are doing so because the ultimate geulah matters to you.
Moderator, I don’t question your prerogative about not posting anything. It’s totally your call. Your response to my query, which I appreciate getting, however, should be accurate.
I didn’t make any comment, hateful, disgusting, or otherwise, about an adam gadol in that post at all. I suggested a look at a well sourced scholarly work which questioned the accepted narrative, and which backed up their investigation with facts. And I suggested it could be useful to consider more facts than have been presented in this thread. It is your prerogative to consider elements of that work hateful and disgusting. Elements of this thread are equally or perhaps more hateful, and certainly more directly so than was my blocked post. I wonder at their continued presence.
By the way, while there is criticism in the work I referenced, there is also praise and acknowledgement that at least part of the accepted narrative is accurate.
In any case, I wish you a good shabbos, and a good shabbos to all here, including those I disagree with.
I get a post not being accepted and not posted. I don’t get it going up and then coming down.
I don’t get it going up in the first place. Probably, whoever approved it did not understand the reference, and therefore did not realize that it was a disgusting, hateful comment about an Adam Gadol.
I’ll only say further that there are scholarly works which dispute the perspective of the OP, with primary sources and references. Apparently you’ll have to find them yourselves, because even referencing them without links is problematic. Oh, and there’s this. I hope the moderators are ok with the Novee Yoel.
וְהָיָה בַיּוֹם הַהוּא יִטְּפוּ הֶהָרִים עָסִיס, וְהַגְּבָעוֹת תֵּלַכְנָה חָלָב, וְכָל-אֲפִיקֵי יְהוּדָה, יֵלְכוּ מָיִם; וּמַעְיָן, מִבֵּית יְהוָה יֵצֵא, וְהִשְׁקָה, אֶת-נַחַל הַשִּׁטִּים
וִיהוּדָה, לְעוֹלָם תֵּשֵׁב; וִירוּשָׁלִַם, לְדוֹר וָדוֹרYoel, 4: 18, 20
Is it OK to agree to a shidduch with someone who rejects the words of the Novee Yirmiyahu, particularly perokim lamed and lamed alef? corollary of the question.
Ugh. The falsehood and hate fueling this OP has truly pained me. I’ll daven for the neshomah of the person who posted it. I fear he will need the tefilos.
I’d point out that though I disagree with Joseph’s perspective expressed here, I understand the perspective on doing the commemoration in Nisan, and see that it could be justified to criticize the timing of Yom Hashoah (though zahavasdad makes a cogent point), though I may not agree that it was done dafka l’hachis. I’m not be reactive simply to a differing perspective, just to the unfortunate sinah in the OP.
Let’s all daven for the elevation of the neshamoss of the kedoshim, every day, for the unity of am Yisroel, every day, and for the geulah to be completed, every day.
Yekke2, my personal understanding is that my philosophical approach and attitude towards Torah and Mitzvos is relevant to me and to the people who I interact with. They are less if at all relevant to Yossel in Monsey or Shaindel in Gateshead.
Here’s the controversial part. I think that many if not most of us here are products of a good or great Jewish education, built by the mesiras nefesh of our parents and grandparents, and by the incredible leaders of the sheairis hapleytah since 1950. I think that we are the products of their hashpo’oh, and of any other hashpo’os our parents saw fit to expose us to. I think that with those influences, with the guidance of a manhig or manhigim that the individual trusts, and the immersion of living in a Jewish environment, most of us are well equipped to make choices about how we express our Jewish ideals. They won’t all be the same. In fact, everyone’s expression of yiddishkeit will be at least a bit different, because personality and circumstances come into play as well.
Thus, within the parameters of Torah and Mitzvos, there is not one specific mindset. We are all ships in the same fleet, led by the ultimate admiral, going from the same port to the same destination. All the ships are different, some have more sails, some fewer, some are faster or slower, some bigger or smaller. But we have the same set of orders, and that includes how we deal with things that come upon us on the way. As long as we agree on the destination, and as long as we are working from the same set of orders, I don’t see the point in telling the other seafarers what their mindset should be.
Nechomah – Though I was involved as a teacher, volunteer, chavrusa and host for Aish for many years, I am not blessed to have come to it as a Baal Tshuva. Though each of us in our own way is or should be chozer bitshuva on an ongoing basis, I grew up and was educated in a frum environment and community.
Lilmod – You and I have different approaches to Kiruv, though there may be some intersectionality. One thing I have moved away from is absolute statements. I gave my opinion on what is needed to be successful and whole as someone involved in macro-kiruv. It is based on experience and on the wisdom of others whose whole lives are immersed in kiruv. But I don’t assume there is no path other than what I suggested.
You wrote – “Rebshidduch’s situation is a macro-kiruv situation and she should not be involved until she has some of the above qualifications. She should certainly wait until she has attended seminary for a MINIMUM of one year.”I broadly agree, but I don’t know about minimums and maximums. I do know she needs a mentor, and not an anonymous one in the coffee room like you or me.
You wrote “However, there is something important to point out. I attended an Aish HaTorah seminar at which the presenter made sure to deliniate the differences between Aish haTorah’s hashkafa and mainstream Yeshivish hashkafa. If you have been involved with Aish HaTorah, I am sure that you are aware of those differences.”
Having had the opportunity of learning and working throughout the broad spectrum of the observant world, from chareidi to the left fringes of orthodoxy, And working professionally in Jewish communities beyond the observant elements of it, I am more than aware of the differences, be they subtle or black and white, between the many beautiful elements that make up the whole. My experience and my friendship with dozens of people who are at once both Yeshivish and Aish-involved (or involved with other kiruv organizations that also have a different taam) tells me that the strategic differences between the yeshivish and Aish hashkafahs are very small, though the tactical approaches are often quite different
“If Rav Noach Weinberg zatsal was your Rav, then you can and probably should follow him. But please understand that most Frum Jews will and probably should choose to follow the mainstream Yeshivish hashkafa (if in fact there are differences).
Kiruv has been a part of my life for a long time. For part of that time I was involved through the Aish framework, and particularly as it related to how to teach and be mekarev, I learned and used R’ Noach’s mehalech and reached out to him for answers to questions as they came up. I wouldn’t characterize him any more broadly than that as my “Rav”, though the respect I had and still have for him is enormous.
I take issue with your use and implied definition of “frum” Jews. You don’t have a monopoly on the term, specific or colloquially used. Neither do I. I choose to use it, as many if not most do, as a loose definition most akin to “observant” which goes far beyond the Yeshivish world both towards the chassidish world and towards the centrist or modern orthodox world. (BTW, I dislike all of these labels. observant works for me). I don’t think, thus, that “most frum Jews should follow the mainstream Yeshivish hashkafa.” is either true or even desirable. As I and many, many others define it, that sounds presumptuous. Within the machne of shomrei mitzvos, elu voelu divrei elokim chayim.
Lilmod, the following statement of yours truly troubled me. “Rav Noach Weinberg zatsal was a big Tzaddik, but I’m not sure that he should be quoted as though he was the Gadol Hador and everyone has to follow him.”
As many who have been here longer than you can attest, I’m rarely interested in the My Gadol is bigger than your Gadol absurdity that often takes place here. I question the entire structure that has been built up around these manhigim, where access is restricted, askonim are paramount, and its impossible to know even if a letter or pashkevcil has actually even been signed by the quoted Gadol.
I certainly did not and do not make any assertion as to Rav Noach’s suitability for that description. It makes not an iota of difference to my incredible esteem and respect for him. Lilmod, he should be quoted as an expert, if not the foremost expert, in kiruv in the last 60 years. As I wrote, no one, with the possible exception of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, had a better understanding of the needs of those who are rechokim, or the capacity of the observant world to bring them closer to Torah. Whether that makes him a Gadol hador in your eyes is irrelevant to me and to the discussion.
But as such, I quote him as among the highest experts and Torah authorities on the subject of kiruv. If you want to be involved in kiruv, it behooves you to learn his mehalech – as well as that of the Rebbe, as well as that used by AJOP, by NCSY, by individual powerhouses like Jeff Seidel or R’Yom Tov Glaser in Jerusalem. I don’t expect you to learn to mountain bike or surf as well as R’Yom Tov, but I do think that every one involved in kiruv should see how he has a hashpo’oh on thousands of rechokim every year. Eizehu chachom, halomed mikol ish. And even more so when that ish is the expert of the generation.
Does everyone have to follow him? Who said so? not me. I quoted his words to me. As someone else wrote, the Lubavitcher Rebbe said something similar. As I love to point out, every Jew has choices. You can choose to follow him, or not. bechira chofshis is a wonderful thing.
Lilmod – Aside perhaps from the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt’l, R’ Noach zt’l was perhaps the single most important and influential individual, Gadol, Tzadik to shape the kiruv world. I didn’t read it in a book, or hear it from someone else. He told it to me. I choose to heed his approach over others you may find more palatable.
I do, however, agree that there is micro-kiruv, if you will, sharing something learned, something experienced, and the joy of that coming closer to Judaism. And then there is macro-kiruv, where one is immersed in kiruv with people who have no Jewish background and bring other influences. I think Rav Noach zt’l was talking about micro-kiruv in that statement.
I agree that one who engages in full-bore kiruv needs several things. One, a Rav who can act as an advisor. Two, a rock solid emunah. Not blind, but built on an immersive Jewish education, life experience, and attention to sources. Three, an excellent but practical halachic immersion. Not one of being a kanoi. One with the understanding of the latitude and kulos that many Gedolim have applied to the sensitive work of kiruv. Four, self confidence WITH humility. Confidence in their education and emunah, humility in knowing there is much still to learn. Fifth, compassion. If you haven’t walked in the shoes of the person you are being mekarev, and you likely haven’t, you MUST be compassionate enough to know your approach may not heal, salve or answer their very real challenges, and you have to be OK with that.
Lastly, something I learned from a former boss of mine who ran a very successful branch of an international kiruv organization. As a kiruv professional or lay outreach worker, you have to ask yourself: What is my goal? To reach 10 people who I can introduce the beauty of yiddishkeit to who I will foster until they are 100% chareidi? or to reach 1000 people who I can give the tools to make Jewish choices in their lives, give opportunities for further learning and growth, but not expect to all become frum, let alone chareidi? Once you’ve answered that question, you will find that your approach and your philosophy of kiruv will have directed you to the conclusion you came to, and will inform your actions going forward.
Rav Yaakov Luban of Highland Park is also Executive Rabbinic Coordinator at the OU. Yeshivish hashkofo. He would be a good resource.
Try Glatt 27 in highland park for delivery. They are situated near the yeshivish part of the community, and probably meet your standards. They are expensive, though, like most prepared food,and delivery would likely be extra depending on the size of the order.
Lilmod: I spent 15 years as a teacher, chavrusa, and host family with an international kiruv organization in a volunteer capacity. later on, I worked for 5 years in executive management of another, youth centered international kiruv organization. Even today I have a lot to learn, but I was zocheh to have many friends, influencers and true tzadikim have a hashpo’oh on me regarding the practical and philosophical elements of kiruv during that time.
I was zocheh to meet Rav Noach Weinberg, zt’l a number of times. He once told me that once someone, even the most beginning baal tshuva, has learned and internalized even one mitzvah, he or she has a responsibility to share it with others to the best of their ability. If that means by example, so be it. If it means by teaching, so be it.
So I do take some issue with your statement above about Rebshidduch being unready for Kiruv. She may be unready to be learning bchavrusa with someone who doesn’t seem interested and not know the best way to deal with it. And she certainly has to achieve a level of maturity to be able to convey a firm 360 degree commitment if that’s what she is portraying to this individual.
But, as Rav Noach said, each Jew has a responsibility to teach another, even if it’s one mitzvah, and even if it is the smallest amount of kiruv.
I know they used to have an english program at JCT. Dont know if it is still around.
Machon Lev/Jerusalem College of Technology is a fantastic institution, which combines Engineering and other technical education with Beis Medresh learning. It is Israel’s leading school for electro-optics engineering.
It also has a specific program designed for Chareidi men on its Givat Mordechai Campus.
Rebshidduch – If you aren’t trolling everyone (and honestly, it’s hard to tell), please consider the following. And I say this as someone who almost never comments on threads like this.
If you don’t want to give someone a ride, say I’m sorry, I can’t do this anymore, and don’t editorialize. move on.
If you are still intent on helping the guy with rides and consequently hanging out,
1. Although you are in your twenties, your posts here do not reflect the maturity of someone in that age bracket. If these posts are a true reflection, and you intend to find your bashert and marry, your comments on that and even on how to tell someone something they might react negatively to demonstrate that you are simply not ready. Hold on to your dreams, and have some self control, and revisit this when you have some more life experience or good advice.
2. If you are seeking the blessing of several anonymous people here, most of whom have a yeshivish perspective, to give a false rationale for stopping a chesed or for dating someone who doesn’t meet yeshivish standards, and who wasn’t introduced in a yeshivish way, forget it, you will not ever get their approval, move on.
3. If you are intent on dating him anyway, perhaps in the hope of molding him into the man you want to marry, know that you will never, ever, ever, change him. He is the only person who can do that, no matter how strong willed and pure you think you are (and may be). It is a recipe for disaster. I speak from experience. Move on.
4. Please do your self a favour. take a deep breath. stop and think. Read, ask advice from non anonymous people, from people who aren’t contemporaries of yours with vested interests and a similar lack of life experience. Maybe a Rabbi or rebbitzen, maybe a therapist, but not necessarily so. A parent, an older sibling, a family friend, a former teacher. Advice is good, when YOU ask for it, and when YOU internalize it. Keep in mind that the decisions you make about how to deal with people, whether it is being honest with them when it is difficult, or about shidduchim and dating and marriage now have lifetime implications for how you will deal with every person, every challenge, every crisis.
Mods I hope that you will post this in full. Much of what I am writing applies not only to the dating situation but to the common sense and maturity that could help Rebshidduch with her decision making in all things, including who she gives a ride to.
The historian in me is curious. When/where was the first known usage of the specific term “gadol hador” referencing a generational Rabbinic leader in any widely recognized source? Who used it? In reference to whom? TIA.
I don’t think there’s much point in a state of the union address when you’ve only been in office for all of 40 days. Not much take credit for, except things proposed rather than legislated.
LU, there are parameters to giving tochacha in a halachic and useful way. If I am not mistaken, Joseph has shared these with us before. I’m not going to rtepeat all of those parameters here. Suffice it to say that a YWN forum does not meet the tochacha standard.
And as I was explaining above, I wasn’t giving tochacha to the OP in any case.
Againsthtetide – In saying that if you think its not tzniusdik or otherwise wrong, you should leave, I wasn’t making a judgement call on you. I think you and everyone else here has the capacity to make choices and decisions for themselves based on their worldview and their knowledge, and that they will be comfortable with the outcome of their choices; so, if it makes you uncomfortable, you should find somewhere else to be. It was neither a judgement, nor, LU, was it harsh.
My second point that I shared was based on the several years of experience here that many of us have. Often enough, people come here to promote their perspective, or that of their halachic manhig. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but posing it as a question in the manner done if that was the intent is a passive agressive tactic tht is, once again, familiar to many here.
My third point was, in earnest, if the question was asked neither to promote a particular world view, but out of a sense of conviction and perhaps discomfort with the status quo, davening helps. It would help you, Againstthetide, in that it can lead to clarity and to discovering the path to answers you need, and it can help me, if I am not measuring up to some celestial calculus of sechar and onesh, and you have an insight or perspective that I don’t share. tfilos from good honest people are always welcome.
Thank you DY. – LU, what he said.
and if the OP is truly asking for the right reasons, as I wrote, I’ll be grateful if they included me in their tefilos.
OP, if you feel it is wrong and its a bad hashpo’oh on you, you can leave. If you feel you need to tell others how to behave, I don’t think passive/aggressive questioning of the anonymous posters here is going to float your boat.
If, however, with the purest of intentions you are concerned for my neshomah, I can’t speak for everyone here, but I’ll thank you in advance for including me in your tefilos.
Thanks, DY.
My pleasure, lightbrite. happy to help.
Rashi traded in wines and perhaps grew in his own vineyards as well. His profession and his location dictated an involvement in trade beyond his local environment. At his time there were significant Jewish communities in the area near him in Northeastern France and the entire Rhineland; in Spain; in Languedoc (Southwestern France) in the Ile de France (near Paris); in the city states that would become Italy; and points further accessible via the Mediterranean. There was also a very small number of Jews in what would become England, in places like London and York. Every one of these communities had merchants and traders. There was also a system of letters of credit within the communities that allowed for a remarkable flow of goods.
Rashi’s access to foods from these regions would only be inhibited by freshness and how well foods or spices kept over a long journey. So while citrus fruits for example wouldn’t be likely grown or eaten in the French/German borderlands where he lived, If they would keep long enough, he might occasionally get something of that nature from places like Lunel, or Narbonne, or Gerona. It would likely be harder to get these in the winter.
Later in Rashi’s life the chaos of the first crusade and the “people’s crusade” and the attendant attacks on Jews would have made access to any food more challenging. Certainly trade would have been curtailed.
The Champagne region where he lived part of his life grew a lot of root vegetables even before potatoes were introduced a few hundred years ago. turnips, carrots, etc were common. peas and lentils were too. There was more access to fish and poultry than to beef and lamb, and especially at that time, there was quite a bit of game such as deer in the forests of the Ardennes and the Aude. Apparently, though it wouldn’t impact Rashi’s diet, there was a great deal of wild boar and pigs, which WOULD have affected how much forest or grazing land was available for kosher animals.The area around Worms where he also lived had a bit less wild land and more settled farming land, so wheat and other grains woulds have been accessible as well. And both areas were and still are known for their cheeses, so there would have been access to some dairy products as well.
Another thing the area was known for, aside from wine, is beer, which means that barley grew in great abundance.
So, lightbrite, I hope that this helped. Another thing you might want to research yourself is to look into any agricultural terms Rashi may have used translated from Old French. He often did this, transliterating it into hebrew charachters and describing it as BLA’Z b’lashon am zu (in the colloquial language). There may be a concordance available of all of the hundreds of French words Rashi used in his commentary, but I am not aware of it. Anyone?
LU, becasue there is only one valid opinion on the matter. That one opinion just happens to be shared by virtually every pediatrician, GP, and vaccine researcher on the planet.
But, lets say there is room for personal choice here. So would anyone here who is a parent or intends to be one, make the choice not to vaccinate their child, and then allow their child to use a park, a pool, a school, a library, a camp, a playground? Because if there is even one immunosuppressed or immunodeficient kid there who can’t get vaccinated even if they want to, because of their condition, that child’s life will be endangered. Threatened, by your choice.
So, aside from all other issues, settled science, logic, statistics, or refusing to believe disproven and criminally prosecuted hoaxes, or the presumptions of a hollywood personality who wants to sell her books, Who is prepared to endanger someone else’s child? Who is prepared to take responsibility for a child’s death?
Not me.
A final thought. Many of us make the argument in the pro choice vs pro life debate that a potential life must be preserved, and that the rationale to end that potential life is in almost all cases false.
If one is pro life, does it not make sense to preserve actual life kal vechomer even more so than potential life? Vaccinating does so. Your choice to vaccinate your child preserves the life of another as I indicated above.
Choose life.
Soncino has been used for a half century, only being phased out in some shuls when Artscroll became available. In many ways it isn’t as good as Artscroll, especially in bringing meforshim beyond the Rishonim like Ramban and Ibn Ezra that it quotes liberally in its commentary. Artscroll comprehensively brought the works of the Maharal’s extensive commentary, the Chasam Sofer, as well as Rishonim like (occasionally, when applicable) the Meiri, which Hertz didn’t have access to becasue his ksav yad wasnt rediscovered until after the Soncino editions went to print.
It is distinguished by not being hagiographical like Artscroll sometimes is, and it was also as described above a direct response to christological interpretations of our Tanach.
BTW, I can recall seeing it in use in Agudas Yisroel shuls a long time ago, so it wasn’t only the MO who used it.
I’m personally very impressed with the Koren series of publications, which take the strengths of both the Soncino and Artscroll approaches and overcomes their weaknesses.
We’re always hearing here – ask your LOR. I think that whatever one thinks about the President, the tshuva, or Jared K and Ivanka T, it is wonderful to see a person in the public eye ask a shaila and abide by the tshuva.
Thank you, DY for being a meilitz yosher.
ITFT I didn’t know I was on trial, or parole, for that matter.
There’s one Dayan, and that’s HKBH.
And for the record, I have changed my approach to others here and I have hopefully demonstrated more respect for individuals and their opinions than my all-guns-blazing approach has evidenced in the past.
That doesn’t mean, however, that I have a different world view, just that I don’t feel its appropriate or necessary to put down or even challenge someone else’s or to gaslight a discussion into a specific way of thinking. I also value each person here, wherever on the spectrum their perspective comes from. That doesn’t mean I believe a more strict perspective is more correct than a more lenient one, or that a more lenient one is more correct than a strict one.
I value Jewish opinions informed by Jewish learning, and I value critical thinking informed by both broad and specialized knowledge and experience.
ITFT if you feel a need to be judgmental, or suspicious, I’ll leave you to it.
As I am in a rush, I’ll try to give an example to explain. its the difference between “How can I find a way to serve HKBH even with my doubts, my weaknesses, my pride and my limitations?” and “I don’t want to serve HKBH in this way but I do because of my family, my peers or my environment. I don’t get it, I don’t want to get it, and its meaningless to me.” The first is struggling with Hashem.
To me, its how in the story Elie Wiesel z’l wrote about the court of Jews in an Auschwitz barracks they tried and found HKBH “chayyav” and then they davened mincha. The second is abdicating responsibility to live as a Jew and finding rationales to NOT serve HKBH, only doing so when expectations force one to – but with an emptiness rather than enthusiasm.
I don’t know how I can explain it better. I strive to struggle WITH HKBH. In my field of work, we call even a challenging interaction “engagement”. it is predicated on “with”. What is predicated on “against”? insincerity, debasement and devaluation of a meaningful life, anger, vindictiveness, guilt.
Thank you, Joseph, for your response earlier. That’s a logical approach.
The comment on bechira, DY, refers back to a previous comment of mine on this thread and the idea of forcing someone to marry, not to you. Sorry.
I’d ask you to consider, DY, that struggling with Hashem and struggling against Hashem are two entirely different concepts.
As to ITFT’s last words, I value each and every poster here, including ITFT. If I took it personally it would tarnish if not diminish that value. I’m not interested in that, and so I choose not to respond harshly. Being thin skinned has a lot to do with not having confidence in one’s convictions, and lashing out because of a perceived slight would reflect a lack of confidence. I don’t lack it, and thus don’t feel a need to take it personally or lash out.
And, DY, even if I didn’t read the posuk that way, I would still firmly understand the creation of a world for automatons as pointless, and arguing against the exercise of bechira chofshis as counter to ratzon hashem.
DY, see Rashi on Lo Yaakov. he brings the pshat in Hoshea 12:5. clearly the Novi Hoshea and Rashi see it as struggling and prevailing. Also the Sifsei Chachomim citing the Gemoro in Menuchos describe it as the malach of Esav who he was struggling with and prevailing over. So, yes, if you want to say “Yisramalach” or “Yisramalcho”, you can I suppose, but the pshat says Yisrael.
And, DY, I’m not looking for readers here to understand it the way I do. I was simply explaining my own perspective.
I appreciate your being don l’kaf zchus of ITFT, but even if I saw the second last line as general, the last line can’t be understood any other way.
ITFT, what do those last two sentences mean? Are they directed at me? If so, I’d remind you that we as a people are named after one of our Avos whose name literally means “to struggle with the almighty”. HKBH didnt create the world for robots. Anyone who isn’t seeking clarity on what challenges him, or seeks understanding where human vicissitudes have muddied the waters of HKBH’s Torah, isn’t being honest with himself. But that is another matter entirely.
I brought this up in a polite and non confrontational way, to someone who I rarely agree with, asking for his perspective, because I know people in this circumstance. In fact I’ve taken a very non confrontational approach here for the better part of a year already. Your comment presumes something that is simply not the case.
I’m sorry that you felt a need to turn it into a personal attack on me. I’ll daven for you.
I am BH enthused with my emunoh in HKBH. I will never cease to struggle with the moral, halachic, and philosophical questions that arise from a Torah life and, thanks to my rebeim and my parents, from a good Jewish education.
I will continue follow the Kotzker’s interpretation of “Lo Saasu Kein L’Hashem Elokeichem” and the example of Yaakov Avinu. I won’t presume to tell you how to express your emunoh. Kindly refrain from presuming to tell me how to express mine.
Joseph, I have a question for you. Not trying to score political points on it, but I am curious about the halachic AND moral implications of this situation. I’m stating up front that I don’t think coercion is the right thing to do in any marriage circumstance. Just my opinion, not trying to convince anyone otherwise.
So as we know there are people who have an inclination or attraction to the same gender. (I am not getting into the whole therapy discussion. Not relevant here). Some of these people, in our community, recognize the inclination, also recognize the prohibition, and abide by the Torah’s perspective, holding back those inclinations and not acting on them (I am also not getting into the discussion of the impact of such suppression on the individual).
Some of these people will choose to marry, become parents, and live their lives in the chareidi community while completely adhering to the prohibition. Others will completely adhere to the prohibition, but can not or do not find themselves able to have a marriage with the opposite gender.
They are good, God fearing people who are successfully adhering to a Torah prohibition. In this case, in your opinion, is it right, necessary or advisable for a Beis Din to force them to marry, as has been demonstrated a Beis Din has the power to do?
Music? Pas’t nisht.
Could lead to dancing. 😉
Vehamayvin yovin.
It may be that halacha allows a Posek to do so. I’m way more interested in the individual who asks the Shaila.
What human being doesn’t want to exercise their bechira in choosing the individual who will be their life partner?
If you aren’t going to exercise it for such a momentous reason, which, aside from the enormous motivation of having an “ezer knegdo” and a partner in every endeavour; for which the Torah teaches “Al Kein yaazov Ish es Oviv V’es Imo”; which offers infinite opportunities for doing mitzvos; what will you exercise it for?
And if you don’t want to exercise it at all, what is the point of your existence as a Jew, or as a human? Making holy choices pleases Hashem. Making no choices makes you a robot, and clearly HKBH gave us our greatest ancestors and Avos to demonstrate that.
On the other hand, there are significantly fewer, but still many who claim descent from Rav Shmuel Ben Natronai, son in law of the RAVaN (R Eliezer ben Natan).
The name Natronai is of unquestionable Babylonian origin, and associated with the family of the Resh Galuta, who had patrilineal descent from David Hamelech.
The Otzar Hagedolim brings the tradition of a deposed Resh Galuta named Natronai exiled and appearing in Southwestern France in the Lunel/Narbonne area several generations – about 200 years earlier, and Binyomin of Tudela wrote of visiting Narbonne where (I’m quoting) the “Zerah Hakedosha” resides at about the time of R’ Shmuel’s father. So it isn’t definitive, but likely, that this name Natronai (extremely rare in Europe) belonged to a father to son descendant of David Hamelech.
Assurnet – there are many families and many thousands of descendants of Rashi alive today. I am descended from two of his daughters – as I said, like many thousands of others. The challenge for those looking for a Messianic descent from Rashi is that Rashi had three daughters (Yocheved, Miriam, and Rachel) and no sons. Thus descent from Rashi, while most likely Davidic through Rav Yochanan HaSandlar, can not be father to son.
Maybe the issue isn’t whether something is too much or too little, justified or not, but rather the need or desire by the authority figures to shape (control??) the discussion and the maskonoh in these communities. And maybe that control is what most of the constituents of those communities want?
I used to think that desire for control was absolutely wrong and unjustified. Maybe sometimes it is. But often enough people make choices about who they want to be led by and how they want to be led. Especially if that is leading them to a continuing Torahdik life.
LU: if I am not mistaken, it is the halachic norm to turn to a mumche in a particular issue to guide halachic decisions where the specific and current circumstances need halachic application. In this case, the mumche would be an expert in military discipline and Tohar haneshek. The IDF officer who wrote the policy would seem to be a mumche, and he came to a similar conclusion to what I wrote about this case, writing in an OP ED recently that this soldier did not act in accordance with Tohar Haneshek or his communicated orders.
Do you think that any army, let alone a Jewish one, can operate when each soldier makes all of their own decisions in a security situation? That would be incomprehensible to anyone who has served in any army or studied their actions. Each soldier does have the responsibility to question any order that violates the Tohar Haneshek policy. That is clear. But not killing the terrorist did not violate that policy.
As well, there is in application of Tohar Haneshek an active vs passive role. It is far clearer to demonstrate why one should save a life rather than why one should take one IN THESE circumstances (ie that the evil terrorist was already down, wounded and disarmed).
Israel and its army strive (sometimes, and fail, sometimes) to respect halacha; but it is not as currently constituted a halachic state as envisioned in the Torah (no melech, no kohen godol, no bais hamikdosh, and far, far removed from the agricultural society that most ste/land related halacha is predicated on). To thus expect its army to treat every enemy as Agag the Amaleki is unrealistic and frankly absurd.
He’s everyone’s son. Just like every other Chayal. and just like every other chayal, he was responsible for Tohar Haneshek, and just like every other soldier, he was responsible to follow orders and maintain a disciplined posture in all situations.
If he violated either of those responsibilities, which the judges found he did, and which the evidence seems to bear out, there is a disciplinary process that Tzahal has, and like any army must have.
Does that take away from the fact that the terrorist was scum, that killing him in the initial response would/could have been appropriate?
No.
Does that take away from the fact that Azaria acted against protocol because a friend and fellow soldier was injured by this terrorist, or because he saw killing the prone and wounded attacker would amybe deter others?
No.
He’s still everyone’s son even having acted against orders, even in jail, even if he’s done something wrong. And the terrorist is still evil even if he was filmed being killed contrary to discipline and protocol.
Sometimes what is not written can tell us quite a bit.
The mother of Constantine the Great, Helena, is known to have traveled the length and breadth of Eretz Hakodesh, purportedly identifying all sorts of “locations” important to Christians, as well as some based on our traditions. For example, she decided she knew where the site of the eish mitoch hasneh was, and promptly built a church there. etc.
Why do I bring up this delusional old lady and her travels? Because several of the people who were with her wrote down her pronouncements. Primary sources. And though she spent much time in Beit Lechem, where she decided on the site of a pretty famous church, from the sources at the time she says absolutely nothing about kever rochel.
The implication is clear. Her scribes wrote nothing about it because, like the Maaras hamachpela and the mokom hamikdosh, the site was already very well known. She couldn’t apply her “inspiration” to things that were already being identified and used for many many years.
CT Lawyer, the criminal code where I live defines Assault as the use of force or threat of force.
That is what I am referencing. I do not live in the United States. So, though I am a big fan of yours, I think you made an assumption about my post and definition.
MA, what about those of us who try to live a frum life where we say “this is the correct way FOR ME”? I don’t expect Daas Yochid to live his life like me, and I don’t think he is wrong for living it the way he does.
I try to look at others and accept that what they are doing is correct FOR THEM”
Where it gets complicated is where some take the obligation to have a good hashpo’oh on others to say YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG!” as opposed to “YOU MAY WANT TO CONSIDER DOING THINGS THIS WAY”
And where it gets even harder to find the right approach is where another Jew is doing something he or she feels is the Torah way which infringes on the choices of another Jew to find their own derech.
That’s what I find the hardest. It is where I often enough fail to demonstrate the tolerance I seek by condemning what I see as their intolerance. What I see. To them it may not be intolerance, or to them the intolerance is justified by Torah. I am challenged to reconcile that with my outlook, and I think we all could benefit from being don l’kaf zchus more often.
If the child was endangering or assaulting other kids or staff, the teacher can restrain them as per the standards of the school board (which it should have trained all staff or at least teachers on).
If it isn’t in this context, it is assault, plain and simple, no matter how chutzpadik or disruptive the klid might have been.
If its a one off, its still assault, but my understanding of the word abuse in the context of schools would indicate something that is repeated or going on for a long time. (I stand to be corrected. Its just semantics about the meaning and use of the word).
For a mandated reporter it has to be reported immediately. For anyone else it is simply witnessing a crime against a child. what would you do if it was your child?
And if all other considerations of common sense do not move you, I can’t think of a more appropriate application of dina demalchusa dina than the protection of the vulnerable from harm.