Sorry to disappoint you, Feif Un, but Modzitser and other chassidishe musical traditions and nigunim were very heavily influenced by French military music, as Napoleon’s armies came through (and retreated through) the areas they were in in 1811-1812. Did you ever wonder why chassidishe nigunnim sound so much like marches? because they are marches. The French ” La Marseillaise” the national anthem, is used as a nigun still by Lubavitchers. There’s a sefer called sefer hanigunim that has much of these tunes. Many of them will sound somewhat familiar to classical music aficionados.

Blanket statements might be fine for some issues. but each child is different, and each parent’s circumstances are different. Some people, in fact, have to make decisions for special needs children (at both ends of the spectrum) as well as to take into account their lack of resources.

Boom…pfsst. That was the sound of elu voelu divrei elokim chayim falling to the ground and crumbling to dust. so sad.

The problem we have with defining Edom is that over time our gedolim began to use ethnic terms that had specific geographic and linguistic references for Imperial and religious meanings. For example, Edom came to be defined as the Roman Empire, and later the Catholic church. Ishmael came to be defined as Islam and Muslims, even though that religion only came into being 1350 years ago. So any actual ethnic reference that may have applied to Edom, which disappeared as a kingdom before Rome rose across the Mediterranean, no longer held much value. But if you are asking who the people who lived in the Negev/Jordan/Saudi area around the gulf of Aqaba and north and east of it most resemble in linguistic and genetic terms, it would be their cousins to the southeast.

Sam2, I beg to differ. During the time of the gemara (200-700 CE by most accounts), the area was ruled by a number of groups, but mostly by Persians and Parthians, who shared ethnic and linguistic roots. Megilas Esther gives us, at an even earlier time, evidence of a distinct Persian ethnicity, not least in its use of Persian language, for example “Achashdarpanim” ” Pashos” which are clearly what we today call satraps and Pashas which are Persian terms, as well as “achashteranim”, and other words that had no equivalent in Lashon Hakodesh.

Until the rise of Islam in the mid 600’s, Arabs as a dominant ethnicity were confined to the Arabian peninsula and desert areas nearby, if they were nomadic beduin, as opposed to city dwellers. Given that we are told the Gemara was finished within 50-75 years of that time, and in the preceding 400 years the Jews lived in Persian dominated cities (for example, Pumpeditha, a Persian name) I think they knew who they lived among. Also, when the gemara wanted to, it identified the area (as opposed to the nation and the monarchy), as Bavel, a geographic term that hadn’t been applied to any ethnic group since the fall of the first beis hamikdash.

By the way, those North Africa Arabs? where do you think they came from? The second wave of Muslim conquest that swept them to the Atlantic. They originated in the Arabian peninsula too.

Lastly, and most importantly, The gemara in Yoma talks about the “end” coming when Edom will fight Paras.

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Edom is interesting, because before it began being identified with Rome and the church, it was originally identified with nomadic detert and hill dwelling tribes of the descendants of Esav who lived generally south and east of Eretz Yisroel. In other words, Arabs.

Tums, If the sheva mitzvos bnei noach have to do with torah, then democracy fits in to #7. Let’s say it doesn’t though. Red lights have nothing to do with Torah either, but you stop at them anyways. Again, IF you live in and benefit from a country with a democratic system, you are obliged by your benefit to respect that system, including its freedoms, in the public realm.

You can choose to change that system and its standards, but to do so, unless you bring either rule at the point of a gun or an act of hakodosh boruch hu, you need to convince the others you share the country with. It has been done before, it’s not impossible. Unless you remove yourself from the environment and the society and its benefits, you don’t have much of a practical case.

It might shock you, MDD, to find out that I am influenced by dealing with what exists in the here and now, not by what you think my political leaning is. First of all, you know nothing about me, and if you did, you would know that the New York Times and the mainstream media in general, and left wing politics in particular, are the opposite of my world view.

Quid pro quo in a democracy is a matter of simple menschlichkeit. People who live in liberal democracies take their freedoms for granted, and are often very quick to point out where someone else’s freedoms should end, thinking little about the cost/benefit analysis of their own participation.

I believe that you have to deal with the reality you live in, not act as if the one you imagine is already here. That means you have to deal with the democratic process if you live in a democracy. If you want to bring a Torah Hashkofah, like it or not you have to give the electorate a compelling reason to vote for it, and you have to honestly tell them, if you believe it to be so, that that is the last election they will ever have. Are you prepared to do that? Do you think you will get very far?

Lastly, Dina demalchusa dina applies, – especially for those who don’t look so kindly on the Medina, unless the Jews are being persecuted for being Jews (not asked to maintain their hashkofas and chumras without forcing them on others, but persecuted)and have no recourse to law or legislation.

How about this one, my favorite quote from my favorite writer.

“It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.”

If you want to understand atilla’s role in European history, you first need to recognize that the Western Europe his hordes swept through were in transition. During the third through seventh centuries, waves of Eastern tribes were being pushed by demographic, economic, and climatic factors west from the steppes of central Asia into Europe. The Goths, Vandals, and many other groups encountered settled tribes such as the Gauls in areas that had been part of the slowly disintegrating Roman Empire. What set the Huns apart, in the mid fifth century, was their immense numbers and their implacable military tactics. In short, they overwhelmed almost everyone they came in contact with as they moved through Eastern, Central, and finally Western Europe. The only way to stop them was to bring to bear enough force utilizing the Roman style of unified command and action (as they perfected in the organization and use of the legionary system) instead of the tribal approach of each heroic warrior fighting as an individual. The leader of the weakened Roman forces, Aetius, convinced the King of the Visigoths, Theodoric, to unite and confront Atilla’s forces near Chalons in the heartland of what is now France. Their efforts finally stopped the Westward advance of the Huns (Thought Theodoric died at Chalons) , and Atilla’s hordes turned back east, eventually dividing and being defeated after trying to conquer what is now Italy.

Over the course of his conquest, the lack of logistical organization and supply eventually caught up with the Huns, as they suffered in their Atilla’s last campaigns from disease and starvation. Atilla died less than 2 years after his defeat at Chalons.

Military historians have speculated that the seeds of modern Western modes of warfare were sown in the alliance that defeated Atilla. It was the first post-legionary campaign in which a smaller number defeated a much larger force because of the superiority of their tactics, weaponry, and organization.

1. Not to do full kriah at Alenu in Musaf Rosh Hashonoh, only Yom Kippur (from Mateh Efrayim, hilchos yomim noroim, an ancestor of mine)

2. Having one arm out of the kittel under the chuppah (no idea how this one started)

3. Just kiddush before lunch on shmini atzeres in the sukkah, otherwise not in there on S’A at all. (minhag mishpachas Rashi)

I wish you were right YIT. Unfortunately I have heard the same people who depend on these women to do a tahara on their niftaros, and do it with skill and expertise and knowledge of halacha, say they can’t or won’t eat at the house of these women, some of whom were the founders of the schools, shuls or even communities they live in. To me, it smacks more of laziness than narrow mindedness. Balabatim who have serious issues with halacha in business dealings aren’t scrutinized, but since you can see if a woman is wearing a hat or not, you can presume on her kashrus observance or lack thereof.

What I am saying is that presumption – especially when we are talking about marbitzos torah, or gmilei chesed, or the like – is a real shame, and the resulting embarrassment, which I have seen with my own eyes, is, we are told, like murder.

C’mon, Aries. Tell us how you really feel. 🙂

Wolf – some of the readers/posters here have a hashkafic problem with leading and educating by personal example rather than by assering, prohibiting, and ostracizing.

WIY – really? chewing gum in the street is modernish? I could understand if you said something like listening to an ipod, or texting, (on weekdays :)) or even ch’v talking to boys. That would make sense. But chewing gum?

The source of anti-Semitism is that Hakodosh boruch hu brought morality and ethics to the world through his Torah and his people, and the world has resented these limitations since then. On a more immediate note, the reason Christianity and Islam have fundamental problems with the continued existence, success, and sovereignty of Jews is that our presence in the world is a constant proof and reminder that their supercessionist religions are simply wrong.

I think there can be little doubt that even one who learns but doesn’t become a Rov or posek, as long as he is doing it lishmo, is indeed doing something for klal yisroel, in fact for the entire world. It isn’t a matter of IF something is being accomplished, but HOW MUCH. And what is the opportunity cost? Could this person accomplish more by learning part time and working part time? Could he then be able to give more tzedokoh, or end up supporting someone who would become a rov or a posek?? Could he take some of the burden off of his wife, and make a more cheindik environment for his kids to grow up in, thereby bringing the potential for a gadol from his own family in the future? These are the questions which demand answers, and I don’t think asking them is apikorsus, If it is, then you would be calling the Rambam an apikorus.

Zahavasdad – please recall the provenance of Yiddish – it is a language of golus, composed more than 75% of German words. Not exactly loshon hakodesh either. Kind of strange that some yeshivos would see it as purer than english.

People – Akkadian was a language spoken and written in the land (called for a time Akkad) between the Tigris and Euphrates, near where Avrohom Avinu came from originally.

The Torah (and archaeology for that matter) shows us that there were settled cities, culture, and kingdoms quite early on – when there were pretty much only nomadic tribes and a few walled towns in E’Y. Here’s a radical thought – Loshon Hakodesh was literally that – the language that holy men, like Avrohom Avinu, spoke. And he spoke the language of the people where he lived. As the family of Avrohom grew, so did the language it transplanted into the land of the K’nanim, with the geographic shifts (for example, words relating to seas and coasts, which Akkad didn’t have, being land-bound) and other words describing new phenomenon (much like the gemara uses words like traklin, pruzbul, achsanya, that didn’t come from Lashon Hakodesh or from Aramaic).

The written language we know as loshon hakodesh continues to evolve, all you need to do is look at the inscriptions on the rimon found in Yerushalayim from the Bayis rishon, then look at the dead sea scrolls (even within those, there is a range of slight differences over the 200 year period within which they were written – you can see a frum point of view on this from Professor Lawrence Shiffman) and then look at the cairo gnizah materials and then look at our modern writing – slow but clear changes in the writing, evolving, as all languages do. It doesn’t take anything away from the kedusha of what is written or spoken.

Reading this thread, I have to ask, as I have on other topics – have we no confidence in the mosdos that two generations of gedolim were moser nefesh to create to revive torah after the Shoah? Are we to assume with a geder like this that we and our children have learned nothing in the yeshivos and seminaries we built and sent them to? Do we assume our investment of time and money and tears and sweat in their education was a waste of time? Because assuming that people will not draw upon the temimus and yashrus we infuse their lives with through their teachers and rebbeim is just that. An assumption it is all for naught.. And I reject that. I have too much respect for those who built our mosdos. I have too much respect for parents who were moser nefesh and always provided a good example for their children. If one want’s to make a personal cheshbon hanefesh that he or she cannot handle the situation – then make the decision for yourself, and then ask a rov to guide you to a point where you can safely participate in your community friends, and family life without worry. But consider the efforts of all kinds that went in to making you a ben or bas Torah. Do you really believe they were of no use at all?

I can’t think of a more effective geder than distance and anonymity that still allows frum Jews to discuss halocho in a constructive way, while including everyone in the discussion who is nogeah b’dovor.

Last time I was in Paris was 15 years ago. I stayed at a hotel called the Windsor Opera. 3 star, relatively near (within a 15 minute walk of the major Jewish area near the Rue de la Victoire shul and 4 blocks from the kosher restaurants around Rue Richer and a few smaller shuls. At the time it had key locks and a front desk to leave them at, rather than a card entry (good for shabbos) Not a Jewish owned hotel, but the proprietor was very nice. It is still around and has its own website. google it.

First, I’d be much more likely to take them to a library than a bookstore. I spent a lot of time in the public library – I inhaled books, my mother a’h used to say. So too did most of the yeshivishe and frum velt in my neighborhood. at the time, it was not only considered appropriate, it was encouraged. Not too many people had televisions, and of the homes that did, responsible parents didn’t let their kids watch much at all. Movies were a rarity, and kids played outside. (I’m not talking about the 40,s, I’m talking about the 70’s).

I’m certain that the quality of some of the books in the library has declined, in both appropriateness and simple style, but the vast majority of materials available for kids, taken by a parent who can scan books before they are taken out, is still quite good.

Bookstores, especially the big chains like B&N, cater to a broader market, and carry what sells. If inappropriate sells, they will carry it. So I’d be very careful, and maybe go if you need to without the kids.

HOWEVER, let’s not make the assumption that every thing that is not heilige is evil, as some posters here have explicitly stated. There is a huge amount of knowledge in the world that is neither pure nor evil. Is there something evil about calculus? trigonometry? chemistry? instrumental classical music? landscape paintings? a children’s story about a big red dog? Of course not.

We do not live in a dualistic world, like the Zoroastrians or the Gnostics believe. We live within the creation of the Aibishter, who is the source of everything, and he gave us the knowledge to distinguish between the heilige, the evil, and everything in between that we have to use our seichel, our judgement, and our Torah education to assess and determine its worthiness.

Dina Demalchusa Dina applies only in a country where the laws are neither arbitrary nor cruel, like they were in post-reconquista Spain, and that it does not apply to yaharog veal yaavor mitzvos, like bowing to a cross.

You also posted an encouragement to lie to a judge in a country where the government is neither cruel nor arbitrary. If you did so b’meizid, it is a clear aveirah, a violation of dina demalchusa dina, among other issurim.

We are having a discussion about general politics and standing for election and voting, and no one has brought in the applicability of Dina Demalchusa Dina? If a country that governs with intended yashrus instead of arbitrariness and cruelty permits, encourages, and expects women to vote and run for public office, and the position is not specifically for a Jewish woman as head of a kehila or a shul, where is the strength of the argument not to allow it?

Here are a few more questions, though, beyond the DMD issue.

If a shul or kehila has acute challenges, and the best possible candidate to lead them through these challenges was a woman with the professional and personal qualifications and experience to save the kehila or shul, would you let it fail or would you find a way for her to lead?

Rabbi Cohen, with all due respect, your understanding of responsibility and authority is not very deep. B’dieved “allowing” women to vote? Anyone voted into office works FOR the electorate, and thus the electorate is in a much higher position of authority. Who controls a thing? He (or she) who has the power to destroy it. The electorate makes or breaks political careers, so the responsibility of voting, which the Rabonim matired for women, is a much higher level of leadership.

Shlishi, really, she is sinning? She had no idea it had even happened. Not even a shogeg, and certainly not a meizid. And really, Shlishi, why use a christian concept like “sin”? When a Jew is oiver a Lo Taase, it is a transgression, not a sin. One is an action and the other is a state of being that is foreign to Judaism. And the person who saw it? Sinning? He turned away and considered a way to help the person without being oiver Hamalbin pnei chaveiro brabim. Transgressing would have been ch’v continuing to look. And no, before you suggest it, wearing a burka is not a k’dai alternative for Jewish women.