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One should have kovod habriyos, clearly. One should show further kovod to the elderly, perhaps more so than one’s elders who might be only a year older.
The challenge could be if an elder, a kohen, or a rov (r’l) has done something that makes it hard to demonstrate respect to them.
I had this situation with someone who falls into one of the categories listed. I had a difficult challenge demonstrating kovod given certain events I knew of firsthand. I chose to avoid being around this individual rather than demonstrate a lack of kovod to him in any interaction. I certainly didn’t feel it appropriate to confront him, and I couldn’t just forget what I knew (not a matter of L’H, and not a matter of criminal nature, r’l, but of events witnessed by me and others). So I felt the best way was to stay away.
I don’t know if it was the proper thing to do, but it felt like the only choice at the time (25 years ago until his death about 10 years ago).
I never ask this on these forums, but I’d actually like to hear opinions on if I did the right thing.
Loyal Jew, you wrote:
“Yirmiyahu warned us again and again but left the door open for tshuva at any time. Once he said that if only we’d stop carrying on Shabbos in Yerushayim it would be good enough.”
Assuming you are talking about the Novi, could you quote the posuk for me where he says explicitly that it would be “good enough”? Good enough for what? Learn some Yirmiyohu, specifically the 30th and 31st prokim, and see how HKBH is bringing the geuloh he talked about in Yirmiyohu right now!
“the enemies are closing in,”
Ignoring of course the nisim and niflo’os and strengththat HKBH has wrought using his instrument, the IDF and am yisroel. Ironic, because your fellow travelers also falsely accuse the frie Israelis of ignoring the same niflo’os and strength you are ignoring.
“the economy is failing,”
Perhaps, for those who do not work. If you haven’t been paying attention, Israel rode out the recent recession better than any industrialized country with the possible exception of Canada. It has the largest number of companies listed on NASDAQ outside of the US. It has a tremendous role in the world economy, and people from Warren Buffet ($4 Billion for ISCAR)to Bill Gates are investing in Israel. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE FOOLING? B’chasdei Hashem, he has caused a dynamic, flourishing economy to be created in Israel. Sorry if the reality doesn’t conform to your worldview.
“and they’re going to draft our last line of defense, the bochurim?!”
They are going to ask that bochurim to take their responsibilities as citizens seriously. There are already creative ways to do that, like the hesder model and sherut leumi that can both leave ample time to learn and be in environments that are positive. It doesn’t have to be an milchomo, except that those who are adamantly against it realize that their power is slipping, they don’t have the leverage in politics they used to have and they don’t have the budgets squeezed from the PM they used to have.
Loyal Jew, everything that happens in history happens because Hashem wills it to, no matter how glorious or how tragic. To say otherwise is to be kofer b’ikar. You didn’t mean to do that, did you?
There are currently a few Yeshivot in the Hesder program that are considered chareidi or have close ties to the chareidi velt – Bircas HaTorah in Shavei Shomron comes to mind. A constructive approach might be to create a fully chareidi stream of hesder, with both a study and Tzahal stream as well as a study and Sherut Leumi stream. I think that the army and the government would be amenable to a program that devotes the majority of time to learning, as they have done with existing hesder, and they might even go further.
Another idea is to take the initiative in creating new avenues in sherut leumi that could give b’nei Torah an incredible opportunity to have a hashpo’oh on Jews who have little exposure to Torah and Mitzvos, be it in education, in social services, in helping the old and the infirm.
Bottom line is that there are constructive and creative ways to meet the challenge that don’t include hafganos and telling the other 5 million citizens of Israel that their children should be prepared to lay down their lives for another Jew, but ours shouldn’t, while still deriving benefit from the infrastructure, budgets, and services provided by the State that all Israelis live in. .
Derszoger, if you are going to lift critiques word for word from the moderator of Frumteens.com, or from a thread where Joseph first copied it from frumteens a year ago,
(http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/mi-sheberach-for-tzahal)
you could at least quoute it bshem omro, instead of plagiarizing it… I checked. Word for word.
Oh, by the way, getting haskomos in 1944 in Hungary and Slovakia when you are on the run from the Nazis is kind of a tall order for anyone. I’m just saying.
Avhaben, there were many people who were warning of the coming churban in 1937. Zeev Jabotinsky created an evacuation plan in 1936. I guess that means by your standards he was a Novi.
Not the least indication would have been the words Hitler (Y’SH) himself wrote in Mein Kampf in the twenties, where he elucidated what he wanted to do to the Jews, the edicts when he took power, and the Nuremberg laws of 1936. One had only to look at Julius Streicher’s Der Stuermer, or see such propaganda works as ‘The Eternal Jew”. They all pointed precisely towards genocide.
Hakatan, My grandfather and great grandfather (a’h) were chareidi, were connected to the greatest torah leaders of their time and place, in prewar Galitzia, and had a significant mesorah from their rabbinic forebears. They were in themselves very incvolved in the community. They wore chassidish levush on shabbes and yom tov in Krakow – bekeshe and shtraimel – and do you know where they davened? the Mizrachi shul. I get my mesorah from them, not the likes of you.
My other grandfather and grandmother were yerushalmim, my grandfather went to the original eitz chaim yeshiva, and my great uncle was a talmid at the chevron yeshiva when it was in chevron. They passed on a love of torah, am yisroel and ertez yisroel that crystallized itself in religious zionism. Their mesorah is also clear.
It is unfortunate that you didn’t have the brocho of having such a clear mesorah.
About 10 years ago, a friend gave me the sefer Em Habonim Semeicha By Rav Yissochor Teichtal, and his sources supporting a return to eretz yisroel and jewish nationalism are so numerous as to make it impossible to quote them here. Read the sefer.
I don’t know whose kool aid you’re drinking, but the enterprise of the medina as imperfect as it is is not failing, it is thriving. And within that thriving enterprise, more torah is being learned and supported than ever in Jewish history. Perhaps it is that obvious contradiction of the predictions of those who hate it that has you up in arms, but it will continue to thrive and still welcome you, despite your disdain.
Sam2, Derszoger, A few comments. First, by almost all accounts, there were about 12 million Jews in Europe and the Soviet Union pre war, and about 18 million Jews in the world overall.
Second, Sam, Derszoger is partially right. By 1938, the western countries had effectively closed their doors to Jewish immigration. The notorious Evian conference detailed their refusal to allow for more than a small number of Jewish European emigrants and refugees. However, Between Hitler’s rise to power in 1933 and late 1937 when the doors began to close more and more, there were opportunities to leave; And it was less difficult to get into Mandate Palestine before 1937 as well.
Actually Derszoger, depending on which midrash you quote, Shevet Efraim lost up to 300,000 men.
…and yet, hakatan, Ephraim was zoche to have Yehoshua bin Nun and even the Moshiach Ben Yosef come from him because of their zerizus.
In an earlier post in this thread I brought several mekoros from sources ranging from Neviim to geonim, to achronim, to more modern authorities like Rav Shlomo Zalmen Auerbach which indicate the opposite of what you are saying. You want to be mevazeh nevim, geonim, achronim, gedolim, that’s your business.
May HKBH lift the veil from your eyes and give you the insight to see the wonder of his intervention for his people in and through the Medina that he caused to be created, May those who run the Medina do so with increasing adherence to HKBH’s will, and may we all be zoche to not just the clear, unambiguous kibutz goliyos and the end of shibud malchuyos during the ikveso demeshicho we are now in, but also to the conclusion and completion of the geuloh bimhero beyomeynu.
deomo – small Beis Medresh on ground floor of office building just north of Glen Park on Bathurst.
derszoger, please, please learn some history. Seek out evidence from primary sources, immigration documents and statistics. You will find out that much of the immigration in the late 19th century was secular zionist, but it was relatively small. Many chareidi Jews, Yerushalmim, in fact thousands, including my great grandparents actually left at the onset of severe Turkish persecution during WW1, and lots of them didn’t come back, going instead to the US. Much of the immigration up until the British firmly closed the door in the 30’s was encouraged, facilitated, and arranged by the Jewish Agency, which was the forerunner of the government. Do you think the medinah started out of thin air? Chaim Weizmann was working for Jewish immigration forty years before the creation of the medinah of which he was the first president.
Health, I was at an asifah for Yom Hazikaron at the largest orthodox shul in North America last night. There were over 1500 frum Jews there, and the Consul General of Israel who is leaving his post after 5 years in our city was honored and spoke officially. He spoke of HKBH’s protection, he clearly (and I have heard him say this elsewhere) described the frum community he was addressing as the bedrock of support for Israel in a city whose Jewish community, secular and frum alike, is known for its support for Israel. So, there. An official representative of the State of Israel doing exactly what you say they don’t do.
The Medina as imperfect as it is, is unambiguously part of HKBH’s plan for the atchalta degeulah. A geulah which is for all of am yisroel, not just those who have your world view. Again, I have you in my tfilos, and may you have the brocho of wisdom bestowed and the burden of misdirected kanous removed.
147 +1. chills and tears. every time.
Oh, and just one more demonstration of how misguided your position is, Health. Do you know where the Prime Minister was this morning in Israel? He was attending the annual Worldwide Chidon haTanach, Held every Yom Haatzmaut, a contest on knowledge of Tanach. Prime Ministers have been coming for decades, to give kovod to Torah on Yom Haatzmaut, and there is even a special question they traditionally ask to the contestants. This Prime Minister’s son happens to be a religious young man, and he came in third place 2 years ago. Hmmm. must come from a home where torah is ignored, right?
Well, Health, that’s certainly a convincing response. It’s OK, though. I understand that it is hard to change a misguided way of thinking in a flash. I’ll daven for you.
Health, I gave a lot of thought to answering your post. And I thought twice because I didn’t want to answer rashly.
You wrote – “The point is, what you “Frum” Zionim fail or don’t want to understand is this:”
Really, Health, if you get some kind of gratification from putting my frumkeit, or that of other Zionists, in quotation marks, go right ahead. I answer to HKBH’s yardstick, not to yours.
You go on to write
“What does the Gov. do on this day? They speak about how strong they are -how strong their army is and how much stronger they & the army will be. People who learned all the Torah, not just pick bits & pieces to fit their fancy, understand this is clearly Koach V’oizem Yodi Ossoh Ess Hachayil Hazeh.”
Well, you happen to be quoting a posuk I’ve known and studied intimately, as it is in my bar mitzvah parsha. But I will tell you, I have been lucky in my professional and personal life to have met and interacted with 3 Israeli Prime Ministers and one President. I’ve had many hours of discussion with soldiers in the IDF, from the level of General to Private, from jobnikim to elite commandos. I can’t count the number of times they have described the nisim and niflo’os involved in the creation and the defense of Israel. It’s simply slander to describe these people in the way you have.
Menachem Begin, who I never met, was a God fearing and God praising Jew. If you ever bothered to read his books or speeches, he was constantly thanking HKBH for his nisim. Every motzoei shabbos in his apartment he would gather talmidei chachomim and intellectuals for a parsha shiur and discussion.
President Peres, who I first met when he was foreign minister, and later when he was President, has said this explicitly and publicly. He has worked with many frum organizations, including Aish Hatorah, and has publicly given thanks to HKBH for their work.
Bibi Netanyahu praised and quoted the Lubavitcher Rebbe in his speech to the UN in September. Look it up. He also made detailed reference to Chizkiyahu hamelech and our sovereignty and yearning over hundreds of generations. Nothing, not a word like you describe. Look it up. He closed with an ‘im yirtzeh hashem, and his last line was a quote from Yishayohu. You are either wilfully ignoring facts or you are sadly mistaken in your assumptions.
“Being like this is Direct Kefira against Hashem and is one of the reasons Hashem brings destruction on the Jews. (Parsha Tochocha)”
It might be if it were true. I’ve given personal edus and public expressions that it is not true. And more – Please, talk to any individual who has been in combat. I’ve talked to dozens. Even the most secular of them will not say kochi v’otzem yodi. Most will say Hashem protected them. Even the Atheists among them will say their comrades were the giborim, not them. Show me a boastful chayal who says kochi veotzem yodi, and I will show you someone who has never been in combat.
“Why can’t you understand this simple concept? Why do you have such Negious to the Freye Medina?”
I am proud to have such negious to the medina. There could be a number of reasons for it. Two of my four grandparents were Yerushalmim, and their families had to leave because of the oppression of the Turks before we were sovereign. Some of my (frum) relatives helped establish the state,and too many of my father’s family perished because of a lack of it.
I studied Jewish History both within the frum velt and academically, and write about it. I know my sources. I know the cost of not having sovereignty.
I know that the flourishing of Torah in the last 64 years would never have happened without a sovereign Jewish state.
I worked to get Russian Jews out of danger and to Israel when Pamyat was collecting their addresses for a pogrom in 1990. The state you curse took them in. You probably don’t even know who Pamyat were.
One of the most incredible Jews I ever met was a not very religious old man named Micha Feldman. Micha organized the airlift of Ethiopian Jews in 1991, saving them from persecution and starvation. (Rav Moshe Feinstein endorsed the rescue of Ethiopian Jews before he was nifter). Micha also created an organization to help families of victims of terror. He didn’t discriminate between frum and frei. Micha worked with and for the government you curse, and he also thanked HKBH for the miracles he was involved in.
I could go on, but I think it is unlikely any of this will have an impact on you. You make and advocate seemingly false assumptions about other Jews. You will also have to answer for them before HKBH.
Zeeskite, you quote a sefer saying “mingling with the gentiles would only bring a catastrophe (I think he actually used the word shoah) of tremendous proportions.”
Seems to me that would have been a tremendous justification for establishing a Jewish state, regardless of how frum its leadership was, so long as it reduced or eliminated mingling with the gentiles.
Loyal Jew, hmm, now MO’s, who’s next? Chabad? Vishnitzers? Bobovers, Munkatchers? Maybe Yekkes? Maybe Galitzianers?
You know what? My g-grandfather(x8) R’Pinchas Haleivi Horowitz the Hafloh encountered many people – balabatim, heilige yidden, who were so taken aback by his capacity to be not only a Rav and Posek but also an adherent of chasidus that they wanted to kick him out of Frankfurt. He wasn’t yeshivish enough for them. Boruch Hashem people for whom the achdus and shleimus of am yisroel had meaning won out. May you be blessed with the insight of those people, who understood eilu voeilu divrei elokim chayim.
I wonder about those who trumpet Daas Torah on this issue, much as Rav Dov Lipmann has wondered. I will try to paraphrase some of his positions for you here. How can you go against the words of the Neviim, Geonim, achronim and recent gedolim?
in Vayikro 26:32 we are told that if bnei yisroel are in golus, eretx yisroel will remain desolate. Rabbeinu Bachya in his peirush on Bereishis 17:8 says that the reversal of that desolation indicates the end of golus. He cites Yechezkel perek 36, Yishayohu perek 51 and Amos perek 9. I would add Yirmiyohu perek 31. All describe the growth of trees and fruits in Israel as an indication of the atchalta degeula and the ikveso demeshicho.
Assuming clear pshat in Novi is not sufficient, the Gemoro in Sanhedrin 98a restates and clarifies this. And meshches Megilla 17b says that first there will be kibutz goluyos, then the flourishing of the fruits of Israel, and then biyas hamoshiach and the binyan bayis shlishi.
Rav Zvi Hirsch Kalischer in Shivat Zion, volume 2, pp. 51-52 quotes Rav Akiva Eiger that if we succeed in growing fruit in Israel then the final geulo is imminent.
Does someone want to argue that the land isn’t flowering and fruitful as never before? Did you know that Israel is the only country in the world that had more trees at the end of the 20th century than it did at the beginning?
Even if one looks at secular Zionists as wicked (and those I hope HKBH has rachamim on), Gemoro Sanhedrin 102b cites HKBH bringing nisim and geulos through some of the wicked kings of Malchus Yisroel. So why not the Zionists as his instruments as well? A lack of bitochon?
And who can ignore the Maharal, who says in Gvuros Hashem perek 18 that the moshiach will establish a new malchus, which will emerge from the first malchus that will precede it. This is so because malchus yisroel hakodosh sprouts from an unsanctified malchus.
More recently, the Tzitz Eliezer says that kibutz goluyos alone is the sign of the atchalto degeulo – 7:49.
Bottom line is that some of you take being mevazeh neviim, geonim, achronim, and gedolim with your assertions very lightly, and in the process you also insult 23000 Jews who gave their lives for am yisroel. Well, you will have to stand before the One who gives din vecheshbon and explain yourself. Good luck with that.
Csar, first of all, there was an issue of Mishpacha magazine back in 2006 that devoted a number of pages to the challenges of Diabetes for our community particularly.
Next, Check out the Encyclopedia Judaica entry on Sickness, which discusses higher rates of cardiopulmonary problems and diabetes among North African and Ashkenazi Jews.
Next, The statistical prevalence of diabetes among Jews was even noted more than 100 years ago in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia. See the entry on Diabetes Mellitus. It’s not a chidush.
Next, see Dr. Stephen Bloom of Imperial College, London, UK’s almost 30 years of work on the issues of heart disease, diabetes, and stroke incidence among Jews.
Next, check out the studies quoted in Koenig, McCullough, and Larsen’s book “The Handbook of Religion and Health”. It cites numerous studies which demonstrate statistics such as, to choose only one, an incidence of Coronary Artery Disease at 17% in Jewish males vs 7% in other populations.
The list goes on and on. It is something that has been recognized and studied for over 100 years, in Europe, North AMerica, and Israel. Why are you challenging the assertion? What is your agenda, Csar?
As much as I love all of these foods, most often they are made with ingredients and prepared in a way that is High fat, High cholesterol, High carbohydrate, High sodium and low in fiber. It is no coincidence that the levels of heart disease, diabetes, and similar issues are high in our community.
There are ways to make some of these foods healthier, making some of them vegetarian, or using less oil/fat, or simply eating them in moderation. But heimish foods are definitely a challenge.
Well, mdd, I said that I don’t have the chutzpah to presume to know what is right in the situation I brought. You obviously do presume to know. I will leave you to your presumption, but enough with setting up the straw man – I said I wasn’t determining halocho, so I wasn’t bringing emotions into a determination I wasn’t making.
(BTW, that’s kind of an amateurish method of discourse. You are a smart individual, I have seen it in other threads. You can do better than that)
Two more things. You said “Do not bring emotions and wrong ones at that…” While one can and should certainly assign right and wrong to actions, and indeed our value system is predicated on actions in the form of mitzvos and aveiros, it is much less useful to describe emotions as right and wrong – meaning it is way more useful to describe them as constructive or destructive, in that they help you to do mitzvos or they hinder you. But no one is so perfect that they don’t Feel emotions, destructive ones, that they have to overcome, and even if they end up doing the right thing, the initial emotion that stirred them to action may not have been constructive, but not necessarily wrong.
Lastly, I have to ask – have you ever asked a Rov a shailah about an issue involving sholom bayis, or extended family? Have you ever seen the delicate negotiations that sometimes happen with donors to shuls and schools when something is being donated and named? Have you thought that in the parsha of accepting or declining admitting a child to a school, in all of these issues, emotions of course play apart in the tshuvo or psak you are going to get. To assume otherwise as you did is a tendentious assertion.
OOmis, Though I think that indeed in this case the line of halachic determination is clear, and the posters you are discussing this with are quite knowledgeable on this issue, please do not feel you have to have a sha shtil mentality as some have suggested when there is a halachic discussion going on. You have a keen logical mind, as is clear from your insightful posts, and I understand what you are saying. Few of us are so perfect in our observance that we will never let feelings, or considerations like wanting our child to live rather than be killed, take priority in our choices. Not everyone is a Chana with her 7 sons, capable of dealing with such nisyonos like her.
Hundreds if not thousands of frum, chareidi parents, talmidei chachomim among them, Rabbis among them, found ways to save their children during the Shoah by getting them into convents and Catholic orphanages. That’s a yehareg v’al yaavor, and yet it was done, and lives were saved, and illuim and rabonim grew up from these kids.
Will you say they were wrong? Could I say they were wrong? Well, I don’t have the chutzpah to presume I know what is right in that situation. Maybe others do. Not me.
You won’t find any of the talmidei chachomim here – and they are talmidei chachomim, without question – considering this historical tidbit. Why? It’s outside the parsha of the beis medresh, and thus it isn’t right to let facts get in the way of a good and righteous svoro. That is where halocho, even halocho lemaaseh, intersects with realities that perhaps weren’t contemplated. Who knows how the individual will act, and who can say with confidence that they would follow the apparent halocho in such a situation? And yet you I think will understand very well how people might think in such a situation, so keep providing your wisdom.
The Expos may have picked up and left Montreal to Mikehall’s dismay, but the Blue Jays (1992 and 1993 World Champs) have been around in Toronto since 1977. All the way in 2012!!
c777 +1. I’ve been doing this for long enough to know all the tricks. I was doing counter-missionary work on Jewish forums back in 2000 when the internet was young, and I’ve probably tangled with hundreds of anti-Israel advocates over the years. This kind of thing doesn’t even merit another response, but I’m a sucker for calling out hypocrisy.
How about you, Sushe? Ever go out alone on a Wednesday night or Motzoei Shabbos? Ever? Are you going to stop and never do it again because it says clearly in Meseches Psachim daf 112 omud Beis not to? If meseches psachim isn’t Torah She beal peh, I don’t know what is. So if you haven’t followed this restriction and/or won’t commit here and now to follow it for the rest of your life, you too, sir, are a hypocrite.
Patri, Your position is that since such words were written by a Rabbinic Authority, who could be considered a godol (though the criteria is unclear, as someone might consider Rav Kook, Rav Herzog, Rav Goren, or Rav Shteinzaltz a godol, and others may not, and the same arguments have happened before (consider if Rav Yaakov Pollack considered Rav Avrohom Mintz a godol when he put him in cherem, but now we consider both to have been gedolim). They are the absolute and only derech to follow. Since you “accept what the quoted seforim state”, you have indeed taken a position. Your passive/aggressive “its them not me” approach is disingenuous, and not particularly effective as a rhetorical tool, either.
Your refusal to answer the question about the issue in Psachim I have now brought to your attention twice tells me that you agree with absolute authority when it suits your agenda, but not when it leads to the conclusion that you may have double standards…
As for “falsely wrapping 20th century beliefs”, I am sorry that you consider honor, respect, and partnership in a marriage to be false 20th century beliefs. another 20th century belief was totalitarianism. plug that into a household and you get a reasonable facsimile of what you are advocating.
The only apparent consideration is…Does he know he needs to stomp on her foot under the chupa?
How you reconcile your position, Patri, with your contradiction of three amoroim and a Rishon, leaving aside for a moment the obvious considerations of Hillel Hazoken and R’ Akiva, is beyond me. How you also ignore reality is less beyond me, because you aren’t the first and R’L will not be the last to do so. As to your solicitous concern for my future and my well being, I thank you, and suffice it to say yesh li al ma lismoch for myself in the future.
I am, though, curious that neither you nor any of those seeming to agree with you answered my question on absolute roboticism regarding mammrei gedolim that I asked Regarding Psachim 112 omud beis. Curious, but unsurprised, because I don’t really expect you to have an answer.
Patri, I am having a challenging time reconciling facts, evidence, experience, and knowledge with your assertions. My current issue is that YOU take the statement as absolute, and that is not something you can prove or justify. You, baruch hashem, are not divorced, and the segula has apparently worked for you. My ex walked around me seven times under the chuppah, and that was supposed to be a segula for her and I and the shlaimus of our marriage. Obviously, it didn’t work. I hope that it continues to work for you, but how do you know with absolute certainty that it will. If you had asked me a number of years ago if I would get divorced, I would have said no. Obviously things can change.
I am sorry that you cannot distinguish between a segula and a halocho. Perhaps when you have more experience in the ups and downs of a marriage, in raising kids, in having a job, owning a house, dealing with illness, bereavement, and other yisurin, you may look at things in a more realistic light. In the Chesed L’Avraham, you are taking an interpretive stance of a peirush on a part of the Tanach that was written in a complete allegory meikoroh, and you are adamant about its application in every instance. That is not a very discerning or mature approach. May HKBH bless you with wisdom.
BTguy, I am taking issue with the whole culture of wasted energy put into blame, fault, and the excuses that go along withthe search for them. These are words that have little place in getting things done. Either one takes responsibility for one’s actions, or one doesn’t. And no one else, even a spouse, or an ex spouse, can make that happen, except for the individual him or herself. No amount of judgement, finger pointing, blame, however well meant (though it most often isn’t well meant at all) will change that. So it is all useless prattle, and it accomplishes nothing important in either the salvage of a relationship or the building of strong foundations of a new one. If it isn’t about responsibility or about solutions it won’t be effective. And if it isn’t effective it is a waste of time and energy. That is why I take such issue with the language used, and not really about being neutral or gentle, though compassion is always a good idea.
So, with this absolute statement, even as it is taken from the words of a gadol,
“consequently there will be no bad happenings that will happen in that household because the Shechina is manifest in a house which is conducted according to the attribute of mercy.”
Are you telling me that there has never been a bad happening in the house of a Jew who dominates his wife? Ever? Even if once, you are conceding that the statement isn’t absolute. And if you don’t concede that even once it happened, you are unfortunately fooling yourself.
For goodness sake, no one is saying that a marriage always collapses with equal responsibility to husband and wife.
I am saying a couple of things. Almost anything can be repaired, if the person who did it takes responsibility, asks mechila, and changes his or her ways, and takes it upon themselves to do differently every day in the future, and if their partner can rebuild their trust.
Also, even in cases where one partner’s wrongdoing would seem overtly to have more to do with the marriage breakdown, that wrongdoing itself can have had causes wholly or partly dependent on the actions of the other spouse.
I am not justifying the actions or the lack of taking responsibility if one partner has done something irreparable and not owned up. I am saying that two mature adults in most situations will likely recognize that they both did things to harm the marriage and they both need to learn from it.
Patri, people will say or blame their ex, in my view and experience, because they are trying to justify their feelings or actions, and maybe because they are not ready to take their part of the responsibility.
And, very importantly, sometimes divorced people feel compelled to point the finger at someone else because of the judgmental and critical nature of those observers who are talking about them as if they had the plague. I have B’H avoided that, and will IYH continue to do so.
Patri, what is your fixation with blame? Either the individuals accept responsibility for their individual actions which have damaged the relationship and work to fix it and stay together, or they accept responsibility for their actions and, having tried unsuccessfully to fix the marriage, take what they learned about themselves and apply the lesson to their next relationship, or they refuse to take responsibility for themselves at all.
Are you rather concerned with the Yentas (both those in pants and those in skirts) trying to figure out who was “to blame” ex post facto? Frankly, it is no one’s business except perhaps someone contemplating marrying one or the other ex-spouse. Does every married person’s shtick and baggage get discussed, analyzed and condemned too, or is it only those who are divorced who are “blessed” with the “concerns” and the “observations”?
Communication. Trust. Partnership. Respect. Emotional Support. These are some things that are the foundations of a successful marriage. If they begin to weaken, the partners in the marriage need to take responsibility for strengthening them. If they disappear, the foundation of the marriage is unstable, and it will be washed away by the next storm, be it emotional, financial, child-related, bereavement, or something else.
Remember one more thing, though. A broken marriage is a terrible thing. It sucks the strength, confidence, money, faith, and energy out of both involved just when they – and their kids, if they have them – need these most. But a miserable marriage where both have tried and failed to fix things, or, worse, not tried at all, is simply like swimming in a pool of poison. at that point it is better for everyone involved to move on. And “blame” is the least important consideration.
Let me ask those being punctilious about the degree to which we need to take every svoro described, discussed, or suggested above as commendable; Have you ever walked alone on a Wednesday night or a Motzoei Shabbos? EVER? Even once? If you have, you have violated a restriction in the Gemoro, in Psachim 112 omud beis, (you can look it up)and you have endangered your life. Now, if you can tell me that you follow this instruction in the Gemoro, and have never, nor will you ever do so, I am prepared to say – you are right, I am wrong, and let the foot stomping begin. If not, however, don’t be a hypocrite.
Patri – let me give you a bit of advice. First, you use the words blame and fault. blame and fault are generally useless words, unless they are in the context between an individual and HKBH. Responsibility and solutions are more useful. Second, I don’t think, speaking from experience, you can speak “generally” about why marriages break down. Each individual and each couple has their own matziv and their own baggage that they bring in to the marriage, and the things that happen during a marriage can have an effect that doesn’t originate with one or the other of them (illness/death of a child/parent; money troubles; interfering friends/family, etc.), so each situation is different. Bottom line is that people have to take responsibility for their own actions, regardless of whether the other party does the same.
Hmmm…Just using your logic, cheftze. It sounds so nice to find an achron who agrees with (what are apparently) your feelings about dominating your wife as a method of harmony in marriage, but, like you did, I questioned how someone in later doros could question those in earlier ones. I found that, like you, I had ample support for my position, only mine was sourced from Mishna, Gemoro, and kisvei rishonim.
I guess what is good for the goose is not good for the gander…
Oh, and you are inclining me to look at mochoh timche’s posts in a more positive light. At least he was saying the placement of a foot COULD have an INFLUENCE on the progress of a marriage that could last for decades with all of its ups and downs. You seem to be advocating that a few seconds of stepping on toes WILL and SHOULD be the DETERMINANT in the face of much halachic opinion to the effect that such domination is at wide variance with halocho and yesodei hatoroh.
Well, Cheftze, You may be right about a CR denizen’s capacity to argue with an authority from an earlier generation, but I’d question anyone who argues with Hillel Hazoken – who clarifies veohavto loreacho komocho as meaning that which is hateful to you should not do to another – and unless it is ok to all that the woman should dominate the man (also unhealthy), these opinions would seem to argue with not only a tanna, but perhaps the most important tanna of the entire mishnaic era.
Another of our greatest tannoim was Rabbi Akiva, and as you know we are now in a period of mourning for 24,000 of his students, who died, we are told, because they didn’t show proper honor to others. How is dominating a wife honoring her?
For further reference you can look at the instruction of R’Yehuda Ibn Tibon, a Rishon, to his son on how he should treat his wife – I won’t go into detail, but it is a clear tzivui to treat her with honor, respect, and appreciation. As he said, to act otherwise is contemptible.
You may also want to look at gemoro gittin, daf 6 omud beis, beginning with rav chisda’s warning about how to treat your household, or Bava Metzia daf 59 omud alef for similar positions from two other amoroim.
So Cheftze, to conclude, I’m basing my position on tannoim, amoroim, and rishonim… How about you?
Actually, Itchesrulik (gut Voch, by the way) Rav Eliyahu Hakohen wrote midrash Talpiot, which was the original citation, as a compendium of midrashim and comments based on midrashim.
Mocho Timche, I think we can all agree that siyata dishmaya from the brocho of a godol to a good person is an incentive to shlaimus. That makes sense. It is unfathomable to compare that kind of syata dishmaya to putting one’s foot over that of his kallah for the purpose of dominating her in the matrimonial home.
My father z’l used to recall an old saying from one of his rebeim, he who takes every midrash literally is a tipesh, and he who takes no midrash literally is also a tipesh. The trick is to know which is which. I think this one falls into the category of not literally, because if any of those discussing it had actually any experience of real life, real ups and downs in a marriage, and real relationships that you need to actually work at every single day of your marriage, they wouldn’t waste their time worrying about dominating their wife. They would work on mutual respect, interdependence, and building a good home for kids. And even when you try it doesn’t always work. The whole concept being suggested is mind bogglingly obtuse.
You want to protest? protest about poverty in the frum community, and its real causes. Then do something to alleviate it. Protest about Derech Eretz in our schools and on our streets, then be an exemplar of it. Protest about the chasm of misunderstanding and distrust between the ashkenazi and sefardi chareidi communities. Protest about discrimination and the need to be mekarev every yiddishe neshoma, and the fact that even though the kiruv movement started in the chareidi community, it is often impossible to marry off a child to an ffb chareidi family if you are a baal tshuva. Any and all of these are situations where YOUR complacency, rather than the actions that you suspect maybe, possibly might happen between two people in full public view, can actually be overcome and the situation improved.
And, once again, the zealots have insulted the last two or three generations of gedolim who tirelessly worked to build mosdos to teach our kids proper midos and behavior by assuming none of that teaching actually meant anything, and no one educated in a yeshiva or seminary in the last 50 years will know how to behave in public. They have also just told generations of parents that they have sent millions of dollars spent on that education down the drain, because cholilo v’chas someone should actually be put in a situation where the things they learned should actually be put into practice, rather than avoided meikoro.
The point is to act with menschlichkeit and tznius on the street, on a bus, in a store, not to remove yourself from the street, the bus, or the store. Its like saying – best not to go to shul this shabbos because I am afraid I’m going to talk during davening, so if I don’t go, I won’t talk. Ridiculous.
What the article doesn’t mention is that the school encouraged the students to join facebook so that they could vote for it in the Kohl’s competition last year for a significant grant for the school. It seems arbitrary but legitimate to require them to shut down their pages, but utterly wrong to fine them for having them.
akuperma, I don’t always agree with you, but you are right on on this one. As Rabbi Michael Skobac, one of the leaders of Jews for Judaism out it, we are a rebuke to Christians. after all, we are the “experts” when it comes to messiahs. We introduced the concept to the world, and as long as we reject their understanding of it we are rejecting their raison d’etre, their reason for being. As for the muslims, again, our mere existence is a rebuke to their contention that we “corrupted” the Torah and killed the neviim, and that we didn’t accept their “last” prophet. Also, in the last 100 years, their countries have suffered humiliating defeats one after the other, some at the hands of the Jews. They don’t do well with humiliation.
Those of you who feel a compulsion to bash M.O. communities or practice, does your self righteousness feed hungry children? does it keep the lights on in yeshivos? does it protect your children studying in Israel? Does it help YOUR yiras shomayim vyiras cheit to perceive others as less than you? Does it serve some deep emotional need to put down someone else to make you feel good? Because that is how it looks and sounds. The amount of money going to Chareidi institutions from people who are M.O. and not frum at all is astronomical. If you aren’t prepared to look at them as a Yissachar – Zevulun partner, stop taking their money and their support! Put your own children’s lives on the line to protect your communities!
Having a “holier than thou” attitude doesn’t actually make you holier.
Does your Daas Torah really tell you that you have to denigrate someone who has a shitah that is different or less machmir? If it does, I hate to break it to you, but that’s not Daas Torah.
BT Guy, I wonder if they have lost/are losing respect/admiration for Torah, or if they have lost respect and admiration for community and leadership. I can tell you that my experience discussing this phenomenon with people in the Chareidi/Yeshivish world puts people in four camps.
1. Those who don’t see any fundamental problems and don’t want to hear about problems and challenges, because it’s all in the hands of the Aibishter and they have ‘al ma lismoch’ in their lives and don’t want or need to question. Many of these people are the happy plurality of Chareidi populations, and likely represent a majority of chareidi and yeshivish communities. In a way, these people have a pure emunah, but they are also sometimes the ones who will ignore or deflect issues of abuse or crime or simple lack of menschlichkeit in the community because they can’t deal with the thought that someone in our community could possibly be doing such things.
2. Those who see the beauty of a Torah lifestyle, but who are upset, even disgusted by action condoned or ignored by some in positions of leadership, who don’t subscribe to the increasing kano’us they are seeing, and are worried about their institutions and their children in a less wholesome community than it could be. These individuals maintain both the lifestyle and the emunah in Torah and HKBH, but have had their dependence on leadership rattled, and their understanding of what Daas Torah means shaken. They don’t want to rock the boat, though, so they quietly live with their disappointment.
3. Those who can no longer see the beauty of the Torah lifestyle they grew up in, and have lost not only their respect for our community’s leadership and institutions, but also believe that these problems indicate fundamental flaws in the Torah way of life that they can not resolve or reconcile. Nonetheless, because of their spouse or their kids or simply because they don’t know any other way, they remain in the community, doing lip service in public but feeling nothing inside. I don’t think they are “orthoprax” because they want to deceive everyone, I think they are orthoprax because, fundamentally, they are afraid of the implications of change.
4. Those who either leave or are forced out of the community because they can not or do not want to fit within it, who sometimes quietly disappear, but who sometimes make a spectacular noise and likely a huge chilul hashem on the way out, like the two recent cases that have been in the news.
There are also those – a fair number, I expect, who come to a point of compromised emunah not because of the shortcomings of the community, but because of their own personal issues, be they familial, financial, emotional, or otherwise. I have a lot of empathy for these individuals and can only hope they find peace within themselves, as that might lead them back to stronger emunah.
It’s a Bubbe Maase.
So, Hershi, are you saying to the descendants of the Maharal, Chavas Yoir, Rashi, the Falks, the Spira’s, Lurias, Treivishes oh, and by the way, the Rema who was also a descendant of these women, and assorted Horowitzes, Halberstams, and dozens of other families have a mesorah of learned women respected by their male relatives who were Rishonim and Acharonim are wrong to be inspired by them and should rather be ashamed that they were involved in tiflus?
Please, be clear. It is obvious you have an insight that Rabbeinu Tam and R’YOsf hagodol Treivish overlooked. Please, share with us.
Since the mods are hemming and hawing about posting what I wrote earlier, I will modify it slightly to take out what might be questionable.
Loyal – that would be a tremendous loss to the gene pool, then. My ancestor Alvina bas Miriam bas Rashi (also daughter of the Rivan) taught halacha and minhagim to her cousin the Ri m’Dampierre. Her cousin Chana bas Yocheved was quoted by Rabeinu Tam, her brother. later, R’Yosef Hagodol Treivish’s wife was well known for her insights in gemoro. Another ancestor, Mriam Spira/Luria, is described by both R’Yochanan Luria and R’Yoselin of Rosheim as giving gemoro shiurim from behind the mechitzah. Rebetzin Bayla Falk, daughter of R’Yiroel Idelish, was described as learned and a bas Torah by rabonim of the day. The grandaughter of the Maharal, who was also the grandmother of the Chavas Yoir, Chava Bacharach is described in Chavas Yoir as a boki in halocho, an excellent teacher, and an expert on Rashi and Targum.
These are only a few examples. There is no reason to denigrate their devotion to Torah. What was clearly and evidently not only allowed but encouraged by many rishonim and achronim should be praised.
And as for shiduchim, I am proud to bear the lineage of many of these women. So are my sons and daughters.