The notion that the farmers, masons, merchants, tradesmen, shepherds and all other Jews living in the times of Tanach and in the times of the second bais hamikdosh who put down their pitchforks and picked up a spear when necessary were all learning as their primary occupation is foolishness. We have an entire corpus of halocho l’maiseh based on the understanding that people worked, traded, ate, drank, traveled and got into disputes every day during the normal course of their lives. What need for the halochos of a shor tam or muad if there are no career shepherds? What need for the halochos of boundaries, of open pits, of orlah if there are no career farmers?

The notion is LUDICROUS.

If halocho doesn’t convince you, the archeological record does not sustain the notion either. Eretz Yisroel was a pastoral and agricultural society, with no evidence that it was filled with kollels rather than farmers and shepherds (of whom there is evidence).

If that doesn’t convince you, maybe think of this. Earlier this week I was in an antique coin shop and I bought an excellent example of a prutah from the time of the Chashmonai kings, Probably Yochanan Hyrcanus, about 180 years before the destruction of the bais hamikdosh. (lots of these around, not very expensive – about $20.) I wanted to own a physical manifestation of a Jewish sovereign entity from 2150 years ago. That coin says a lot. It says that there was an entire society – trade, taxes, military, craftsmen, healers, anyone who might need to be paid – who were not learning as a primary vocation, but who would value the authority of the Anshei Kneses Hagedolah because they gave rules for living a practical halachic life. If they were told by the anshei kneses hagedolah – don’t work, don’t serve, don’t build, just learn, then (a) we would have had no need for the laws of the time that crystallized in the mishna, and (b) the society at the time would have become completely dysfunctional. Without Jewish farmers working Jewish land, people would starve. Without skilled craftsmen there would be no buildings in Yerushalayim. and so on. The Anshei Kneses Hagedolah knew that a Jewish society needed people to work as a primary vocation, so it interpreted and created laws for them to do so.

If you believe in yeridas Hadoros, and even if you don’t, who can now argue with the Anshei kneses hagedolah? You, Hello99? You, Toi? You, DaasYochid? Jews need to work AND learn. Jews need to defend themselves AND learn. If strict conditions need to be emplaced, then do so. Create a Hesder +++. If new streams for national service will better fit Chareidi needs, then suggest some! The response from the chilonim will be vastly different if there is an acknowledgement that simply butting heads is not an answer.

No reason to choose one or the other. Do both. That is the Hesder model, and it works.

The senior Rov of the Ger chasidus where I live told of the experience of the Yom Kippur War in Eretz Yisroel. First, because of the imminent danger, they had a radio set up at the back of the shul with someone posted to listen for call-ups. And as many in the kehila were in the IDF’s chevra kadisha unit (BTW, for those of you who look at the IDF as Tamei, how many militaries have a chevra kadisha made up of chassidim?)They were in shul with their uniforms and left to go to the front the whole day and evening as the call up codes were broadcast.

No one had the chutzpah to throw stones at the Gerrer chasidim leaving in cars, taxis and buses as they could to get to the front.

The approach of these truly ehrlich individuals is being an am kodosh and still being responsible citizens of a Jewish state. Something seems to have been lost in the years since 1973.

Way to miss the point, MDD. I’m talking about motivation and comparative relevance and outrage. You are bringing rayos from the Ramo to contradict my assertion of what is A’Z. apples and oranges. No addressing of my central point, either. Ah, well…

mdd, and others, I’m not covering up for baalei averah. Their whole point, in this pride business, is to dafka NOT cover up. They don’t need or care for my “defense”, as you portray it.

I’m not arguing that it isn’t an issur. It is. I’m not arguing that it is not as severe an issur as other dinei nefashos. It is. If I gave that impression, I retract it.

What I am decrying is the reaction of the frum oilem to this while it ignores other problems closer to home. If the Torah describes business corruption with the same loshon as this, and it does, WHY IS THAT TRANSGRESSION ALL BUT IGNORED, while this becomes a cause celebre? And I might add – it is the secular law and the secular freedoms that are being criticized, the same ones that protect us from persecution. We do not live in a halachic state, and moreover we are not discussing the halachic ramifications of this activity – they are perfectly clear. We ARE discussing support for it in the public realm, and I am raising the issue of the fascination the frum oilem has with this issue to the detriment of addressing far more pertinent and pressing issues described with the same condemnatory loshon in the Torah.

And for those who like mdd say that it is because this is more chomur and incurs the death penalty that they deal with it more prominently, I have to ask – Are you adressing chilul shabbos (by non jews, no less, at stores like target or walmart) in the same way, or even BY Jews? It is dinei nefashos, and it happens EVERY WEEK right in front of you, so why aren’t you out there protesting or boycotting?

What about palmreaders and fortunetellers? also chayav misah. Are you addressing their transgressions? Have you tracked down every yid who ever hit a parent? Cursed a parent? Do you spend as much energy confronting the Jews for Jesus crew, who are definitely chayyav misha and are active in our communities? (I know that I do, this one especially). How about those who flout the authority of a beis din? Devarim yud ches calls for the death penalty. What about protesting in front of catholic churches, which transgress the first of the shevah mitzvos bnei noach?

All of these are mideoraisah. I am not even going to get into derabonon.

There is at least one reason you don’t, and that is that you live in a country with rational laws and you respect dina demalchusa dina.

So if you are not a hypocrite about what it is about this particular transgression that makes it a priority, it must be something else. Is it the way the Torah describes it, as a toeivah, an abomination? If so, I ask you to address my original question about other things described the same way.

Or maybe, just maybe, it isn’t that either, it is rather social and political motivation that impels you – and that is your prerogative, I won’t criticize you for it. Just don’t wrap it up in Torah to justify yourself.

As someone in this position right now, I concur with Health’s recommendation, and as much as we would like to look at a potential spouse with rose coloured glasses, we have to be a bit more realistic than that about their issues. but I would also go one further, and perhaps more importantly do the personal cheshbon to see where I could have done things differently and change myself or at least be aware of my own shortcomings going in to a new relationship

MDD, please, tell me, do you daven a different R’ Yishmoel Omer than I do every morning? Because my understanding is that when the same loshon is used in separate places you make a gezeira shova. It is poshutMaybe instead of looking to improve already high-standard tznius every time there is a tragedy in the community and we are looking for reasons why, we should instead look to see how our community is dealing with the Toeivah of corrupt business practices.

MorahRach, didn’t run to do research. Was already known to me. And I don’t have a bone to pick with you, sorry I gave that impression.

Also, unlike some other topics, where my feelings are very strong, I don’t have any “skin in the game” on this one, as where I live there are no Target stores (will be in a few months, though), and I’m not up in arms about the Pride agenda one way or another. My perspective on it is that IF we want to enjoy the freedoms and tolerance that a democratic state gives us, we have to abide by its laws and assume that everyone deserves the same freedom and tolerance as we do, even those whose lifestyle we reject.

But I am certainly against Pride parades all of which, from what I can tell, are simply a public display of hedonism and half clad celebrants (or less), much less about identity and much more about flaunting public undress, drunkenness and lascivious behaviour that I would find incompatible with use of public space regardless of the orientation of the marchers.

Niazik, that wasn’t my point, and you know it! My point is, torah describes something as Toeivah, you have something against toeivah, you do something about it. Fine. But why such vigilance on this toeivah, and none on the one kind of toeivah that I guarantee more businesses are guilty of simply by virtue of being businesses, not just “supporting” a different toeivah. (btw, the issur is in the act, not even in identifying oneself as such). So you are making a case for boycotting a store that makes a political statement of support for the rights of those who contravene an issur for Jews and likely (shevah mitzvos bnei noach probably applies) non Jews too.

I guess my point is that your choice, which is personal and you are certainly entitled to it, is a political and social one, not a religious one. Don’t fool yourself into justifying your actions religiously, because halocho doesn’t require you to do this.

Further, my other point is that you are displaying a lack of consistency if you are using Torah terms like toeivah. If the torah description is what motivates you, act likewise towards other toeivahs. if you are motivated by your social and political perspective, say so, and I would have no taine about inconsistency or hypocrisy.

Claude Lanzmann made an incredible film called Shoah in 1985. it is over 9 hours long, an oral history of sorts, all testimonies of people who were there. It has been acclaimed worldwide. i saw much of it, parts in different languages, subtitled in english.

So I’ve had a chance to look in sefer otzar hagedolim, and the author, r’ naftoli yaakov hakohen, brings that he is mentioned in tosfos in the following places: yevamos 57, menuchos 88, krisus 14, yoma 48, Ri miParis quotes him regarding seder pesach in brachos 31, and among others Rav Yehudah Hachosid (an ancestor of mine) was a talmid of his. there are also a couple of other mentions in tosfos such as nidah 36, but apparently these were to’us sofrim, and a different R’ yom tov was intended.

Shlishi – “Frum Yidden need to keep a distance from non frum (even family) and goyim.”

And so, the heilige godol has paskened that Rav Noach Weinberg, zt’l and all of his followers; The Lubavitcher Rebbe, zt’l and all his followers; R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt’l, and all his followers; R’ Aryeh Levin, zt’l and all who were inspired by him, and many more gedolim, and every single frum Jew involved in kiruv, and every single Baal Tshuva who has not cut off his or her family is transgressing by not keeping “a distance”. Feh.

As for the goyim – Dovid Hamelech and Shlomo Hamelech not only used non Jews in their armies (as did pretty much every king of Yehuda, both those who were considered holy (Asa, Yehoshaphat, CHizkiyahu, etc.) and those who were not. And Shlomo Hamelech even brought non Jews from Chiram Hamelech in Tzor to help build the Beis Hamikdosh. Numerous Rishonim worked closely with and for Non Jewish princes and kings in pre-reconquista Spain.

DO Frum Jews need to maintain their standards of observance wherever they go, YES! even at a BBQ with family, and it is 100% the parent’s responsibility to ensure that. If they can’t or won’t take that responsibility, they shouldn’t go. But they can, and they should. Do frum Jews need to maintain their standards of observance when they go out into the workforce, and encounter non-Jews? YES! and do you know what? when it comes to things like kosher food for meetings or trade shows, my experience has been that non-Jews have been very respectful and incredibly accommodating.

Of course, one would actually have to be out in the workplace earning a living to discover that.

Frum yidden need to understand that HKBH put them here to have a hashpo’oh on other Jews, and on the whole world, not to hide themselves away, squeeze their eyes shut, mumbling “go away, go away, go away!”

Hmm. I just heard him in person speaking a month ago, and he spoke (among other things) about the huge value and impact of Torah for the Israeli and Jewish future. Maybe it has something to do with the audience. Maybe he is exactly what he claims to be, a secular Jew with a respect for tradition. I don’t understand the surprise or the disrespect.

Csar, Good afternoon. I guess Rav Kook was a kofer, then. I guess R’Shlomo Zalman Auerbach was one too. And many others, who recognized the role of the state in the context of the geulah, and talked or wrote about it publicly. I am sure your gadlus protects you from the consequences of maligning, by association, these gedolim.

You see, Shmoel, the point is my zeal is reserved for not telling others what to do, not causing others to come to reject those and that which reject them, and for recognizing that I personally have much to do and to learn to become the Yid I aspire to be. That is my zeal. and I leave judgement up to HKBH.

Baal Sechel, your answers prove my point. the question isn’t about taking away the zchus of giving tzedaka from the man who has unfiltered internet; there are lots of places for him to give. the question is about you, your capacity to exclude him from something while being prepared to take his money. What does your sechel tell you? Mine tells me not to be a hypocrite.

I do appreciate that you advocate for yashrus and ehrlichkeit in business. That is admirable. My point was perhaps more aimed at Loyal Jew, Tomche, and the others who were not simply defending the Beer Moshe, but were rather advocating an approach, visible in a number of posts on a number of topics, which I am troubled by. picking and choosing who to exclude and upon what criteria is a slippery slope. As I wrote earlier, the Torah describes illegitimate business activities as a toevah. And yet the perception of some is that it is more important to exclude someone based on a modern psak than on an issur toevah mideoraysah.

Baal Sechel, I appreciate that you attempted to address some of my issues and questions, but I think that you completely missed the point. Yiddishkeit is not all and only about the minutiae of the interpretation or application of the S’A. In fact, you seem to have lost touch with even the halachos of interpretation we say every morning as described by Rabi Yishmoel. You obviously have trouble with the concept of gezeirah shova, which is what I brought in with the Debreciner’s psak on shaving. I didn’t discuss television, so I don’t know why you brought that up. It was another poster.

And you missed most of my other points and questions. You didn’t answer the last one, which is about whether you would allow a school or any mosdos you are involved in to accept tzedoko from someone who you wouldn’t allow to daven for the omud because of unfiltered internet. Let me tell you, there would be precious little funding for many institutions if they had the courage of their convictions and refused to be hypocrites about this. It’s not a question, Baal Sechel, that you can look in the S’A for an answer to. It has to come from your neshoma and your moral, ethical compass. Ideally that compass is guided by Pirkei Ovos, or perhaps by the Rambam, but it is your conscience I am asking about, and it is my point that without the neshoma’s input, the S’A is strong and relevant, but ultimately sterile.

You also did not address other issues I asked about. Did you know that in devorim 25:16 being unfair in business practices is called a toevah – same as mishkav zochor! And yet, I do not see or hear you or anyone else finding or trumpeting a psak that such people can’t be a shliach tzibur. Why? Why the silence about this but chas vecholilo he has unfiltered internet? One may perceive it as a terrible sin, but it is not a toevah mideoraisa. It would seem an obvious kal v’chomer that this problem should be addressed with way, way more priority than unfiltered internet. And I’m not even going to get started on issues of abusers. No need, my point is clear, as is your silence.

The truth is, you are conditioned to think about your Yahadus in only one way. Your perspective isn’t bad or evil, I don’t even think it is ill intentioned. But it is incomplete. It ignores the fact that it encourages hypocrisy and double standards. It ignores the fact that we were given the Torah at Sinai not just as 600,000 individuals, but also as one nation. I don’t expect you to come around and agree with everything I say, but I hope that you can be honest with yourself, and perhaps open your eyes a bit.

Also Tomche and Baal Sechel, I’d like to hear your answer to this question. THe Debreciner Rov Also made a public psak That it is absolutely forbidden to shave and he can find no grounds for being lenient. (if the mods will allow, the psak is here http://www.koshershaver.info/pdf/debretziner1.pdf)

So please, tell me. There is no more obvious place to look to see if daas torah is being followed than at one’s face. So which one of you will tell R’Aharon Lichtenstein that he can’t daven for the omud regularly? R’Paysach Krohn? hundreds of other gedolim and talmidei chachomim??

But why wouldn’t you? The Debreciner said!!!! (and I have no issue with the Debreciner Rov, he just happened to be the posek you cited).

But you wouldn’t, would you. You would be embarrassed. Perhaps a tiny scintilla of that embarrassment might apply to excluding someone else, not nearly their stature. And then you will have learned, for a moment, about kovod habriyos, and about how to treat another Jew.

Wow. a life without finding someone to exclude from something must be a life not worth living. Is this what yiddishkeit in our time has come to? Let’s figure out who we can’t associate with, who we can’t listen to, who we can’t eat by, who’s children we can’t let into our schools, who we must shun or banish from our kehilos? Its all we have to think about and worry about.

I’m going to concentrate on making my own tfilos more meaningful, my kavonoh more perfect, and I’ll do my best to bring someone who doesn’t usually daven at all in to experience something Jewish.

You know what happens to a yiddishkeit with all the life, the meschlichkeit, the bringing in of brothers and sisters sucked out of it? It withers and dies like a dried husk of corn. It blows away in the wind. It shrivels and decomposes. My yiddishkeit has room for those who are less than perfect.

Do you know who the first one to claim that observing Torah was all or nothing was? It was the meshumad Paul of Tarsus, who more than anyone else made Christianity into what it has become, and because of whom millions of Jews died. Those who seek to exclude exclude exclude based on this or that imperfection of observance are following the same road.

Having just gone through a divorce, I’m positioned to know the implications of either perspective. I agree with Tomche that the prenup he describes is hugely problematic. Not something I would have signed. On the other hand, When I got married I signed a prenup that simply committed me (and her) not to use the get as leverage in case the marriage broke down. I had no problem signing it, and in fact was prepared to do it even in advance of the civil side of things. The thought of using it as leverage was simply not something I could conceive of doing.

gavra, a very astute comparison, but I guess we’ll never know. I think that part of the feel of desolation in the book was that so many Jews had “given up”. One could hope that it might have been otherwise in different circumstances. BTW it was a well written but very uncomfortable book to read.

No doubt we’d all be better off spiritually and physically sitting down to an Olympic sized Cholent and fressing. Sport? Exercise? Feh.

Seriously, though, I agree with the OP that there are too many scantily clad women running around (literally!) at the summer Olympics. That’s why I like the Winter Olympics (except for figure skating (double Feh!!). At least everyone is all bundled up, and you can’t tell a Frank from a Francine.

No, really seriously. I’m disgusted by the movement – from founder Avery Brundage’s antisemitism, to their kowtowing to Adolf Hitler (YSHvZ), to their lax security at Munich, and their ongoing refusal to offer even a minute to honour the murdered Israeli athletes. Add to that the pritzus, and beyond the issurim, it is feeding into a culture of commercialism and personality, that isn’t healthy for anyone, let alone frum Yidden.

Finally, there is so much more to do in London in the summer that frum people can appreciate and enjoy, and the community of Golders Green is so welcoming (5 shabbes dinner invitations 30 seconds after walking into the shteeble friday night many years ago when I was there). It would be a shame to waste one’s time there watching events that could be seen on (gasp!) the telly if one was so inclined, rather than all else London has to offer.

Csar, checked the story with a Talmid Muvhak of R’ Yaakov last night. True.

Torah Umada…..could lead to dancing. 🙂