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I’m not saying he must be listened to by all. I’m not saying his hashkafa is for all. But I am saying that being motzi shem ra on him is wrong, and is unfortunately all too common a tactic used by the zealots among us to stifle any perspective that isn’t THEIR perspective.
Rabbi Lipman is a frum Jew. He has disagreements with other frum Jews on a number of issues, especially the assault and insult of frum 8 year old girls trying to get in to their frum school in their own neighborhood by vile people who identify themselves with what I think you are calling the “Torah community”.
He got smicha from R’Yaakov Weinberg zt’l. He went to Ner. He was one of the founders of the kollel in Cincinnati. His writings are published by Feldheim and Targum, his divrei Torah and insights have been used by both the OU and Aish. He spent 6 further years in chinuch before making aliyah. He teaches in a seminary that I am familiar with that has brought more young women closer to frumkeit than your unwarranted exclusivism ever will.
Is he a perfect individual? Undoubtedly he is not. But maybe some of his criticism – or most of it – is well founded. Evidently musmachei Ner Yisroel and marbitzei Torah don’t meet you sniff test.
Shlishi – Prior to 1939, Hitler (Y’S)was in power FOR SIX YEARS. He had written Mein Kampf in 1925 and 1926, so it was 14 years since his hatred and his plans were public.
Winston Churchill started to warn about a resurgent Germany in the early 1930’s.
Ze’ev Jabotinsky was talking about this to everyone he could reach in the mid 1930s and by 1936 he was bringing his “Evacuation Plan” to the public.
It is 100% accurate to say that the Western nations clsoed their doors. At the Evian conference in 1938, they made it very clear that they wouldn’t even try. The Immigration minister in my own country, to its shame, said of Jewish immigration from Europe “None is too many.”
However, it is completely inaccurate to say that no one saw it coming. If Ze’ev Jabotinsky could, so could the gedolim of the time. They didn’t.
Absence of facial expression or reading social queues even at an early age may indicate the presence of an autism spectrum disorder (could be very mild/high function) such as Aspergers. Does the child seem to be particularly bright?
Have we really descended to the level of “Oh, Yeah? Well, My Rov is bigger than YOUR Rov!!” “We’ll See! MY Rov will make a psak that makes YOUR Rov look like a…a… Modern Orthodox Zioni Feminist!”
Seriously????
shmoel – wow. I guess New Paris, Indiana is such a huge place of Torah because of the gemaras and sforim burnt in Paris in 1242.
Or maybe The New Madrid Fault in Missouri and surrounding states will be the place Jews congregate in because of the numerous auto da fe’s that took place in Madrid.
Maybe New Hebron Missipi will give rise to a new yeshiva like the one my great uncle shmuel went to in Hebron that was attacked in 1929.
You have opened up a whole new world of interpretation to me. Thanks. One question, though. Is that Daas Torah? What do the gedolim say?
If you think that attitudes on Jewish sovereignty among everyone – gedolim and non gedolim alike – was not impacted by the Shoah, you are being foolish.
The destruction of 2/3 of the Jewish people in Europe was ample reason for anyone to take a second look at their rationales. Any one who didn’t consider the change in circumstances post war would be like someone who stubbornly determined to continue walking as if he had two legs when one had been amputated.
Shlishi, R’ Yom Tov of Joigny (a talmid of Rabbeinu Tam, writer of Omnam Keyn, Tosafist, Rishon) found circumstances in 1190 where he determined that suicide was not only mutar, but obligatory. He gave the psak to the Jews of York with him in Cliffords Tower, then he killed his wife and daughters and then himself.
I’m not giving my opinion, nor do I have one of my own; I am merely telling you that there is a clear and well known occasion – during a pogrom, no less – of a rishon sanctioning suicide.
Health, it aint going to work. Beyond the mesorah, beyond the sources, I have seen nisim gluyim with my own eyes. Believe what you want. Don’t fool yourself into thinking other opinions are unwarranted. As I’ve said before, I’ll daven for you, and as you’ve said before you’ll daven for me. In the end we won’t know until the nistar is fully nigleh.
Eilu voEilu divrei Elokim Chayim.
It means that when there are sources in our mesorah for differing opinions on a matter of halachic or hashkafic importance, both opinions have merit, and both should be respected as within the bounds of halocho.
The “we” who can’t accept it do not include me. The “we”, it seems to me, are those who say – your source is not from our mesorah, or it is a minority opinion, or it is not valid today, or we are more machmir than that in our community, or, and this is the best one, it’s against “daas Torah”.
They are, in essence, arrogating for themselves the right to tell other Jews how to interpret Torah, no matter how well informed or sourced the opinion is.
Why?
Well, if I am going to be don l’kaf zchus, I’d say they were putting up gedorim around Torah, protecting what they see as the honour of their leadership, and guiding other Jews away from sin. Very noble.
But if I am going to look at human nature, it seems that this is about power, and nothing else. If halachic and hashkafic decisions can be sourced from those who they see as unfit, or sources they have rejected, their power to influence an increasingly broad section of the frum and traditional Jewish world is weakened. If so, their institutions are weakened, their fundraising is impacted, and their control over everything from their kids to their wives to the magazines in frum households to the local vaad hakashrus is more tentative.
Now lets look at the other side.
There is an inherent handicap to accepting that a stricter interpretation is justified, so it is rare that those who are less strict challenge the justification of those who are more strict. The reverse is not true.
What further weakens those who are less machmir is the fact that some people on the fringes abuse the concept of eilu voeilu, considering some things that are violations of halocho from ALL points of view to be OK.
Health, you derided my perspective by asking “How are you so sure that it’s the beginning of the Geulah? Are you a Novi?”
I gave multiple sources from gemoro and achronim and more current authorities. There are many many more, and having already given these clear references, if you want more, go find them yourself. I answered your question.
But that’s not good enough.
With nothing but your own supposition and interpretation, and your “most gedolim” broken record assertion, you dismiss clear and valid reasons for my belief. Note – we’re not going to know exactly who is right until the geulah moves into its next stages, but you asked me how I’m so sure. I am because of my mesorah and because of these and other sources. They don’t work for you? Its your loss. But your question was answered.
SHlishi, you are right about that line. and here is the official reason for the current wording, from the WZO and the Jewish Agency who made the change.
“When the Jewish people pray their eyes, hearts and prayers are directed toward Israel and Jerusalem. For many long painful years, the land of Israel was in the hands of foreigners. The Jews who lived in Palestine were not free. Yet their hope for freedom and independence never died. The second stanza of the Hatikva recalls the undying hope of Jews through the generation, Jews who lived in other countries and Jews who had remained in Palestine.”
Oh, yeah, lots of apikorsus there.
Also, when Imber wrote, there were few Jews in Israel. When the change was made, there was a substantial Jewish settlement, so going from “lashuv El Eretz Avotenu” for those who werent there, to Lihyot am chofshi for those who were, is a reasonable update.
Cherrybim, who said he was a role model? I just gave a number of proofs that the slander about the anthem and the poem was a lie, and you are building a straw man about his character. Poor debating skills.
I wanted to add, for those who continue to lie and spread falsehood about Hatikva, one more obvious Torah reference, though there are several more in the extended poem.
Od lo avdah tikvatenu is a direct reference to the words of Yechezkel 37:11 Yovshu Atzmoseinu v’avda tikvosenu, to which HKBH responds that he will open their graves and bring them back to artzienu hakedosha.
One more nail in the coffin of the lie and slander being spread by dishonest people about Hatikva.
Cherrybim – If you, like your confederates feel so confident about slandering Imber’s poem, you might have thought to read THE WHOLE THING, since the anthem is only the first two stanzas.
In it you will find a few more references that completely destroy your hypothesis. Imber wrote in the 8th stanza “ki od yerachmeinu keyl zoeim”, that HKBH, though wrathful would still have mercy on us, and in the 10th stanza “Rofecha Hashem, Chochmat Levavo” HKBH is your (the Jewish people’s) healer, the wisdom of your heart.
Why on earth would there be so many references to Hashem and Jewish themes in an anthem meant as a tool for atheist zionist annihilators of Torah?
Oh. yeah. Because its NOT!
THe chofshi min hamitzvos is an interjection done to slander the writer and users of the anthem. Please provide a source where Imber says that this is what he means – and considering all of the other references above, that would be impossible, because of the overwhelming evidence from his own words in the rest of the poem that it is a LIE.
Itchesrulik, not that I am aware of, though he did confer with Emperor Ferdinand and his scientists before he had a falling out and was imprisoned by Ferdinand.
Tell you what, Choppy. You do 1/4 the research on your ancestors as I have done on mine, including the Tosfos Yom Tov, and then you’ll have some standing to debate the issue with me. and besides, I didn’t say they weren’t used to advance Torah knowledge, only that they were not central pursuits of his, though they were interests – what can, in other words, be defined as a hobby.
I don’t know that they are all the same person (I am sure not Health) and I don’t want him banned. Choppy is doing more damage to the positions he advocates for than I could ever do.
Ladies, I don’t know if he is spiritually prepared to take such tochecho from members of the gentler gender.
BTW, good to see you back Charlie.
Kozov, I was saying that someone who dishonestly misrepresents Hatikva as being without spiritual reference or value from Torah sources, and who represents it as a kfirahdik tool of atheistic Torah annihilators is being dishonest, and using an out and out lie to advance their agenda. Someone who has to resort to falsehood like that shames himself, not someone else.
As for your question about the early zionists believing E’Y is God given, My Great Great Grandfather who walked for over a year to get to Eretz Yisroel in the mid-late 19th century was motivated by that. He joined the Yishuv in Yerushalayim. His descendants grew up as Torah observant Jews who love eretz yisroel and medinat yisroel.
And really, did you never learn about the Chovevei Tzion movement?
R’ Shmuel Mohilever, who learned in Volozin, and was later the Rov of Bialystock, was its founder and first president. The majority of its original followers were frum Jews. It was the beginning of the modern Zionist movement. It wasn’t until 1893 that there was a significant differentiation between frum and not frum in the movement, and they still worked together after.
First off, I didn’t say I think it was necessary to begin the siyum with singing Hatikvah. I wouldn’t have a problem with it, but I don’t think it would be necessary, especially in Chu’l.
Health, I am not a Novi, but here are some sources for my assertion. I don’t say you must follow them, but these seem sufficient for my assertion (H/T Rav Dov Lipman)
Rabbi Akiva Eiger taught that if we succeed in growing fruit in Israel then the final geulah is imminent (as related by his student, Rav Zvi Hirsch Kalischer, Shivat Zion, volume 2, pp. 51-52).
Meseches Megilla (17b) … the final geulah begins with the in gathering of the exiles, followed by t e flourishing of the fruits of Israel, and concludes with the arrival of the Moshiach and the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdosh.
Beyond this, I follow the teaching of my Rosh Yeshiva, of my Father a’h and my grandfather a’h also pointing in the same direction.
Naftush – perhaps part of the problem is that gedolim of old lived in an environment where leisure time was minimal if at all present, where hobbies were reserved for the rich, and where they weren’t asked to determine how their followers spent every last minute of their time.
As an aside, Some gedolim did have hobbies. My ancestor R’ Yom Tov Lipmann Heller the Tosfos Yom Tov we know was a posek, halachist, kabalist and wrote a magnificent commentary on the mishna. But most people do not know that he was a proficient astronomer and mathematician. He became well known for this over time and even drew the attention of non Jewish scientists.
I thank Hakodosh Boruch Hu every day for the gift of renewing Jewish sovereignty in Eretz Yisroel.
I thank Him every day for beginning the process of the Geulah.
The “Tikva” of two thousand years described by the author of the anthem is the hope and bitachon of every Jew in the last 2000 years. It is the pashut meaning of “bshuv H’ Es shivas Tziyon.”
The Author also talks of the “Nefesh Yehudi” For those of you who are still using the brain cells Hashem gave you, it is hard to reconcile the idea of a nefesh with a conviction that the anthem, the state, and all connected with it are secular anti religious atheistic cossacks bent on your spiritual destruction. It simply defies logic and rational thought.
“Ulfa’atei Mizrach” is a conscious echo of R’ Yehuda Haleivi’s “Libi Bamizrach V’Ani B’sof Hamaarav”. Again, it is a strange thing to use the words, thought, and meaning written by a gadol of 800 years ago in a conscious display of secular anti religious zeal.
In fact, I will go further. This deliberate misinterpretation and misrepresentation is a corruption of reality. It is a fatuous lie, a club to beat those you don’t agree with over the head with. It is a dishonest tactic that shames its users. It demonstrates a departure from fact, logic, and rational discourse.
Even if you don’t share my perspective on Israel (which is fine, I don’t expect everyone to. Unlike some here, I actually believe that people can have differing opinions on matters of hashkafa without being labeled as krum, reform, apikorsim) there is no justification for falsehood.
I am finding myself surprisingly agreeing (almost) with Choppy. THe IOC is a bunch of anti semitic robber barons, there are too many athlestes who are self absorbed, and the whole concept takes too much from a tradition of avodah zarah. I could get my head around a sports competition without the “olympic” baggage a bit better.
Yes, Ohr Chodesh, especially the thousands of yeshiva bochurim in hesder yeshivot, (or the hundreds of thousands, counting those from the last 40 years) who sing Hatikvah with thanks and praise for Hakodosh Boruch Hu, who live Torah lives.
“…it’ll be wicked apikorsim like me who are the first ones lined up against the wall and shot.”
No, Wolf, probably not. They’ll have to shoot through me first. I couldn’t bear to live without your humor. And besides, I would probably be a few spaces down the line from you anyways.
Here’s what live and let live means to me, and what kol yisroel areivim ze bazeh means.
First: Part of the mehalech of tochecho done properly, according to some of the most machmir of posters here in other threads,is that it can only be be given to someone who is receptive – SO – until and unless you know your nosiness and interference is going to be appreciated, you have no halachic right or obligation to give it. So live and let live.
Second: As has been said above, your chumrah is not necessarily his chumrah, and your (or your Rov’s) interpretation of halocho is not necessarily that of him or his Rov. SO why would one make an assumption that you know better, or that your Rov “trumps” his? That is arrogance, and arrogance has no place in Yiddishkeit. So live and let live.
Third: As it says in Avos, have you walked in his (or her) shoes? Do you know if he or she has asked a shailah about what you are seeing? Often poskim – chareidi poskim – are makil to extremes if the particular circumstances dictate it. Do you know if it is their particular challenge, and your rebuke will do more harm than good? If you don’t know, how can you take the risk of pushing someone (further) away from yiddishkeit? So live and let live.
OTOH, what are your responsibilities? If you see something that seems to you to demand a response, perhaps your response should be one of love and achdus. Perhaps you can offer the individual a helping hand, a favour, a smile, a shabbos lunch, or simply an opportunity to talk. Perhaps you could call the person to wish them a good shabbos every couple of weeks instead of crossing to the other side of the street when you see him. IF the person get sin trouble with the law, help and advocate for him. If they need a loan or a job, work to make it happen. If they need help getting their kids into a school, or paying for it, see if you can raise funds for them. If they are sitting shiva, cook for them. If they need a place to live, don’t shoo them away because they don’t meet your standards of tznius, find a way to welcome them into the community, and show them the beauty of a tzniusdig life. THAT is kol yisroel areivim ze bazeh.
Unless, of course, to you, kol yisroel… is a sham, and what is important is maintaining your holy exclusivity and looking down on di andere….
The anthem is only 200+ years old.
Chodosh Osur Min HaTorah.
QED
OTB, I am not going to get in to the discussion of Rabbi Falk’s gadlus or status. Clearly he is a talmid chochom, and just as clearly he is controversial enough to engender a wide variance of opinion. He is not someone who I hold by, but to each his or her own. (except of course, that those who described their “duty” above to give tznius tochechoh appreciate the to each his own when it applies to their chumrahs, but not when it applies to someone else’s interpretation or actions).
As for amulets, since the time of R Yonasan Eybeschutz and R Yaakov Emden there has been pretty uniform rejection of amulets and such things for Ashkenazi Jews. It is entirely valid to take the approach of the Vilna Gaon, The Noda BeYehuda and others that reject their use, So the rejection expressed in this regard is supported by the weight of normative ashkenazic halachic practice for the last 200 years.
Finally, yesh din v’yesh dayon. Who is to measure the denigration of a gadol? By the standard you mentioned, choppy is as deserving of a macho’oh from you as anyone else for his denigration of R’Kook, no matter who else he cites. (He cited the Satmer Rebbe in another thread) But truly, it is a slippery slope – essentially you are sayig that no one has any right to question a posek, talmid chochom, or godol, and no one has any right to call out an egregious or uncomfortable fact about their works.
(I personally don’t feel a need to denigrate anyone even if, as in the case of Reb Yoel, the Satmer Rebbe, I utterly and completely reject his svara. What’s the point?)
Yours is a pretty stifling standard, one that would silence all debate within frum communities. You may think that is healthy. I don’t. And again, if these who are being “insulting” are truly in the wrong, they will be accountable to the aibishter at the end of their days, not to you.
I agree with Toi. Smoking, as bad as it is, isn’t in itself grounds for divorce any more than driving without a seatbelt or eating too much carbs and fatty foods. Dishonesty about it, or lack of effort in doing something about it when a commitment to do so has been made, IS an indicator that there is something seriously wrong in the relationship.
I’ve worked with Jews for Judaism, and others, against missionaries in person and in online environments. It takes a thorough knowledge of nach, and, in my case, a fairly detailed knowledge of Judaean history circa 150 bce to 150 ce, as well as church history and the history of antisemitism. As well, a working knowledge of the most troublesome texts (for them! all troublesome for us) in their “new” testament. This is sufficient for a trained and knowledgeable counter missionary to occupy the time and efforts of a missionary (the point, so they don’t get their teeth into someone who is unprepared), and sometimes, even to succeed in bringing a lost “messianized” Jew back into the fold. (I haven’t had this zechus, but one of Jews for Judaism’s founders, Julius Ciss, is a friend and you can find out about his journey on the Jews for Judaism website.)
But what anyone at Jews for Judaism will tell you is that the best defense against missionary activity is Jewish learning, Jewish knowledge, and Jewish identity. THat is why it is so important to be marbitz Torah l’rabim, especially in communities where there is little connection to the larger kehila and its institutions.
Wolf – not my illness.
Csar, you have no idea. Ba’h you shouldn’t experience 0.0001% of the issues I and my ex have experienced, and the impact they have on two individuals and a family. And as I said, I discussed the matter with the head of the beis din and the vaad harabonim in my city, a posek with over 50 years experience, and he didn’t have the callous, mocking, deriding attitude you have. Maybe you could learn something from him.
And as would be clear, if you bothered to think about it for even a minute, it isn’t the circumstances, (and that’s only a partial list) it is the capacity of the spouses to deal with them and other pressures correctly, and the implications if they can’t or don’t do so well, or in partnership. It is the capacity of the spouses to deal with each other properly when 2, 3, 4 or 5 of these things mentioned above are happening at once, and the damage done to the relationship when it is impossible to cope.
The clear issue isn’t the circumstances, but rather how much damage has been done? What, if anything can be repaired? Are the individuals prepared to change? If not, and they keep doing the same things that are drowning them, how is it going to be good for anyone to continue?
It is also a matter of what the spouses bring in to a marriage – their own issues, weaknesses, families, traumas, and how they deal with those, while also trying to deal with all of the other issues.
But of course, you know better. I would be angry and upset with you, if I hadn’t learned anything from my experiences, but truthfully, I just feel sorry for you.
I hope that you take comfort in your certainty, and that you never experience a tiny fraction of what many good people go through.
mommamia, +1
I am constantly amazed by the capacity of people to assume, generalize, pontificate, postulate, and opine on matters with which they have no direct experience.
If we were just talking halocho, I understand – my rov says this, that godol says that, clear.
But here, people are discussing the motivations of people in broken marriages as if they had a clue. They are making assumptions about the “ease” of divorce (as if it were simple), they are making assumptions that the problems are superficial {forget a birthday? Seriously, Pashuteh Yid?}, and the worst of it is some are justifying a frankly revolting reaction among the community to the situation that violates everything I know about how one Jew is supposed to treat another.
You want to talk about the disposable marriage? Maybe there’s a couple with too much time and money on their hands, no kids, and a pretty vacuous or conscienceless existence somewhere in the velt. I don’t know. Maybe this is to whom the fictional disposable marriage happens.
For the rest of us, there are real issues in real situations, be they job loss, illness, bereavement, challenged kids, depression, debt, lack of communication, and more, not even counting the issues of addiction or abuse that were brought up above. There is real interaction with therapists, rabonim, family to try to salvage things. There is real potential for personal growth and learning lessons even if the marriage cant be saved. There are real interactions with the beis din. There are real and substantial costs with lawyers. There are real implications regarding custody of and access to children that have immediate and lasting effects. No one in the real world that I live in takes these things lightly. No one.
But hey, you all without firsthand experience know better, and your fantasyland perspective on imaginary disposable marriages is justification enough for stigmatizing all of us who live in the real world.
You might start by not calling the woman an abomination, even though he should be divorcing her. That’ll probably go a long way towards establishing your credibility with him, which will help your kiruv efforts.
Ohr Chodesh, once again you launch into a topic without firsthand experience and purvey your “expertise”. If you have gone through a failing marriage, multiple attempts to fix it with help from rabonim, family, and therapists, and you still hold your opinion, I don’t agree, but at least you are speaking from experience.
If, however, you are simply relating at second, third, or fourth hand generalizations from rabonim or gedolim who would NEVER suggest that an attitude should apply to individual situations, but would investigate the specific circumstances before making an individual psak, you are slapping a lot of people in the face.
It is not “fortunate” that divorce carries a stigma. It is certainly important not to take marriage lightly, with an “oh, well, I can always get out of it” attitude. But divorce is a very painful experience, for all involved. A pain I hope you never have to experience. A pain whose “punishment” is deep and long lasting. If Hashem is letting us know that divorce is something to be avoided (which if possible, it should be) that pain is perhaps his way of delivering the message, and it is enough in and of itself. But….
How you or anyone in any community can DARE to make any assumptions about the motivations, efforts, reconciliation attempts, agreements, disagreements, attitudes, and mindset of someone going through a divorce, and then to make value judgements on it is a vile and disgusting twist and reversal of veohavto loreacho komocho, and its corollary, that what is hateful to you, you should not do to your neighbor. Unless you are in the house 24/7 you don’t know and can’t know what the situation is. You don’t know and can’t know what efforts have been put into saving the marriage. You don’t know and can’t know what pressures and problems went into the breakdown of the marriage. You don’t know and can’t know what the effects of being ejected from social and communal circles are. You don’t know what effects that stigma has on the children, and you don’t know what effect it has on the spouses.
After a number of kids and almost 15 years of marriage in my case, and often more and longer in other cases, do you really think divorce is “just another option?” “that’s no big deal?” Child support is no big deal? paying huge sums to lawyers is no big deal? Standing in front of a beis din is no big deal?
You know nothing about this. Nothing. I discussed all aspects of my situation with the senior rov in the city where I live, a posek for 50 years, head of the beis din, and he agreed it had to move forward. And I have interacted with him since, and he hasn’t stigmatized me or my ex even if the community I used to be part of has. If I am going to take the example of a godol on this, I’ll take his. You can take yours. And you can once again examine the nature of ahavas yisroel in this week before tisha b’av. Hurtful speech is not ahavas yisroel. And there are many readers here who have suffered more through their divorce than I have, I am sure. so your offensive words are probably even more hurtful to them. Maybe you can learn something here, about shmiras Haloshon. Please consider it, and have a meaningful fast.
kodesh +1. I can tell you that despite having been very involved in our community, giving shiurim, hosting many newcomers and BTs on shabbos for years, etc, much of the community dropped both me and my ex like wet rags when we separated.
As someone who has gone through it, do your utmost to fix yourself and overcome your michsholim. Encourage your spouse to do the same for him or herself. If you or your spouse can be helped by a rov or a professional to do so, great. Know one thing. You can only change yourself. You can’t change your spouse, and they can’t change you. If he or she isn’t able or willing to change, or you aren’t able or willing to change, together, it isn’t going to work. So at the end of the day, if you have made an honest effort, if it still doesn’t work, it is time to end the marriage.
It is 100x better to end a poisonous situation that isn’t improving than to stay together and let the wounds fester. Your children will not be helped by an increasingly acrimonious atmosphere in your household. Neither will you or your spouse.
Also know that if you are not happy – or if you are walking around disappointed, angry, despondent, depressed, or out of sorts, your children will pick up on it immediately. Your parenting will suffer. So this “sacrificing your happiness” for them sounds noble but is really negative. You want to sacrifice material things for them, fine, good. You want to sacrifice time for them, even better. But If you aren’t happy, they will be affected.
Or maybe not enough people using their seichel, memory, and the investment their parents made in their education to look up a tshuva or recall it from the last time the issue came up.
Ohr Chodesh, you wrote “It’s the non-Torah learners who are not giving sufficiently.”
I guess over 20,000 lives given to protect Am Yisroel isn’t giving sufficiently in your cheshbon.
And I will illuminate two of those 20,000.
Major Roi Klein z’l was a Golani brigade deputy commander. He was a Hesder Yeshiva graduate, He was killed in the 2006 2nd Lebanon War, in an ambush among the houses of Bint Jbail, a large village in southern Lebanon. Hezbullah terrorists killed eight soldiers, including Roi, and injured nearly two dozen.
There were two other soldiers next to Roi. A hand grenade was thrown at them and Roi shouted, “Grenade!” He then threw his body over it, sacrificing his life for the sake of his soldiers, who later attributed being alive to his act of selflessness.
In his last seconds of life, Roi mustered the strength to shout “Shema Yisroel” the prayer that Jews have prayed for centuries, declaring our belief in G-d and in a better world; the prayer that so many Jewish martyrs throughout the generations called out as they were being led to their deaths.
Here is the story of one of those “not giving sufficiently” who I knew personally. Steve Auerbach wasn’t frum, though he was traditional. He didn’t study in Yeshiva like Roi Klein did. He was, however, one of the best soldiers Israel ever produced. He was nicknamed “Guns”, because he was probably the best shot with small arms in the IDF and Magav. He was an instructor for the YAMAM anti terror commando unit. On the morning of May 18, 2003, he was on a bus in the French Hill neighborhood. He saw a man get on the bus dressed as a chareidi, but he immediately knew something was wrong. The man was pale and nervous. The bus was half full, But Steve knew, he told me, as he rode this bus often, that the next stop would have a large crowd of Bais Yaakov girls heading to school, and this guy was no chareidi. He began to draw his weapon and shouted to people to get down. The bomber detonated (early, as he had wanted to do so on the full bus as it made its way further into yerushalayim). seven people died, but dozens were saved. Steve was severely injured, leaving him a quadriplegic for the next seven years, until his death from his injuries in 2010. Steve had a hard time dealing with his injury, but he said he would do it again if he was in the same position. He loved the Jewish people. After his injury He spoke to hundreds if not thousands of young Jews about Eretz Yisrael and Ahavat Yisrael. He traveled around the world – even as a quadriplegic, more than once, to raise funds for sport therapy for children disabled by terror in Israel.
I knew Steve. He was a “non-Torah learner”, as you put it. You spit on his memory (and that of Roi Klein, who was a Torah learner as well as being a soldier, and those of over 20,000 more, frum and not frum, learners and not learners) by saying that he did not give sufficiently.
I’m not going to call you names, though, and I have ahavas achim for you even though I disagree with you. I just hope you learn something about those who “don’t give sufficiently”.
Ohr Chodesh – oooo. krum. reform. calling names – nice response to a Rashi that contradicts your perspective. This is an anonymous forum, so your name and shame, malbin pnei chaveiro brabim intimidation tactics (particularly noteworthy in the first week of Av) won’t work. Try addressing the question like MW13 ( I may not agree with his perspective, but at least he is conducting himself in a menschlech way) instead of a kneejerk name calling dismissal.
mw13, thanks for your response. I have a few questions and observations. I am not an American, so I don’t know how it is now, but when I was in Yeshiva a few decades ago, there were a few American citizens in my class, and they had a legal requirement to register for the draft (even though there was no conscription at the time, registration was mandatory) and they did so, as penalties for not doing so were severe. Do yeshiva bochurim still do so? If not, why not?
My larger observation is that Israel is not America. There are, it seems to me, responsibilities that go beyond dina demalchusa dina, such as kol yisroel areivim ze bazeh, and how that is accomplished, the value and sanctity of Jewish life, and how it is safeguarded, as well as the obvious, which is that one CAN use the infrastructure and still be to some larger or smaller degree, a hypocrite. Many years ago, I had an ongoing online forum discussion with a man from Kansas who was insistent on Israel’s colonialist and imperialist illegitimacy. I pointed out to him that where he lived was clearly traditional Kiowa land, and his “occupation” of it, deriving benefit from it, was clear hypocrisy if he was going to criticize Israel, and even more so because Jews were there in Israel thousands of years ago and he was a newcomer of two generations in Kansas. I wasn’t saying that he had to get up and leave, but I was pointing out the moral quandary that his advocacy put him in. Same here, except that I expect higher moral and ethical standards from Chareidim than I do from an anti-Israel agitator from Kansas. In short, again, hypocrisy is hypocrisy even if you can continue using the infrastructure without sanction.
As to your response to the Zevulun Yissochor comparison. I have said before that I feel there is an unfortunate perception among chareidim (especially in chutz laaretz) that chiloni Israelis have only one thought in their mind, one goal in life that animates all of their actions, and that is to spiritually destroy chariedim. This may have been the case with a small number of hyper politicized secular zionists years ago (especially pre WW2), but it is simply not the case now.
Chilonim ( and there are many different motivations among them, they are not one homogeneous group) simply don’t care enough about the daily lives of chareidim to want to “shmad” them. Those chareidim who think they do have never talked about it with an average chiloni and have an exaggerated sense of self importance. Chilonim care about their business, their education, their security, their kids, their garden, their hobbies, their social life and a dozen other things more than they do about what kind of spiritual life the residents of Bnei Brak or Meah Shearim have. The only cases in which they do care are the points at which chareidi practice intersects or interferes with their lives and the freedoms Israeli law mandates to them. If you believe otherwise, again, you haven’t talked to the people you are describing as not being able to overtly discriminate (but wanting to). Someone has been lying to you about the chilonim. I suggest you think about why they would do that.
I concede that the Zevulun Yissochor comparison is not perfect, but the willingness of the chilonim to defend every Jew and lay down his or her life as part of a social compact with all of their fellow citizens, allowing their fellow citizens to live a normal life including learning in Yeshiva or Kollel represents the mundane side of the equation pretty well.
OC, I will remind you of the Rashi on Moshe’s brocho for Zevulun and Yissochor.
So, basically, you are contradicting Rashi. And people criticize me for disagreeing with gedolim. Seriously.
DY, while I will endeavor to be more humble, unfortunately many people use the idea that one is challenging the gedolim as a simple “sha shtil” weapon in an argument, or as a way to deflect a new circumstance or a pressing issue that has not been addressed, or fully addressed.
“You should be more humble, recognize your stature relative to the gedolim, and not c”v insinuate that those who follow the path of the Chazon Ish are disingenuous or hypocritical.”
I am not insinuating, and I doubt that those who take without giving are following the derech of the chazon ish. I am saying that it is hypocritical to sit in the knesset while condemning it as an institution, it is hypocritical to take government subsidies on an institutional or personal level while not only criticizing the government and deriding those who elected it, but denying it the right to have established itself in the first place. It is hypocritical to use the infrastructure, water, energy, roads, social services, hospitals, without either supporting such things through taxes or through national service of some kind.
I have other issues with Neturei Karta, such as their palling around with holocaust deniers and modern day hamans, but at least they make a point of not taking anything from a government they don’t recognize (and even they aren’t perfect about it. They use roads, streetlights, and other infrastructure that they don’t support.)
Maybe you have a heter for hypocrisy. I don’t know. OK, that’s in your cheshbon, not mine.
DY, no offense taken. But I can’t believe your second point. Those are $ that belong to every taxpayer in Israel. It doesn’t matter where it would be spent. It’s their money.
And secondly, would you use the same reasoning to allow eating from a neveiloh? ‘Where would the meat otherwise be eaten?’ Since the poster I was challenging sees the knesset and the medinah as Tomei, and brings evidence that R Elyashiv did too, do you think they would agree with your rationale if it came to something else which is seen as “Tomei?”
He called the Knesset botei minus, and yet has allowed Degel HaTorah to participate in it; allowed mosdos over which he had authority to take government funds; allowed those who followed him to use the roads, hospitals, electrical grids, water sources, and social services provided by the laws and administration of the beis minus. I simply don’t get it. I’ve tried to understand, but my limited intellect is not up to the task. Why is it OK to take from what one sees as Tomei? Can someone please explain?
Oh, and by the way – the very topical Gemoro in Gittin describing the story of Bar Kamtza as an explanation of the idea that the 2nd beis hamikdosh was destroyed because of sinas chinom makes it abundantly clear that Bar Kamtzas actions were kindled at least in part by the silence of the Rabonim who were at the party that he was thrown out of. One could argue that since they didn’t even say anything, there was no lav and certainly no maaseh, so they didn’t “express” sinah. But their inaction was a root cause of that sinah. In practical terms, a comparison could possibly be made with this situation. It could be said that no sinah is being “expressed” by the Viznitzer, but the outcome could be seen as such.
Ohr Chodosh, you aren’t debating with anyone. My point is not to be the town crier for when one or the other godol makes a mistake or makes a decision which turns out to have had unintended consequences; My point is also not to tell people not to follow gedolim – follow who you feel is your manhig and for what you need his hanhogo.
My point is that the relatively recent phenomenon of “godol infallibility” is a minhag akum. Look at the kaporoh sought by the megaleh amukos for his wrong decision, which he felt cost the lives of his three brothers in law. Look at the feud between Rav Yaakov Margoliyos and Rav Yehudah Mintz. R yonasan Eybeshutz and R yaakov Emden. There was a right and a wrong in each of these cases.
Boruch Hashem that our gedolim are human and can relate to our frailties. You want to set up our gedolim as beyond mistakes?
That’s not Yiddishkeit. Its kim’at kfira.
ohr chodesh – I was talking about the principle of the matter, and you make it personal. Poor debating skills. If Moshe Rabeinu could make mistakes, and Dovid hamelech could make mistakes, so could the holiest people of our generation. It makes them no less holy, no less worthy of being our guides. We don’t need to emulate the gentiles to recognize their greatness.
Toi – internet may be needed, but according to what I have been advised many of those gedolim involved in the inyan have said, it shouldn’t be used except for those things. So – how is your education or your parnossah advanced by posting on yeshivaworld?
Choppy, learn the first mishna in the eleventh perek of sanhedrin. There are only 7 people (6, if you count King Menashe’s tshuva) who don’t rate any chelek. That’s it. You want to argue with the Tanna Kama? be my guest.
Though there are a number of people who have weighed in on this who I disagree with (often) on other threads, I have to say I am impressed with their rational and compassionate approach to this issue. Yasher Koach Toi, Health, Choppy, GAW and others.
Our gedolim are brilliant. Our gedolim are tzadikim. Our gedolim are incredible guides for us and doros to come. No question. But our gedolim are not infallible. We leave infallibility to the catholics and their pope. Making them out to be such introduces a goyish mentality into yiddishkeit.
And you Toi, and Shlishi, simply by posting here, are demonstrating that you don’t accept all of the psakim of the gedolei hador, so where do you get the gumption for criticizing someone else for doing the same thing?