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Proofs in situations like these are meaningless. If i prove that someone succeeded in quitting the nocturnal adult entertainment through white knuckled perseverence, youd say it was in spite of the fact that he didnt seek help. If you prove that someone did quit with help, id just say that he could have also done it alone.
It all comes down to an understanding of the problem, i doubt either of us would venture a sharing of personal experience which would prove credibility and so, ive offered my opinion on the matter and i will offer it no more after this post. We have reached a stalemate, you think that one requires therapy to drop the issue, i maintain that no one does. I dont see this going anywhere but i look forward to being proved wrong.
Agav, Josephius Flavius, whos considered reliable enough for rashi to quote him over 20 times claimed to have seen the pillar of salt which was Lots wife. It could be that he thought he saw it but was mistaken. One thing is fairly certain though, he was under the impression that he saw her thousands of years after the transfiguration.
Curiosity : Brilliant, love it
Ay health, i cant help but think you do it on purpose. Why do you persist in addressing the wrong points, stick to the material, pseudo intelligence or not. Just address what people say and if you think it’s pseudo intelligence, explain why, dont attack personally, its unbecoming.
It seems that i havent said it enough times because youre still misunderstanding. At no point did i put the burden of responsibility on the wife. I feel for her and dont envy her plight. I merely maintain that the problem can be solved between them and professional intervention is an unnecessary measure. I also stressed the importance of her being supportive and on his side in solving their shared problem. She shouldnt oppose him and shouldnt make ultimatums which will put pressure on their relationship.
finally, just because you claim it is not insecurity, does not make it so. Likewise for my accusations.
Hope youre having a wonderful day!
Your supercilious and sanctimonious attitude is so inordinately offensive im surprised that any of your posts are not deleted. I keep stressing this and you persevere, this is not personal, i dont know you at all so i have no reason to be arguing on any plane other than the intellectual one. For some odd reason, you persist with your insecure denigration.
The fact that someone you know succeeded with an ultimatum is likely to be in spite of the fact that an ultimatum and probably not because of. Ultimatums are horrible ideas within relationships and promote division – not unity.
I think it was actually kinda funny…. and commensurate with the treatment ive been receiving over the last few days
Lipa, you talking about fidldy husband or Health?
button orientation does not the sexual orientation of a shirt make. Its still a mans shirt because thats what it was designed to be.
As for conventional button orientation. The chessed over din thing is the reason for the chassidish deviation from the norm. Buttons, funny as it may sound are actually designed for to be easier for right handed people, we use our right hands to do the pushing of the button through the hole which is merely held by the weaker left – true story.
The female deviation from the norm originates with 19th century Victorian women. Women, who would be dressed by a servant, wouldnt fasten their own buttons. The button orientation was switched to accomodate the right handed servants who would now be able to mimic the motion on their own clothes, on the womens clothes.
They are indeed infallible, they are fallible by people greater than they are, that rules out most of the people who like to claim they they are fallible and all of the users of the YWNCR – barring Health of course….
Youre so wrapped up in my being wrapped up that you dont think before you type. You have the ability to take a civil discussion and cheapen it and the sometimes valid points you postulate with petty, immature and frankly, juvenile fighting. Im not looking to make this hostile but you clearly are. I think your posts would have infinitely more value if you stuck to them. Theres no need to dilute them with your baseless prejudices and defensive belittling of your fellow posters.
As for tachlis, “The ultimatum is either you go for help or I’m leaving.” That sort of ultimatum is exactly the one i was saying was wrong for the occasion. She has to be on his side, its a shared issue and acting in the way you suggest he should is indicative of a very different stance. Even if it is successful as a deterrent for him, the more devastating result is the breakdown in this relationship. If he does “give up” out of the fear of losing her, his commitment is far less strong as its not based on his own motivation but from a lack of options. You should read “men are from Mars” to understand a little about what courses of action are more likely to evoke a response from men. One which makes him feel impotent and under pressure is far less effective than one which makes him feel he’s powerful and in control.
Finally, your vociferous harping on about the need for therapy makes me wonder. You denied being a Woman so ill accept that as true, are you a man whos looking to mitigate his dirty little secret by claiming its an addiction strong enough to demand therapy?
Its 89:3 in case youre curious
Because picking someone elses is disgusting
onegoal, no disrespect intended but I THINK, you missed what pcoz was complaining about. And pcoz, you missed his missing!
One goal, he meant that by blaming peoples misdemeanours on the abuse that they suffered, you are absolving them of the blame the bechira forces on them. I think thats what he meant.
Ha! its amazing, when there is leitzanus on the table, the messages come flooding in, when theres a serious, and VERY basic question, the silence hurts because it screams the truth.
Devarim 15:8 – ????-?????? ????????? ???-??????, ???; ?????????, ??????????????, ???? ?????????, ?????? ??????? ???.
Two pesukim later it doth say – ?????? ??????? ???, ?????-????? ???????? ?????????? ???: ???? ???????? ???????? ??????, ?????????? ?????? ?????????, ??????-?????????, ??????? ???????? ??????
Vayikra 25:35 – ?????-??????? ???????, ??????? ????? ???????–????????????? ????, ???? ????????? ????? ?????
and the next passuk – ???-??????? ???????? ??????? ???????????, ????????? ???????????; ????? ???????, ???????
That was all the tzedakka sources i could think of. As for chessed,
It says in pirkei avos that its one of the three pillars upon which the earth stands.
it says oilam chessed yibaneh in tehillim,
Hope that helps, im tired but if you need more, let me know
in kabbalah, the right side represents midas hadin and the left represents midas haracham, the chassidim want to keep rachamim over din so they button the other way.
ultimatums are a bad idea, she should stand by his side and help him, be supportive. Being forced to quit something breeds resentment and hostility. If he does quit based on this ultimatum, something is missing in his commitment to quitting. He needs a warm and healthy environment, not one of supercilious condescension pressuring him.
Ive posted my argument as many times as ive needed to respond to yours! Without knowledge of the statistics, who are you to say whether or not self control without intervention is enough?
I was not at the asifa in fact, so another horrible guess. Smoking is allowed in yeshivas because it aint as cut and dry as you claim it to be. They dont allow bochurim who are addicted to treif food to eat treif food, irrespective of their addiction to it. Smoking is allowed because bochurim are not in prison, they have the right to make and rectify their own mistakes, so long as they are not infringing on halacha. Before you jump down my throat about how assur smoking actually is, i wont entertain that argument, its been done by many greater people than myself and yet is still inconclusive.
oh, and smoking may not be banned in yeshivas but in my limited experience, pornographic material or anything which even smells remotely similar to it is completely unaccepted.
Why thank you Syag
luckily, i dont read posts before commenting so i didnt even notice. 😉
give him some credit, he hit the nail on the head.
and this aint a fight as much as its a disagreement, for a purpose, to allow this poor woman some solace in advice from her concerned bretheren.
wow, im touched, thanks everyone!
Nope, i have no secular education to speak of, in fact, i failed high school.
What you felt was missing from my post was precisely my point, that all he and she need is eachother and some will power. Its a dangerous problem but not one that is difficult to overcome with some will power. When i said that help is useless, i meant that it isnt necessary, its a problem which can and should be overcome within oneself, or within a couple.
Hes struggling with an issue whose main weapon is convincing the sufferer that hes not suffering. That is the main problem of the husband, that he believes that what he is doing is not wrong. he needs just to learn some mussar, understand the cataclysmic effects of the aveiros which surround these nocturnal activities and through this, arrive at the realization that he needs to effect a change, WITHIN. He doesnt want to stop right now, he just wants to want to stop, when he does want to, hell find it alot easier than you may think.
Apologies for the Mrs thing, it was unnecessary.
Im yet to get a welcome… 🙁
what country are you sending money from?
But i read and responded accurately to the post….
possibly..
Im not sure about this one, the gem tells the story about how Abaye and Rava visit the same interpreter with the same dreams, one pays and is prosperous and Rava didnt pay and suffered tragedy. When they discovered what was going on, they asked the dream interpreter to explain and he gave my above explanation…..
He was dealt with in one of my favourite ways in all of gemmorah!
The gemmorah in brachos 55 says that dream interpretation follows the interpretation of the interpreter, so, i say that this dream means that you will have much hatzlacha in all your righteous endeavours.
Infallibles post becomes less relevant when we discuss the conscription of hundreds of thousands of bochurim, it is not an intrinsic problem with the army, its a problem for any bochur in an irreligious environment.
blogging about subjects i know nothing about?
you claim not to care about my background and yet continually refer to it as a reason for my unreliability.
I will not corroborate your theory about my background, my response is irrespective of that. At the end of the day (totally overused phrasing) the man in question is suffering from an issue, compulsion or addicition, depends on whom you ask, but regardless he is suffering. If, according to you, he needs help, you still cannot deny the importance of his wife being supportive of his issue. Not making it one to be ashamed of infront of her or making it one which makes him feel like an animal. Even with proffessional help, which i dont deny will be useful, just redundant, he will need self control and a supporting wife. You seem to be more intent on nit picking and playing semantics with my words than responding to the point behind them.
Addiction or compulsion, his loving wife should sit with him and help him to find a solution, they dont need to blog about it, they dont need medicine, they just need eachother and some perserverence. What you seem to have done is subtracted the place of bechira by making it a psychological issue which is beyond his control. Its not – hes not crippled by it, he is just struggling with an issue, in the same way as each and everyone of us, barring possibly mrs Health, struggle with some sort of issue in our religious observence.
Finally, i believe that not nearly enough information or understanding of this topic is prevalent in our society. We need to raise awareness for an issue which is already rife. While there are great advantages to not publicising averos, people deserve to feel like they are not alone and like they have hope.
I hope that you do not continue in your nitpicking and baselessly prejudiced ways of the past and take some time to consider my lowly opinion, whether im a classical greeek athenian philospher, a skulduggerous yeshiva bochur or a hard working lawyer.
But i did nail the disenchanted parent thing didnt i! he he he
Secondly, im glad you dont care but if thats truly the case, your conjecture about my occupation had no place in your post.
The definition of the term addiction is constantly being refined and there are those who will side with your post, which i did read before posting my chochmos. I offered my opinion, which was siding with those who see a discernable chasm between chemical addiction and compulsive behaviours. Youre entitled to disagree, a right which you seem to have taken to heart but, sadly, as a self confessed member of a generation, mainly only indirectly experiencing this problem, your opinion carries less weight.
makes sense to me
All this resentment for the people who are keeping our little earth spinning on its axis….
The question is simple enough, army or kollel, to me, its not one or the other. some are built to learn, some are built to fight, others are built to work – some to question others. No two people on this planet have the same tafkid and so this question cannot be answered on a general scale. Thats just my humble opinion…. Pseudo intelligence.
The bathroom is a place where nakedness is not considered to be a lack of tznius, therefor, youd probably be right about that.
yeshivishsocrates – Just curious. Do you even know who Socrates was?
“Oy veh, Professional help means nothing,”
Right, because you say so. And your the expert because why?
“i dont know who you are or what your background is in these matters but i doubt its one of much experience.”
So what is your experience? Being online and blogging all day?
I won’t even be Choshet where you are going that you have sooo much experience.
“The issue at hand, terrible and devastating as it may well be is not one which requires help.”
Nonsense.
“This does not mitigate the severity of the issue but there are thousands upon thousands of people who have experienced these issue or who are experiencing these issues who will tell you unequivocally that whilst it may be an overwhelming and all consuming issue, it is not one which can be helped with anti addiction treatments.”
Right. Just like the alcoholic will say I’m not a drunk and even if I do drink a little bit -no shrink will be able to help me.
Or the smoker will say -I’m gonna stop right after I get married -I don’t need no professional help.
This is the problem with Bain Hamzmanim. Kids come here looking for some fun. But what they don’t realize – is that Adults come here all the time looking for solutions for real problems.
Hey kids, you want some Letzonus? Go Troll at some white-supremacist site and blog there and I’m sure you’ll have a ball.
The yeshivos should cut Bain Hazmanim to 5 days during the summer, just so the Bochurim can go home and visit their parents.
Wow, some serious anger at yeshiva guys and at bein hazmanimim, are your children causing you strife? do you wish they could be away for longer? may i suggest military school?
As for the tachlis of your post, im very familiar with Socrates and his work, you say youre not going to be choshed me… isnt that saying one thing and doing another?
The comparison to smoking or alcoholism is not the greatest one. Those substances are chemical and the addicton to them is a chemical one. The addiction to unsuitable material is not an addiction but a compulsion, electric shock therapy wont be nearly as efficienct as a supportive wife to help muster the will to have the self control.
As to your various assumptions about my occupation, you have no idea from what walk of life i hail or how i spend my time, if i was in a decent yeshiva, it wouldnt be bein hazmanim yet anyway.
i didnt have trouble reading it, and if i did, reprinting it wouldnt have assisted me.
can you please explain the point he is trying to make by this? that he doesnt have a trophy wives but others do? is that it?
Shulchan Oruch (Orach Chayim 2,1)
im starting to feel persecuted! what did i miss in this one?
I was very well aware of the fact that the suggestion included restricting the enlistment to those who are not learning but this presents us with two issues.
The first being that absence of learning may not be enough of a reason to put a young boy into a potentially harmful for his spirituality situation.
The second being that the proposed draft made no such mention of segregating the learners from the bums, it was a universal draft and so this post is neither in support of or against the proposal.
I have no brothers, 557, you seem a fairly rational being, i appreciate that, can you do me the favour of explaining what it is that i have clearly missed?
great explanation, for a man so vociferously outspoken, you are a man with little solid information beyond the bravado.
ah, the sound of ahavas yisrael. I will resist the urge to sink to the level of these insulting posts and allow you to present your points. Im fully cooked.
but how can you possibly know that that was his motivation, the evidence in front of you is a man with a woman who you have deemed attractive. Does not this sound like you could possibly be jumping to conclusions? perhaps looking with an eye to cynical for a ben torah? Your brother was so quick to jump to your defence but i dont mean to criticise, au contraire my good friend, i seek to increase judging favourably.
pretty sure i read and addressed the comment. Your nepotistic defence doesnt have any substance, its mere offence at the fact that i didnt respond kindly to the post.
Ill reiterate what i meant as it was clearly not understood. All i said was that i dont understand how your brother can possibly know the motivation behind a person marrying an attractive woman. how can he possibly know that they did it to impress people! doesnt it sound ludicrous that a person would sacrifice his life to mere impress his friends?
After that seemingly valid point, i pointed out that a man is entitled to marry an attractive woman and to find her attractive, however, i think it is inappropriate that he is not only noticing but measuring and objectifying the looks of other mens wives.
If you have a substantiable complaint at that, id love to hear and respond to it.
Bashing the bashers?
Are we serious? How is it that youre so in touch with the motivations for and selection process involved in bnei torah choosing their wives? a man must be attracted to his wife, perhaps this was his motivation for choosing her? Or, equally likely, perhaps it was a pleasant extra on a baalas midos with all of your listed qualities?
if i may venture a suggestion, maybe you should consider spending less time checking out the wives of bnei torah and focus on becoming a ben torah… i believe this to be the bigger lesson from your post.
let me get this straight, you want to introduce a mandatory draft, irrelevant of its pros and cons right now, based purely on the fact that some boys who are enrolled in yeshivas are not learning? Do you have a percentage or any such data which would make this worth it? Do you believe that more boys in yeshiva are masquerading as yeshiva bochurim than are actually learning?
Im confused, would love to see this data which warrants the disbanding of yeshivas in order to bring swift end to the grand hoax which no one has yet noticed. Yeh – you knock some sense into them, you were clearly in the army as you seem to have the sense knocked in you!
Oy veh, Professional help means nothing, Im too lazy to go back and check who it was who didnt agree with my post, health or something like that. i dont know who you are or what your background is in these matters but i doubt its one of much experience. The issue at hand, terrible and devastating as it may well be is not one which requires help. This does not mitigate the severity of the issue but there are thousands upon thousands of people who have experienced these issue or who are experiencing these issues who will tell you unequivocally that whilst it may be an overwhelming and all consuming issue, it is not one which can be helped with anti addiction treatments.
I thought a psak halacha would be more accepted than a gemmorah by which we dont necessarily pasken. However, i stand corrected, i should have written the original source too.
ok, It would seem that i arrived a little late to this conversation so i apologise if i repeat any of the original ideas of my fellow posters.
The first thing that id like to point out is that you should really examine the dynamics of your relationship as husband and wife. A wife who would rather seek the opinions of the uninformed, anonymous masses than confront her own husband is likely to be repressing and harbouring other concerns about her husband. The longer you repress it, the more intense and disproportionate your eventual reaction will be when you can hold it in no longer. Just talk to your husband in the manner in which you are supposed to be doing. As his loving and supportive wife, his issues are yours too, talking between yourselves should be your first step, then if need be, a therapist – asking the world, in my humble opion, is just pointless.
Secondly, aside from the issue mentioned above, dont necessarily blame yourself. The gemmorah describes tayvas nashim as something which increases the more it is fed. His needs being tended to at home would not necessarily diminish his desire for further virtual helpings. Suggesting this comes from ignorance regarding tayva.
Finally, is this is a discussion room and not a novel, the only way for your husband to emerge from this issue, note the lack of the term addiction, is if you work together, as a couple to strengthen his resolve against this, the most fierce yetzer horah of our generation. Therapy, pills and preventative measures all have their uses but here, its simply misdirected. This sort of thing needs to be solved from the inside and in the confines of a marriage, inside includes you.
As is clear from the depth, poignancy and accuracy of your response, it was based on a solid foundation of halacha and an in depth understanding of Jewish mentality.
Reb Moshe Feinstein (you may have heard of him, he was a small posek in America a few years ago (!)) wrote a psak on a very similar question. He defined Chukas Hagoyim as somehting which is done exclusively by gentiles and something, the motivation for which, is purely to conform with the trend. “Fun” or “Modern” are not criteria by which we outlaw behaviours.