yeshivaman613

Reb Always_Ask_Questions,

Those numbers are totally irrelevant. Even if the Charedi population pays less taxes then the rest of the population, that does not mean the taxes they pay don’t cover the governments expenses for them by a significant margin.

Let’s also remember that like in America, there are many things the government pays for that are of little or no benefit to the frum population. In public schools in Israel (mamlachti), both religious and irreligious, tuition is completely covered by the government. In those schools the teachers are also generally paid (much) higher salaries, and a lot of government money goes towards fancy equipment and facilities. The government does also help with tuition in private schools, but not nearly to the same extent. There is also a tremendous amount of government money that goes towards Universities, stadiums, and many other cultural expenditures, and liberal research groups that are of benefit to some parts of the population but not others.

This is why we are fighting for tuition vouchers in america; so that our tax money doesn’t exclusively go toward kids learning about the 8 different genders and affirmative action, and not towards the schooling for the religious tax paying communties.

My sister-in-law’s research lab (which was actually a useful one) paid for all-expenses-paid trips to different exotic countries for the researchers (including her) to basically do nothing because the head of the lab felt it would be a “great cultural experience”.

So feel free to try to put together the numbers, but due to all the silly things governments spend money on, for many of which the charedi population does not contribute to the expense or benefit from whatsoever, I would think it’s highly doubtful that charedi society is costing more than their economic contributions.

I don’t think you realize how much torah the AMERICAN government is supporting. There is food stamps and free daycare available for low-income students, even if they are full time yeshiva students. There is also HUD/section 8, WIC, LIHEAP, medicaid, and various other programs. There is also Fafsa and many other forms of aid that yeshivas in america get from the government.

If the American government would decide to suddenly not give any of these benefits to people who are learning in yeshiva or kollel, I would certainly think that is wicked discrimination. Since these programs are being funded by taxpayers, all citizens should equally have the rights to receive these benefits.

So the same way public schools and colleges in israel get this funding, why shouldn’t yeshivas? Ah, because what the yeshivas are doing isn’t as valuable as studying Japanese folk songs in a liberal arts course? If so that is absolutely rishus, no doubt about it. A “jewish state” should know better.

Not sure I ever understood the point of these ywn coffee room piskei halacha. Yes there is a din mefuarsh in chazal of a moser, and yes it’s brought in shulchan aruch. There are some cases one would be allowed, or even obligated to be moser, see shulchan aruch and poskim. If someone wants to know specific gedarim for specific scenarios, they should speak to their rov, and not do anything bc of something they read in the YWN coffee room.

The pashut pshat why we need 4 cosos is like the gemara says in pesachim (117b): אַרְבַּע כָּסֵי תִּיקְּנוּ רַבָּנַן דֶּרֶךְ חֵירוּת, כֹּל חַד וְחַד נַעֲבֵיד בֵּיהּ מִצְוָה. Meaning, chazal were mesakein to do four mitzvos al hacos on seder night. Kiddush requires a cos, we say the haggadah al hacos, we bentch al hacos, and we say hallel al hacos (cos yeshuos esa uv’sehm Hashem ekra). One can ask why we’re limited to only have 4 mitzvos al hacos, but these are all specific mitzvos that have a shaychus to being said al hacos. We say the hagadah on the matzao (lechem sheonin alav divarim harbeh), so it’s not strange that it must be said on a cos as well. See the haggadah m’beis levi (brisk) where saying the haggada on the matzos is compared to saying kiddush on a cup of wine. The lashon of the Rambam in hilchos chametz u’matza perek 7 is explicit that each of these mitzvos need a cos: כָּל כּוֹס וְכוֹס מֵאַרְבָּעָה כּוֹסוֹת הַלָּלוּ מְבָרֵךְ עָלָיו בְּרָכָה בִּפְנֵי עַצְמָהּ. וְכוֹס רִאשׁוֹן אוֹמֵר עָלָיו קִדּוּשׁ הַיּוֹם. כּוֹס שֵׁנִי קוֹרֵא עָלָיו אֶת הַהַגָּדָה. כּוֹס שְׁלִישִׁי מְבָרֵךְ עָלָיו בִּרְכַּת הַמָּזוֹן. כּוֹס רְבִיעִי גּוֹמֵר עָלָיו אֶת הַהַלֵּל וּמְבָרֵךְ עָלָיו בִּרְכַּת הַשִּׁיר. See the Brisker Rov on the rambam perek 7 (in sefer) who explains this aspect of the arba cosos at length.
It is true that chazal darshen in shemos raba (6:4) that the 4 cosos are c’neged the 4 leshonos of geulah, but, as R’ Belsky explains in the haggadah b’tzeis yisroel, this is just a remez of chazal and not at all the ikkur reason for 4 cosos.
The brisker rov (in sefer ibid) also explains that there is another demension of 4 cosos, which is the din shtiyas yayin. See R’ Belsky’s haggada on this as well, that drinking a lot of wine shows cheirus, as the gemara quoted early said אַרְבַּע כָּסֵי תִּיקְּנוּ רַבָּנַן דֶּרֶךְ חֵירוּת.