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ChortkovParticipant
I phrase the question once more (because I think we’ve heard each other’s opinions enough times already): In a case where you hear Loshon Horo revealing a Sakanah coming your way, and you believe it wholeheartedly without a shadow of doubt: Would you categorize the situation Safek Sakanah or Vadai Sakanah?
ChortkovParticipantChortkovParticipantOne proof of this is that the only reason why l”h is permitted in this case is so that he can remove himself from the danger.
I don’t see where you get an OBLIGATION from here; you see that it is permitted in order to allow him to save himself.
but he is OBLIGATED to protect himself despite his not being mekabel.
Where does this obligation stem from?
When in a scenario which constitutes a dangerous situation, you are OBLIGATED to get out of danger. If you have no knowledge of danger, you wouldn’t be OBLIGATED to escape. If you are not allowed to believe it, for all intents and purposes there is no Mokom Sakanah here.
It would have the laws of Sofek Sakanah, which are very different to Vadai Sakanah.
I phrase the question once more (because I think we’ve heard each other’s opinions enough times already): In a case where you hear Loshon Horo revealing a Sakanah coming your way, and you believe it wholeheartedly without a shadow of doubt: Would you categorize the situation Safek Sakanah or Vadai Sakanah?
ChortkovParticipantI wasn’t just being pedantic when I differentiated between “permitted” and “obligated”. There is a huge distinction which is very relevant to this discussion.
Like you pointed out, you are only allowed to be Choshesh, not mekabel. We are discussing someone who transgressed the halachah, and does believe it despite it being forbidden.
Is he OBLIGATED to remove himself from the Sakanah? If you would take your position, he has no knowledge of any danger, just an allowance to protect himself based on the information he has. But this doesn’t constitute a Halachic Mokom Sakanah. If, however, we would take the alternative position and say that lmaisah he believes it, then he is in a situation of sakanah and MUST remove himself.
April 19, 2017 8:49 am at 8:49 am in reply to: I think we need a new forum specially for GoGoGo’s mishugassen #1255041ChortkovParticipantHe was asked politely (and decreasingly less so) numerous times in 2015, when he surfaced. You can have a look at the threads from around then.
ChortkovParticipantI’m wondering if it had anything to do with the way I heard the story in the first place. I don’t want to say too many details because there are enough people who would easily work out what I am referring to, but when you hear choshuve people “Masiach Lefi Tumo” about specific stories in front of you, and you hear details of stories that eventually become public knowledge (court ledgers, recordings of court sessions, confessions), it is to me impossible not to believe it. Again, without details, I cannot explain to you how the details slipped my way were not toieles to me, although they were in context of toieles.
I have no doubt in my mind that the Rabbanim I mentioned above were telling the Truth, the Whole Truth and Nothing But the Truth. It adds that this “askan” clearly had an agenda and rabbanim backing him up and was rationalising to himself that he was in the right.
I may not have been allowed to believe it, but I don’t think I was capable of not believing it.
And I still hold by the original question – in this scenario, where I was totally convinced of somebodys actions (assur as it was), I witnessed the humiliation of a Talmid Chochom. And I still wonder if I was entitled to protest that.
ChortkovParticipantLU: I don’t have time to respond to everything you wrote, but these are my main points:
You wrote in your second to last post: “but now that I know it to be true”
The point is: You do NOT know it to be true.
I do now. During my ‘conversation’ with the “askan”, he admitted many of the accusations were true (although he tried to defend his position). There is no sofek anymore.
The only reason you are making the assumption that in that case, it would be mutar is because it’s to save your life, so you know that it must be permitted.
If you are not mekabel, you have no reason to believe yourself in any danger. (Probably doesn’t make a difference, not sure)
And I deliberately asked about being obligated, not permitted.
If the halacha says you can’t believe it, that means it is NOT true.
I’m still not convinced that being oiver Kabbalas Lashon Horo – even being mechuyav to get the information out of my system – will change my observational capacity as an avaryan who DID believe.
April 19, 2017 8:41 am at 8:41 am in reply to: The “Defend Something You Are Against” Challenge #1255034ChortkovParticipantI’ve definitely been getting practice in the CR!
Which, I suppose, should lead to more benefits:
1) Developing a thicker skin and not taking everything so personally
2) Developing a thicker skin and being able to accept insults from lesser individuals without it bothering you.
ChortkovParticipant“And I definitely don’t see why her minhagim should be the trendsetter.”
Why not if he doesn’t have a mesorah? As you wrote, if he has no mesorah, he can choose his minhagim, so wouldn’t the next best (to following his own mesorah) be following his wife’s (who does have a mesorah)? I don’t think that he has to if he doesn’t want to, but wouldn’t that be the logical choice?
You’re right that the most ideal choice for him to choose would probably be his
wifes Minhagim. But it isn’t that her minhagim bind him in a case where he has no mesorah; he may choose his own “derech” and she would still be bound to follow him. It may be convenient, considerate and accommodating of him to allow her to keep her own Mesorah, but it doesn’t become the default [halachically] when he doesn’t have his own.If we are talking about personal preference, my point is obviously moot, as is yours in the most case. If we are talking about Halachic precedence, her minhagim would have no more relevance than the next door neighbours.
April 16, 2017 11:57 am at 11:57 am in reply to: Loshon Hora shittas different than the Chofetz Chaim #1254570ChortkovParticipantI don’t know if an act performed publicly is considered “public arena” by somebody whose job isn’t to be public.
If the heter is based on אומן על אומנתו, then that could only be for someone who is a public agent.
ChortkovParticipantAnd we’ve gone and ruined Sam2’s Yom Tov again.
Oh well.
April 16, 2017 10:14 am at 10:14 am in reply to: Yidden who like homemade Pesach cakes better than yearround cakes #1254525ChortkovParticipantAt least the one that I had after the sedar was that good.
I don’t mean to accuse or make you feel bad, but you may want to look into the Halachos of eating after the Seder – or, more specifically, after eating the Afikoman.
ChortkovParticipantThe Nefesh Hachaim writes that a Jew doing an Aveirah causes much more damage than Pharoah, Haman Nevuchadnetzar and Titus etc. They can only affect this world, whereas the action of a Yid has the power to affect other (much more important) worlds. So, in a manner of speaking, we are more dangerous than Hizbullah.
April 16, 2017 8:00 am at 8:00 am in reply to: Loshon Hora shittas different than the Chofetz Chaim #1254499ChortkovParticipantI have heard b’sheim R’ Chaim that he argued with the Chafetz Chaim about discussing public figures – he felt that this like אומן על אומנתו, and you may discuss anything a public figure does in the public arena. Does anyone know a mekor for this?
ChortkovParticipantI don’t think so. If someone doesn’t have their own Mesorah, they are permitted (for the better part) to choose their own “minhagim”. (This is limited to certain cases, some things have a default in Halachah unless you have a Mesorah differently)
I don’t see why the wife wouldn’t have to follow the husband like any other wife.
And I definitely don’t see why her minhagim should be the trendsetter.
ChortkovParticipantIf you DO believe but shouldn’t, is that enough to be a firsthand witness?
No, I wouldn’t think so.
Let me rephrase a question I posed earlier. If I overhear a conversation between two people talking Loshon Horo about a third, and from the illegally obtained information, I ascertain that I am in a position of danger – let say, for arguments sake, from the third guy who wishes to kill me.
I was not allowed to hear that information. I should not believe the information (and for arguments sake, let’s work with the assumption that this is the Halachah in the above scenario), yet I do.
Would you say I am mechuyav to remove myself from the danger (by escaping), or would I be allowed to stay put because the information I recieved was illegitimately obtained?
(I don’t mean this like presenting evidence in court that was obtained without a warrant etc.; of course that is a foolproof knowledge. If am talking specifically in situations where you are not allowed to believe)
[I instinctively think that I would be mechuyav to save myself from danger, yet in my own case I am not convinced, although I cannot pinpoint the difference.]
ChortkovParticipantI think you (and I) had originally thought the issue (or one of the issues) was whether or not you’re allowed to be mekabel something even if it’s not l’toeles at the time but it becomes l’toeles later on.
That was also discussed, first mentioned here. The issue I presented in the opening post was not about something not-ltoeles becoming toeles, but about a different issue entirely. I quote:
Now that I believed that backstory, I witnessed firsthand the degradation, and had a licence/obligation to go and protest. But what I saw only meant anything because I believed something I had no licence to believe.
Do I say that על פי תורה, this knowledge is forbidden, and for all intents and purposes, I do not know this, or do we say that I was עובר the איסור – but now that I know it to be true, I witnessed a degradation of a Talmid Chochom?
ChortkovParticipantFor obvious reasons, I will not answer the question of whether the Chofetz Chaim was frummer than the Vilna Gaon.
You sound intelligent enough to understand that DY was not asking your opinion to rate two Gedoilim but was aptly pointing out a basic discrepancy in your posts.
ChortkovParticipantHis own decision not to was a personal stringency
But in the absence of such a mesora, there is no advantage (halachically) to refrain from eating them
Open your eyes, Mik5, you are contradicting yourself. How can you say something is a personal ‘stringency’ if it has no basis and is not in any way a ma’aleh?
Forgive me, but I want to reask my question: If somebody made a Kabbalah b’Peh b’Hoketz not to eat Gebroktz on Pesach, would you categorize that as a Neder L’dvar Mitzvah?
ChortkovParticipantYou don’t see the point in being as frum as the Steipler?
If you would be מקבל on yourself not to eat gebrokts, do you think that would be a Neder L’dvar Mizvah? The Chasam Sofer did.
For the record, I also eat gebrokts. But not for the reasons you stated.
ChortkovParticipantNo gebrots (I don’t hold of this one, as I have no intention of being frummer than the Vilna Gaon)
Just an observation – why did you feel the need to point out that you don’t keep this one because you wouldn’t want to be frummer than the Vilna Gaon more than the others? Do you keep all the other ‘chumros’ you mentioned?
And is the reason you don’t keep it really because you don’t want to be frummer than the Vilna Gaon?
ChortkovParticipantRav Belsky said that you have to be certain beyond all doubt that he is really a goy.
Because it is a רוב שיכול לברר?
ChortkovParticipantAre roiv people who look like goyim and are unashamedly buying bagels, yidden?
ChortkovParticipantIs anyone going to quote the Nefesh Hachaim at the beginning of Shaar Aleph?
Although, of course, that’s not what The Honourable Mr Klein was referring to.
ChortkovParticipantWhat is the reason behind the chumra?
Ask any Mashgiach – foods that are processed have so many more avenues to go wrong.
ChortkovParticipantYou are not allowed to touch Chometz.
I don’t think you have to be חושש that a woman who appears to be a Goy looking to buy chometz on Pesach is a Jewess. There is a רוב goyim in the city.
April 13, 2017 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm in reply to: Question about sacrifices when Mashiach comes #1253998ChortkovParticipantR’ Yonasan Eiberchitz writes an interesting compromise in the Haftorah to Emor:
ולכן יהיה כהנים בני צדוק כה”ג והבכורים כהנים הדיוטים וא”ש.
April 13, 2017 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm in reply to: Question about sacrifices when Mashiach comes #1253991ChortkovParticipantA quick google search turned this up:
ס’ “אוצרות רבותינו מבריסק” ע’ ס”ג
April 13, 2017 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm in reply to: Question about sacrifices when Mashiach comes #1253981ChortkovParticipantI have seen brought down that the source of the Or HaChaim is this:
כל מקום שנאמר לי אינו זז לעולם לא בעולם הזה ולא לעולם הבא..בבכורות כתיב “כי לי כל בכור” –
ויקרא רבה ב בApril 13, 2017 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm in reply to: This will save you from a safek issur d’oraysa #1253974ChortkovParticipantIf the gadol hador says that it is an issur d’oraysa, there is nothing further to discuss
Respectfully, you would be right if other gedolim didn’t argue. There are enough legitimate Gedoilim who are matter smoking. See שמירת שבת כהילכתה.
Can we call it a Machlokes HaPoskim?
ChortkovParticipantMe thinks that attempting #CRDSYAC here would get my SN blocked and this thread shut down.
Correct. I’ve already got my sights on it even without you doing that…
ChortkovParticipantI do, and I make a brachah.
Where I live, many people do. Most Nusach Ashkenaz shuls do, and the Shtibelach are mix and match. Of course, anybody slightly Chassidish for more than one generation doesn’t, because al pi Kaballah you are Chayav Misah.
April 13, 2017 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm in reply to: Question about sacrifices when Mashiach comes #1253966ChortkovParticipantThere is a two volume sefer (very small and thin) called מעתיקי שמועה, where they are מלקט various Chiddushim of the Brisker Rav from his Talmidim – from Shailos UTeshuvos, from Sefarim al haShas and other sources. I saw it there.
The sefer is out of print, so it is quite hard to get hold of. It is very possible I’ll have access over Shabbos, so I will try look for the original source.
ChortkovParticipantI am aware that I needed to be a firsthand witness.
The question was about a case where I believed something wholeheartedly although I shouldn’t have. I was and still am 100% certain that the story was true (I have successfully managed to be דן לכף זכות on most of it, but I find it impossible to NOT believe it. Especially with evidence from all sides. It’s not exactly something he denies, it is something he believes he was correct to do.)
If you DO believe but shouldn’t, is that enough to be a firsthand witness?
You’re above quote doesn’t answer that.
ChortkovParticipantI think he says explicitly that you can quote someone by name. He brings examples from Amoiroim (R’ Papa bsheim Rava?) who bent the truth when quoting other Amoiroim who never said such a thing.
April 13, 2017 6:42 am at 6:42 am in reply to: Question about sacrifices when Mashiach comes #1253783ChortkovParticipant(*Male) – When I wrote that only the males will be Kohanim Gedolim, I said this with reservation.
There is an enormous Machlokes Rishonim to define the P’sul of אשה in the Avoidas Hamikdash. Some learn that every woman is passul because she is a זרה – the Kedushas Kehunah was given only to the male progeny of Ahron. Others learn that there is a specific p’sul relating only to women, unrelated to that of Zar (non-Kohen). [One major difference being whether a Bas Kohen who does the Avoidah is Chayev Misah]
If the whole impedition is because she is not a Kohen, then in a time when all non-Kohanim are allowed to perform the Avoidah, women may also be permitted.
Still, I find it difficult to believe that women will be doing the Avoidah.
April 13, 2017 6:08 am at 6:08 am in reply to: Question about sacrifices when Mashiach comes #1253790ChortkovParticipantInteresting to note that we davened to day for the Kohanim to return to the Duchan, for the Leviim to return to their singing – no mention was made of anyone else performing any Avoidah.
The Or Hachaim brings it down in a couple of places (Vayechi 49.28, Bamidbar 3.45, :
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=39995&st=&pgnum=20
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38295&st=&pgnum=143&hilite=I can’t remember where the Daas Zekeinim is.
See also Moadim V’Zmanim Ch”7, Si’ 169. (Not on Hebrewbooks.org)
ChortkovParticipantAlthough any Hebrew comes up as ?????????, the real words come up on the google search page. So if you want to work out what something really says, you can try manoeuvre it to come up as a google search result.
April 13, 2017 5:39 am at 5:39 am in reply to: Question about sacrifices when Mashiach comes #1253782ChortkovParticipantI know that it’s the Kohanim who are in charge of slaughtering the animals for sacrifices, but are there going to be any jobs for the non-Kohanim in management of these sacrifices?
Many people are under the impression that the firstborns will revert to their original status of Priesthood when the Third Temple is rebuilt. The Brisker Rav zt”l held that this was blasphemous [and contravened the principle of faith that the Torah will never be changed nor will there be another Torah forevermore] and incorrect. Somebody showed me recently a דעת זקנים מבעלי תוס who does say that the firstborns will get the avoidah. (I understand this to be in addition to the Kohanim).
The Ba’al HaTurim (Yisro) on the Pasuk ואתם תהיו לי ממלכת כהנים וגוי קדוש writes that the original plan was for us ALL to be כהנים גדולים, and we lost that right by the sin of the Golden Calf. But לעתיד לבא this Halachah will be renewed, and all of Klal Yisroel (male*) will be Kohanim Gedolim. I don’t know how literally this is meant to be taken.
April 12, 2017 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm in reply to: How many times did you say Sh’monah Esreh tonight? #1253626ChortkovParticipantBump
ChortkovParticipantOnly joking.
(Late night)
April 10, 2017 11:15 am at 11:15 am in reply to: Yidden who like homemade Pesach cakes better than yearround cakes #1253499ChortkovParticipantI have never tasted a Pesach cake that was any good.
Oh! Come around, sample some of ours. Their excellent.
Oh, you don’t mish? Didn’t mean to offend you. Sorry.
ChortkovParticipantOn a minor further note, by a happy coincidence I was present at the event mentioned in the OP. Yekke2 has done well to camouflage some of the details and ensure anonymity for all involved. but as a witness, I personally cannot really understand yekke2’s quandary, as by all accounts his actions were suitable to the occasion, and to the to my eyes undoubted slight against the Talmid Chochom concerned.
Thank you for your vote of confidence. The Shaila still stands, however – your haskamah was probably also based on, forgive me, Kabbalas Loshon Hara. If you had never heard any stories about the ‘askan’, could you have seen any form of humiliation?
I’m wondering if I was now Oiver Loshon Horo by starting this thread – by writing that it was a third time offence, two of which you almost certainly didn’t witness!
ChortkovParticipantThe Gemara in Bechoros (8a) writes about creatures called “dolphinim” (דולפנים) which called בני ימא.
Rashi explains:דגים יש בים שחציין צורת אדם וחציין צורת דג ובלע״ז שריינ״א
April 9, 2017 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm in reply to: The “Defend Something You Are Against” Challenge #1253420ChortkovParticipantMy first attempt at the #CRDSYAC resulted in a closed thread. (I tried to direct the thread into a positive light by calling #CRDSYAC, but people seemed more interested in presenting their own opinions than joining the challenge)
I think I managed to see and present a different perspective to what I would have instinctively thought, and it was definitely less judgemental.
I declare this operation a success.
ChortkovParticipantPlus I would assume that it’s only permitted in a situation in which you feel that it’s really important to convince someone of this truth.
I think he says it in relevance to Limmud Hatorah as well – if you are arguing over a sugya and you are convinced of the validity of your claim (which can often happen without an explicit source), you any lie and pretend to have seen it somewhere else. I haven’t seen it for some time, I’ll bli neder look it up.
ChortkovParticipantJoseph: A disclaimer – I have not learnt Hilchos Tzedak (other than a quick perusal); I did not intend to make a halachic argument. My point was just that if we are mechuyav to reinstate what we consider to be an unnecessary lap of luxury, we certainly should fargin the lifestyle. It was a response to the CRDSYAC (CR Defend Something You’re Against Challenge), so I didn’t give it much thought.
ChortkovParticipantI don’t think that would be a deciding factor in determining if YOUR actions were halachically correct.
No. But it may be a deciding factor whether I need to ask him mechilah.
However, I interpret mimicking as a snide way of saying that the person does not speak properly.
It depends on the context and the intentions of the mimic. When I quote my Rosh Yeshiva shlit”a (who hasa dsitinct way of speaking) to any past talmidim of his, I adopt his voice and speaking manner, and they love it. This is not a sign of disrespect at all, but a sign of endearment. I have, however, mimicked people in a derogatory fashion too. This would be assur.
I heard from a talmid that R’ Shloime Wolbe zt”l said about himself that he was never mevazeh a Talmid Chochom, except for mimicking, which he would do. Apparently, he was an excellent mimic.
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