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Rashi in Sanhedrin 51b writes that Capital Punishment will be reinstated after the coming of Moshiach.
I believe the Meshech Chochmo in Parshas Shoftim (I’ll bli neder look it up) explains that there are two types of redemption, depending on whether we merit the early redemption or if we have to wait until the end of the golus without being zoiche, and I think he differentiates between the two regarding the possibility of sin.
What are the norms?
That’s a strange thing to argue without a lot of sociological description…
Let me guess – Chaim’s fathers family and his mother’s family?
I am from his fathers family.
Hah, I may see him before that.
Wonder what that refers to?
Hello Geordie613!!
Just saw your response from back then.
I think you’re spot on about who I am. Have you identified me personally or just my family name?
As to my cousin Chaim – I have more than one cousin Chaim. I imagine you are referring to Manchester raised one; I haven’t seen him in a long time. But I will ask him!!
Do we know each other?
Hah, I may see him before that. Did he drop any hints where he learns?
I did learn in Gateshead for a couple of years, I am now in Eretz Yisroel. I have (accidentally) dropped some vague hints about where I learn – and it’s not the Mir.Footsteps is almost irrelevant. In the 12 years they’ve been around they’ve handled about 100 people over a period of over a decade. And most of those 100 were effectively not frum before they hooked up with the reshoyim at Footsteps.
I can’t tell you about the US, but in the UK, the sister program of Footsteps is not irrelevant. I know firsthand of victims who were still Shoimer Torah uMitzvos – albeit in a fragile, shattered framework – until Footsteps got their hands on them.
It is common to bash the customary gift slinging from Chosson to Kallah and vice versas, and to reassure friends and families that these things are not musts, they are unnecessary, and that you are doing society a favour by not conforming.
This is not true.
Of course, there is no obligation to conform to societies standards. But your kallah/chosson is expecting to be treated at worst no less than the norm. Failing to live up to expected standards displays a lack of sensitivity or care. If you have an open enough relationship, or are the type to recompesate in your own way so that she knows you do care, then fine, do what you like. But if she is going to feel unloved and devalued, you may want to re-weigh the gains versus the losses.
Additionally – it is evident from Tos. that even an עבירה בשוגג will not happen, because Piggul can be inadvertent too, and still Tos. writes that it will not be relevant.
Does that lead to the conclusion that the penalties and punishments (whether enforced by Beis Din Shel Maata or by the Beis Din Shel Maala) that the Torah specifies for various sins done by Jews will be inapplicable in that era?
The Gemara in Zevachim 55a – discussing the disqualification of Piggul in Korbonos – asks “הלכתא למשיחא”, seemingly bothered by the fact that we discuss halachos that are only relevant after the coming of Moshiach. (There are numerous difficulties with this gemara; I just want to bring out one point:) Tosfos lists numerous places where the Gemara clearly does not have this issue, and a couple of places where the Gemara does.
One of Tosfos’ tirutzim is that the Gemara only raises this issue when discussing Halachic conclusion of issues that are only relevant with the fulfillment of two criterion: (a) after the coming of Moshiach (b) through a Jew sinning.
The Tosfos Yeshanim and the Ritva both explain this by adding שאז יהיו כל ישראל צדיקים – in that period, sin will be obsolete, and therefore these Halachos will never be relevant again. (Tos. in Yuma write similarly to what they write in Zevachim, although the wording there is clear that this isn’t their intention.)
If I remember correctly, Tos. discusses Misas Bes Din as one of his examples.
So I’m signing out for the last time this Bein Hazmanim.
Thank you to all the posters who keep this place meaningful, upbeat and interesting. Thank you to all the moderators for giving us the medium for Kosher discussions, and for allowing me/us to test your patience. I apologise for posts that were too long or incoherent.
Lilmod Ulelameid – More than once this month I had something I was about to write, and I retracted last minute because it wasn’t Loshon Tov. I think you can take credit for both of them. I am definitely more careful now than I once was. And thank you for taking interest in my posts and responding, especially in the Kabbalas Loshon Horo thread.
I won’t be back before Tisha Ba’av, and let’s hope by then, we will all be in Yerushalayim HaBenuya celebrating the autherntic Geulah.
Someone did that, Winnie. I can’t remember who, but there is an albulm available with a lot of oldies sung nicely with decent music. I think his name was Mendelowitz (the one who features on Rechnitz’s albulms, I can’t recall his name just now).
Mod 29 – If one moderator approves a thread, can another moderator not take it down? I haven’t had time to read through everything here, but if you felt the need to make that declaration, you evidently wouldn’t have approved it yourself?
England isn’t big enough for so many different types of labels. In America, there are enough of each type to give it a name, find themselves some Rabbanim, open Yeshivos tailor made to their needs. In London, there are not that many high schools. For boys, there are two Yeshivish/Heimish schools [Pardes House and Beis Hamedrash Elyon], another one which less Heimish, less Yeshivish, more anglicised and is a matter of opinion whether it is as Frum [Menorah Grammar], and then one school which is the closest England has to Modern Orthodox and plenty of people in the school don’t keep Shabbos [Hasmonean]. (From what I understand, there are differrent sections in the school for different levels of Yiddishkeit, ranging from non-existent to above average.)
Although we have all different types of Yidden here, they are labelled a lot less. Another point is, because we don’t have the numbers, everyone is forced into some level of conformity one way or the other. Having bigger numbers justifies people to live the way they want.
There are definitely people like you mentioned. (Of course, the description was slightly vague and can apply to different levels, but we have those levels too.)
Just Curious; Doesn’t Really Make A Difference.
Mean? Didn’t realise people get upset about these things. I’ll explain the only abbreviations I’ve used.
Coffee Room Defend Something You Are Against Challenge.
Keep The Coffee Room Interesting Movement.
I’m sure it was. Just wondering what it stands for.
JCDRMAD.
So this doesn’t refer to religious level or haskafah (eg making a point of integrating with Modern World), does refer to sociology.
Geordie613 – I’m growing more and more curious to know who you are. How many Gateshead born South Africans are there who were 10 years old in 1985 and now live in Manchester? My father lived in Yeoville, my grandparents having gone by ship from Germany years before. They now live in Manchester too.
These rabbonim must be aware of the psak that rav Chaim Kanievskey made; If one parks in a handicapped parking space and runs into a shul and davens Shacharis he MUST DAVEN AGAIN!
Do you have a source for this??!
FAEBM – Er… What does that stand for?
So basically, Yeshivish but not in learning?
yekke2, I guess. That is also what I am looking for.
Aren’t you looking for a boy in learning?
Yekke2, yes.
Huh?
In other words, someone who went to Yeshivas that are considered Chareidi as opposed to Modern Orthodox and has Chareidi Rabbanim, but watches movies,etc, and/or makes a point of partaking in the secular world (as opposed to someone who works simply because he needs a parnassah or is not the type who can sit and learn all day).
That sounds more accurate. Those who go to work because they cannot stay in Kollel for one reason or another are not in any way less Yeshivish. Your description does sound more ‘modern’, but less ‘yeshivish’. The way you put it, somebody from a Yeshivish background who is not Yeshivish himself?
Yekke, you had written that you deny that Eretz Yisrael today has any semblance of Yerushalayim habenuyah. That is very different from stating that it is a shadow of what it will be.4
I think that is just semantics. Regardless, what I meant to say was that the Yerushalayim we have today pales in comparison to Yerushalayim Habenuyah in every way possible.
but if I understood what you wrote above, it sounds like everyone holds that Yerushalayim has some measure of Kedusha today.
Although it’s probably true, I didn’t write that above. Earlier, I brought the Machlokes Rishonim whether Kedushas Eretz Yisroel continues even today. The Rambam holds it does, the Ra’avad holds it doesn’t (“סוד ה’ ליראיו”), and Tos’ differentiates between Kiddushas HaMikdash and Kedushas Ha’aretz, that Yerushalayim is bottel but the Mikdash isn’t.
This Kedusha is relevant to Terumos, Maaseros, Achilas Kodshim, Kedushas Har Habayis (practically nogea to the prohibition to ascend the Temple Mount whilst impure), and other things. It is a further discussion whether the mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is connected to the Kedushas Haaretz.
I don’t have enough clarity or knowledge to give a confident conclusion, but I’m positive that even those who hold that Kedushas Haaretz is bottel agree that there is somewhat a Kedusha which other lands don’t have.
The link I posted discussed השראת השכינה by the Kosel, whether this applies during Golus or not.
The goal of our tznius is to preserve the dignity of women, enabling us to look at them as people not as objects. Although the allure of חיצוניות blurs our vision, our aim is to be able to see the פנימיות without the superficial exterior blocking it. Tznius is about giving them identity, not destroying it. Or, if you like, about shifting the focus from body to self.
Here’s a thought I had on Rashi Parshas Lech Lecha: Rashi writes on הנה נא ידעתי כי אשה יפת מראה את that עד עכשיו לא הכיר בה מתוך צניעות שביניהם. What changed now? The Meforshim bring the Midrash that Avrohom saw her reflection in the river. If you examine Rashi, he is not saying that Avrohom never saw her until now; the Gemara writes explicitly that it is assur to marry without looking first. Rashi doesn’t say לא הסתכל בה, he writes לא הכיר בה. Of course Avrohom saw her. But מתוך צניעות שביניהם, when Avrohom looked at her, he saw right past the exterior directly into the פנימיות. Avrohom never focused on חיצוניות.
When faced by a reflection in the river, however, this changed. A reflection is only חיצוניות, without the depth of פנימיות. Suddenly Avrohom was struck by the blinding exterior.
The face is the only part of the body where you can see פנימיות. (No coincidence that it is called פנים). This is the only part of the body which woman do not need to cover up (except for the hands, which is a separate issue), because hiding the פנים is last thing צניעות aims to do.
Winnie – You didn’t really date yourselves; my parents weren’t even married in 1985, and I know and love that song. Real classics stay around for generations.
Aren’t you looking for a boy in learning?
We see that the fact the Tamar covered her face is considered praiseworthy by Chazal.
But I don’t care, because I’m convinced enough of the validity of my own practices that I am unperturbed
Can I turn the tables for a second? Why are you so convinced of the validity of your practice if Chazal praise Tamar for covering her face?
So basically, Yeshivish but not in learning?
http://hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_14509_40.pdf
ציץ אליעזר ח”י סי’ א
<<hums to himself, not willing to get Avi K started again on Israel and how it is better than Eretz Yisroel>>
I definitely do differentiate between ideological issues and yetzer issues.
Could be!
I’ve never heard of Modern Yeshivish. Can anybody define that for me?
And one more day until our return to reality.
Yekke – is it possible that it’s because you have heard people speaking negatively about these groups? As opposed to others whom people talk about being dan l’kaf zchus?
People talk negatively about almost every group in Klal Yisroel respectively. And the ma’alos of this group are undeniable. Yet I still feel an inexplicable aversion to them.
Contempt is also too strong a word. Disdain is so far the most accurate description of my feelings.
When one of the magazines (Mishpacha? Binah?) interviewed them
I think it was the Ami. Mishpachah and Binah wouldn’t feature them.
מאי אהני לן רבנן
– Avi K
I wasn’t advocating it, Joseph, I just saw the thread title before it was deleted and remembered an old thread of The Wolfs.
It was a joke.
LU – WinnieThePooh wrote all there is to say.
Yes, EY is like no other place, there is kedusha and Torah and it is our Home. But we do not have the Beis Hamikdash, the shechina is in galus and Israeli society and government are far from ideal. EY as it is today is a mere shadow of what it should be. I think there may be a greater danger for a Jew in EY to forget this than one living in Norfolk.
As to Kedushas Yerushalayim, I think that is a Machlokes Rishonim. There is a Machlokes Ramba”m Ra’avad if Kedusha Rishona Kidsho Leasid Lovo or not. Some Rishonim (Tos) hold that even though Kidsho Leosid Lovo, that is only Kedushas Habayis, but Kedushas Ha’azarah is בטל.
The Gemara says about the Kosel that לא זזה שכינה מכותל המערבי. It is the accepted position that this is to be taken literally. However, honesty requires me to point out that there are ראשונים who write that this is not true either, and השב שכינתך לציון עירך is something we still await. The Radva”z holds this way. I think the Tzitz Eliezer at the beginning of Chelek 10 brings the various positions; it might be Chelek 12. I will bli neder post a link.
Wolf – You’re thread didn’t get through, but I’d recommend a dose of R’ Yackov Emden.
I suppose you’ll have to develop a thicker skin so as not to imagine that you’re being insulted by lesser individuals like myself.
<snort>
You’re all confused.
</snort>WinnieThePooh – Although you’re point sounds true, I don’t think it is being sparked by inferiority complex. While I get upset about all sorts of public sinners, I don’t feel a שנאה towards them. When I see someone driving on Shabbos in Yerushalayim, I am distreesed, maybe even angry, but I don’t hate him. Or in LU’s example, people who dress provocatively and immodestly do not invoke the same feeling inside me.
I think hatred is the wrong word anyway; it is more disdain or contempt.
There is exactly one other group in Klal Yisroel who elicit this feeling in me, and in that case too I cannot trace the source. They are wonderful, upstanding people who do a lot of tremendously good work for Yiddishkeit around the world, and I cannot think of a rational reason to scorn them. There may be members of their sect who have questionable beliefs, but on the whole most of them are really good people – and אעפ”כ, when I see them in action, something stirs inside. It’s bothered me for a long time.
(This post is not discussing ideal feelings or reactions, but the reality of my emotions.)
Yes.
No.
Why are you so convinced that there is Loshon Horo when talking about an anonymous online persona? Neither the writer nor the reader knows the person you are talking about.
Obviously, there is a minority of posters who people do know in real life who may be reading.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lashon-hora-in-the-cr/#post-1073872edited
It is very likely to be unnecessary and the source of such ideas most probably comes from the wrong place. Consequently, no legitimate [contemporary] Rav would mandate the wearing of a burqa.
Nevertheless, is the outrage against them justified?
From personal experience – when I walk past these people in Meah Shearim, it really annoys me. I see them and I have what can only be honestly described as a שנאה. It bothers me, because I don’t know where it comes from. From a rational perspective, they are not doing anything wrong, they are just fools [and well meaning fools at that]. And I don’t usually feel hatred towards fools.
One of the two times The Steipler zt”l hit R’ Chaim Kanievsky shlit”a as a child was when there were no chairs available in shul, and he sat on the floor for Tachanun. He explained that the Halachah is that one must sit, and due to the lack of chairs, he had to sit on the floor. Supposedly, the Steipler hit him and told him to “be normal”.
Yekke, by definition someone in EY is not in galut. This is also apikorsut. You are denying that we have a land at all.
I deny that the Yerushalayim we have now – even according to the Rishonim that Kiddushas Hair Lo Batlah – has any semblance to Yerushalayim HaBenuyah.
The title “Don’t build more galuyot” is a fundamental mistake. Those in Eretz Yisroel are unfortunately still in Golus too.