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ChortkovParticipant
LU: #1334936 – You are correct. A brocho rishonah is kayam until something is mafsik the achila – either a hesech hada’as, a shinui mokom, or other form of siluk. I was convinced that you (Post 1334343) were suggesting otherwise – and if you weren’t, I don’t understand your “support”.
These are the current sfeikos:
1. I am aware that it is a machlokes haPoskim if Al Hamichya can patter the rice. There are two different scenarios where this shailah arises: (a) you eat rice, and make al hamichya, and (b) you eat cake and rice, and you make al hamichya on the cake; would that work on the rice as well. In both these cases, the question is whether even the poskim who hold that it would work would agree that if you specifically stipulate that the brocho should not be on the rice, do you need a borei nefashos.
2. Does a bracha achrona have anything to do with a bracha rishona, or are they totally independent chiyuvim . I posit that they are totally independent, although I have no definitive proof.
3. Is making a brocho achrona inherently a siluk from the brocho rihsona? Again, I would say not. If I make a mezonos and shehakol (on cake and shnitzel respectively) and make al hamichya on the cake, I think it’s obvious that I can continue eating the shnitzel. The fact that al hamichya is made on a food item which happens to have the same brocho rishona is, in my mind, irrelevant.
4. You keep mentioning “unless you do something considered a hefsek”. Simply deciding to stop eating constitutes a hefsek. When you finish eating and bentch, and you don’t have in mind to continue eating, I think that would be a hefsek.
5. The difference between whether you have started eating or not: In a case where you need greira, I can hear to differentiate. In a case where you don’t (and let’s assume that our case doesn’t), why should it make a difference? You made a brocho, and you have no form of siluk. Why must you have started to eat??
ChortkovParticipantNowadays, anyone who disagrees with you isn’t just different or misguided, they are a bad person who must be ostracized/destroyed. Thoughts?
Okay, I’ll bite.
When it comes to opinions or taste, acceptance and tolerance are the keywords. You have no right to impose your views on anyone else, and while you don’t have to respect other people’s views, you do have to accept that he has the rights to his own opinion.
When it comes to morality, religion and anything with a universal truth, this is not the case. While you can’t judge, and you certainly can’t blame, you don’t have to – and often musn’t – accept or tolerate. If anyone is doing something which contravenes Halachah or contravenes Rotzon Hashem, you have every right to condemn the action, and in many cases (for a whole host of reasons) an obligation to protest. In these inyanim, there is no “mind your own business”, there no “live and let live”, and certainly no “respecting his opinion”.
Must they be “ostracized/destroyed”? That obviously depends. Every situation needs to be weighed individually. There are almost always disadvantages and collateral damage by ostracizing and destroying. Sometimes you have to do it anyway. Sometimes you will lose more than you’re gonna gain.
ChortkovParticipantDY – I’m mistaken; he brings Tos Kiddushin 32 in Be’er Mayim Chaim Klal 4.46.
ChortkovParticipant@Avi K:
Three points —
1) Not every case of toieles involves לא תעמוד על דם רעך.2) Even in cases where there is this issur, the klalim of l’toieles still apply. If you don’t fulfil the conditions, you are forbidden to say. The Chofetz Chaim writes that if you have something against the person you’re talking about, even when it is l’toieles you may not say. I asked a Rav (not l’maisah) – if somebody asks you shidduch information about someone who has all sorts of issues, and you have something against them – what should you do? You are not allowed to say Loshon Hora, but they’re going to get married! He told me that he asked R’ Elyashiv zt”l this shailah, and R’ Elyashiv told him that “you dance at the Chasuna”. If you are not allowed to say, there is nothing you can do about it.
3) You only know that it a situation of לא תעמוד על דם רעך if you believe him. What ne’emanus does he have?
ChortkovParticipantI was approaching the issue from the first angle, and Meno & Yekke2 were approaching it from the second angle (as far as I can tell – they can feel free to correct me if I’m wrong).
I deliberately didn’t explain any angles of the shailah when I posted, I just said the story. I wanted to hear how others deal with it. Others were discussing the first angle, and I responded, although I am more than confident that it isn’t true. I am certain that the brocho achroina has nothing to do with the brocho rishonah.
As far as hesech hada’as or siluk is concernced, I posit that the pashtus is that when you have kavanah to continue eating, this doesn’t constitute a siluk. I find it a chiddush (but understandable) to say that a brocho is inherently a hesech hada’as.
For both of these reasons, I would happily eat without making a new brocho. The only sofek I have is in a case which needs greira (E.g. when you don’t have specific kavanah, you just make a brocho with a lot of food in front of you), whether you may continue eating.
(And I still don’t see any chiluk whether you have started eating or not – except for the greira issue. If the sevara is that once you are mesiach da’as from the choshuv you cannot be megarer eino choshuv, it could be that once you have begun eating the rice, you can be megarer onto that. Hmm.)
ChortkovParticipantDY – Be’er Mayim Chaim, Klal 6.42
ChortkovParticipantDr Pepper, anyone?
ChortkovParticipantDY: It’s not lifnei iver, because although the listener has to be choshesh that it wasn’t actually said b’apei t’lasa, the informer knows that it in fact was, and that the listener was not actually oiver on anything.
This doesn’t actually work. It is assur to be machshil someone to do something that he thinks is assur even if you know it to be muttar. Tosfos in Kiddushim (32?) explains this because נתכוון לאכול בשר חזיר ועלה בידו בשר טלה צריך כפרה, and to be machshil someone in this is Lifnei Iver. The Ritv”a there seemingly argues with Tosfos, but the C”C paskens like Tosfos in a few places, both in Mishne Berura and in Chofetz Chaim in regards to Loshon Horo.
ChortkovParticipantLU: 3. Later on (Birur Halacha, 37/2), he writes that if someone ate regular mezonos and rice and he made an al hamichya on the regular mezonos and he wants to continue eating the rice(the OP’s case), it is a safek as to whether or not he can continue eating the rice w/o a bracha, since al hamichya exempts rice b’dieved, so it’s considered that he has a “siluk” (removal) from the rice, and t/f (since it’s a safek), he must do one of the things that one does whenever he has a safek brachos.
Thank you for the Mareh Mokom.
It doesn’t sound like in his case he was mechaven that the al hamichya shouldn’t go on the rice. I think there is a big mokom to differentiate.
The Sefer I was quoting is called נהמת דוב, written by a Rav in London.
ChortkovParticipantIt has to be that way (according to this svara that the bracha of mezonos is still “chal” on the rice even after the al hamichya) Otherwise, anytime someone makes a Mezonos on a regular mezonos product and he has in mind that his bracha should cover any foods he will eat that have the bracha on Mezonos (as the Rema says that one should have in mind), then after he makes an al hamichya, if he wants to eat rice at some point later on, he wouldn’t make a new bracha, since his original bracha is still “chal” since the al himichya didn’t end it. That is ridiculous! I don’t think that anyone would say that.
I disagree. According to your rationale, the reason you cannot continue eating forever (as long as you haven’t made a ברכה אחרונה) is because the brocho is only chal when you eat it – so if you make a brocho on a large challah, and begin eating it, can you continue eating the challah without a new brocho tomorrow? Obviously not.
A brocho (according to almost everyone) is not chal on a food item, it is chal on an achila. This achila is with a bracha, so is muttar. Any form of hesech hada’as will stop the effect of the brocho, not because you were mesiach da’as from the brocho, but because the achila is now a different achila. It loses the tziruf.
I do wonder, however, what would be if you make a mezonos with two cakes in front of you; a chocolate cake and a marble cake (both mezonos, both al hamichya), with specific da’as to eat both, and make an al hamichya on the chocolate cake with specific intention to immediately continue eating the marble cake. Was this what you meant to say? It is very possibly the same shailah there.
ChortkovParticipantDY: Yes, but in your case you didn’t need to come on to g’reira.
It seems to be a machlokes which cases need g’reira and which cases don’t. Would you differentiate between a case where they were both on the table but you didn’t specifically think about the rice, and a case where you had da’as specifically for the rice, in regards to our shailah?
ChortkovParticipantI guess that first question you need to answer – are you discussing a mix in the student body, or a mix in the style of Yeshiva’s running?
ChortkovParticipantCan you please find out more about lakewood mesivta?
What would you like to know about them?
Novominsk is in the US.
ChortkovParticipantI think another point to clarify is why when you make a Mezonos on a pastry do you not need to make a beracha on the rice.
If one has in front of him an apple and a grape (shivas haminim), and he makes a bracha on the apple (less choshuv), the Rem”a paskens that he must make a new bracha on the grape unless he had specific kavana that the brocho should be on the grape. The Beis Yosef explains that “eino choshuv” cannot patter the “choshuv” with “greira”.
When you make a bracha on a grape, the reason you may eat the apple is because of “greira”. This does not work the other way round; if you make the bracha on the less choshuv, you must have in mind. It is mashmah in the poskim that when you have specific kavanah, although greira doesn’t work, it is as though you made a bracha directly on this item.
If we accept that there are two methods of pattering an “eino choshuv” of the same bracha – through “greira” or through making the bracha directly, it could impact our shailah:
If it is a direct beracha, I don’t see any reason to make a new bracha. As far as I can understand, there is no hesech hada’as, nor is it a termination of the bracha.
If it is “greira”: The way I understood greira is that the bracha is chal on the achilah. Anything which is considered part of this achilah is נכלל in the bracha. Greira means that the eino choshuv is considered part of the achila of the choshuv. Accordingly, if you are mafsik the achilah of the choshuv (which Al Hamichya definitely constitutes), it is now too late to “drag” the achila of the eino choshuv. (I am not convinced this is greira, though. Greira could mean other things)
Does anyone hear that svara?
ChortkovParticipantSam2 – Thank you for replying; I’m sorry, I didn’t understand what you wrote.
Let me rephrase the points:
Question 2: Why is it muttar to repeat loshon hora that was heard be’apei te’lasa if the person I am telling it to is not allowed to hear it? It should be assur because of lifnei iver. It sounds like you are answering that it is actually forbidden – but that just isn’t true. Did I misunderstand you?
Question 3: Why is an eid echad believed that loshon hora is l’toieles, but not believed that it avida ligluye? Both appear equally נגד אתחזק. I really don’t understand what you said to this one.
ChortkovParticipant(BTW, one Rav who said to make a new beracha said because the Al Hamichya is a Hesech Hada’as on the Mezonos. I interpreted that to mean that al Hamichya is inherently a siluk from continuing the mezonos. He did not say because the al Hamichya is an ending of the beracha. The second rav who said the same psak mentioned that it finishes the brocho.)
ChortkovParticipantSam2 – Interesting sevara. I thought along those lines too, although I wonder if it’s true.
1) Do you have any basis to say that Al Hamichya ends a beracha rishonah? I would say that they are two independant chiyuvim.
2) Why do you say that the bracha is only chal on the food when you begin eating? (My father said something very similar, but agreed that it is not muchach.) Although the eating is the mechayav, are you sure that the brocho hasn’t taken effect until you actually begin eating?
ChortkovParticipantWhy did you to ask another LOR after you received an answer
By the time I asked the Shailah, it wasn’t relevant anymore. I was asking out of interest to clarify the Halachah, not for practical purposes. I chanced upon the shailah in a contemporary sefer who doesn’t rule definitively. I asked one Rav who said to make a new brocho; I don’t understand that psak. I discussed it with a different Rav who wasn’t sure, but eventually said that he thinks you’d have to make a new brocho. Somebody who was with me when the shailah arose asked his own Rav, who said not to make a new brocho.
However, at this point you have 2 LOR’s saying make a new brocha and one saying no. Do we follow the ROV (majority)?
The Halachah is בדאורייתא הלך אחר המחמיר, בדרבנן הלך אחר המיקל when it comes to Machlokes, unless you have a Rav who you are mekabel as your authority and are aware of his shittos and follow him in ‘רוב דיני התורה’. The exception to this rule is when one of them is גדול ממנו בחכמה ובמנין – in this case, that would be the Rav who paskened to make the brocho.
ChortkovParticipantLU and iacisrmma – In my case, I had in mind that al hamichya should NOT patter the rice. In that case, I’m pretty confident that it wouldn’t work לכולי עלמא.
ChortkovParticipantWhat do you call a good yeshiva, and what do you consider Chassidish?
Novominsk is quite a balance, if I understand correctly, although primarily Litvish.
Gateshead (England) has a lot of both.
Lakewood Mesivta? (I don’t know much about them, but I know a few Litivshe bochorim from there and a few Chassidishe bochurim from the same place, and I’ve heard the chassidim are well integrated there)ChortkovParticipant5ish — Those cases are b’chezkas heter, if there is such a thing. Either way, I don’t see this as a chiluk – you see the ne’emonus of byodoi is indiscriminate between whether the action under my control is muttar or assur.
ChortkovParticipantJoseph and Yekke2 are both right so maybe the Chassidish way is better – just meet in the parents or the shadchan’s home. No deciding where to go etc and the girl is not expected to arrive as though she is a film star.
I dunno what you think I said, but I definitely didn’t agree with Joseph.
ChortkovParticipantDoes the brocha acharona cut off the food or does it cut off the brocha rishona?
I think those would be the two tzdadim
That’s definitely the first shailah that comes to mind. I find it a huge chiddush to suggest that the bracha acharona cuts off the brocha rishona; as far as I understand, the two are entirely unrelated. If you don’t make a brocho rishona for whatever reason, you still make a brocho achroina. Every achila is mechayav a beracha both before and after.
I’m wondering if even if it cuts off the food (I would prefer the loshon cuts off the ‘achila’ – it would cut off the action, not the item) whether it’s possible to say you need another brocho. I’ll post more when I have a chance.
ChortkovParticipantSo why didn’t you tell the person, I am sorry but I am not finished eating yet so either please wait until I am finished, find someone else or say it yourself?
That would definitely be the appropriate reaction. You could also do your friend a favour and forget about the rice! I only thought about it afterwards; I didn’t eat the rice. In Halachah. however, it’s not good enough to just say ‘okay, I’ll just be machmir’. לימוד התורה obligates you to verify the truth of Halachah. The Netziv (Ha’amek Davar – I think at the end of קדושים) on the Posuk והבדלת בין הטמא לטהור writes that there is an obligation to clarify sfeikos rather than just “be machmir”.
ChortkovParticipantWhy do they complain so much? Even if he turns out to be completely not her parsha, it’s no worse than if she didn’t go out that night.
Because, on the negative side, the emotional investment a girl goes through is tenfold that of a man. And that’s just while deciding what to wear.
ChortkovParticipantIts normally quite easy to see what reaction you’re trying to elicit, but I’m not sure what response you looking for here.
ChortkovParticipantJoseph – the facts are that they are interviewing the pupils, not the staff. They sit down with the kids and ask all manners of awkward questions. If a kid is savvy enough, he knows to answer that they are taught tolerance. (I’m not sure that this is the right thing to do, I wander what a Rav would pasken to a child who wants to know how to answer – to make a חילול ה and say that they are taught acceptance, or to say the truth and cause issues!) Some schools may even teach the kids how to answer awkward questions.
ChortkovParticipantI’m assuming every Talmud Torah in Gateshead isn’t mentioning homosexuality in any way, shape, or form.
Of course they don’t. However, a lot of the failing is due to the reactions of the children selected during the inspection, and it is likely that in most frum schools – at least in the high schools – there are children who are exposed to the concept of same sex marriage on some level. Depending on the child’s initiative, the answers can vary in standards and can often reach the pass level even without being taught. Viznitz, however, would be blatantly clear that the children do not know of or support homosexual marriage.
ChortkovParticipantMazal tov!
ChortkovParticipantI know, thank you.
Not all categories have topics readily available without searching… I guess googling it would work, though…
ChortkovParticipantThere used to be the archive split into various categories – Decaffeinated Coffee, Controversial Topics, Beis Hamedrash, Recipes, etc. Now the categories still exist, but how do we access the archive?
August 5, 2017 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm in reply to: Smartphone Vegetables! It’s Soooo Sad! 📱🍆🍠🥕🌽🌶️🍅🥒🍄😢 #1332905ChortkovParticipantThe Automobile, Trains , Printing Press and other inventions did more damage for Yiddishkeit than the smartphone could ever do
If you define “damage to Yiddishkeit” as the unraveling of Yiras Shamayim or as facilitating and causing people to be oiver more issurim than they would without it, then your claim is nonsense.
I wonder how you define “damage to Yiddishkeit”.
ChortkovParticipantSo yekke2 anti-semites think we jews don’t deserve to live maybe we should just kill ourselves?
Wow, that was random!
I guess I’ll explain myself one more time, and if you don’t want to get it, you don’t have to. Nobody is saying that public perception is correct or that you should care what other people thing. I am explaining a basic human phenomenon called “embarrassment”. It is an uncomfortable self conscious feeling where one feels exposed and degraded, or a loss of dignity. This is caused by what other people consider acceptable or normal; if in public perception one is “abnormal”, this leads to that feeling.
Of course, if you have the strength of character or emotional fortitude to be fully rational that you have done nothing wrong, that nothing is wrong, and you don’t care what other people think about you, אשריך וטוב לך. Most of us are humans, however, and embarrassment is a very real thing.
You are right that the term “shame” was used incorrectly.
ChortkovParticipantIt is very much part of Torah Mi’Sinai. You’ll see all over Torah Shebichsav uses of nouns in either masculine or feminine. Some nouns have dual forms, as Rashi al haTorah points out (is it in Chayei Soroh? Can’t remember).
August 4, 2017 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm in reply to: If you can go to war at 18, you should be able to drink at 18 #1332753ChortkovParticipantDY – Are you saying that I shouldn’t bother debating with NetiquamErro because I don’t mean it and cannot successfully express my points, or that I shouldn’t bother debating with NetiquamErro because he doesn’t mean it?
ChortkovParticipantYekke2 what do you mean by this “There is shame, however, in having mental disorders.” how so if someone is born with a heart disorder how is that different from being born with a mental disorder?
Embarrassment is nothing to do with being fault or blame. Embarrassment is about perception. And people perceive mental disorders different to heart disorders.
August 4, 2017 6:31 am at 6:31 am in reply to: If you can go to war at 18, you should be able to drink at 18 #1332598ChortkovParticipantNetiquamErro: I’m sorry, but I fail to understand your position. Are you arguing in semantics? Just don’t call them “adult” until they are 21, when they are deemed mature enough to accept responsibility in everything, and let them be legally defined as “children”, and simply permit children to do certain dangerous activities when they are at the age when they are capable of taking responsibility?
We both agree that in the governments responsibility to protect its citizens, it should require reaching a certain age where most people are capable of accepting responsibility. You also agree that the aforementioned age differs among various activities. So the question is whether they should achieve the status “adult” until reaching a full maturity?
So therefore, even from a libertarian standpoint, taking heroin or driving drunk would be illegal, as you’re placing others at risk, not just yourself
Why does heroin place others at risk?
If they feel 19 year olds truly aren’t responsible, and bring evidence from increased drink driving rates or the like, then they should be legally considered children, with commensurate voting and tax legislation.
This really doesn’t make any sense. Please explain why should the fact that 19 year olds are irresponsible drinkers mean that they shouldn’t be eligible to vote?!
ChortkovParticipantThere is no shame in going to therapy. There is certainly no shame in being healed. There is shame, however, in having mental disorders.
August 3, 2017 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm in reply to: Smartphone Vegetables! It’s Soooo Sad! 📱🍆🍠🥕🌽🌶️🍅🥒🍄😢 #1332489ChortkovParticipantWhile I’m sure that most of the people here, like most people today, are too young to remember life without smartphones
Hey! The first iphone only came out in 2007, I think… Let’s not get carried away…
ChortkovParticipantI’ve rarely seen people judging someone because he has a sore leg. Mental disorder, however, will change the way people interact with you, one way or another. It is obviously more private.
Having said that, I once heard from a kid in Yeshiva that his therapist told him that it doesn’t matter that monsters come out from under his bed at night. I thought it funny that his therapist didn’t tell him there were no monsters, or at least that they don’t come out at night. Someone asked him who his therapist was, and he said “I’m not saying, it’s private.”
That’s open for you!!
August 3, 2017 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm in reply to: Smartphone Vegetables! It’s Soooo Sad! 📱🍆🍠🥕🌽🌶️🍅🥒🍄😢 #1332491ChortkovParticipantalso another question. you are using the internet while writing this article. so please dont be a hypocrite. (ok that wasnt a question but you get the point i hope)
Hey, that not true. Internet and smartphones are worlds apart. And yes, Internet may also be wrong in many circumstances, but most of the points the author lamented in the OP are not relevant to internet, they are specifically about smartphones.
You can say that you don’t agree that these are ramifications of having smartphones, or that you need it for your business and that it’s worth sacrificing your davening and relationships for the convenience, but there’s no reason to attack back!!
August 3, 2017 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm in reply to: If you can go to war at 18, you should be able to drink at 18 #1332457ChortkovParticipantThe world get confused between Human rights and human privileges.
All humans have rights to live, and to live like mentches. So any form of racial distinction is both illogical and morally wrong. Youre right to live grants you rights to live where you want, to travel on the same buses, to visit the same parks, and to marry whomever you want.
Your right to live does not, however, grant you the ability to make decisions you are not qualified to make. Anything which involves decision making – voting as far as I am concerned is only a minor issue; court jury service is much more problematic – should need basic qualifications to prove you sane, fairly intelligent and of the ability to make decisions.
As far as voting is concerned, this is impossible; in a democracy, we need the voice of the people. If the people are stupid, then their voice may be equally stupid, but it is the voice of the people which counts. If you don’t like that, do away with democracy.
When it comes to decisions in courts, where a jury can decide “guilty” or “innocent” just because the defendant looks sinister or because the alleged victim has a cute smile, no human with a conscience and a sane mind should allow half the country to decide the fate of another person with such impunity.
August 3, 2017 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm in reply to: Smartphone Vegetables! It’s Soooo Sad! 📱🍆🍠🥕🌽🌶️🍅🥒🍄😢 #1332469ChortkovParticipantSome Bais Yaakov girls think that they can have smartphones and want “Learning Boys”. I have news for them . They shouldn’t be surprised if some boys will say know solely because she has a smartphone.
Real solid learning boys who are looking to shteig don’t own smartphones, and usually don’t what a girl that has one.This is a common occurrence, actually. I know a few stories from good friends who turned down otherwise good shidduchim because the girl had a smartphone. One of my friends told her that he wants to marry her, but he’ll only do so if she gets rid of the smartphone. She said – hey, something so small is the make it or break it? He said – I’m asking you to choose between me and your phone. Your decision will say a lot about you!! She gave up the phone…
August 3, 2017 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm in reply to: If you can go to war at 18, you should be able to drink at 18 #1331543ChortkovParticipantIf one is to be deemed by the state as adult, then that person should no longer be bound by laws that discriminate by age.
Isn’t that a bit of an oxymoron to say that you can only discriminate against children by age?
I simply believe that should be the definition of an adult. If that age is deemed to be 21, then so be it. But I don’t believe the state should be allowed to tell some of its subjects that they are not yet responsible enough for a particular activity.
I can hear a case for the law not interfering in people’s personal danger zones, but that case would legalize drugs. If you agree with the state using legislation to protect it’s citizens, then why wouldn’t you understand an age where things become legal?
To take this argument to its logical conclusion, if there were a scientific, peer-reviewed, double-blind study showing that people aged 40-46 are 32% more likely to be involved in an automobile accident, would there be a case from restricting the right to drive for people in that age bracket?
Driving is the one thing which is logical to restrict; people more likely to cause accidents are more likely to kill others. This isn’t protecting people from themselves, this is stopping them harming the public. This is like restricting guns. The way you present it, is requiring drivers to pass some form of test to prove their driving capability wrong?
I would argue certainly not, and ages 18-21 should be no different, unless we legally consider them children.
How do you justify monitoring children?
ChortkovParticipantYekke, I doubt the exactness of your story (but then I often doubt the exactness of stories).
But do you doubt the point?
August 3, 2017 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm in reply to: If you can go to war at 18, you should be able to drink at 18 #1331540ChortkovParticipantAs for the army, halachically it should be 20-60 although one rav suggested that 18 is a horaat shaah.
Hora’at Sha’ah. Lol.
August 3, 2017 8:03 am at 8:03 am in reply to: If you can go to war at 18, you should be able to drink at 18 #1331290ChortkovParticipantNeutiquamErro: Why do you say that? The laws banning underage participants in any activity isn’t because they don’t have rights as children, but because it is deemed dangerous and they are not considered capable of looking after themselves in this area.
If it could be proven (which is irrelevant to your point, I think) that humans aged 20+ were capable of driving responsibly but were not able to drink responsibly until they were 22, why would you be against a law tailor for maximum safety? To prohibit this 21 year old from driving would be ridiculous, because he is capable, but to allow drinking would be irresponsible and damaging.
Are you against laws that protect people when they are adults? Do you feel all drugs should be legalized to adults, because they are capable of making their own decisions?
I don’t know why you look at ‘adult’ as a boolean attribute. It is entirely relative.
ChortkovParticipantThe Chofetz Chaim once sent someone (I’m pretty sure it was R’ Elchonon, but not positive) collecting, with the mission to raise 50,000 rubles (Insert your own denomination here). The emissary went on his bidding, and tried his hardest to raise the money – to no avail. He returned empty handed to the Chofetz Chaim. As he came in, a rich man entered and gave the C”C 50,000 rubles – the exact amount they needed. Disheartened at the waste of time and energy, he complained to the Chofetz Chaim.
The Chofetz Chaim explained that all hishtadlus is like that – our obligation is to perform the token effort necessary to achieve the results – and then Hashem gives what you need, which is totally unrelated to the actual effort. The results are not consequences of the efforts.
This is the huge nisayon of Hishtadlus – to be able to see through the smokescreen of hester and dispell the illusion of כחי ועצם ידי – the feeling of success when your efforts succeed – and see that everything comes from Hashem, no matter how hard or little you try.
ChortkovParticipanthttp://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14061&st=&pgnum=358 (Mesech Chochmoh – referring to the obligation to build another 3 Orei Miklat when Moshiach comes. This seems to imply that people will still be killing bshogeg and need refuge).
There is also a famous (and often misquoted) Gemara in Niddah (55?) where R’ Yosef says מצות בטילות לעתיד לבא – the mitzvos will become obsolete in the Future. This gemara is subject to numerous arguments in the commentaries – mainly, what exactly does בטלות mean, and which period of time is this referring to. Of course, if you were to take this gemara literally (as many Rishonim do), then you have an answer to your question.
ChortkovParticipantAn aveira b’shogeg or b’oneis can still happen (not necessarily piggul), i. e. a person would probably still be able to accidentally hit a light switch on shabbos.
Shogeg is defined by transgressing a prohibition without knowledge – either you didn’t know it was forbidden, or you didn’t know that the circumstances involved a prohibition. Eg, you thought it was permitted to switch on a light on Shabbos, or that it wasn’t Shabbos.
Accidentally hitting a light switch isn’t a שוגג, it is מתעסק. You are unaware of the action you are doing. The Achronim debate the exact halachic status of מתעסק, but many consider it (at least on Shabbos, where you need מלאכת מחשבת) not to be a transgression at all. According to plenty of Poskim, if you see someone leaning against the wall about to hit a light switch unawares, you do not need to stop him.
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