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Check out the Shevet Halevi:
mitzvos tzrichos kavanah doesn’t apply to talmud torah especially since it is a mitzvah dioraysah
According to R’ Avraham Min Hahar, you can taineh ??? ????, like ???.
Zahavasdad – What do you say to mw13’s excellently executed point (I posted a link)? I think he’s shown you – in a way that none of us managed with intellectual discussion – exactly how crazy your tainah sounds.
Charlie Hall – any response?
Sam2 – You honestly don’t understand the concept of not Mishing? (Not mishing and not inviting guests are, of course, two separate totally things. We don’t mish [except for very close family], but we have guests almost every meal on Yom Tov)
PAA – It cannot hold water within your view; such a person would only be doing it because the benefit of doing mitzvos outweighed the oinesh, not because he understood the inherent value. And therefore is no better a person than the one who keeps mitzvos and gets schar, and by extension, not better than someone who does aveiros, like you tained before.
Avi K – R’ Meir Simcha did support the founding of the state, that is true. But he would definitely tell you that Jerusalem isn’t Yerushalayim. His point still stands about Klal Yisroel feeling at home amongst the Goyim. People have to understand that even in Jerusalem, you must pray ???? ??? ????????. A country run by ??????, by ????? ???, by ????? ? cannot be Our State. Until we have Moshiach at Israel’s helm, (????? ???), we cannot get comfortable.
(Click on the words to follow the links)
Check out this post from mw13 and then check out ZahavaDad in a different thread: this link, and this one, and this one, and this one.
I am confused. Are you the same person? Are you somebody else, copying ZDs post for yourself? I understand not mw13. (Note it was copied and pasted; see exactly the same typo with the space between the “them” and ” .”)
Explain?
ZD – The purpose of Asifas are not to sort out issues. Chizzuk dissipates fairly quickly, and the inspiration does not last long. The main purpose of the Asifa is to raise awareness about the issue the Gedolim feel people don’t understand the danger of.
(i) Molesting is nogea only to very few individuals in the Kehilla.
(ii) Molesting is not a topic with any purpose in publicizing. The more people know about it, the worse it is for everyone – for the victims, the molesters, the Rabbanim.
(iii) “??? ?????? ??????” – the main point of Asifas are not intended for the sinners. It is for the ???? ?? who are unaware of various issues worth speaking about. We don’t make Asifas for people who are intentionally doing wrong things.
And as I wrote, if you have a problem with molesters, open a new thread.
I am simply curious as to why none of these have received coherent responses that do not include needless extrapolation and that actually address the issue. Do you know?
There are a few answers, each relevant to different posters.
My question was a very personal question. For somebody with an identity on a public forum to announce that he may have done an issur is highly embarrassing. And anybody would know that to deny any mishap – both intentionally and unintentionally – would simply be led to accusations of denial, lying or trolling.
Another possibility is that posters haven’t got time or intelligence to read long posts; they simply write their thoughts on the issue and don’t follow it up. Especially if they know that the person they are arguing with has far too much time on their hands (excuse me), and will pursue the issue until the bitter end.
A third possibility is – and perhaps the most likely of all – they have no answer.
Hoisted on my own petard. But incidentally, I don’t recall ever mentioning grammar, at least not on this thread. But you’re right, I do value grammar, and attempt to conform to it best as I can.
I included a link in the words of my post to the post in which you discussed grammar in this thread. Click on the words “writing with the correct grammar”.
I’ll put the link here as well:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/get-rid-of-smart-phone/page/2#post-564692
BUMP. My favourite troll-busting troll has for become very quiet recently. We haven’t had a Motzeh Shabbos thread for a long time now.
Perhaps, PBA, you honour us with a nice good troll thread on Motze Shabbos this week?
There was a story of I think Rav Moshe, (It was an american Gadol from that time period, so I could be mistaken, but it was a well known Gadol). He was at some dinner honoring a big baal chesed. One of his talmidim came up to him and asked. “Rebbe , how can you attend an affair with mixed seating” . Rav Moshe (or whomever it was) said. The Honoree was a big Baal Chessed and warranted the Kavod of him attending the dinner honoring this person. Rav Moshe then sat next to his Rebbitzen.
I’m not sure what you are trying to prove from this story. Were you arguing with anything I said on this thread, or was it just a tidbit of information related to my post?
([BTW, there is a big difference between a Chasuna and a dinner in regards to the taaruvos problem.])
Smartphones are widespread in the Kehilla, but the other issues are a problem with leadership. If you knew for a fact a person used a smartphone or let an abuser get free. Whom would you consider a bigger Rasha. The leadership who poo-poos these bigger issues are causing people not to follow the Rabbanim. If people lose faith in the Rabbanim you have a much bigger problem
You’re right. There are a couple of Yidden who are ???? ???, so let’s forget about Loshon Horo.
If you want to start a rant against any particular trait of the yiddishe kehillas, feel free to open a new thread*. What does any of this have to do with smartphones?
* I’m sure Jewish Thinker won’t mind if you post it on his milk thread.
Too long, sorry. 🙂
As I pointed out above, the Gemora calls one who goes down a road that has immoral sites visible on it, even if one doesn’t look, is called a Rosha.
Sirvoddmort – Forgive me for being pedantic, but for someone who prides himself on writing with the correct grammar, surely you could have written the above sentence slightly better?
And did ‘sites’ get ironically confused with ‘sights’?
You basically say that there is no issue with the Internet if one has the mental strength to avoid it’s dangers.
Its. No apostrophe.
If you can’t be trusted to avoid the porn and gambling sites, by all means donate your smartphone to a shelter for victims of abuse and stay off the internet. But I would suspect that for most of us…
Charlie: “?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????”. The Gemara brings stories of how the Holy Tannah R’ Meir, whose Madreigos we cannot begin to fathom, was seduced by the Yetzer Hora and began climbing a tree to do ????. The ???? tells us about the Kohen Gadol of 80 years who became a ?????. The Issur of Yichud applies equally to those who believe they can control themselves. No one is safe.
A Bochur once wanted to go to a mixed (seating) wedding of a relative, and asked permission from R’ Leib Lopian zt”l. R’ Leib asked him how he could go to such a place? He replied that he was going to sit separately with a sefer, and he ‘wouldn’t look’. R’ Leib smiled at him sadly: “I’m 80 years old and blind in one eye, yet I am scared every time a walk in the streets that I’ll see something I shouldn’t. You are 20, young and impressionable, and you are going to walk into a matzav of nisayon like that?”
It could be that most of the time you do have the self control. But are you telling me that you have never been ???? on an unfiltered smartphone? You have never seen one indecent photo?
And I’m not talking about pornographic websites either; I am talking about normal, everyday websites with photos that are – and definitely should be – below your standards. Challenge: Can you honestly tell me that you have never seen anything you shouldn’t have?
The Meshech Chochmo in Parshas Bo gives a fascinating prophecy-like warning. He speaks about how through history, when Klal Yisroel get too familiar in their homes, that’s when HKB”H deals another blow. He warns that when people feel Berlin is Yerushalayim, the HKBH will put it into the Germans minds to show them their place.
How right he was.
And if he was here, R’ Meir Simcha zt”l would warn you that if people think Yerushalayim is Yerushalayim…
Both arguments have merits. I agree with Damoshe; the Arabs are not looking to destroy Israel, they’re looking to destroy Jews. Ask them, they’ll happily tell you. On the other hand, DY has a point about not provoking people who are happy to hate you. Although, if your enemy is doing the best it possibly could to destroy you, I don’t see why it hurts to spit on him. He cannot be antagonized any more than he already is!
Sirvoddmort:
It is sad that instead of changing their behavior to suit halacha (in this instance, a mefurash gezeira d’rabbonon,even apart from yichud)
“Mefurash gezeira d’rabbonon” is pushing it. The Gedolim of our time do not have the ?? of a Bes Din Hagodoil.
Its much easier to blame society ills on smartphones and easier to give mussar on them than do the same for molestation, abuse, Finances, Agunahs etc
Firstly, mixing secondary issues into an argument is paramount to announcing that you lost the argument, for it is an admission that you have nothing to say on the issue itself. (Think: “Well, my daddy is bigger than your daddy.”)
Secondly, there is a tremendous difference between the issues you mentioned, which effect ?????? in the Kehilla, and smartphones, which are a totally widespread problem that potentially affects every household.
thirdly i can list many things you learned as a kid that are dead wrong!!
Go on then. Here.
Somebody famously said that a true Yorei Shomayim is one who if HKB”H would say that you would get ??? for doing Aveiros, and ???? for doing Mitzvos, would still be doing Mitzvos and not doing Aveiros.
According to PAA, of course, this dictum carries no water.
Charlie Hall – Nobody suggested that everyone is ????. Nobody said either that there are no uses to smartphones. Nobody said that smartphones cannot be used to advance in ‘????? ?.
The point is – any smartphone unfiltered is a terrible, terrible ?????, and definitely for most adult males. And owning a smartphone and not filtering it is putting yourself in a ??? on ?????.
Challenge to anybody with an unfiltered smartphone: Can you honestly tell me, looking me in the eye, that you have never been ???? in ????? ????? or ????? ?????? as a result of your smartphone? Not even once, by-mistake, wasn’t-your-fault? Did you ever see one image that is lower than where you would place your standards? (And if not, do you perhaps need to raise your standards slightly?)
It is sad that in our generation, we haven’t got the self control to be able to have an unfiltered smartphone and not transgress dozens of issurim. But it is no different to Yichud. We have to stop underestimating the tremendous power of the Yetzer Hara, and not place yourself into a ??? of ?????.
szb1 – Conformity isn’t just doing what others do, it is being a part of something. Yiddishkeit is about expressing individuality as part of a whole. Each person is a piece that makes up a grand puzzle.
“A bunch of Chumras” is not what makes you Frum. However, each person has their own level of intensity in their religious observation, and accordingly keep Halacha to that degree.
Those who don’t keep Halacha properly cannot call themselves Frum. This excludes certain parts of Dati Leumi and certain sects of Modern Orthodox. Among those, however, who do keep Halacha properly, you will find very many different levels of stringency.
Many many aspects of Jewish Law are open to fierce debate among both the earlier and more contemporary Poskim. In everything, there are those who are more lenient and those who are more strict. For those who feel that Torah is a burden (?? ?????? ????), fishing around for the best “kullahs” (leniencies) is ideal for them. Amongst those who appreciate the opportunity of being a Frum Jew, you will find different levels as well; each person will Pasken like his Rav did. ??? ?? ?? dictates that each person has one Rabbi who he will follow, which sometimes will mean being lenient where others are strict, and sometimes the other way round.
The Hashkafah you follow is generally subject to Mesorah, on the whole. After the subject of Halachah has been fixed, there is a separate issue of Hashkafah (- ideological viewpoint on philosophical issues relating to Life, the Universe and Everything). That is a matter of finding the correct Torah sources for the various different controversies and being able to apply them to Modern day scenarios – something which we need our Gedolim for.
YYBC – Hold your horses, I didn’t say anything of the sort. I did not justify not listening to Gedolim at all. I was quite careful with what I wrote, because I know there are people in the CR who do like to see things unwritten.
I wrote that I wouldn’t put it into the definition of a Frum person. Like you didn’t say Someone who believes in the sanctity of Torah and mitzvos over anything else, who tries to fulfill its dictums, and who shakes Lulav on Sukkos and who eats Matzah on Pesach. Because these things are not anything more than “fulfilling its dictums”, as you put it. The same is with respect for Gedolim. That is part of fulfilling its dictums, not a category on its own. If you disagree with me, feel free to explain why, and feel free to be as refreshingly sarcastic as you were on your last post. I really enjoyed it. (And, btw, it should be a capital J)
And, for clarification, I was referring to what I understood from your post – “worthiness of our gedolim” seems to refer to the modern day Gedolim, not to the Tannaim. People of our generation do not command respect unless proven so. (There is a famous story with the Brisker Rav on that point) That was what I meant by ‘unnecessary’. C”V to talk like that about the Helige Tannaim.
Unfettered Internet is probably the greatest danger facing Torah Jewry today.
Agreed. Unfiltered Internet, and perhaps Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
“FRUM”
U – In the middle
Anything on the right is FR – Fanatic/Radical
Anything on the left is M – Modern
Rav Meir Shapiro zt”l was niftar quite young – in his forties. on marChehvan 7th 1933; the 1st day that Tal uMotor is requested, the last day having been 3 days ago.
I always laugh at your posts, 147. Why on earth do you add random bits of information – generally related to dates, times or Zionism – which have totally no connection to the thread, the post or anything your trying to say?
So scrap the “old man” reference! It doesn’t change the story… My mistake!
There was a fascinating story about how Reb Vosner zt”l became enrolled in Yeshivas Chachmei Lublin (The First) in the first place. If anybody knows the details, please post them.
It went something like this: To get into Chachmei Lublin, a bochur would have to know 400 blatt gemara ??? ??. Young Shmuel Vosner was not ‘settled’ wherever he was, and was nothing near the 400 required. Nevertheless, he decided that the only way he would be able to shteig would be in the famous Lublin Yeshiva. When he arrived, Reb Meir Shapira zt”l was away. The Mashgiach at the time farhered him, and explained him that he wouldn’t make it. He was not welcome at Yeshivas Chachmei Lublin.
Somehow, through some ‘Hand of Fate’, dejected Shmuel Vosner met an old man at the train station, while waiting to journey back home. The old man got involved with him in conversation – and I forget the details, but it turned out to be R’ Meir Shapira himself and was impressed by something Shmuel Vosner said, and bought him back to Yeshiva.
The rest, as they say, is History…
Ever since this controversy, I find myself checking what type of phone people are using. I find that more than half of Chareidim have smartphones.
You sound pretty judgemental there. “Checking what type of phones people are using” means nothing. You have no idea how many of them have filters! Filters which block out Shmutz; Filters which block out unnecessary sites suited for entertainment purposes, or even Filters which totally block Browsers and Apps. I know many people who have smartphones which are totally disabled; the sole purpose of the smartphone is for Whatsapp (which you discuss separately if you think it is a problem, but is definitely not anywhere near the ???? we associate with smartphones) and for the quality of the camera.
Please be ?? ??? ???? when possible.
szb1 – I have seen “Charedi” defined as “a member of any of various Orthodox Jewish sects characterized by strict adherence to the traditional form of Jewish law and rejection of modern secular culture”. I think that description is fairly accurate. I’m not sure about the ‘traditional form’ part; I would sooner say ‘strict adherence to Jewish Law’.
I’m not sure what you mean by why in your post. If you explain your question, I’m sure the posters here will try their best to answer you.
BTW – Kudos to you for your religious advancement. Kol Hakavod! I very much respect people like you who can pick themselves up from whatever state they find themselves in and strive to become better people, and to develop themselves spiritually. I wish I could be as strong as you.
I have a 100% searchable tanach+Rashi+shas on my smartphone. I use it all the time. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to stay in yeshiva all day surrounded by sforim.
Not that I’m claiming to have a direct line to G-d, but if this is your entire justification for having a smartphone then I’m sure He’d rather you got rid of it. But if that’s just a side point, and entirely unrelated to your personal reasons, or indeed justifications, for having a smartphone, then kol hakovod for at least using it for a worthy cause.
A school Rebbi of mine once called in a boy about his iTouch. The boy showed him his Torah app with Shas, Shulchan Aruch and Tanach. The Rebbi told him that it was like putting a piece of matzah into a dish full of Chometz – not only does the Chometz not become Kosher LePesach, but it actually makes the Matzah chometz too.
What is the ??? if not the ultimate value of an act?
Good question. I can’t say for certain what the Rambam meant by ??? but if it’s just another value (albeit the best value) then there is no reason why it should be considered “better” to pursue this value over any other value.
Working with your argument, that Emes is a motivation because of its value – surely one can distinguish between two values. If a hungry person has a choice of eating a steak or leaving it for somebody else and chooses to leave it, simply because he wants to be nice to the other person, you would call him a better person. And the value of eating the steak is more than the value of leaving it, yet the decision to prioritize the ‘noble’ value over the more-valuable selfish one is Good. Would you not agree with that?
YYBC – I disagree with your definition of frum.
Frum is simply “Someone who believes in HKBH and the 13 Ikkrim, and tries to fulfill the dictum of Torah”.
I am not sure what you mean by ‘believes in the sanctity of Torah & Mitzvos over anything else”. And ‘believing in the worthiness of our gedolim’ is not a prerequisite to being Frum at all. At best, it is simply something a Yid must do (equal to shaking lulav and eating Matzah, which doesn’t come under a separate category in the Frum Definition), at worst totally unnecessary.
Who was the Rav? Is this the same Rabbi Knopfler who was involved in the Lakewood Gittin?
I’m sure nobody minds that you hijacked a thread that had pretty much finished itself off, but what made you choose to post a series of “chalav stam” posts on this thread; wouldn’t it be more suitable to hijack, say, the Parah Aduma thread?
Jewish Thinker – Did you mean this thread? I’m sure the Mods will be happy to remove them from here and replace them in their intended location…
“Lifnim mishuras hadin” is unfortunately overused and misunderstood. A chumra which has no basis isn’t “Lifnim mishuras hadin”, it is stupidity. Somebody who sits in the succah while raining is called a ?????, not a ?????.
When the Chazon Ish saw people making Chumras which had no halachic basis, he would inform them they were wasting their time. They would reply, “Well, it can’t hurt!” He told them that he knew a man who would walk around with eye glasses that had no lenses in – just the frame. When people asked him whats the point, he would shrug – “Well, it can’t hurt!”
And we know that there are no irreligious Jewish men or women who are homosexual, correct? Because it seems that is the position that Sam & Simcha are taking.
I hope you are being sarcastic there, not incredibly naive.
BUMP
The real Chochma is to make our way through Galus knowing every minute of every day that everything can change in an instant. And never losing hope that it will.
Of course. ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???. We all hope and pray for Moshiach, and we should work on ourselves until we really mean it with all our hearts. But hoping and looking towards it – being ???? ?????? – is very different to luring ourselves into false pretenses which turn our lives momentarily into fantasies which leave us more devastated when they turn out to be false.
You shouldn’t have put that spoiler at the end. I was just working myself up to a major rant, and then I hit that “Happy 4/1/2015”. You should have waited to be destroyed from all angles and then pointed out the date!
And, for the record, its 1/4/2015.
golfer – There is a massive distinction between hoping, praying and preparing for Moshiach to fooling yourself that Moshiach has arrived. Unfortunately, 2000 years of Golus and too many supposed Moshiachs in the past has led Klal Yisroel into a forced cynicism. If every time there is a slight ‘hint’ to Moshiach we got our hopes up, we would never make it through the Golus.
Yes, we all await the Geula Shleima Bekarov. But no, I won’t believe Moshiach is here until I see him myself.