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If I hadn’t seen “Scared driver delight” and checked the name again three times, I would have sworn this post was written by 147.
And while were at it “what do you have to say about the view expressed by” Moses – Loi Sirtzach? I mean come on? What a ridiculous thing to say? He must have been high on Sinai? What were those tablets he was taking?
Gotta love those puns at the end, Shuychus, but I think your totally overreacting. The source of the confusion is, I believe, that you are confusing this Rabbi Mizrachi with ? ????? ????? (???), the Kadmon who is one of the foremost Meforshei Rashi.
I don’t know who this Rabbi Mizrachi is or what he said, but if he is somebody from our dor, then I must repeat some sentiments I have posted a couple of weeks ago. (Note: I have never heard of Rabbi Mizrachi, and I haven’t heard the quote. If he is coming from a Mesorah tracing to sources which are reliable, I take my words back.)
Click here
if with the right ppl and right topic they can both lead to clarity……
If your with the right people, you don’t have arguments. Discussions can lead to clarity. Arguments are a futile waste of time, because nobody is willing or trying to accept anything from anybody else; the sole purpose is to present your opinion with as much force as possible. It generally ends in “you said… I said…” fighting and a general confusion of who was right and who was wrong. And, in many occasions, arguments escalate and ends up with personal insults, or at least hard feelings.
Yes it is.
No it isn’t.
I haven’t determined on which point you are arguing…
As part of their preventative measures, JCW has a fascinating technique that I think has bearing on this discussion: They have a “Wall of Shame”, filled with names and pictures of suspected (although not necessarily proven) child abusers.
I disagree with this. Until properly proven, you cannot do anything publicly. Putting up a photograph of a suspected molester on a wall dedicated to suspected criminals is a disgraceful thing to do. Whatever you can do once convicted is debateable, but to hang somebody without proof?
I guess somebody could manage another Abie Rotenberg referrence…
The abundance of 3 letter words – especially in a board more than 4×4, is too many to bother with. Thats why in my family, even in a 4X4 board, we play “no 3 letter words” (for the older members anyway).
What is the purpose of punishment if not vengeance (deterrence not included)?
That was part of the question. Which Seforim say he comes like they do by every bris?
I don’t see your point. Yes, there is no reason to do something that isn’t in your mesorah. But why shouldn’t a person decide to accept on himself something extra? If there is meaning behind a minhag (which there probably is), and it isn’t just meaningless hocus pocus, then why shouldn’t a person want to add to his minhagim?
Yekkes traditionally have not done Kapparos. Yekkes do not go to Mikvah daily or weekly (some go Erev Yom Tov, some only Erev Yom Kippur). Isn’t it too strong to say that a yekke shouldn’t go to Mikvah on every Friday?
You say we are aware of his presence. I neither know about, nor sense, the presence of Eliyahu z”l.
Yekke, if, chas v’sholem , it was your child, would you be able to be so rational?
Boruch Hashem, I have never been in the terrible situation, and I hope not to ever have to be able to face the answer to that question. Unfortunately, being rational is difficult when you are associated in the story, and the best way to deal with any situation is to imagine you were not in any way involved… or if that proves too difficult, get advice from somebody who actually isn’t involved. Involvement blinds all semblance of rationality (like the story of the Shach [which either did or didn’t happen]).
But my point was – rationality is the way forward, not unbalanced emotion. I don’t blame anybody for not being rational, but that doesn’t change the truth of the correct response.
But do we?
Technically, there’s about 565,225 posts, and at least 11% have been blocked.
Goq – Emotional reactions, however painful, cannot allow ignoring Halacha. I would have thought that obvious.
Disclaimer – Before somebody shouts “Shoemaker, no higher than the shoes”, this is why I am answering: ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???.
I don’t believe there is any official short-term programme. I know the program (In Gateshead old) is 3 Years, and they get very annoyed if you leave after 2, which is a pretty standard thing to do. Whether or not they will allow you to come for a month in the middle of term, I don’t know. Also, note that the Sem closes for Winter Break sometime in December.
Hatzlachah in whatever you do!!
If Daas Torah says the victim is not to believed and the Perp goes free and is moved to another community, would you accept that Daas Torah (Assuming the Perp really is guilty)
I don’t understand the question. “Assuming the perp is really guilty” – Do you know he is guilty in a manner that would be accepted by Daas Torah? If so, you don’t need the Daas Torah to have their own ?????. If your knowledge is not from a source acceptable to Torah, then obviously you accept Daas Torah. What’s the sofek?
I do not give a hoot about the abuser if he is able to continue abusing or not i care about the victims they need justice, we do not run this country we must abide by the rules set down not that it should have anything to do with the law its the right thing to do.
Does nobody here recognize any possibility that the abuser might actually be a victim? That he may also a korbon of our system for not dealing with him after he was abused as a child? (PBA’s old point).
Your point of “victims getting justice” was totally illegibly mixed with another about Law. Obviously, your point about law is irrational, because you (probably) keep Halachah, and unless Halachah allows you to report, your countries laws mean nothing in regards to overriding Halachah.
Your point about “victims getting justice” – sounds to me like you are blurring rationality due to emotional leanings… a dangerous approach in these issues. An approach many posters on the CR and – more importantly – many people in real life mistakenly take. Sometimes in life, you have to take a deep breath, stop thinking about personal reasons to point in either direction and actually think about it rationally.
This post is dedicated to NeutiquamErro.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/sesquipedalianism#post-381997
The first one is having unfiltered internet, with full access to all the shmutz in the world. This is simply and unequivocally assur. The Gedolim and venerated Poskim of our generation (R’ Shteinman, R’ Vozner, R’ Chaim, R’ Nissin Karelitz, R’ Moshe Shternbuch, to name a few) have said so time and time again, and I have yet to hear a single dissenting opinion.
Simple, yes. Unequivocal – apparently not. ZD seems to be of the opinion – an opinion supposedly supported by those he considers competent halachic authorities of the level to argue with the formidable group you mentioned – that (a) he needs access to the ‘shmutz of the world’ for his business, (b) he is allowed to have such access for the sake of business.
Unless the ????? can be considered ??????, and we can assume that ZD has conceded his position in this debate, and has given up his unfiltered smartphone, ?”?, and either reclarified the opinion of his ‘halachic authorities’ or realized their incompetence.
probably the most thorny issue of the subject: What is considered adequate halachic proof that a person is an abuser? What if its just one person’s word against another’s?
Excellent point. I was, once upon the time, of the opinion that 2 Kosher Eidim would be necessary to convict any molester of wrongdoing. I asked a Rav (who was involved in the investigation regarding another Rav who was accused of halachic misconduct) how they could accept testimony of women. He rightly pointed out that we are not trying to kill the man, nor are we trying to give him Malkus or to force monetary compensation. The only shailah was in ????? ???? ??? (in that particular scenario, where even according to the allegations, he had legally done nothing wrong, but was not fit to be a Rav), and for that, 2 ???? are not required.
The ???? ?????, discussing the story of a teacher who was accused of sexually abusing two students, allowed the testimony of the just-adult boys about their experiences as children; evidence which generally holds no water in Jewish Courts of Law. It would seem from his calculations that the same would apply to all women and children. (I haven’t seen the ???? ????? inside; I was told about it when discussing a similar case with a Rav).
Is the moser a rodef even once he already made the report or is he only a rodef from the time he intended to make the report up to and through the point he actually made the report? –Joseph
I believe that the din of killing a Moiser only applies from his plans to inform until the time he does inform. However, one who informs 3 times retains the status of a Moiser and can be killed regardless.
But where I believe you slip up, if you’ll pardon me for saying this, is when you approach this from a purely moral standpoint. I may have read you wrong, and as you will probably understand I am not writing this with hours to spare, but you seemed to say that morally, he should not be punished. Now, were you saying this with reference to the fact that hakol beyad hashem, I would understand you. But you seem to saying that even leaving halacha out of it, it would be wrong to punish them. And on that I disagree. Whilst you make valid points about the impact on the abuser’s family, the reason we do not punish is because we know Hashem will. But from a ‘goyish’ point off view, were there no certain punishment in store, as we know there is, then certainly the abuser deserves to be punished.
Sirvoddmort – Firstly, when I wrote ‘moral’, I was talking from a Jewish point of view. I was simply leaving the Halachic aspect aside, not talking in the hypothetical situation where nobody here was Jewish and therefore all other Jewish principles were also gone.
But even from a goyishe point of view, ‘morally’ <ask PAA if that has any merit to exist>, I hold that punishment purely for the sake of revenge is almost* pointless. There is no reason to punish somebody for past deeds. What have you to gain? What has he to gain? The concept of vengeance, the way I see it from a purely moral standpoint, is baseless.
The only reason I see to punish a committer of crimes is the deterrent to stop other criminals doing similar atrocities. And that, as I explained before <although DY disagrees>, that would enter the entirely different topic of the ‘end justifying the means’. Which we can debate in a different thread, if you want to try that (#KTCRIM)
yekke2 – your post above is beautiful but false. You are so wrong about so much of what you are writing. You speak an awesome theory, you are 100% right about what SHOULD be, but unfortunately you are wrong about real life, how things are dealt with and what actually happens. I’ve noticed the naivete in many posts on this thread and others in regard to abuse and abusers and I didn’t want to bring it up because I do not approve of the global bashing that usually follows. Please know tho that the more you insist, the more painful it is to people who lived thru it and met up with nothing resembling what you write.
— Syag
I’m sorry if anybody was offended by anything I wrote, and please feel free to argue with anything you feel is incorrect. What happens in real life that we don’t know about? What actually happens? The purpose in these threads is that people like you, who are apparently unfortunately more knowledgeable about these things than us, should come forth and write your opinion.
I’m not sure exactly which post (I’ve posted quite a few on this thread) you are arguing with. Doesn’t sound like the halachic ones… Would you care to specify which post and what you have to add to it?
Whats in a name – Obviously, the same answer applies. No one is minimizing the status of an abuser to be any better than a theif or a murderer. But there is no heter to be moiser on somebody for no good reason. And even if there was a heter, I wouldn’t do it. Because there is nothing to accomplish.
Its amazing how many chumras and protections one will go to not to eat trief, but are willing to be real Makil when it comes to an Abuser they are “Willing to give them the benefit of the doubt”
If someone was a butcher and “accidently” sold trief meat, would you be so forgiving?
ZD – Nobody is “Makil” when it comes to an Abuser. They are Machmir. There are ??? ???? issurim potentially involved in reporting a suspected crime to the government. Both ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????. Being Makil means not thinking before you speak.
And nobody is ever willing to give an abuser the benefit of the doubt. Nobody says that an abuser is accidental.
The only slight “????? ????” is that they are to be pitied for finding themselves at the matzav they are. It isn’t totally self-caused.
On the moral issue I must take umbrage. From a purely moral standpoint, the abuser deserves to be punished (if we are certain they committed said abuse, of course). We simply believe that in today’s world we have neither the power to punish the abusers ourselves nor the right to give them over to the authorities. The reason we do not is because it is ossur and hakol beyad Hashem. Not because it would in some way impact their family. This argument would be fairer if the abuse in question was only a suspicion.
Do you mind to rephrase your argument? I don’t quite catch your meaning here.
While you do that, please explain what you mean by the fact that he is deserving of punishment from a moral standpoint.
Daas Yochid:
Of course, I am referring to locking up the abuser. He is deserving, and he brought about the situation that locking him up is a deterrent through his own actions.
I similarly wouldn’t support locking up an accused abuser who is actually an innocent person, though it might be a deterrent.
The motive isn’t revenge; the motive is prevention, but we still need to differentiate between the innocent and the guilty.
And I think that this is the bottom line of what the OP is driving at: is punishment/revenge sufficient reason to report/ lock someone up, or does there need to be a benefit? If there does need to be a benefit, which type of benefit might be excluded? These are theoretical questions, and they may indeed be of no practical import.
I’m not sure. Would you say the same thing if this guy was punkt guilty of a different sin? You agree there is no intrinsic reason to lock up an abuser who will not be doing so again. The only reason to do so is to act as a deterrent to others. In other words, wrong as he may be, what he did doesn’t warrant the punishment you want to give him. So what are you giving it to him for? To accomplish something else. Why does being ‘guilty’ justify that?
Yekke2, so we agree that rodef isn’t relevant. We’re not discussing killing him (as much as some people would like to), we’re discussing reporting. I’m not sure why you brought it up.
The point was that the Heter is two pronged: (a) You can violate any Bein Odom Lechaveiro means of ???? ?????? ???? ??????, and (b) Hilchos Mesira itself can allow you to report such a person. There could be halachic authorities who will not allow Mesirah on somebody affecting only individuals (for example an abusive father/husband who isn’t a public villain), yet because of Roidef will allow you to report it. They both apply in different situations.
But you’re right, in the OPs case, Mesirah is no problem even without coming on to Roidef.
It must be Thursday. I never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Daas Yochid:
Yekke2, forget about the technicalities – isn’t he a “rodef” because we know how abuse ruins the victims’ lives? I don’t mean literally to <codekill him, but shouldn’t we do whatever we can, including reporting to the authorities, to prevent him from hurting someone else?
I was discussing the Heter as a Roidef, which only applies in certain cases – by a ???? to be ???? any ????? ??????????? over the age of 9/3. This would allow you to ‘transgress’ Hilchos Mesirah.
As I believed I mentioned in “Point (b)” above, even without Hilchos Roidef, the Shach and Sma explain the Mechaber to allow Mesirah in a case where there is monetary or physical harm. So yes, even without being a Roidef it would be allowed to report a confirmed molester.
I also don’t know why deterrence shouldn’t be in the same category. If locking him up will prevent others from abusing, that will save victims from untold agony, serving the same purpose as preventing him from repeating his crimes.
My point was that locking somebody ‘undeserving’ up simply as a deterrence against others perpetrating the same crime is a case of the Ends Justifying the Means, which in this instance would be a problem. You seem to be suggesting that any jailing that would cause less victims should be made, even if not deserving? Imagine, for arguments sake, locking up the Rav of each shul would somehow cause the abuser to take less victims (stupid example). Would you lock up the Rav?
zahavasdad – The OP gave a very simple but rare case – the abuser is disabled in a way that makes it obvious he cannot do it again.
Copied from another thread:
Reb Elyashiv zt”l: Kovetz Teshuvos 3:231
Answer: [Yes]
:Here are links to some of the Mareh Mekomos I quoted
???”? ???? ??? ? ??’ ?”? (See Ra”e there who infers from Rambam; not in link)
Halachic Discussion:
(a) Is a Molester considered a Roidef, in which case it is ???? ?????? ?????, and obviously reporting is also permitted?
This depends on the nature of the case. The Gemara Sanhedrin lists three cases which are ???? ?????? ?????. One of them is a Roidef to perform any capital sexual offence (Koreis/Misah), including Eishes Ish, Homosexuality and Incest. The Achronim dispute the status of a Roidef Niddah (See Avnei Nezer/R’ Akiva Eiger), which would include any adult female.
This din of Roidef would only apply, obviously, to somebody intending to perform a full maaseh. Somebody who would just molest would not be considered a Roidef, according to this. However, he would probably have the Halachah of a Sofeik Roidef, which is in itself a disputed topic (I think Minchas Chinuch/Achiezer; possibly before that as well) whether to consider such a person a Roidef.
Somebody molesting a non-related 3 year old girl, however, would not be considered a Roidef. The issur of a ??? ?? ????? is not even a ???????? necessarily, according to the Raavad (The Rambam argues).
(b) If he isn’t a Roidef, can we report anyway? See Shulchan Aruch Cho”M 388:7/8 with Shach & Sema about somebody who causes physical or monetary loss to individuals. I will try be ????? about this another time.
(c) Mesirah in 2015: It could well be that Mesirah was only a problem decades ago, when the governments were cruel and dictators ruled with iron fists, killing and harming anybody in their way. Perhaps in a modern day democratic government, with supposed just legal system, and comfortable prisons which do not threaten the wellbeing of the person you are informing on – but rather a severe annoyance. See Aruch Hashulchan CM 388:7 and Tshuvos Tzitz Eliezer ??? ?”? ??’ ??.
In every shailah of whistle blowing about a molester, there are two main categories under which to discuss:
A: Should I report him?
- Moral – What have I got to gain vs what I have to lost
Halachah – Is it muttar to report him?
B: How do I know he is an abuser?
- Do I know for certain he is an abuser? Or am I jumping to hasty conclusions? And does my knowledge come from halachically sound sources? (Think women, children…)
But if there is genuinely no question of them repeating the abuse, and this is possible (If they are now severely disabled, for example), then is it our duty to ensure they are punished?”
How about our duty to show the one who was abused that we care about what he went through? To show other abusers that we care about what they do?
The abuser deserves no sympathy for what he did. He should be reported to the real authorities. No more covering this up.
Covering up shows other abusers that if the circumstances are right, they can get away with a grievous action.
Covering up shows the victim that we are disregarding what they went through and protecting their abuser.
Covering up is absolutely disgusting.
— Whats_in_a_name
Anyone that witnessed the agony that victims of abuse go through for the rest of their lives would not even dream of letting the abuser go free.
True, Hashem will most definitely punish the abuser- He’s even begun already, it seems, in this case.
That doesn’t take away from the fact that the victim would gain immeasurable relief, knowing that the abuser is experiencing the consequences that they so deserve, having destroyed the victim’s life.
Please dont have rachmanus on the abuser…. Hashem yerachem, please don’t make that sick mistake.
— Letakein Girl
LG – This post is very unlike you. Your normally advocating to give people chances, not to jump to criticize, to be nice to everyone. This is a pretty harsh judgment!
Before we start from a halachic standpoint, lets talk about it morally. You are destroying a family – Sholom Bayis, Shidduchim, Parnassah, Peace of Mind, Happiness. You are destroying a man [albeit a disgusting man, although that too needs discussion]. You are starting another scandal that will rip the Jewish Communities to shreds as various Rabbanim take sides and the Kehillas fight. You are creating International Chillul Hashem.
What is the purpose of this? You mentioned two reasons: (a) To show the victim that you care. (b) As a deterrent for other abusers. The first reason is definitely foolish. You cannot destroy a family just in order to give ‘closure’ to a victim. There are other ways to show you care; provide therapy, warmth, support. The second reason is a more difficult aspect – the ends justifying the means. Also something to be discussed separately. You are saying that although he doesn’t warrant being locked up, if we don’t lock him up then we will cause others to follow. Is that a reason to punish him?
Then there is Halacha: Involved in reporting to Goyishe courts are numerous potential problems (tbd): (i) Mesirah (ii) Loshon Hara (iii) Lifnihem vlo lifnei aku”m. Plus the ??? ??? ????? problems of destroying a family. Halacha cannot be pusehd away simply because you want to ‘give closure’.
Another point – PBA rightly pointed out (although this point must be handled carefully) on a different thread a couple of years ago that the attitude of disgust towards abusers is not always correct. Often (obviously not always, but more often than you would think), the abuser is himself a victim of abuse. This does not justify anything, but perhaps the abuser needs pity, not hatred.
Of course it’s happening in your own head, but why does that mean that it can’t be real?
Disclaimer: If anything like this comes about lmaiseh, ask your LOR. Obviously, no practical advice should be taken from anybody on an online forum.
This is an issue which needs to be weighed heavily. Every tiny detail in every different scenario could be a huge game-changer. There are a couple of factors that need to be considered in every case – not just the specialized one NeutiquamErro posted (I’m not sure why he chose that case):
(i) The Abuser
(ii) The Abusers Family
(iii) The Victim
(iv) Potential Victims, aka Society.
(v) Yiddishkeit in General (Cheshbon of Chillul Hashem)
In the case you pointed out, there is little to gain by reporting to the government. There is no ????? ????? or ????? ????? (which would be involved in the Moser issue which we will discuss later), because there will be no more victims. The Abuser and his Family have only to lose – also something to go into later. The Victim gains nothing except ‘closure’, and Yiddishkeit would definitely suffer a great loss of Chillul Hashem, both among the Goyim and among ourselves.
I would say, therefore, that it would be both assur and wrong to report such a person. And absolutely no motive to do so besides revenge, which is not a Jewish trait. “Punishment” meted out by individuals is not something we have in Yiddishkeit.
What could possibly be a justifiable reason to ruin a family’s name? To make the wife and children walk through the streets with shame? To lose the abuser his job? To ruin generations of shidduchim? To ignite the fires of Loshon Hara and Sinas Chinam that already destroy Klal Yisroel?
There are other cases, however, which need more ????? ???? than this pretty clear cut situation.
Sirvoddmort – There is a point in leaving off with a clear question at the end, because everybody else knows that remaining unanswered is tantamount to losing the argument.
ZD – There is definitely no business which requires full internet access to the end, and even if there was, why can’t you use WebChaver*?
*Webchaver is a program which doesn’t filter anything, but sends a log of all sites visited etc periodically to a person of your choice. It can use ‘flags’ as well; if you enter something questionable, it alerts your chosen ‘shoimer’. This won’t help, of course, for adverts and popups, but it can definitely be used as a deterrent for being ???? in the terrible nisyonois.
And besides, your supposedly unique position aside
Ahem – You didn’t read the generalization at the end of his post – “You do not know how many people need to phone for business (which is most people nowadays)”.
Another reason why im an am haaretz. Never got why yiddishkeit allows stuff for parnasah reasons. You’l tell me darkei noam or something but i still dont get it. Anyone know how to work this out? Chol hamoed- great example. Daver haavud? thats okay then, otherwise youre being mevazeh moados and dont have a chelek in olam habah.
Yiddishkeit does not allow stuff for Parnassah reasons at all. I touched upon this before. The point isn’t that we allow ????? if it is a ??? ?????; the point is that if it is a Davar HaAvud, it isn’t a ?????.
No Rav I have heard of allows unfiltered Internet for Parnassah. The point is that people who need it for Parnassah can make arrangements for the minimal amount of Internet necessary, and to customize the filters to accommodate the work. Obviously this will not allow access to the real filth online, and should hopefully be able to block out anything below your standards.
Of course, if no other job is available and your only option is a job which needs access to Shmutz, ask your LOR for advice. (He will probably say ???? ??? ?????, but hey – who am I to pasken?)
I may sound vain, by I very much like my succinct summary of the conundrum.
Sam2: yekke2: No, I don’t. And I’m not gonna give the full rant because it won’t help anything.
Please give the full rant. Personal favour?
The way I understand it, the Minhag comes about as a result of various stringencies accepted in different households over Pesach. I don’t use some ingredients that you do, you don’t use some ingredients that I do. (Some differences are famous – eg. Gebrokts, Kitniyos, Garlic, Chickens; others are more personal. Some people won’t use chocolate in their products on Pesach. Some people won’t use anything they cannot produce themselves. In my mothers family, they wash every peice of meat/fish before beginning any work; thus eliminating any processed meats or minced products. Most people I know don’t do that.) Some people rely on Hechsherim that others don’t (not necessarily because they are more or less Frum, but because the Rabbi I follow advised me against it and his Rabbi didn’t).
As a result of that, I might not want to eat in your house on Pesach, due to suspicions that your cooking doesn’t fit exactly with my Kashrus requirements. (Not standards, requirements.) That could be solved by discussing everything properly, but (i) people get offended that you question them, (ii) if you go to some but not to others, you will end up offending those who you turn down. Therefore, people make a blanket rule not to eat in other people’s houses over Pesach.
Is this so terrible?
Sholom Aleichem, Zev7. Welcome to the CR.
Interesting point. I think you are saying that a person does something not because of any personal motivation, and certainly not for his own gratification, but simply for the sake of it. You described it almost as ‘instinctively’.
Whether such a Madreiga exists I can’t tell you. But that shouldn’t be pshat in the Rambam “????? ???? ???”; according to the way you understand it isn’t a conscious logical decision to do something; it is an instinctive action. Is that called ????? ?????? Is that what HKB”H wants from us? I could understand that HKBH would want us to acheive such a Madreiga that this is possible, but I don’t think the ideal performance of a Mitzvah should be something other than a positive decision to do this albeit all other considerations.
I have heard an interesting Pshat in the Akeida – it says ????? ????? ?? ???. The Meforshim talk about why we need to know this. Obviously taking something involved stretching to do it. I once heard (don’t remember mekor) that Avraham Avinu was on a level that his body instinctively did the ???? ?. He had no Torah, no form of knowledge of the commandments, but his absolute purity allowed his body to be on a level of complete holiness, and his body would automatically do what was desired by HKBH. However, taking the knife wasn’t ???? ?; HKBH only told him ?????? ?? ?????. HKBH ultimately didn’t want the knife. Therefore he required the extra effort ????? ???.
ZD – I was thinking of prefacing “I know I’m not your posek and my opinion means nothing to you…”, but I thought I’d give you the enjoyment of telling it to me yourself.
No way to white list sites if I dont know what they are
Did I tell you to whitelist your phone? I believe I told you that a blacklist filter is necessary. Any ‘business’ which requires you to use websites blocked by Blacklist filters requires serious halachic clarification. There is a difference, you know. And if you need access to all the adverts out there, I hope you have halachic backing for that (more than just ‘poseks who are relatives’ who know what you do and have no problem, unless that means they explicitly told you its okay). Are the indecent adverts muttar to look at for business?
And, lets get the issue down to the core, like I attempted a couple of time before – nobody seems willing to answer.
Can you tell me honestly that you have never seen anything that is detrimental to yourself as a Frum Yid, or a ??? ???? online? You have never visited a site that you wouldn’t do if somebody you knew was looking over your shoulder? You have never seen – whether purposely or otherwise – an image that falls below your standards?
A couple of months ago, I was discussing this with somebody, who told me that in the book “Permission to Believe”, the author discusses exactly this issue. I haven’t read the book, I don’t know the author, I don’t know any details about the religious standing of the book, but a Mareh Mokom it is!
YWN, Bobov 45 Rebbe Says Rav Wosner Became A Gadol HaDor Despite Not Being Talented As A Youth
Around the time of the Asifa, this website and another one like this who are well known in the frum velt came up by name and I heard from more than one Rav, about it.
Not that is any of your business, but I make my parnassah from the internet and smart phones. I am constantly in need of looking up stuff to see if I should buy or sell and need to answer questions. If you are willing to take over my income then we can talk. And I do have close family members who are poseks and they know exactly what I do for a living and they have no problem with it.
ZD – Thank you for your response. The first one that actually addresses the issue rather than circumventing it. If you do need it for business, and have the consent of your poskim, by all means have a smartphone. But if I was your Posek, I would say you must also have a blacklist filter to stop you being ????. And you should use Adblock, etc., to “Kosher” the Internet.
BTW, I don’t have a smartphone. And if I did, I would have downloaded the YWN App and then blocked the browser, like family members of mine. The computer I use to post is under the Windows Live Family Safety filter, which is a whitelist filter controlled by my father. The only allowed websites are YWN, Gmail, DebkaFile, MetOffice Weather and Hebrewbooks.
And do you mind quoting the ‘poskim’ who named this website as a place not to be? And if you have heard from poskim who you deem reliable and choshuv enough to quote, why are you here? Surely ignoring the psak of Gedolim is something you wouldn’t do?!
“And it saves lives…”
So does a filter on a smartphone. One saves life, the other saves your soul. The difference is that a smoke detector is necessary for the unlikely event of a fire, but filters are there to take away the constant pull of the Evil Inclination.
Is it so difficult to comprehend?