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No, really, don’t be sorry.
Errm – Can I lodge a personal request that if you have to run anywere, that you put all updates in this thread, instead of hijacking other threads or opening countless new threads that may disturb the general public? I think it would be very understanding if you simply kept this thread open, and keep your energy boosts to this specific thread. I’m sure all those interested will follow the thread closely.
ROB: I deliberately did not get involved in the pro/anti Zionism debate. That debate is not objective; noone is going to hear or say anything new, the debate will circle and circle until the mods get so fed up of the insults going both ways and will close the threads. Both sides are set in their opinions, and will blindly deny the truths of the opposing side.
I simply pointed out the falsity in calling the State of Israel religious when Avi K decided that it is ‘libellous’ to consider the State of Israel irreligious. I never suggested it plays any role in the discussion.
The State of Israel are not ????? ???? ??????, Ergo a Chillul Hashem.
Not like you, 147. I expected exact number of days, hours and minutes, Yekke2:- This is because I don’t which Pesak you Yekke2 hold by? Do you hold that Yom ha’Atzmaut is held biZemano on Friday Iyyor 5th? or Mukdom to Thursday Iyyor 4th.
Not wishing to get involved in this Machlokes ha’Achronim, I felt it safer to stay aloof of deciding 1 way verses the other way.
Now thats more like it!
To write that the state’s halachic standards are not enough for any frum jew is a ridiculous argument and a false one.
ROB: Do you think the halachic standards of the State are enough for any frum Jew?
@TheProf1: There is certainly nothing holy about the State of Israel. The land of Eretz Yisroel has ?????, not the government.
Yekke, absolutely. I already posted that the geula comes slowly in stages (Yerushalmi, Berachot 1:1).
So “not yet” wasn’t referring to the aspirations of the State of Israel, it was referring to our desire for the rebuilding of ??????? ??? ?????, which will be ruled by a ????? ?????, ????? ?????? ???.
[The Brisker Rav was very upset with those who were ???? the word “??????” after ???? ???? ????????, because it implied that we are halfway there; all that is necessary is the rebuilding. See ???? ??? ?????]
As for the nature of the State, calling it extremely secular is libelous…. – Avi K
What a ridiculous thing to say. The State of Israel is irreligious. They are not ???? ???? ??????. The Leaders of the State do not follow Halachah. The founders of the State famously did everything in their power to ensure that Yiddishkeit would be forgotten. “Secular” – according to the first translation that came up on google – means “not subject to or bound by religious rule”. The State of Israel does not – by any stretch of imagination – follow Shulchan Aruch, or any other Code of Jewish Law. The State of Israel is irreligious at best; many would call it anti-religious.
You can support Zionism, you can believe in whatever you wish, you can convince yourself of any philosophy that pleases you – but please don’t let that blind you to the Chillul Hashem that considers itself representatives of the Jewish Nation. – Yekke2
Yekke, you are simply incorrect… – Avi K
After the discussion, I still stand by my original position. You are correct, Avi K, that there are some concessions that the government have made to show that they are a ‘Jewish State’. See Sam2’s post for a succinct collection of outlooks on these ‘small mercies’. Personally, I doubt the motives of any ‘religious activity’ in the state is ??? ????, but still better than the alternative of being blatantly irreligious. However, regardless of these concessions, we all agree that the State of Torah do not consider themselves bound to the ???? ?. So I don’t get your point.
Is Zionism the Yetzer Hora? we are already “Toch Sheloshim Yom” of Yom ha’Atzma’ut, and the question on this title is filthy disgusting, and answer is:- A resounding No! But clearly such a libelous title, should be closed down by the moderators immediately if not sooner.
Not like you, 147. I expected exact number of days, hours and minutes, and perhaps an original name for Yom Ha’atzma’ut. Not up to your usual standard!
If the question is does the State of Israel act 100% according to Halacha, the answer is “not yet but it does substantially act according to Halacha”
This is a misleading statement. “Not yet” seems to imply that there are aspirations to achieve the specified madreigo.
flatbusher:
… there may be those who will accept what is written though the psak may have been given in a specific situation or the poster misinterpreted the halachah
Interesting that it bother you so that people will accept a ??? that is ?????? “without proof”. What’s the worst that can happen – a guy won’t watch a movie even though it may be muttar?
Your original post claimed you are worried that posters misinterpret the halachah. Now [here] you have a problem that there may be poskim who are mattir, and therefore it isn’t fair to only bring down the machmirim?
I have the same problem as you. Sorry Yekke, edited a bit-29The variety of reading material for a Jewish teen/adult is sorely lacking.
Although my parents were very careful to censor what I read, I did end up reading things that I regret reading. I don’t read secular books any more, and I can’t remember the last time I read a Jewish novel. My reading is limited to articles in Jewish Magazines [Mishpacha, Binah, Ami, etc.] (- some of which have surprising amounts of toichen!).
As a Yeshiva Bochur it is less of a problem than a school-aged teenager or a girl – during zman, someone who is correctly motivated doesn’t have time to read anything [obviously this doesn’t apply to everyone], and even bein hazmanim there is a lot more interest in a broader range of Torah subjects; dozens of fascinating seforim which we can learn even during time set aside to relax.
However, ‘lack of options’ isn’t a reason to be mattir something which is wrong. If there is something wrong with the book, the lack of kosher alternatives isn’t a hetter.
RebYidd23 – Only if you know for certain that the child is mature and stable enough that he won’t do anything dangerous. If there is a big chance that your child will be doing things ??? ?????, must you still let them do things on their own? Certain parents can trust certain of their children when they reach a certain age not be ???? in ???????; other children are sheltered enough that they don’t know what the ??????? are. However, avid readers who enjoy ‘browsing’ through bookshelves with books written for ‘young adults’ may be reading things (a) that are assur, (b) that can introduce them to concepts and language that they shouldn’t be reading/thinking about.
flatbusher – I never said they shouldn’t have a library card; I warned parents to make it their business to be aware of what their children are reading.
Flatbusher – Out of interest – What disturbed you one hour ago that didn’t disturb you for the past 9 years?
DY – Actually, I couldn’t be bothered finding the page on Hebrewbooks myself [the navigation there annoys me and my browser], so I copied the link from this post!
Ooh… Cookies are not so healthy. Too much sugar, and often margarine. Better not.
The books I am referring to are not for young children. I am more referring to books aimed at ‘young adults’ (seventh grade through high school). There are books that are ????? ?????. There are books that contain Kefira.
pedantic /p??dant?k/adjective excessively concerned with minor details or rules; overscrupulous.
although we are still ahead in our political system, politicians…
You clearly weren’t listening to the House of Commons this week.
I was free to read whatever I wanted and turned out fine
The issue of reading ????? ?????? is not only about the negative influence it has on the person; they are ???? to read even if they don’t influence you. “Turning out fine” doesn’t mean that you did nothing wrong.
Seriously, I wouldn’t let my (smaller) child take books out without supervision of some kind.
Why would you let your older kids (what age do you classify as older?) without supervision?
Many, many books in libraries are problematic – and we’re talking about issurei de’oiraisah. If you don’t let your children read books with adult references/content [and you shouldn’t!], then don’t let them go to the library unsupervised. If your child is a ‘bookworm’, the chances are he will be reading things he shouldn’t.
I can tell you from personal experience – I was always a very avid reader; when I picked up a book, I was in a different world until I put it down – which certainly wasn’t until it was finished. My parents were very careful what they allowed me to read; my mother read each book before I was allowed to read it. I never bought a book into the house that my mother hadn’t okayed. Yet, while browsing in the library for new reads, I came across things that my mother would be horrified to see me reading. Books that I regret ever picking up.
The only way to truly safeguard your kids – or yourself – from reading ????? ?????? is to only allow books that you already know to be Kosher, either from your own reading or from someone you trust. To allow your kids to read unsupervised in the library is something very detrimental to their yiddishkeit, and certainly ossur.
(This isn’t just my opinion. Almost every guy I know who used to read secular books agrees that they have ‘stumbled across’ – or read – books they wouldn’t read loud in front of their mothers [which is a pretty good guideline of what is considered Kosher])
kfb – You didn’t answer the OPs question. Especially seeing as you have been in both camps – MO and Yeshivish, which are diametrically opposed – can you explain the difference between MO and Yeshivish? [Not what you enjoy about being MO – what is the difference?]
Avi K – Look me in the eye and answer this one question honestly: Do you believe that the State of Israel follows Shulchan Aruch?
Zd:
So now someone who became a Zionist after the Holocaust is considered OTD?
That would depend on whether the outlook and Hashkafos of “Zionism” are compliant with Torah or not, which is altogether a different discussion [- a discussion that has been rehashed in various forms in the CR, generally ending “Closed” because posters unfortunately find it difficult to discuss without getting personal]. I never insinuated that it is against Torah, I took issue with bringing proofs from children or grandchildren of Gedolim.
As an aside, Rav Wasserman’s grandchildren , including the boy named for him, attended Zionist yeshivas in Brooklyn.
?? ????? ???? ?? ????. Why do you think that the decisions of grandchildren reflect on the opinion of their grandparents?? Many, many gedolim had children who strayed from the Torah path.
As for the nature of the State, calling it extremely secular is libelous….
What a ridiculous thing to say. The State of Israel is irreligious. They are not ???? ???? ??????. The Leaders of the State do not follow Halachah. The founders of the State famously did everything in their power to ensure that Yiddishkeit would be forgotten. “Secular” – according to the first translation that came up on google – means “not subject to or bound by religious rule”. The State of Israel does not – by any stretch of imagination – follow Shulchan Aruch, or any other Code of Jewish Law. The State of Israel is irreligious at best; many would call it anti-religious.
You can support Zionism, you can believe in whatever you wish, you can convince yourself of any philosophy that pleases you – but please don’t let that blind you to the Chillul Hashem that considers itself representatives of the Jewish Nation.
Some did change their mind. The Maunkatcher Rebbe was famously against zionism, but his son after the war changed his mind and became and zionist (and left his chassidic Yishua , but remained charedi) because of it
A son not following in the ways of his father does not constitute a change of mind. Unfortunately, it is a phenomena that can be applied to many ‘sons of gedoilim’.
Not to speed.
Most frum drivers don’t observe this mitzvoh.
To quote the rebbe, Shlomo Carlebach: “There is an eighth guest at every Succah, my beautiful friends – Eliyahu is also there. Because Eliyahu – how could he not come?”
A close friend of mine was dating a girl who had medical issues. He was considered a ‘top bochur’ in society, and he had no need to ‘compromise’. I asked him what motivated him to say yes to this shidduch.
He told me that his mother had Crohns; when she was dating someone, he terminated the shidduch when she told him she suffered from the illness. This person married a different girl, who was diagnosed a year later with Crohns. My friend learnt a lesson from this story that there is no escaping Hashem’s plan. If He wants you to have a sick wife, a sick wife you shall have.
#KTCRIM
See what the Rambam writes in Iggeres Teiman about the future [now present] golus of Yishmael: There is no point making peace with them; Dovid Hamelech was referring to Islam when he said ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??????, which the Rambam explains is that even as we negotiate for peace, they are at war with us.
Have a look at the Rambam’s advice on how to deal with Yishmoel.
Do you mean longest threads in time (longest still-running) or longest in length?
These three spring to mind:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/funny-shidduch-stories
What is the derech that MO follows and how does it differ from traditional Orthodoxy?
From the above discussion, it seems the difference between traditional Orthodoxy and MO is that MO doesn’t follow a derech.
according to R Krohn (and others) in his book about naming a child, yiddish is secular.
With all due respect, why is Rabbi Krohn – certified mohel he may be – liscenced to decide these things?
To all those debating chareidim not keeping halocho:
Joseph and nisht: There are Chareidi Rabbonim who (mis)read Shulchan Aruch into thinking that you can cheat on taxes. They are few (and getting fewer), but they certainly exist.
If my poisek tells me that opening bottles on Shabbos is an issur deoirayso, and others learn the sugyas and are mattir, these people are not less ‘chareidi’ in my eyes, even if according to me they are not in accordance with halocho. If a Chareidi rabbi believes something is muttar – even if he is mistaken – he is still Chareidi.
This is a far cry from breaking halocho because we are ‘with the times’.
Why is it that people look at the MO people who don’t follow the rules and claim they represent the “true” MO, but chareidim who don’t follow the rules are deemed the exceptions?
Chareidim who do things wrong don’t do it beshita. If a Chareidi women would wear something which is not tzenua, or be mechallel shabbos, she would not claim to be right, she would understand it is wrong. Nobody sticks their wrongdoings and makes it part of the ideology. In MO, however, many labelled as MO will take their laxness in Halocho and blame it on the MO shitta.
A Chareidi person who commits fraud will either admit he is wrong, or find some sort of heter, but won’t say “we don’t keep halocho”.
This is an age-old dilemma. Kicking children out of yeshivas is different to not allowing them in in the first place. I am absolutely, incontrovertibly NOT saying that anybody who comes from a Baal Teshuva house should not be allowed into frum schools. What I am saying is that a careful judgement must be made of who to accept into the schools, and if needs be, open another way. Why should one family’s careful chinuch be thrown down the drain by one friend who wasn’t privileged with the same? (I have personally seen heimishe boys being dragged down terribly by people who should never have been in the school in the first place) It isn’t about the history of the parents, it is about the standards of the family. If the family keep the school’s standards, then they should be allowed in. If they don’t, it doesn’t matter what other good things they do and how far they have come; their kids don’t belong in the mosdos.
Obviously, this is subject that needs Daas Torah to decide. There are conflicting sources for this in the Torah. (eg Dinah marrying Eisav; R’ Yossi ben Kisma; Yackov travelling with Eisav…), and it isn’t for any of us to decide. But I can tell you many stories from personal experience how one child brought down so many others, when he should have simply been refused entry and put into another school which was more suitable.
yekke2: Try reading Torah Umadda by R’ Norman Lamm. He goes through different approaches, including the Rambam and R’ Hirsch, showing why ALL knowledge really helps with understanding the Torah (and therefore isn’t really secular).
So it’s not learning secular subjects for the sake of it, it is all for Torah then. That is very different to what was written above.
I wonder how many from your class came from frum homes, or if your statistics are true at all. I’ve never seen anything like what you talk about, from any MO school
The fact that those are the people attending MO schools also says something, even if they are not the run-of-the-mill MOs.
One of my friends from abroad – call him Avrohom – was dating locally, and somebody texted me, asking me if I knew anything about it. I knew about it, but I tried to push away my friend, asking him what makes him think that it true. He sent me a list of clues that led him to his suspicions. I replied with a list of rebuttals – innocent alternative explanations to each clue. But I sent it to the wrong guy: I sent it to the Chosson by mistake. And the chosson didn’t know that I knew about it, and i didn’t want him to know that i knew. So I followed up with another text immediately saying “Just got this from someone lol”; whatever he was thinking, it threw him off course. We laughed about it afterwards at the engagement.
Pretty embarrassing when that happens, and it wasn’t the first time i’ve texted the person i was talking about rather than texting the person I was talking to!
I would hope we would all want to shed light on what they ARE and not what they aren’t. I would hope we would promote loving them, versus hating their shortcoming. Not everyone was as priviledged to grow up in a home surounding Torah.
@OURTorah: That was a beautiful post, and thank you for that. You are certainly right – both that (a) we must be careful what we write because we may be offending many people and (b) we should never, ever be judging people.
There is a difference between ‘judging’ and ‘accepting’, in my eyes. This is a very delicate point, and I hope I can express it properly. I truly have the utmost respect for people like your family, who continually strive to be good, upstanding Jews in spite of their backgrounds. And when it comes to the ‘shortcomings’, as you put it, we can never judge people until we experience the same things (I can tell you from experience a few eye-opening stories that made me realize this, even without the Mishna ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??????). We must love every Jew for what they are. And I definitely condemn the ‘houlier-than-thou’ attitude.
Acceptance, however, is a different thing entirely. Turning a blind eye and saying “Live and Let Live”; not recognizing these shortcomings as shortcomings, but allowing them under the guise of ‘we are difference’, is something we won’t do. If something is below our standards, we will not lower to it out of respect to those who are on those standards. We cannot let our children see people with standards that fall short of what we feel is required, and laugh it off by saying that ‘we are different’. And while we very much respect people for what they are, and understand that they are not necessarily lesser people just because they started off on a lesser note, accepting them with open arms is not necessarily an ideal option. And more to the point, agreeing and supporting the ideals is also wrong.
This happens to almost everybody on a degree, wherever you are on the spectrum. I have family members who are incredibly polite but won’t eat in my house, won’t come out on trips with us, because we are not as super-Frum as them. And I don’t feel one bit offended, because I agree with them. Politeness and Love is not a reason to let down standards.
People on the receiving end often find it difficult to accept. When I won’t allow my kids [theoretical] to go to a friends house because the friend sits and watches TV and I don’t want my son doing the same, it isn’t an insult, nor does it mean I don’t value the person for what he is. We simply have a difference in standards; if you have a reliable source for your standards, ???? ???? ??. And if you don’t, then we hope and pray that you will have the strength to overcome the ??????? in due course, and we don’t judge you for taking time over it.
I was once learning with a boy who was not Shomer Shabbos, who came from a family who were anti-religious, and he was ‘checking out the frum world’ to see what it was like. He came to my yeshiva as part of a program, and I was learning with him. We started a discussion (the usual God and Holocaust, Prove your religion, molesting Rabbis…). In the middle, he suddenly burst out with a complaint: He said that it was all very good for me to be patiently explaining to him about right and wrong, but it’s not fair! I was born and raised in a frum loving home, so it is easy for me to ‘become a Rabbi’ [his words]. He was born in an environment that made it totally impossible for him to do the same. He was very bothered that he wasn’t given an equal opportunity.
I told him two points:
(a) HKB”H wants different things from different people – it could be that his entire tafkid is to make that move to keep Shabbos or eat Kosher, and nobody expects him to be giving a Shiur to 300 people. Not everyone is supposed to be a ‘Rabbi’.
(b) More importantly, I told him that not only do I not look down on him for being who he is, but I respect him a lot more than most of my peers. Because HKB”H doesn’t give anybody a nisayon they cannot overcome. If Hashem gave him this particular nisayon and not me, it may well be because he had the moral strength of character to overcome the hurdle which I would not be able to overcome. HKB”H gave me the head start of being Frum because I apparently wouldn’t have been able to make that jump. It is my shortcomings that placed me where I am, and his strengths that put him in that nisayon.
This difference manifests itself in watching TV/movies, listening to non-Jewish music, reading non-Jewish books, and limiting internet access.
This is a far cry from simply “integrating” with the goyim. What I’d really like to know is whether the allowing TVs, Movies, unfiltered internet etc. is something they feel is right, or if it is a sad repercussion of their lifestyle?
Secondly, as indicated in the YU slogan Torah u’Madda, MO tend to believe that any knowledge is inherently important and worth pursuing. Chareidim tend to view secular knowledge as nothing more than a means to an ends.
I really don’t like writing against Gedoilei Yisroel, so before I say something stupid can somebody please show me a Mareh Mokom of any of the Rabbis who support learning ????? ???????? without necessity?
However, there is another distinction as well (besides attitudes towards chumros, which I mentioned above): The question of balancing one’s obligation to support one’s family and one’s obligation to learn Torah. Chareidim will usually try to stay in learning for as long as possible, even if that means supported by their parents/parents-in-laws, wife, or government programs. MO tend to focus on earning a livelihood starting from shortly after high school.
Again – is this the hashkafah or it’s unpleasant manifestation? In the Chareidi world, great value is put on Torah. Could it be that less people stay in learning and go to work before they need to because there is less appreciation of Torah in those circles? Perhaps because too much emphasis is placed on things that contradict Torah lifestyle?
@kfb, @damoshe – I understand the dictionary definition of ‘interacting with the world’. But – chassidim aside – the charedi yeshivish world also interact with the world in all the ways that conform with halocho. I think the main point that MO is different to Charedi jewry is in another point: something which sounds a lot better when slipped in as part the ‘interacting’ spiel, but perhaps not so noble when examined on its own. And Damoshe pointed it out himself; they don’t shield themselves or their children from outside influences.
As a few posters pointed out, you cannot confuse those who are not Shoimrei Halocho with the ideal MOs; no ideology would be supported by competent MO rabbanim which allowed any breach in Halocho. But I also think that the ‘not sheltering our children’ attitude is a sad result of the MO hashkafa, not the hashkafa itself. And that is what leads to the startling number of people who associate themselves with MO who are not Shoimrei Torah uMitzvos.
Popa – In true PBA style [is there any way to express my reaction to your inimitable style without descending to the degrading level of ‘lol’ or the demeaning emoticons? “Snort”?], you pointed out something very important. The people who are not shoimer halacha in Chareidi world do not let it become part of their shittos. The “theory” of yiddishkeit and the practice are unfortunately too different. But when the wrongdoings enter the ideology – when people do it beshitta – you know something is wrong.
Modern Orthodoxy does not seek to shelter itself from the outside world. It believes that since we will have to interact with it, it is better to understand it, and know how to deal with it. Chareidi Judaism believes it’s better to shield yourself from the world, and not expose yourself to the temptations that are out there.
I don’t really understand what you mean by ‘interacting, understanding and dealing’ with the Modern World. What does that involve? Does this mean socializing with the outside world, having televisions, being part of the western culture (showbiz etc.)?
hey, if we cant trust khaled for his honest and unbiased opinion, who can we trust?
Snort.
What do you think the difference is?
Bump
I heard about a new place opening called Bnos Papa, where they mach good heimish and have fro yos and stuff.
But a caution to overprotective parents: They don’t accept Jews, only women.
As I wrote, they can both cause negative attitudes towards Jews. But there is a difference between forcing them to cooperate with Judaism and forcing them to cooperate with Jews.
Bump