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@LU: Another pitfalls of “boxes” is not just that the more you label things, the more difficult it is to think outside the box (and depending on which box you are referring to, thinking outside of it might not necessarily be a good thing!). A bigger issue is that that boxes can be illusory and misleading. This is because:
(A) People are complex and multi faceted enough that they cannot be defined in one word. And כשם שאין פרצופיהם דומין זל”ז כך אין דיעותיהן דומין זל”ז.
(B) People often portray themselves differently to different people. Your perception of a person or group comes from an extremely limited observational capacity, and often limited only to what s/he chooses to show you.
While there are advantages in being able to use “boxes” definitively, they are very limited, and you generally lose more than you gain.
ZD: There is an issue of the draft in Israel and that Yeshiva Bocherim do not get drafted. However the deal that they dont get drafted includes the provision that they go down to the Draft board and tell them.
The Peleg Yerushalim faction not only does not go to the draft, they do not even go down to the draft board to register
Is the provision that they must go to “tell them”, or that they must register to conscription at a later point in time?
Hitting any Jew “derech nitzayon” is assur.
Negiah is assur “derech chibah”.I’m quite sure that this cannot fall under both categories at the same time.
I would prohibit hitting the woman (I haven’t seen the video) because of Lo Yosif, not because of Lo Sikrevu. I don’t see why hitting women is in any way worse than men.
Lilmod: I’m surprised. It isn’t like you to denounce any Rav or Manhig, especially when you don’t seem to have any specific issues against him. You don’t need to be the Godol Hador to make a difference. And although the title “gadol hador” [should be/is] reserved for the all round Manhigim of Klal Yisroel, it is possible to have a specialty in one niche, and be the worlds foremost expert in that field – just because you are not a posek or manhig in other fields does not take away the expertise in your specific field.
I don’t think, thus, that “most frum Jews should follow the mainstream Yeshivish hashkafa.” is either true or even desirable. As I and many, many others define it, that sounds presumptuous. Within the machne of shomrei mitzvos, elu voelu divrei elokim chayim.
I’m going to try be careful to ensure I understand you. Do you think that just because you adhere to halachah, your philosophical approach and your attitude towards Torah and Mitzvos [and the way they affect our life and lifestyles] are irrelevant, and you are free to choose your own ideals? Or do you agree that there is one correct mindset, just you don’t feel it is what you call ‘mainstream Yeshivish hashkafa’?
Again, please stop putting people in boxes
It’s difficult to have an objective discussion about these type of things without labels. I agree that labels are not definitive, are often misleading, and that it doesn’t mean anything for someone to associate himself with a specific sector (see the “No-True-Scotsman” thread). But to compare and contrast Yeshivos would be impossible without some form of labelling.
To be fair, what I was trying to say about Yeshivish (and it was misunderstood by Rebshidduch, and I see no toeles in arguing it out) was exactly that – judging people’s actions when you can’t know the motives and factors involved in decisions is wrong, and that is really where labels mix us up. The fact that you learn in Kollel doesn’t make you a Ben Torah. It is about attitude, mindset, priorities. If you don’t want to give it a name, אשריך וטוב לך.
It’s our choices that truly define us, far more than our abilities.
It very much depends on the person you are being mekarev. Some people are intellectual, and they need to sit with someone intelligent who can show them that (a) there are answers, we aren’t just fanatics, and (b) to actually answer the questions. Other people have very little sechel [read: Are not thinking people, are happy to subscribe to belief without a ‘knowledge’ per se] , and are led around by their emotions and good feelings. For these people, the “fluffy-kneidlach-syndrome” is more likely to be effective.
Most people, however, will need a combination. The base desire to become Frum will need some form of rational thought, which directly involves Bikush HaEmes. But commitment can only come if negative connotations associated with Yiddishkeit are dispelled, and that is best done through unconditional warmth, acceptance and love. Appealing to both emotions and intellect together is the surest way to motivate someone to take the leap.
Another point – to many people, a well delivered intellectual lecture can appeal to the emotions as well, not just to the intelect.
I wonder – was Dina considered yeshivish?
Snort.
yekke2, do you consider boys who go to movies modern?
If the answer has to be as straight as that, definitely yes.
I consider a guy who only keeps shabbos and kosher and nothing else to be modern.
Is “Modern” synonymous with “not observant”? I thought we were talking about Frum people (definition: People who keep all 613 commandments), and were discussing Yeshivish/Modern in terms of ideology. We are going to have to change language if people who aren’t Frum are entering the equation.
In between is someone who watches movies, does not talk to girls, listens to not Jewish music and learns at least part time to be in between
But you want someone who does talk to girls, wasn’t that already established in other threads? I’m almost sure you said your dating a boy you give lifts to and is a friend and shows you tattoos?
and yeshivish someone who learns in kollel.
Yeshivish is not defined by the amount of hours a person learns. There are many people “in learning” but not Yeshivish, and many more people who are not in Kollel but are Yeshivish. It refers to the mindset of a Ben Torah. There are, unfortunately, too many Bnei Torah who for reasons of Parnassah are not in Kollel. Yeshivish would probably be better defined by how many hours a man wants to learn rather than how many hours he actually does.
“Age is an issue of Mind over Matter. If you don’t mind, it doesn’t matter.” — Mark Twain?
I really wish that there was a way to type up posts and then save them w/o submitting so we can don’t have to submit them as soon as they are typed. That way we would have more time to think about them.
You can. Just type it, and save it in your default word processor until you are ready to post it, together with a link to the thread. When you’re ready, just copy and paste back into your browser.
Does anyone know how much time we have to edit once the post is moderated?
I think Joseph posted somewhere that you have five minutes.
Uncle Moishy’s “Torah Torah Torah Torah Torah Tzivo Lonu Moishe” comes from Mozarts 25th symphony.
Yeedle sings two songs on one album with the same high part:
Track 1, Shiru Lamelech
Track 6, Kulanu EchadSing one while listening to the other, you’ll get a bit of a shock!
Interestingly enough, there are two songs which sound very different when sung, but are almost identical.
The chorus of MBD’s Ko Ribon [Moshiach] (Sounds like its composed by Yossi Green, but I never looked it up) is exceedingly similar to the first part of Dedi’s “Ima” [Rotzo] (“There is a time I can remember…”) – just sung much slower. Anybody agree?
Yosselle Rosenblatts “Umipnei Chata’einu” begins the same as the traditional “Chayav Inish Levesumei”
The traditional tune for “Bnei Beischa kevatechila” in Chazaratz HaShatz is the same as the traditional “Keli Tzion…”. I’ve heard this observation attributed to R’ Chaim Brisk.
“Only because I reread before I press send, where I would have just posted and edited if I felt I needed to change something.”
Not sure what you were adding with this post? Isn’t this the same thing you said in the previous post. And as far as I can tell, this doesn’t answer the issue I raised in my post.
It was a direct answer to:
btw, in terms of the immediate editing, I could be wrong about this, but do the posts come out clearer now and t/f easier to edit before the submit button is pressed? I feel like before they didn’t come out as clear and were harder to edit before the submit button is pressed.Only because I reread before I press send, where I would have just posted and edited if I felt I needed to change something.
Its may not be a conscious thought. But I can’t tell you how often I used to post something, then regret it as soon as I pressed “Send”, and just edited it to a blank post. Now, I find myself thinking twice before sending.
Yup
Ladies certainly do get malkus.
אמר רב יהודה אמר רב וכן תנא דבי רבי ישמעאל איש או אשה כי יעשו מכל חטאת האדם השוה הכתוב אשה לאיש לכל עונשין שבתורה (קידושין ל”ה)
Malkus is given with a form of whip; see :מכות כ”ב
Wow, thank you!
תזכו למצוות
I never really understood the whole name thing.
It is quite clear that ideally you should mention the name and mothers name, or at least some form of definitive information, he davening for someone. What is the neccesity for this? If I just have someone in mind, why is the tefillah any less powerful?
ZD – I suppose that’s true. But most rational thinkers know this not to be the case; the goal of a Shabbaton is not really to ignite the “Pintele Yid”, they are just trying to promote interest through the experience. Every one knows that it isn’t the golden-chicken-soup with fluffy-kneidlach and three-part-harmony which is bringing people back. The aim is to give them a pleasant experience to show that ‘Hey, we’re also normal, just like you’, and to demonstrate Yiddishkeit in a relaxed non-fanatical fashion. This helps discard preconceived misconceptions, and a lot of the fear of Frum people/being Frum disappears.
ZD: Correct. Nobody wants to take the responsibility of allowing 17 year olds to face questions they can’t answer, and end up sewing seeds of doubt in their own minds. The reason he “allowed” me to continue was because he saw I was comfortable in answering and discussing, and I apparently held my own enough to allay his fears.
But it wasn’t only with teenagers doing Kiruv; many organizations pride themselves on being mekarev through learning Gemara beIyun, not through Hashkafah. I am wondering if it’s actually more effective when you aren’t a trained professional.
@LU: I think you may be right with that theory. Everyone is saying that the teenagers of today – specifically in the secular world – have a shorter concentration span, lesser intellect, and certainly less motivation or drive to be thinking for themselves. You would probably do a lot better Kiruv with a PowerPoint presentation or movie than through live conversation!
Hey – half the Hebrew on the OP has started working again. Why is that?
#1244315: They go out to restaurants, movies and anything they want. It depends on the boys level of yidishkeit also what they do.
#1244312: They are amazing boys. They are not “modern”.
??
MOD-29 – You are right. Like I said, my statements were based on observational evidence of friends who was there, who I know had smartphones while they were in Yeshiva, but I had no right to assume that the Yeshiva sanction such activity, nor to generalize that the entire Yeshiva is like that.
I hereby retract any comment I previously made about Ner Yisroel Baltimore.
Seems like Joseph and I have a different perception of Ner Yisroel. Joseph thinks they wouldn’t be allowed with smartphones, and I was of the understanding that filtering wouldn’t be expected of them.
I reiterate that my advice should be taken with triple the usual CR Salt; my understanding comes from the feeling I pick up from the few friends I have who have learnt in the above Yeshivas.
There was a group who brought boys from non-religous families for a Shabbaton to the last Yeshiva I was in, and they asked a couple of bochurim to learn with them during the seder. I agreed to try it out. In the little talk they gave us beforehand, they asked us NOT to debate philosophy with them, NOT to spend time on Hashkafah, but to concentrate on the sugya of our choice.
The first twenty minutes was an absolute waste of time. Much as I tried to make it stimulating and interactive (we did the sugya of Chayecha Kodmin; I spoke about Euthanasia, Life Support Machines, Abortion…) he wasn’t interested; he spent more time looking around the Beis Hamedrash than listening to what I had to say. After approx. twenty minutes, he interrupted and asked me if I was married. When I said no in a surprised voice – I was still seventeen, I realized it was time to close the Gemara.
He told me he “always wanted to have one of those heart to heart talks with someone, but never knows how to start”. Eventually, he opened up, and we had a riveting discussion about Life, the Universe, and Everything. It was highly stimulating, intellectual, and eventually, personal. The organizer of the event came around to see if everything was okay, and was standing behind us listening to the conversation. He told me afterwards that he didn’t mind that I was debating with the boy – he normally doesn’t allow it because he isn’t sure the Yeshiva bochurim are up to successfully navigating the conversation on safe waters, but after listening to our conversation he gave me “permission” to continue our discussion.
What I want to know is this: The professional Kiruv experts all say that the best way to be mekarev is through learning Lomdus with them, not through talking about their issues. In all the times I helped in this program, I found the opposite to be true. I understand that the professional trained Mekarvim may have more success in that area, but as far as amateurs are concerned, I found the opposite.
Has anybody ever found more success in learning a gemara with an absolute beginner (who couldn’t finish of the Pasuk “Shema Yisroel H’ Elokeinu H’ _______”!) than starting with Hashkafah?
I think I should do kiruv on my boyfriend before I do it on some random girl.
Well, go on then, LU… Your turn.
Reb Shidduch – I may be wrong, but my impression of Ner Yisroel is probably more “chilled” than what he has in mind (judging from the smartphone which is “tagged of course” – in Ner Yisroel I don’t know if it would be tagged, and it certainly wouldn’t be “of course”).
Gr8Bochur – When you say “open minded”, do you have anything against “yeshivish”, or do you just mean you want a more relaxed warm environment that the standard yeshivas?
It would help if you explained what you call “chilled”, what you consider a “decent amount”, and certainly what you consider “open minded”.
I’m from way over the pond in Britain, so I don’t consider myself an expert on American Yeshivos, but there is a place called Eddisons which you might like. They are a mainstream Yeshiva, high learning standard (bochurim come from there to Brisk), but they have a gym downstairs, and from what I understand, they are quite “chilled”.
Hatzlacha Rabba in finding the place that you can integrate into with ease, and only have aliyah in your learning and yiras shamayim!
Joseph – Obviously. You are not hitting her for her breach; you may hit her to ensure she removes the offending garment. (Or, I suppose, she covers up the offending garment)
There may be some tznius problems with a man hitting a girl, so then she would have to hit him back for his breach of tznius and then it could go on forever until they are both dead.
Hitting back is not allowed, I’m afraid. The whole “מכין אותו” allowance is only to enforce the commandment before it’s breached. After the breach, she would be עובר on לא יוסיף by hitting him.
Not sure if this is a bug on my computer or if its a bug on the CR.
For some time, I haven’t been able to enter any profile pages.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/users/yekke2
Doesn’t work.
Lilmod – Is Josephs’ sister Tzippy or Ruchy? I think there’s a mix up somewhere…
Joe – You would shout, but you wouldn’t hit to stop somebody talking Loshon Horo/wearing something immodest?
The Gemara Kesuvos 86a writes that you can use lethal force (According to the Meshovav Si. 3, Chasam Sofer OC #177, Ramba”m on Mishna 48b. Igros Moshe disagrees partially) to enforce the performance of a mitzvah. The Gemara proceeds to differentiate between positive commandments and negative commandments, although what the distinction actually is is not clear.
R’ Akiva Eiger asks that the law is that you can use physical force to enforce negative commandments too. The Ketzos HaChoshen (Meshovev #3) differentiates between positive and negative commandments in regards to to the allowance for lethal force, and only non-lethal force is allowed for negative commandments.
So – Joseph – would you use force?
3. The number of voices/replies to threads are not always correct, sometimes way out of proportion.
Mazal tov!
We should only share simchos together.
Sad face because all these links are now obsolete, due to the CR forgetting how to read Hebrew. And Even sadder face that 3 and 9 aren’t on Hebrewbooks. Neither is really an issue, because I can navigate Hebrewbooks myself, and because any shul I find myself in for Shacharis, Mincha, or Maariv is bound to have the full set of Igros Moshe.
She took a deep shuddering breath, fingering the curtain with a trembling hand. Her heart was beating like the new Eighth Day, only increasing in speed. Would anybody notice her distress?
All around, people were smiling. The lively strains of “Ve-Sein-Bonu”, complete with the slightly off-key harmony from the Kalmanowitz Twins, filled the room. Way down, in the men’s section, energetic bochurim were dancing around the shuffling men, waving Sifrei Torah like Lulavim. Children were frantically making rounds of the room, skipping the back corner to reach Mr Epstien, who always gave the best nosh. Proud fathers held their kids flags and their kids hands. The rav was holding a sefer in the corner, his saintly brow furrowed in concentration. Zeidy Morgenstern was sitting in his wheelchair, clapping enthusiastically out of beat and giving two sweets to the entrepreneurs savvy enough to say thank you. Bobby Smiles, the South American Baal Teshuva, was swinging his angelic son around on his shoulders, and he could actually touch the women’s gallery. Itche Meir was holding his trademark whiskey tumbler, swirling the golden liquid in a way you were only supposed to do to red wine.
To the naked eye, to the average onlooker, it was a regular Simchas Torah in Kehillas Ohel Moshe. But in the ladies gallery, one girl was staring down transfixed, unable to tear her terrified gaze from the tall man who had just entered the Shul. She didn’t hear Aunty Mirel kvell “That’s my Motti! Everyone look!” She didn’t hear Libby strut in on her twelve inch heels, announcing her latest conquest in KosherMart. She didn’t even notice as Rochelle whispered into her ear about Perelle, who was going out again with the illuy from Stamford.
Her eyes were drawn to the one man. Was it him? Could it be him? She hoped it wasn’t. It couldn’t be.
As though controlled by some sixth sense, the man stiffened, craning his neck to look at the ladies gallery.
There was a scream, and Ruchy fell to the floor in a dead faint.
Joseph had arrived.
In the past, I have thought to compare this with לא אפשר ולא קא מכוון, as we see by other איסורי הנאה. I do not know the ins and outs of Avoida Zora, so I can’t be sure I am right with this, but the way the אחרונים explain the היתר of לא אפשר ולא קא מכוון, I don’t know if you can apply it to Histaklus; it would only be by איסורי הנאה. See חי’ ר’ שמעון שקאפ נדרים סי’ ט”ו וט”ז. (Yes, I know not to pasken halachah from a Chiddushei R’ Shimon!)
A friend of mine recently showed me that the חפץ חיים does apply לא אפשר ולא קא מכוון to the case in בבא בתרא; (http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=14233), although he explains that Arayos is worse.
Perhaps that’s why there is a היתר אונס here; it’s anyways technically מותר because of פסיק רישא; it’s only the חומרא דעריות. Dunno.
אבל לא מסתבר כל כך דכיון שהקרא אסר להרהר מצד ספק זה הרי נמצא שהרהור הוא כבר איסור בעצם וממילא כיון שיודע שא”א לו בלא הרהור איך יהיה מותר לו לעבור על איסור שבתורה בשביל פרנסתו וצורכו בלא פיקוח נפש, אך אולי כיון שבקרא נאמר הטעם דשמירה משום שיבוא מזה לדבר רע הוא כנאמר שאינו איסור ברור ולכן צ”ע לדינא במי שלא בטוח שלא יבא להרהר.
— אגרות משה, אה”ע ח”א סי’ נ”ו
He does seem to say that the היתר is only in a case where it will not involve איסורים ודאים. I am not sure why he asks only about הרהור but doesn’t ask about the איסור הסתקלות (which is אסור even without הרהור, at least to an ערוה)
Lilmod: I don’t understand the Gemara. Let me try explain why.
The Gemara praises a person who averts his eyes from gazing at women while they are washing. The Gemara proceeds to ask on this statement: If he has an alternative route to take and doesn’t, then he is a Rasha [Putting yourself into a matzav of nisayon makes you a Rasha even if you correctly assess your ability NOT to be nichshal, and even though you are עומד על נסיון]. If there was no alternative route to take, then אנוס הוא.
If the Gemara would be talking about the issue of exposing onesself to nisayon, then I would understand. There is no concrete issur to enter a nisayon, and in a case of LD”A (Leka Darka Achrina) that would be premitted. But the gemara doesn’t say that.
Rashba”m explains – אנוס הוא. אס מסתכל דרך הליכתו ואונס רחמנא פטריה ולמה מזקיקו הכתוב להעצים עיניו
דמדמשתבח ביה קרא שמעינן דצריך לעצום עיניו. He is an Oines, even if he gazes en route, and therefore why is he obligated to avert his eyes, and we know he must because the Torah praises him for doing so.What sort of אונס are we talking about here? Why does the fact that he was “Oines” in entering the situation allow him to go ahead and look – enough that the gemara doesn’t even understand why he should be praised for averting his gaze?
And the entire way through the sugya, it is clear that there is no real chiyuv to avert his gaze; even in the maskanah we praise him for “forcing himself to look away”.
Histaklus is a real Issur. צריך אדם להוציא כל ממונו rather than to be oiver an issur. One is only allowed to transgress a Torah prohibition at life threatening risk (or perhaps prolonged torture). (To make things worse, the issur of Histaklus R’ Moshe is mesupak whether it constitutes Abizrayhu De’Arayos as is the pashtus hagemara in other places, in which case the law is יהרג ואל ועבור, getting rid of any heter oines.) Why is one who gazes and isn’t עוצם עיניו not a Rasha? I can hear why he is allowed to enter the situation, but why are we allowing him to be נכשל??
</Sad face>
@Popa: “Who says you have a right to be frum on yenem’s cheshbon? Suppose you don’t have tefillin and only your neighbor’s wife is home? You have to knock on the door, ask for the tefillin, and put them on. And deal with your nisyonos. You can’t not do mitzvos because you have nisyonos.”
Without careful application of the עשה דוחה לא תעשה dictum, you are not allowed to be oiver issurim in order to be mekayem mitzvos. (Regardless of חלל שבת אחת כדי שיקיים שבתות הרבה.) The ends certainly do not justify the means. In your specific case – putting yourself in a situation of nisayon – the Gemara (BB 57b) classifies אי דאיכא דרכא אחרינא רשע הוא, אי דליכא דרכא אחרינא אנוס הוא. This would (probably) be ליכא דרכא אחרינא. (I don’t understand that Gemara at all, so I’m not sure I can apply it to cases other than the Issur Histaklus. I have not seen the Gemara bought down anywhere in Shu”a or Ramba”m. I would appreciate it if somebody could point to a source which brings down a halachic distinction of Leka Darka Achrina)
But in any other case, to be oiver an issur is absolutely NOT permitted in order to be mekayem a mitzvah. And if you are aware that it isn’t a nissayon but is an issur, then you would not be permitted to do the mitzvah.
So to answer Joseph directly, I disagree with two attitudes expressed in the OP:
(1) The main issue is not a lack of awareness. People know and understand the issues. But it’s difficult. More difficult, apparently, than you or I or any male can appreciate. There’s a Yetzer Hara. People need a wake-up call to encourage them to take any upwards leap. Provide the correct inspiration, and you’ll see a positive response.
(2) “Forcing the decorum” is a battle not worth fighting. It would be much more effective and practical (and probably ethical, but that’s exactly the discussion you wanted to inspire) to enthuse them about tznius without having to fight against them.
If the issue is awareness – just giving a list of facts is pointless. Just giving a shiur chizuk is also pointless. You’ll notice that chizzuk by nature dissipates. They used to say in Yeshiva “A good mussar shmuz lasts until supper”. The trick is to get induce a euphoric-chizuk mood, and attempt to force a kabbalah whilst they are still on a high. (Think הרואה סוטה בקלקולה יזיר עצמו מן היין. Specifically after seeing a Nes Nigleh in the Beis Hamikdash, which is the most inspirational sight possible, you should make a kabbalah.) Then even when the inspiration dissolves, the kabbalah will hopefully last somewhat.
I once heard from an International speaker that the only way to give a good Internet Asifa (he has spoken in many) is “15 Minutes ‘Kol Nidrei’, 15 Minutes of Information, followed by 20 Minutes of ‘Neila'”.
LF: I wrote you a long response, but I lost it before I managed to post it, and I don’t have time to rewrite it now.
One point, though. There is two registered tzdadim in the achronim – is the mitzva to drink, or is the mitzvah to get drunk?
I was working with the rationale that the mitzvah is to be drunk, and the drinking is only the method, not the goal. In that, I tried to explain the Rema in two ways – (a) you can attain that goal however you want, but you must also drink because Purim is a Yom Mishte. The two chiyuvim are nonrelated. (b) You must achieve “ad delo yoda” by virtue of wine.
You understand the mitzvah is the drinking, and being drunk is the shiur (See Emek Brocho/R’ Yisroel Salanter, that it isn’t even a shiur, it is a p’tur. You must drink and drink and drink… you can stop when you are that drunk). Accordingly, the Rema is very simple – you must drink wine until you reach the stage of Ad Delo Yoda, which can be until you are no longer thinking straight or until you fall asleep.
I’m really going to try not to get involved in this thread. Its certainly not my place.
I do want to point out one thing:
Lilmod, I have had issues like this in the past. At first I regretted. Later, as a single I stopped regretting it and was like if other girls have husbands why cant I have a boyfriend which is a potential husband?
LU – I think you’ve pointed out enough times on enough threads how terrible this guy is and what a bad idea it is for RebShidduch to continue falling in with/for him. Perhaps it’s time to explain whats wrong with the above post, and why maybe she just has the wrong idea of what marriage is? Because a husband isn’t a boyfriend.
Todays generation [and I mean the parents, not just the kids] has been bought up with an attitude of complacency, self-righteousness and enough ga’vah to ensure that mussar is totally ineffective. Where in the previous generations a rav could impose rules and regulations to ensure the Kedusha of his Kehilla wasn’t compromised, nowadays that would result in a mass Exodus from the Shul in question into a “breakaway minyan”, or worse – with the Kehilla totally ignoring and degrading the Rav. In todays day of multi-options, technology induced laziness and selfishness, nobody is going to change their way of life – or in this specific question, their mode of dress – just because you try force them to.
The age of the stick is over, for most practical purposes. Its time to introduce the carrot.
These same people who would oppose any takanos enforced by a Rav are people who are [somewhat] Y’rei Shamayim and Bnei Aliyah. They are people who do strive to do better in Avoidas Hashem. It’s not that they are bad people, they just react wrongly to external pressure. The trick is to motivate them.
Motivation doesn’t have to be in the form of prizes. That type of carrot would be almost useless to adults, and in the most case harmful to children who will be performing for the prizes instead of understanding whats right [TBD – difference between a reward and an incentive]. Motivation can be in a spiritual sense, or equally effectively, on an emotional level. You’ll notice that most of todays succesful “World Renowned Speakers” are not working with Mussar, they are working with Chizzuk.
The most catchy phenomena today is the group-segula-shtick. People are somehow much happier to undertake kabbalas in Avoidas Hashem for Bein Odom Lechaveiro than for Bein Odom Lamakom. It works. I’ve seen countless people improve in Shmiras Halashon, in Limmud Torah, in Tefilla etc. as a zchus for someone they know. Make a group text to forward to at least ten people, and everyone is in.
I know of a shul where talking during tefillah/krias haTorah was an issue for a while. The Rav tried dozens of times to put a stop to it, but to no avail. One week, a regular mispallel got up and emotionally asked of everyone to stop talking. He was childless for twenty years, and he asked that as a zechus for him, people should not talk in the Beis HaMedrash. From then, the shul was silent – and a year later, he had a beautiful baby girl.
No amount of letters or takanos can silence people who want to talk. You’ve got to aim at their hearts, and change what they want.