Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Avira: It’s pretty simple, really. Your definition of “reshoim”, as quoted in the verses you cherry picked (we do share the same Bible with the same stories, you know), doesn’t apply to most modern criminals. Your average inmate isn’t having a cold, calculated war against God. They mostly do have mental health issues, and have acted out in the past because those issues went unaddressed. They aren’t “reshoim” in the classical sense. They just need help.
As an aside – do you generally not think we are supposed to learn from Avraham Avinu in how he handled the issue of Sedom?
Avira: “why is punishing reshoim barbaric? They’re a menace to society. They’re people who have forfeited their right to live among decent people, showing no regard for human life. Let them rot”
Funny… I don’t see Avraham Avinu having that reaction about the people of Sedom when Hashem said He would destroy them.
“European shtetls is the way of galus mandated from Hashem.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Omg Avira, I pretty much only log onto to this site to enjoy the insanity of some of the comments, and you do NOT disappoint when it comes to that! So thank you!
To the OP, and everyone else, I’m just reiterating Syag’s point: Please ignore ujm and Avira if you want to have a genuine, productive conversation about how to respect people’s differences.
Here’s one example off the top of my head: I don’t personally support the idea of pushing the majority of our young men into learning in kollel full time. I think it’s not how the frum world is supposed to exist. Yet, I can respect those who are pursuing this path sincerely. How? By being mature enough to understand that there isn’t only one way to accomplish the ratzon Hashem.
Another example: I don’t have the patience to sit through davening in shul when there’s tons of singing. It’s not my way of connecting with Hashem. But I can understand that other people do feel inspired by it, and so I can respect it for what it accomplishes.
I love how joe used quotes around the word “Frum” in the title. That was hilarious. The actual argument being made to support their ridiculous stance, however, is just sad. But what can you expect from a grown child, still living in their mother’s basement, who has an unnatural fear of women? I pity him.
You know why I “forgot” to include Rabbeinu Tam’s radical interpretation of that gemara? Because I was stating the pashut pshat, backed by the majority of commentaries on the topic: namely, that Rebbi freely admitted that the secular philosophers were correct in regard the issue of the movement of the sun. It’s not apikorsus to say that the holy Tanaaim, Amoraim, Rishonim, or Acharonim were people. People can, and do, make mistakes. That doesn’t disqualify everything else they’ve ever said. It actually makes them more relatable, more human, and more inspirational. Putting them all on this untouchable pedestal strips them of their humanity. Tanach is full of stories of our greatest leaders making mistakes, for a reason.
It’s actually funny you talk about a “slippery slope”, because that is exactly how I’d describe your attitude about the “Godly” status of of Rabbanim across the centuries (even including such recent ones as Rav Hirsch) and their inability to make mistakes. That, my friend, is indeed a slippery slope toward avoda zarah, not to mention a severe slight against our own abilities as well as a logical fallacy.
Clearly, you have no intention of changing your views and would like to continue preaching that we can destroy the world as much as we want without consequence. I will stop wasting my time talking with you, and will spend more time trying to clean up our planet after edited like yourself.
Have an eco-friendly shabbos.
n0mesorah, of course I’m not saying anything revolutionary. Which is why I find it disturbing that there are people who are so agitated by my views on this. I am not particularly perturbed at people who don’t recycle. What I was most upset about was the carelessness demonstrated by a poster who suggested we can do whatever we want to our planet without global consequence. This poster has claimed to be someone in a teaching position, which further frightens me, to think that these dangerous views are being given over to others. I actually do contribute monetarily to organizations that aid in reforestation and fight mass producers of pollution.
Avira, I could have predicted you’d bring up Rabbeinu Tam’s explanation of that gemara. Yet you conveniently chose not to talk about the many, many commentaries who learn that gemara at face value. Rambam, the gaonim, abarbanel, maharam, ben ish chai,to name just a few. Bottom line, I have plenty of sources on which to rely to make the claim that chazal can be wrong about scientific matters. Thus, I’m sticking to my guns, and while I couldn’t care less if you call me an apikores, it does make me uncomfortable that you seem to be willing to call these great Jewish scholars apikorsim as a consequence.
Bottom line: I have valid sources to support my statements, and thus, on the issue of whether or not it is ok to trash our planet, I’d recommend erring on the side of caution, just in case we *can* mess it up. It doesn’t hurt to be a responsible human being.
I have no problem with you labeling me an apikores. I couldn’t care less. People burned Rambam’s sefarim because of the same knee-jerk reaction, seeing his radical (at the time) ideas as way too far beyond the pale. I will steadfastly hold my ground and believe firmly that it’s only a matter of time until the rest of the mainstream frum world walks through the door that I, and a few brave others, have “burst open”, according to your logic.
By the way, it’s not me who originally said that it’s possible for chazal to err in matters of science. Rabi Yehuda Hanasi himself, in the gemara, states that the secular philosophers were right about the movement of the sun, and the Jewish scholars were wrong. I suggest you go rethink your views on that matter.
Avira – I’m not denying that our spiritual deeds have an effect on the natural world. I’m arguing that our physical actions ALSO clearly have an effect on the natural world. This isn’t about hashkafah or spiritual matters, it’s about reality and the physical world.
Rav Hirsch was clearly wrong about species going extinct. AAQ provided some examples, and there are many more. The passenger pigeon comes to mind as a great example. Not just animals, but plant species as well. But guess what – it’s okay that Rav Hirsch was wrong about this. Great scholars can be wrong all the time about scientific matters, but it doesn’t make their Torah in general any less important or truthful.
The gemara and rishonim are full of opinions about scientific matters that turned out to be incorrect, such as that the sun orbits around the earth. They were wrong about that, obviously, but it doesn’t disqualify the legitimacy of the entire Talmud. Previous generations who didn’t have the same information that we have about the causes and effects within our physical world would obviously see our ability to cause drastic change as minimal at best, and often an impossibility. But that doesn’t mean they’re right, it means they didn’t have the same knowledge. This isn’t just relegated to the viewpoint of classic Jewish theology. It was the worldview at large. That worldview has changed with new information, and so should ours.
Avira – I did you a favor and found a source:
Behold my works, how pleasant and how beautiful they are. And I created it all for you! Be aware and don’t ruin or destroy my world, for if you ruin it, there is no one to come and fix it up after you.
ראה מעשי כמה נאים ומשובחין הן וכל מה שבראתי בשבילך בראתי תן דעתך שלא תקלקל ותחריב את עולמי שאם קלקלת אין מי שיתקן אחריך
–Midrash: Ecclesiastes Rabbah, 7:20Also look into the topic of shiluach hakan and lo sevashel g’di b’chalev imo- the idea that we aren’t allowed to take or kill a mother animal along with its child, because it gives off the appearance of destroying the entire species.
Yawn. Avira, nice try trying to diffuse my common sense with a personal slight about my emotional capabilities. The reason sefarim don’t mention my point of view is because it’s common sense. I’d love for you to provide a source that states we can pollute, destroy, and alter the natural state of the world without consequence.
Are you aware that there have been mass extinctions directly caused by humans? That alone is proof that your position is fundamentally flawed. Do more soul searching and pull your head out of the garbage that you love so much.
It’s sad to see that according to Avira, “basic Jewish hashkafa” means not caring about being responsible for the health of the world Hashem provided us with, because hey, our actions can’t possibly impact other people, or the world in general. Your “basic Jewish hashkafa” is a disgusting, selfish, elitist attitude that has nothing to do with Judaism at all. edited embrace some common sense. Our actions as humans have consequences, both individually and globally. That is a fact. To deny this is denying how Hashem runs the world.
It’s a real shame someone even needs to bring this to your attention. I hope you don’t influence other people with your horribly selfish attitude.
“Hashem runs the world and nothing we do will affect it physically. We can have as many kids as we are able to, and there will never be a shortage of food or space. We can bathe as much as we want, drive whatever car we want, and fly in as many airplanes as we want, and the world will be just as functional and physically healthy as ever.”
Avira – this is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read on this site (aside from Joseph’s ramblings). Hashem runs the world through teva; i.e. the rules of nature. Our actions directly impact the physical planet that we live on. To deny this is to essentially take the incredible, detailed, fragile, beautiful planet that Hashem provided us with and throw it back in His face. It’s a disgusting attitude, and I hope you don’t spew such garbage to any impressionable people.
Hey moderator: I’m not even mad you deleted my comment, it was worth it if even just for you to read it 😀
Yep. See? I knew that would happen.
Chas v’shalom. A man should never answer amen to a woman’s brachos, because it could lead to mixed dancing.
“Gedolei hador cannot be influenced by the tides of outside, alien philosophy.”
1) That’s a load of garbage. Many great Torah scholars and leaders throughout history were influenced by and sided with secular philosophers on many issues.
2) You imply that any philosophy coming from “outside” of Jewish origin is automatically wrong, which is garbage.
3) By making such a ridiculous statement, you automatically disparage all great Torah scholars who are also well versed in philosophical areas.
4) You aren’t a gadol hador, and therefore it isn’t up to you to decide what is a prerequisite of achieving that title.Someone asked a question. I answered the question. Joseph says something that doesn’t relate the question at all, but instead is just straight up lashon harah. My post is deleted, and his floats right through.
As I said… predictably stupid, and your double standards are appalling. You make orthodox Judaism look bad, in a public forum, visible to the world. Congratulations.
I am usually not surprised. I expect your predictably stupid decisions about what is considered “appropriate”. This particular instance was just a little surprising, enough to make me call you out on it.
LOL. You guys really deleted my post? Laughable. Sad. Pathetic. Losers. YWN moderators.
OP: What steps SHOULD they take, or what steps WILL they take? Those are very different questions.
They SHOULD take many steps, some of which I’ve outlined in several posts that the holy moderators deleted, probably because they fall into camp B: namely, what WILL the charedi world do… which is, of course, absolutely nothing, other than try to keep it all quiet and hope it all blows over quickly.
Syag, I honestly have no clue what you are trying to say.
I said it in the way I did specifically to show how that cannot possibly be the halacha. The mere suggestion of such a notion in the first place doesn’t deserve a respectful response.
And yes, I am very familiar with gemara and how often theoretical questions arise that would never occur in reality, but are rather expressed to support a point. Now go and cry about the fact that I know gemara.
So according to halacha, if there is a threat to all humans on earth, and only, say, 10 people can be saved, they should all be men, and thus, the human species would be extinct after those 10 men die.
Right.
AAQ, you are 100% agreeing with me. You are just saying that people who you have seen prior to Covid choose to be good are more prone to continue doing good, and vice versa. But no one is INTRINSICALLY better than anyone else to start with.
Syag, why are you assuming that I think everyone must either be one or the other? I am simply pointing out that both parties exist. And no, I was most definitely NOT a hero during Covid, though I know many people who were, and continue to be so.
My biggest takeaway from Covid is seeing how humans, regardless of race, religion, or demographic, can be truly heroic in their dedication to helping others. And on the flip side, how humans, regardless of race, religion, or demographic, can be egotistical, selfish, brainwashed idiots who care only about their own opinions and don’t give a darn if other people die because of their actions.
Basically, this time period shows how we are all, in fact, just humans, and no one is intrinsically better than anyone else. You just need to be willing to put in the effort.
Sequim, WA
Of course. It’s just a small cost compared to their daughter’s $35k seminary tuition.
Avira… I say to you what I’d say to Julia Haart: No one is invalidating your own experiences. However, don’t paint the whole canvas with the same brush. You’d have to be a fool to think your experiences defines the entire realm of a group of people who, lets be honest, do NOT fit neatly into one category anyway, just as you don’t yourself.
DY, that was actually quite clever, and I enjoyed it 🙂
I think lace shaitels are actually so realistic and usually so much more attractive than a woman’s own natural hair, that you’ll have lines of teenage girls lining up to get their hands on them. They won’t even want husbands anymore, they’ll just want those gorgeous wigs.1. I don’t know why my post was deleted. Seriously, you moderators need to reevaluate what you consider “out of bounds”.
2. ujm, first of all: That is an idiotic statement, but not one I’m surprised you’d make. Secondly, it’s quite obvious from your opinions that you would do the same in reference to pushing a button to get rid of “goyim”, so you are no better than them.