yankel berel

@CS

@Arso

re the term nasi .
The problem is not so much the term nasi [although I do see a problem as it is more elevated than the term rebbe or admor which is used in other circles]

Rather the problem is the word which is mentioned after the term nassi :

NASSI HADOR

the whole generation ….

Cannot remember the whole generation getting together and appointing the leader of the habad hasidim as Leader of the Whole Generation ….

What really happened – was the following : Habad hasidim [a small minority when using a worldwide Orthodoxy perspective] , crowned their leader as nasi over the overwhelming majority of Orthodox [non habad] Jews who did not even have any voting rights …..

You can give it any name you fancy . I would call this “Cultural Imperialism”.

But in the greater scheme of things , this is understandable [and even logical] .

Think about it .
If your end goal is to get all Jews to accept your leader’s messianic position , you have to first prepare their psyche .

First let them get used to calling him Nassi hador . Nassi of EVERYONE.
The next step – the messiah of EVERYONE , is not such a big unsurmountable step anymore …..

Food for thought …..

@CT
1] Ramban is in sefer havikuach – part of kisvei haramban
2] you did not answer whether all yidden who do not listen to ‘nevua’ of the leader of habad are hayav mitah byedi shamayim or not [and why]
3] According to your explanation of nevua i. e. every rebbe of habad who gave etsot in gashmiyut is a navi . we should extend that to every rabbi in yahadut who gives etsot in gashmiyut . why only to habad rebbeim ?
so, following your reasoning nevua NEVER stopped in in Jewish History . Every rabbi gave etsot in gashmiyut . this NEVER stopped .
Ela Mai – they gave etsot because it says in AVOT Ch 6 . Kol Halomed Torah LiShma … Nehenin Mimenu Etsa VeToshiya…
Ditto for the Rebeim of Habad .

@Arso
It is mentioned in Tanya . Quite a Mitnagdishe Shtikel I must say …

To the Group

CS promised to be honest
Meanwhile all I see is more of circle painting around the arrows and then claiming to have hit the target.

“To the group”? Are you qwerty613?

@CS
Ramban himself took notes of his argument and published it FOR THE YIDDEN .
He himself.
That was the true reason why the notsrims candidate was PROVEN WRONG .
.
This WAS THE CLEAR OFFICIAL HABAD [!] POSITION pre 94.
You are too young to remember this .
But I do .
It was one of the 13 ikarei emuna .
He COULD NOT DIE .
There is a nevua that he is mashiach .
Mashiach HAS to be alive [!!!!] , [like the Ramban ]
So He CANNOT DIE.
You would have to blind and deaf at the time not to notice .
This was the position of ALL habad rabanim and mashpi’im .
.
It is almost laughable that we are debating this issue where habad claims he can die – no problem .
Its so detached from reality that it seems like a dream .
Mashiach’s times [hayinu ke cholmim] ….
to end off with a bit of irony …..

@Arso
Thanks for liking of the post about RAMBAN .

Re ‘two bitter’ people you are referring to .
I am not bitter at all . I like the Habadi’s. They have tremendous qualities .
I also happen to like clarity , however , and I hate obfuscation .
So bitterness is not called for here , but clarity and honesty are .
Common thread in habadi’s response is ,as you mentioned: obfuscation / change of topic.

The other point you mentioned that there are 2 people [you and me] who stand against a multitude of brainwashed Habad hasidim

– I wouldn’t characterize it that way . At all.
rather it is the huge multitudes and the overwhelming majority of Yidden ,all around the world, from any type of background ,who all agree and look upon this strange and totally new theology with a huge dose of healthy skepticism , reality and sehel hayashar, and therefore reject it out of hand ,They stand against modern Habad theology whereas , in comparison, a very few [when compared to the rest of klal israel ] Habadi’s who refuse to think for themselves and keep mindlessly regurgitating the false platitudes they have been continuously fed .

@CS
What the notzrim believe or not doesn’t make something treif. It’s whether it’s Torah or not. The notzrim are wrong first and foremost because yoshke was a rasha and was never fit to be Moshiach to begin with.

Now I don’t think there’s any Torah sources for someone who started the job, and didn’t finish/ was killed or otherwise thwarted, to continue to consider them Moshiach.
The debate is if someone started and, at least to our eyes, passed away, but their work and personal influence continue, what then? There’s room to say …. that he could then have techias hameisim with the first round of Tzaddikim (40 years earlier than
the rest) and finish the job.

[Previous post by CS]
————————————————————-
RAMBAN clearly states that the Notsrims Mashiach can’t be mashiach.
And he also states the reason .
NOT because he was a rasha.
But because he started and [ to our eyes] passed away . EVEN IF HIS WORK AND INFLUENCE CONTINUED …..
That was according to RAMBAN sufficient reason to say –
HE CANNOT BE MASHIACH
.
This Ramban was not a chidush .
It was pashut.
Not challenged by anyone.
Not in his days .
Not in any of the multiple subsequent generations .
Not even in 1992 and 1993

ONLY from a very specific date in 1994 and onwards, was it discarded by some Jews [for some secret specific tsorech , I am not telling you what ,but you are allowed to guess it yourself]
.
Something against RAMBAN is treif .

Yes ,treif .

@CS
I am old enough to remember this myself .
Lo teheh Shmi’a gdolah MeRe’iya.
The Rebbe of habad came out unequivocally and 1] promised that no one will be hurt in EY during the First Gulf War .
This was distributed by the hasidim in the name of their rebbe with a “Shturem” .
Then 2] this was used to establish the navi [emet – sheker?] credentials .
he promised in advance and in fact really nothing happened ,no one died , no one was injured , thus he was crowned as navi .
So we BH have – Hagai zharya malahi and RMMS.
Both [the promise plus the navi credentials] were made by OFFICIAL habad publications .
The kfar habad weekly magazine , dvar malhut .
I remember those heady days . Nearly every week there was more news. The Rebbe of the habad hasiddim got them into a real frenzy with new utterances all the time about the geoula [ not the impending one – rather the one they were supposed to open their eyes to] which was already happening right under their noses.
This was not the last generation of the galut . This was [supposedly] the first generation of the geoula !
[some thirty odd years ago …]
Suppose we can look it all up in the archives of kfar habad magazine of 1990 – 1992 in the period leading up to the stroke in ’92.

@Arso
Re the 2 colossal u turns – they are another topic which deserves mention in their own right
Od hazon Lamo’ed bln

.

@CS
Yes I learned the sources too .
What is missing here an acknowledgement from the Habad side that there were two colossal u – turns in habad theology in the last 40 – 50 years .
Countless pages of discussion and all there is , a total and pointed void .
The habad side avoids any honest discussion of their two major theological u turns .
They will change topics .
They will sing songs .
They will blame other streams of similar u turns [although they never happened]
But they will keep on ignoring their turns .
They do not realize that their ne’emanut in these matters is dipping under the freezing point and that their position is rendered untenable .
Until they will face these matters head on .
In a candid way .
Open and honest .

?

A cursory and openminded read of habad adherents’ comments on this page ,bearing in mind the [r]evolution[s] in in habad theology during the last 50 – 60 years , will inorexably force the reader to accept Morenu Rambam’s saying :

HASECHEL SHAMASH LEHARATSON

Whatever the the ratson wants , the sechel stands ready to do its bidding , like a true servant .
With true elasticity ….

@menachem
You ask for a source for the psak of RMS shlitah re praying for soldiers.

Maybe . Again, maybe . His reason is as follows .
Zionism has proven to be a tremendous magnet to pull people away yahadut and from true chinuch .
If we popularize identification with zionist symbols – even when otherwise warranted- ., we risk reinforcing and strengthening the power of this magnet- with disastrous consequences.
Not that al pi torah we shouldn’t pray for them .
Its the probable , or possible , consequences which are the problem .
Just a suggestion .
Might be wrong .

@hakatan
The Zionist army, its shmad, and all the rest, are all against the Shulchan Aruch. Obviously, for Jews to defend themselves as per Shulchan Aruch is not in question. But the Zionist army is a non-starter.
—
in other words-
The Army is a non starter . The Jews are allowed / should.
Even on Shabbat .
So it seems it is pikuach nefesh . Even according to katan.
So if the ‘jews’ cant do the job . Follows that the Pikuach nefesh is still present .
Remember we had Shabbat . We had pikuach nefesh overriding shabbat .
We had ‘Jews’ trying to [be mechalel shabbat] and take away the p/n , but did not succeed.
So we are left with a problem of p/n , ‘jews’ who cannot solve it . And an army which can take away the p/n .
should we stop the army and keep the p/n ? or use the army and get rid of p/n ?
Katan paskened , keep p/n and stop the army .
Question is – on what basis ?
.
We will need a very well based rationale for this psak .
Because the life , the well being and the property of millions of our brothers and sisters are going to depending on this psak ….

@hakatan
You write to me – please don’t disrespect The RBSH’O ‘s torah .
Where do I ever disrespect the Torah ? CHVSH !

think that misquoting from, and ‘deleting’ , acceptable shitot from ge’onim muvhakim is much closer to disrespecting the torah …..

@hakatan
I do not have avne nezer with me .
It is a good few pages .
I learnt it a few weeks ago .
Will try to look it up again .
But cannot rely blindly on hakatans quotes.
Had some experience already .

It is forbidden to ascend en masse, regardless, as the Satmar Rav shows from multiple raayos, etc.
[hakatan]
—-
Not sure why you keep on omitting the clear psak of Harav Avnei nezer , that LEHALACHA it is mutar to ascend en masse as a bloc .

So it is a machloket .
A machloket between two chashuve rabbanim in halacha .
Why does hakatan feel the need to usurp the whole playing field for himself ?

Satmar rav is the only Rav around ? There are others too …
Why this ani ve’afsi od ?

Hakatan is trying to knock his [and by extension also all our collective heads] through the wall .
What he does with his own head is his own business , but let him please spare all other yidishe heads ….

His fanatical Shibud to his Shitah Kdosha makes him believe that he can pasken she’elot hamurot mamash ,without a even shred of cognizance of a weighty and bitter reality .

This reality is unambiguous , and it is very clear and very immediate.
If the IDF goes on strike now , or it doesn’t have sufficient weapons to do its job . Or it doesn’t do its job for whatever other reason, it is very likely that Oct 7 will chvsh repeat itself in a multiplied fashion, hoyo lo tihyeh , yishmor hashem veyerachem .

If that does not constitute immediate mass pikuach nefesh , then I am a banana , and hakatan is a cucumber.

Those monsters have to be stopped .
Have to .
Because al pi derech hateva , NO ONE ELSE WILL .

Do we need Siyata dishmaya – for sure .
Im Hashem lo yishmor ir , shav shakad shomer ?
Sure , 100 % !!!

This is alef bet. Pashut kebei’a bekutcha.
I wonder why such dvarim pshutim even need to be written.

We have to do whatever we can ,to save yehudim .
No less than if there would be an earthquake ch’vsh .
We would mobilize . We would write our representatives in government.
Exactly the Same here.

I think it says בהר ציון תהיה פליטה……
—————–
Katan to Evalimoshavlo:
It’s a machlokes to when that even refers, including yimei Chizkiyahu, bayis sheini – see Ibn Ezra
——————
Actually ,that’s the pasuk the Hafetz hayim quoted to Rav miPonevezh . Hafets Hayim spoke in 1933 before his petira and cried about all the terrible things which were going to happen to the yidden in Europe. When asked where will be the yeshua , he quoted that pasuk .
Rav miPonovezh , Rav Kahaneman inscribed those words on the outside wal of his yeshiva…
So, at least an authority no less than the Hafets hayim , who could safely be described as the greatest rabban shel yisrael in the last few generations [whose sfarim on sh’a are considered lehalacha in the overwhelming majority of haredi jewish homes],

who connected this pasuk to our present situation.

So ,Evalemoshiv can’t be that wrong ….

@ my voice
‘Just look at how many Jews have been killed in Israel because of their Jewish identity in the past century over the USA, and that should put that argument to rest.’
—————-
Sorry but you are mistaken .
You might be correct in your assessment of the past .
But what is kove’a, is not the past .
Only the future is kove’a .
If you close down the medina , you have millions of innocents who will be in harms way chvsh . Clearly and Immediately .
Not the UN , not NATO , not the Arabs States , not the US .
No one else will be able to protect the yidden there .
Not in the short term and not in the long term .
No point in deluding yourself ….

@613yid

His personal history is irrelevant .
.
Fact is and remains .
Habad pre 94 , including ALL their rabbanaim etc etc .
.
ALL of them proclaimed that mashiach is only from the live [not fom the dead , not from the ‘invisible’ , not from the ‘disappeared’ or whatever other label you want stick on]
Thats how THEY proclaimed their rebbi is mashiach and that this is part of the ikarei emuna .
.
We know one thing for sure – habad is never wrong in their theology ….
So it MUST be like that .
Doesn’t make one iota of a difference what this or that gmara says , what this or that Rishon says – habad is never wrong ….
so the matter is settled forever and ever …..
Mashiach is Only from the live !

@qwerty
just for the record – even those two inventions [1. not dying at all or 2. yes dying but being more alive as a result of dying] were clearly rejected by habad pre 94 .
Not just rejected , but being proclaimed as going against ikarei emuna .
Because mashiach HAD to be from the living AND the present , which axiomatically guaranteed that their rebbi would not die or even ‘disappear’ before leading us all definitively out of the galut.
.
Which was obviously proven wrong by the harshest judge of all – Reality…..
.

@Qwerty
The glaring inconsistencies of modern habad theology are so glaring that it serves as a perfect example of ‘en adam ro’eh et mumei atsmo’.
Besides, the fallacy of the equation of criticism of modern habad theology with sin’at hinam, reminds me of the leftists in Israel employing so called ‘demoktratsia’ as a rallying cry for their troops.
In fact , arguments about our mesorah , serve as an iron guarantor of the veracity of said mesorah . Imagine impostors through the ages , attempting to corrupt it . They would be greeted by howls of protest. Those very howls of protest are the surest indicator that no corruption occurred. And are not at all an indicator of so called ‘sin’at hinam’ [chvsh].
It is perfectly possible to criticize habad theology and still love the habad hasidim .

Half of my posts are not published .
Why ?

@alwaysask
The issue is NOT whether R Moshe’s psakim are universally accepted or not.
The issue is whether he is universally RESPECTED .
Whether he should be mentioned as Moshe Feinstein or rather [as should be] R Moshe Feinstein .
That was the topic under discussion .
My point is that UNIVERSALLY he is quoted with respect , as R Moshe .
As opposed to Moshe.
And that this respect is MANDATORY , not voluntary .
Not depending on readers preference .
Not depending on expediency . .
.
And that ONLY in one specific circle that respect is not there .
For a reason .
Which happens to be the main bone of contention between them and all the rest of klal yisrael.

@any potato
Sorry , but habad lost their ne’emanut in these matters a long time ago .
.
It is crystal clear to any impartial bystander that they have one goal and one goal only . And that they are determined to get there , no matter the cost , no matter the acrobatics .
.
There is a source to totally negate the whole mashiach from the dead idea , MUCH MORE POWERFUL AND CONVINCING that any ramban or r akiva or other relatively ‘small’ people [evidently meant sarcastically].
HABAD itself , based on the greatest human who ever tread on this Earth , all its rabbanim mashpi’im and its chozer have conclusively determined that it is AXIOMATIC in the Jewish Religion that mashiach comes only from the living .
.
Who has any use for any ‘sefer’ printed in lakewood when it has the chutspa to disagree with all of the above ?
Can’t understand how you can even think differently ….

@zaphod
who said that, that ‘ someone else ‘ has to exist now ?
the main thing here is that the mitsva should not become batel .
why should there be a difference [from the mitsva’s viewpoint] between ‘presently existing’ options compared to ‘future existing options’ . In both cases the mitsve is not abandoned . There is a viable realistic option of kiyum hamitsva in both cases .
seems that r elchonon ztsal meant the above , or not ?
besides the point , am not sure about the two tsdadim of the she’ela , isnt it just playing with words ?
am happy to be enlightened here

@always ask
I ‘ll let you in in to a secret . The guy who said Moshe Feinstein [without rav] was a habad hasid .
Don’t tell me rubbish that he meant it similar to Hillel and Shammai.
Would he also say Menachem Mendel , like Hillel or Shammai ?
Or would he say ‘the rebbe’ ?
So why is R Moshe any different ??
.
Sh’A says Lo Yikra Et Rabo BiShmo . And gadol Hador Kmo Rabo Muvhak . You do not call your parent by their first name either .
Alef Bet.