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So clearly this is not a new thing, (maybe by the litvaks is wasn’t done for many generations, so the question is on them not us,
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Not ‘by the litvaks’ it was not done.
Rather ‘by the Jews’ it was not done.
Not in Sefarad lands.
No record of talmidei harif or harambam.
not in Askenaz lands .
Not Rashi, not Tosfot, not the Rosh.
Not in Bavel by the Ge’onim.
Not in Russia ,Poland or Hungary.
Not the Magen Avraham. Not the Bach.
Not the Haftez Haim . Not the Hatam Sofer. not r Haim mibrisk.@CS
please show me your examples of the Rebbe starting on another Gadol BYisrael
[CS]
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What did your rebbi say on purim 1956 [or another one of those years] about the hazon ish ?
The exact words , please ?
and what was the insinuation, please ?
Thanks in advance for your honesty .@ujm
I wrote this post TO cs.
Not the other way around.@CS
This would seem to be the natural Torah position (in addition to what’s already posted regarding the Rambam being a Halacha lmaase sefer).
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You keep on repeating the Rambam fallacy again and again.
Cannot understand how you see any proof in the Rambam’s words re the advisability for ‘looking for the most suitable candidate in each generation’.This is against our Mesorah and the Rambam’s words prove absolutely nothing.
Again- in no other group in klal Yisrael is there any ‘looking for candidates’ going on.
Yours is the only one ….@CS
Where is your source for this assertion? You know it’s actually pretty common among many frum Jews, or at least was, to dread Moshiach’s coming instead of eagerly anticipating it. This is not in line with Torah, to the best of my knowledge, in fact the Rambam has a harsh term for such a person.If geula is real to you, and you eagerly anticipate Moshiach’s coming every day, you will be on the lookout for potential candidates as a natural result. I’ve been curious about the yanuka when I heard such rumors, and I’m always keeping an ear open for geula related news.
This would seem to be the natural Torah position (in addition to what’s already posted regarding the Rambam being a Halacha lmaase sefer).
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To dread M ‘s coming ??
I would not dare to put such a libel onto the holy leaders of klal yisrael ledoroteihem , whose mesorah we collectively follow.
It was under THEIR watch where the ‘looking for candidates’ policy was not implemented.
The [real] ge’ula was [probably] more real to them than to you.Nevertheless , said policy was NOT implemented.
Which leaves the question- eliminating your anticipation for the ge’ula as a valid cause, why are you more eager than our Greats to ‘look for candidates’ ?Does it have anything to do with the candidacy of a specific person ? Guess who …
Or is it merely an innocent longing for the general ge’ula ?Clue for some evidence – this looking for candidates policy – does it happen to overlap with those who happen to promote a specific candidate ???
@CS
Then we get called out like we’re pushing something on people. This is the pattern pretty much every time…
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Please do not put your words in to our mouth.All we’ve said is . other Rebeim , rabanim and public personalities are not called ‘lightweight’ on these pages even though they conceivably could fit the bill.
Why is habad different ?That was the question / protest by haleivi.
The difference is clear-
You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is MY mashiach.
You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is MY nasi. [nasi HADOR]
You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is a Prophet like Haggai Zharya and Malahi ,
You are the only group who imposes YOUR leader as navi, HALACHICALLY OBLIGATING , US [on the pain of mita byedei shamayim] to obey his directives.
You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is greater than Moshe Our Teacher [who spoke with God peh el peh]After hearing those outlandish earth shattering claims, and instead of accepting them blindly, we obviously examine the evidence, and the candidate is lacking.
Now the question is [and was] –
WHO put the rebbi of the habad devotees in the spotlight , to be examined ?
The habad people ,with their absurd once in a world history claims, or the rest of the Jews ?@CS
Sorry ,but You are not getting it [again].
We are not ba’alei tshuva.
And we are not geirim either.
[no offense intended to any of the above]We BH have a mesorah.
We are also well versed in the responsa and commentaries of our rebeim [meaning the gdolei haposkim and the gdolei hador] of the centuries which preceded us.
Our best and our finest dedicate their lives and their [formidable] total intellects to arrive at the real intent of their haskafa and halaha.
When we say that we NEVER were “looking for candidates”, and that we never “promoted the candidate deemed most fitting” , then that means that it isAGAINST THE MESORAH TO DO SO
A mesorah which carries the combined weight of ALL of klal yisraels rebeim of all the generations.
vechol hameshaneh yado al hatachtona.
Nothing less than Clear proof will be needed.I hope that even you , who never leared a sugya be’iyun [referring here to halaha be’iyun or umka dishmaatsa] , nor had any close association with gdolei hador who did learn sugyot be’iyun, will understand that this not a joking matter.
Nor is the purported proof/remez/gematria/wishful thinking from the divrei rambam a joking matter.1] We know the mesora , our fathers, grandfathers , great grandfathers were not osek in ‘lets look for M candidates / Lets promote some candidates.’
2] No tshuvot of anyone of authority, during the ages mention anything re ‘lets look for M candidates / Lets promote some candidates.’
3] There is no proof whatsoever from divrei rambam for ‘lets look for M candidates / Lets promote some candidates.’THIS WHOLE IDEA IS TOTALLY ABSENT IN KLAL YISRAEL > SAVE FOR ONE GROUP…….
@CS
Dovid Hamelech lived close to 3 thousand years ago. If you consider 30 years as the average for it to be considered a ‘new’ generation , we are talking about one hundred generations [about].
In ten generations ,every person has 1026 antecedents . Of your 1026 grandparents ,after you go back the first ten generations, each one has , going back another ten generations , another 1026 antecedents.
Another 10 generations equals another 1026 forebears. Do your math- 1026 times 1026 times 1026 equals ?Over one trillion zaidies and bubbies for each of us , all living in the times of Dovid hamelech.
There weren’t so many zaidies , simply because not so many of them existed in dovid hamelech’s times.
So we will HAVE to say that many zaidies and bobbies are a multiplication of ‘zaidihood’.
And that statistically speaking, it would be very unlikely if anyone in that generation would not be a bobby or zaidy.
So probably we would be hard pressed to find someone nowadays who we could categorise as a NON GRANDSON of Dovid Hamelech.All the rebbes nowadays have an impressive yichus going back to the most meyuhas mishpachot in klal yisrael, this is well known.
If you go through their yichus you will most certainly get to Dovid Hamelech .
.
If you are looking for ben ahar ben , I don’t think that the leader of the habad hasidim is either. edited@sechel
we already discussed ramban elsewhere. learn perek hachelek, hilchos melochim then the ramban and come back .
[sechel]
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remember the following principle – the flimsier the answers , the glibber the avoidance , the weaker your position is.
[quote from my previous post]GLIB AVOIDANCE .
Nothing more.
The Ramban is crystal clear.
Continue to avoid. the only result will be this :
You are WEAKENING your own position.@sechel
I don’t have the time to unpick your propaganda one by one right now.
It is nothing more than that –PROPAGANDA.
Soviet style.
But hope to get to it once bezrH.
@CS
1] You are missing the point . Totally.
You totally ignore the issue . Which is – You [attempt] to use the rambam as proof that we are supposed to ‘look for candidates for M’ and ‘promote’ the ones we think is the closest.
THERE IS NO PROOF WHATSOEVER from divrei rambam to your premise .AGREED OR NOT ?
2] Re accepted practice for the idea of ‘looking for candidates’ . The very simple answer is – it has never been done .
there is no record of it in any serious discussion of gdolei hador since hurban habayit.If someone popped up and claimed the mantle , only then was there a discussion.
Again. Not in the Ge’onim. Not in the rishonim. Not in the Poskim not in the aharonim, do we find any discussion of looking for a candidate. [Even though the RBSH’O would undoubtedly have someone ready if needed.]
Not until 50 years ago. In a very specific chug. For a very specific and obvious purpose.Get rid , only for one second of your bias [if possible] , and the sheer truth of what I am telling you , will hit you like a ton of bricks.
.Hemshech of Summary .
There is no source whatsoever for this idea that we are meant to ‘look for candidates’ for M.
Nor is there any source that we should promote anyone’s ‘candidacy’.
This is totally HKBH’s job.Our job is to keep the torah.
And screen all pretenders ,without fear or favor, according to the timeless criteria mentioned by our truly great , like the Rambam and the Ramban.And remember that criticism and scrutiny on one side have no connection whatsoever with hate on the other side.
And also remember the following principle – the flimsier the answers , the glibber the avoidance , the weaker your position is.
.lemaskana
1] Ramban DID write that M who died is not M.
He wrote it to the Jews.
2] CS wrote that non habad women MAY fall into watching non Jewish movies .
So MAY the habad women .
Is there any evidence of increased prevalence in the case of non habad women ?
Based on anecdotal evidence it might be just the opposite.
3] CS insinuated that non habad rebeim and rabanim do not feel responsibility for klal yisrael .
She has not clarified what she meant , nor has she apologised.@sechel
All the sfarim of the manhig of the habad hasidim are overwhelmingly osek in drush and agadeta and similar topics .
On which the klal of Ein Meshivin Al HaDrush applies .His contributions in halaha and in Umka dishma’ata are not at all comparable to Rav Akiva Eiger , Mishneh LeMelech , Hatam Sofer , Noda BiYehuda , Shulhan Aruch Harav , Pnei Yehoshua , Ktsot Hachoshen , Havat da’at , Urim Vetumim etc.
Those were [some of the] truly great amongst klal yisrael .They wrote on areas where there is clear responsibility , areas where you cannot say hidushim which merely SOUND nice .
In those areas you can be confronted with clear proofs against you , which you will have to answer to , which will hold you to account .
This is the stuff real Gdolei Yisrael are made of .Compared to those names mentioned above , the rebbi of the habad hasidim seems like something of a lightweight .
Read [better said learn] the writings of those rabanim . then do the same with the rebbi of the habad hasidim .If you are honest , you will walk away with a totally different feeling .
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1] That was [part] of my original post.
I was referring to the specific areas of halaha and umka dishmattsa.
Not to pshat in Chumash Rashi. Not to Drush. Not to Hasidut. Not to agadete.I learned some of your Rebbi’s hidushim in those areas, halaha and umka dishma’atse.
There is no reason to suppose that other hidushim in those areas would be any different to the ones I learnt.Ein meshivin al hadrush is not made up by me. It precedes me by over 2 thousand years at least.
2] You claim that many other gdolim maintained that the rebbi of the habad hasidim was the greatest t’ch after the war.
I can think of no better option than looking at the evidence. Compare his documented writings with those of the other t’ch , and let the evidence speak for itself.
I would suggest that for fairness’ sake we should exclude all and any use of encyclopedia’s and the like. [although this is hard to ascertain ]@sechel
When faced with the Ramban who wrote that we reject yoshke because he died, – the ramban never wrote that. as discussed elsewhere. yoshke was killed for convincing yidden to serve a”z. he was a rahsa, there was never a thought that he is moshiach, the ramban is reffering to a differnt point and was talking to christians, go learn the sugya.
[sechel]
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Another sign of habad apologists ignoring inconvenient facts.
RAMBAN did write that.
He was referring to Xtian belief that J is M .
He was writing this in lh’k and distributed it for the Jews , not for xtians.@Arso
Spell checker sides with you. I admit defeat.@haleivi
“Yes, calling someone’s Rebbe a lightweight is a heavy attack. Perhaps you don’t understand the relationship of a Chossid to their Rebbe, but it should be obvious that it is strong.”
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No one would call someone else’s rebbi a lightweight just like that .
I can come up with a long list of people who COULD be called lightweight . But wonder above wonder , no one calls them that on this thread.
Why not ?
Kavod habriyot . Lashon hara. Motsi Shem ra . Mevayesh pnei havero . Etc.
All are valid reasons and am yisrael are kdoshim b’h.This case , however is fundamentally different .
There is a concerted effort here to force onto Am Yisrael a Mashiach . With all type of outlandish, bizarre and misplaced claims .
This is a multi-decade effort which takes many forms and shapes .
Amongst the claims made – documented and verifiable – , some of them I personally heard from respectable mainstream card carrying members of habad.“Our Rebbi is greater than Moshe Rabenu. ”
“All other Rebbes and rabanim are Klipat hashum when compared to him . ”
“Someone who does not accept our rebbi , his neshama is in the clutches of the sitra acher. ”The people who undertook this concerted effort to push such delusional statements on to the public , are the ones who opened themselves up to the public square , and should be prepared to undergo a fact based ,open and honest evaluation by the very public on whom these assessments are being pushed .
This analysis of a public persona did not happen in a vacuum .It is merely a reaction .
A reaction to the previous action of crowning a M onto the WHOLE BODY of Yehudim .
Of a previous action of crowning a Nasi HADOR . On top of an entire generation .
Of a proclamation that after 2000 years hiatus of no nevua , since Hagai Zharya and Malahi , prophesy has returned .This is major stuff .
This a once in 2000 years occurrence .
Sorry , , no, a once in a world history occurrence .If you make those sort of claims – it is self-understood that you open yourself to public scrutiny .
You cannot make these sort of earth shattering claims [an understatement] and expect immunity.Immunity from open minded , fact based scrutiny .
Hope that made it clear – Scrutiny does NOT mean hate . It just that – scrutiny .
edited
.@sechel
btw i learned the entire shulchan aruch harav, and many parts of other seforim you mentioned, how much of the rebbe’s seforim did you learn? ok youre point? so after the ketzos, there is no more gedolim youre trying to say
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Not at all . Learn a Ma’aracha of R’AE on a sugya be’iyun . Then learn your rebbi’s hidushim on same sugya , and tell me honestly –are they in the same league ?
Talking about SH’HRav I am referring to Kuntras Achron , not the halahot .
I learnt some of your rebbi’s hidushim , You get an understanding of his approach .
There is no comparison between the Gdolei Yisrael I mentioned and your rebbi .
A quick recap of those Ge’onim
Rav Akiva Eiger , Mishneh LeMelech , Hatam Sofer , Noda BiYehuda , Shulhan Aruch Harav , Pnei Yehoshua , Ktsot Hachoshen , Havat da’at , Urim Vetumim etc.
Those were [some of the] truly great amongst klal yisrael .They wrote on areas where there is clear responsibility , areas where you cannot say hidushim which merely SOUND nice .
In those areas you can be confronted with clear proofs against you , which you will have to answer to , which will hold you to account .
This is the stuff real Gdolei Yisrael are made of .@menachem
I did not see those posts . Pl realize that my posts are not published immediately . [Apparently they need to be checked .] All posts are”checked”
So there is some time between my writing and its appearance .
Second of all, I have no particular interest in the MO vs haredi debate .
I barely read those posts.@sechel
So you still hold by the premise that your rebbi’s hidushim in halaha and umka di shmatsa rival those of r akiba eiger and hatam sofer ?
Interesting …When will the habad apologists understand and agree that criticism does not necessarily equal hate ?
Don’t they realize that usage of the hate excuse , only showcases the weakness of their arguments ?@CS
This is an interesting point that it never came up in history. I know there was speculation about the third Lubavitcher Rebbe as well (same name also), but I’d like to look into this point more to see if it’s accurate. I don’t think Moshiach candidacy is necessarily unique to lubavitch Chassidus- I could be wrong- I don’t remember other names outright.The premise I’ve always heard is that if the Rambam put the criteria for the Moshiach candidate in a Halacha sefer, then it’s meant for us to act on it.
[CS]
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1] if the rambam put the criteria for the M candidate , then it’s meant for us to act on it [your words]
This is a typical example of habad inverting the plain meaning to suit their propaganda.
Let’s summarize the arguments so far –Normative Yahadut : we are not meant look for candidates for M . If someone pops up and announces himself as M , we will investigate .
Habad : We are meant to look for candidates . The most suitable candidate [in our imperfect human eyes] is the one we should promote .Normative Yahadut : Proof that we are not meant to look for candidates , nor are we meant to promote candidates – For the last 2 thousand years we have not looked around , nor have we promoted candidates for M .
Not The Ge’onim . Not the Rishonim . Not the Poskim . Not the Acharonim . Not those who pray Nusah edot Hamizrah . Not those praying Ashkenaz . Not those who pray Nusach Ari . Not those who pray Nusach Sfard.Habad : Rambam speaks about simanim of M , i.e. the person claiming to be M , when and at what level is he considered as M , when he presents himself .
THAT IS PROOF THAT WE ARE MEANT TO LOOK FOR CANDIDATES FOR M AND PROMOTE HIM …..Now I am asking very simply – is that PROOF ????????
Do you know the definition of the word PROOF ????????We keep on going in circles again and again and ….
We should STOP and hash it out .
Yes or No .
Is that proof ?Please , CS . [or any other apologists]
IS THAT PROOF OR NOT ?
@sechel
1] All the sfarim of the manhig of the habad hasidim are overwhelmingly osek in drush and agadeta and similar topics .
On which the klal of Ein Meshivin Al HaDrush applies .His contributions in halaha and in Umka dishma’ata are not at all comparable to Rav Akiva Eiger , Mishneh LeMelech , Hatam Sofer , Noda BiYehuda , Shulhan Aruch Harav , Pnei Yehoshua , Ktsot Hachoshen , Havat da’at , Urim Vetumim etc.
Those were [some of the] truly great amongst klal yisrael .They wrote on areas where there is clear responsibility , areas where you cannot say hidushim which merely SOUND nice .
In those areas you can be confronted with clear proofs against you , which you will have to answer to , which will hold you to account .
This is the stuff real Gdolei Yisrael are made of .Compared to those names mentioned above , the rebbi of the habad hasidim seems like something of a lightweight .
Read [better said learn] the writings of those rabanim . then do the same with the rebbi of the habad hasidim .If you are honest , you will walk away with a totally different feeling .
2] all that is besides the controversial utterances , shitot and youth from the rebbi of habad. Which I would prefer to leave out here .
Yes lubavitch is unique in applying it to their Rebbeim. I guess as descendants of Beis Dovid, we are unique. And the term connotes responsibility for all Jews, not just your community.
And yes we’re proud of it and it wouldn’t bother us if others had the same outlook- it would be great if every community looked out for the entire Klal Yisrael.
[CS]
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All Rebeim are descendants of Beis Dovid .
But ONLY habad claims the title of Nasi .AND ONLY HABAD CLAIMS THE TITLE OF
“Nasi HADOR”
The whole generation .
Without even asking the generation .
I consider myself part of the generation . But no one asked me …2] Are you insinuating other rebeim do not feel responsibility for all Jews ?????
Only the manhig of the habad hasidim does ?Seems that all rebeim are next in line for waiting for your apology – after the tens of thousands of good orthodox , non habad women who [supposedly] watch non jewish movies , who have not heard from you yet ….
CS’s remarks consistently point to one direction – non reality –
Reality doesn’t count at all .
What habad wishes for , what suits , that constitutes reality .
Once we accept this premise , all kushiyot on habad disappear….Hello ?
Contrast this with a woman who grows up in a very frum home and community, but wasn’t blessed to learn and see the deeper side of Torah, it’s not hard to understand why she may find her pleasure and down time in non Jewish movies, music, books etc even if she’s dressed tznius to the hilt, and the impact this has on her home…
[CS]
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Are all other posts by CS so divorced from reality as this one ?CS ought to offer an unequivocal apology to the many tens of thousands of sincere women who are “not blessed to learn and see the [so called] deeper side of Torah” but nevertheless do not find ‘their pleasure and down time in non Jewish movies’ .
There are – probably- less women ‘blessed’ or influenced by the deeper side of torah [i.e. habad] who do not find their pleasure in non jewish movies , than women not ‘blessed’ by the deeper side of torah [i.e. non habad] who do not find their pleasure in non jewish movies .
CS – and the other habad apologists on this thread – seem to live in an alternate universe ….
.Yb
“Or , Phrased in another way – If you, CS, would be put in a ‘time machine’ , transported to the 1990 – 1994 era , and would be commenting on these pages , would you ‘explain’ those hazal like the shitah of ‘then habad’ or like you do now ?”I have no idea [CS]
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You are not being honest . Although you promised honesty .
You would defend the Habad line to the tee.
Just like you are doing now .
Without any regard for facts, reality and common sense.==================================================================
Just to make sure I have you right, you say the reason others didn’t see The Rebbe as a candidate for Moshiach (obviously among the ones who didn’t) had nothing to do with the alive or dead debate? So what was it then?
[CS]
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They did not see the Rebbi of the habad hasidim as a candidate for M because ….1] for the last 2 thousand years yidden NEVER looked for ‘candidates’ . Full Stop.
The few instances some looked and FELL for [bogus] candidates, it invariably resulted in DISASTER.
This whole idea of ‘looking for candidates’ is UNHEARD OF in normative yahadut , and is a newfangled notion, introduced by habad in the last 60 years AS A TOOL for the tolerance / acceptance of “the one Asher habad hafets biyekaro”.
This is CRYSTAL CLEAR to any unbiased observer.2] The Great Deception which habad attempted to use ,to make their leader palatable and tolerated as M by other Orthodox Jews .
For many decades habad , encouraged milema’ala , steadfastly denied any notion of attempting to crown their leader as M .
Anyone accusing Habad of the above was committing a blood libel , no less .
This was [supposedly] a MALEVOLENT SHEKER , stemming from nothing more than hate and prejudice , from midot ra’ot , from a two hundred years old blind vendetta against the originators of hasidut .
From people who [supposedly] wore tfillin pesulim , who are propped up with ga’ava and ego , and said ga’ava and ego were the sole reason why they were groundlessly accusing innocent ,selfless habadi’s of promotion of their Manhig .
Those accusations were [supposedly] BASELESS and those accusations themselves [based on the fact they were baseless] were used as ironclad proof of the malevolence of the accusers , no matter their number or their status.
.
Everyone knows how that turned out .
During the four years of Giluy Mashiach [1990 – 1994] , the Great Deception was uncovered in all its glory .
The so called ‘blood libel’ turned out to be a case of Ezehu Haham HaRo’e Et HaNolad.
The ‘malevolent sheker’ turned out to be grounded in fact and reality.
The whole idea of ga’ava , ego , midot ra’ot driven false accusations , sprinkled with unsubtantiated tfillin psulim allegations , melted totally under the harsh glare of the sun consisting of the new reality of messianic drivel and frenzy ,clearly directed [again] milema’ala.
.
If all that is not enough , then what is ?
.
When the Mashiach Amiti will come ,we will not need gimmicks ,nor great deceptions, nor will we need glib answers or wholesale change of topic [as replacements for answers] , nor will we need hazakot al ta’amula shelo hozeret rekam .
.
We do not have to worry how it is going to work .
It is not our business .
HKBH bihvodo uve’atsmo , not melubash beguf , will make it work .
He created the world , He gave the Torah , He looked and looks after the Yehudim in Galut .
The same RBSH’O Who did all of the above , will effect the Ge’oula HA’AMITIT , without candidacies and without any of our own ‘tricks’ .
Bechol Yom AchakehLO !
Lo , and not anyone else.
This the position of yahadut immemorial . And it will remain so .
Yishtabah Shemo.?
to really think that Rav Shach would send a talmid to the Rebbi of the habad hasidim – like you obviously claim :
is similar to deny the existence of the sun in broad daylight.Which sadly is the modus operandi of the habad apologists whenever faced with evidence contradicting their propaganda aims .
.
Which explains one [of the many reasons] reason why you guys lost and are continuously losing your heskat kashrut .@sechel
re story about Rav Shach sending his talmid to the Rebbi of the Habad hasidim for kabala…A sheker in hebrew is not any less of a sheker because it is in Hebrew .
Anyone who knew Rav Shach , knows that this is sheker .
It’s not the first sheker and probably not the last either.
.@CS
@sechel
I know for a fact the Rav Shach considered the Rebbi of Habad a heretic , At least that’s what he stated in public .
I happen to know because a close relative who I would trust blindly, was there and heard it from his mouth personally .
Maybe RS exaggerated for a tsorech , so that his talmidim should stay away from him [permitted according to Hafets Haim]
Or maybe not .
Either way he would not send any of his talmidim to habad for kabala explanations.
That much is clear .
Clear as day.
As clear as the fact that Habad itself unanimously advocated [pre 94] that M is from the living only …@CS
Whatever the excuse is re the position of “then habad”.
Are they Wrong or are they Right.
Thats NOT the issue at all .The issue is the following – and PLEASE stick to the argument this time .
Fact is that “Habad then” proclaimed LOUD AND CLEAR that mashiach is from living only .
.
HOW DID THEY THEN EXPLAIN ALL THE MA’AMAREI HAZAL ???
.
They knew all the abarbanels , all the rashi’s , all the sdei hemeds , all the sippurim of the friedreiker rebbi , all the merchandise you unpack everywhere , which allegedly is fire proof , bomb proof , impossible to argue with, etcetera. etcetera …….AND STILL DISCARDED ALL THOSE PROOFS .
All those litvishe , all those hasidi non habad who disagree with your pshatim , nu , they are not habad , what do they know about discovering the right pshat in hazal ?
But habad , those people who do know the right pshat in ma’amarei hazal , and do not err just because it “happens” to suit their propaganda objective at this given time , THEY DISCARDED ALL THOSE PROOFS,
How can you ignore all THEIR way of learning those ma’amarei hazal ?
Or , Phrased in another way – If you, CS, would be put in a ‘time machine’ , transported to the 1990 – 1994 era , and would be commenting on these pages , would you ‘explain’ those hazal like the shitah of ‘then habad’ or like you do now ?
My ‘educated guess’ is – lke the shitah of ‘then habad’ ….
So do you realize that you LOST all trust about understanding the REAL pshat in hazal , and memeila all trust in general ???
@CS
As to why it was “impossible” to end up this way- a) partly because there are sources also from the Rebbe about this generation going straight into chaim nitzchiim- So that does pose a seeming contradiction to Gimmel Tammuz- which is why the entire lubavitch refer to Gimmel Tammuz as such, and also why very few will say zia.But the main answer is that they were having bitachon that things wouldn’t end up this way.
[CS]
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THIS IS ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE .
I was alive then and followed EVERY PRONOUNCEMENT from 770 in real-time .
Including the articles by habad rabbanim and mashpi’im.
That was NOT the rationale .It was very simply – Based on the NORMATIVE JEWISH BELIEF that mashiach , ONCE HE STARTED could not die [in any shape or form] , otherwise he would be proven as Mashiach Sheker.
.
You are just repeating PROPAGANDA .
And blindly so.
.@ DAMoshe
He already accused the Rebbe of being a Mashiach sheker in the 1970s.
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Correction – He accused him already in the sixties .
Heard in the name of Rav Matityahu Salamon zl that Rav Shach zl asked him [RMS] in the sixties to publicize this in his [RS] name .
Which he did .
In a closed semipublic forum.@Arso
No , I dont think that having Meshugaas is an impediment to being a true oved hashem .
It maybe a corruption in hashkafa , and a waste and misdirection of energy, time and resources.
And it might have negative consequences and flow on effects .
But I would be dan them as a Shogeg [or even as a Ta’a bidvar Mitsva , who is patur of a korban if he is mistakenly aiming for osek bidvar mitsvah at the time of the averah action. [mishnah end of ch 19 in Shabbat]
Anyway I cannot ,and neither can any basar vadam, judge a person .
That is reserved for the Bor’ei Olam Himself [Rambam]@sechel
How brainwashed one can be ?You quote that Rav Shach sent his talmid to the Rebbi of the Habad hasidim for an explanation in kabbala ?
It seems that facts and reality are totally irrelevant when it comes to propaganda ….NO ONE SANE WOULD ACCEPT SUCH TOTAL RUBBISH .
It seems that some habad hasidim , when discussing their own rebbi ,are taking leave of their senses .
Black is portrayed as white , white as black, and no one blinks an eyelid .Am wondering – Is it at all possible to have a normal give and take with people like that ?
@ CS
I meant I found the name of a sefer that addresses the Ramban mentioned, but I’m going to give my source in this info a break so I’m not pressing it for now. In any case, aside from the Gemara, there’s the abarbanel and Sdei Chemed who refer to moshiach min hameisim positivelys well. Rashi is only one mefaresh on the Gemara and not Halacha lmaase.
[CS]
—————————————————————
All the mefarshim who speak about mashiach min hameitim [even when it is clear that this their kavana] are speaking about someone who has not been publicised as M before , has experienced thiyat hametim , and now starts from the beginning to be go’el klal yisrael.
Once they STARTED AND THEY SUBSEQUENTLY DIE ,its game over .That is the PASHTUT of their explanation .
Thats why Rambam says that if M is killed that’s proof that he is not .
That’s why Raman says thats how the Jews know that the notsri was an impostor .
That’s why during the whole history of Klal Yisrael, this was considered NORMATIVE JUDAISM .
AND THATS WHY HABAD THEMSELVES – THEIR RABANIM AND MASHPI’IM , all without fail , PROCLAIMED IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE WORLD , from 91 – 94 that it is KEFIRA in the 13 ikarei emuna to entertain THE POSSIBILITY OF Rmm’S dying before fully accomplishing the ge’ula.THE GREATEST SIGN OF THE UNIVERSAL ACCEPTANCE OF THIS PASHTUT ARE THE LAST 2 LINES.
Why did habad [then] claim that is IMPOSSIBLE for him to die ?
They would be on much safer ground , claiming that their leader is M ,without precluding his death ?Why ?
AL KORCHACH – even they did not want to go against the pashtut of our mesorah , against the pashtut of the rishonim .
Question to THE HONEST CS : please an answer to this question ?
An answer , please . Not a sidestep .
Not , I have an answer but will not share it now .
Not , I am looking for a sefer which deals with it .
Not , the mitnagdim are not any better .
Not , wholesale ignoring of the question , hoping people will forget .
AN ANSWER >
@CS
CS promised honesty in one of the previous posts .
Honesty does NOT equal sidestepping .1] Did Official Habad , up until the end of the eighties, continuously reassure the outside world [ who were critical of traces of mashiach noises within habad] that this was AGAINST habad leadership policy ?
Did they attack their [then mashiach] critics as ‘Haters’ ?
As opponents of torat hachasidut , and therefore biased against , and therefore misjudging habad ?Yes or no ? Without sidestepping , please .
Yes or No ?
Can we [the outside , non habad world] assume that the ABSENCE of a clear ‘Yes or No’ answer , is an indication that habad has something to hide here ?
@CS
To be an ehrlich oved hashem is VERY important .
no doubt about that .
But to have a correct hashkafa and not follow meshugaas in a cult like way is not any less important .
If you do not open your eyes wide open and reason SOLIDLY with an open torah mind , who knows where one can end up .And may I say some more [a lesson I learned from this decades long saga]
even being a totally sincere oved hashem IS NO GUARANTEE WHATSOEVER that one doesn’t stumble – badly- in hashkafa .
Habad yochi’ach ……
May this serve as a timely reminder for all of us .
.
@CS
In one post you claimed you were not aware of official Habad Policy before the Histalkus / Disappearance of 1994.
In a subsequent post you claimed , you are well aware of it .
Be it as it may , the following question is very pertinent –When will we get an unreserved acknowledgement that Official Habad made two major U-Turns in the last 60 – 70 years ?
Or possibly , alternatively rephrased as “one Major U-Turn and one Great Deception” ?Thanking you [or any other habad defender] in advance , for tackling this issue with real emet like honesty
Have read multiple posts from Habad defenders on multiple threads , and no one had the fortitude yet to look the facts and reality in the eye .
Have not given up . I deeply believe in the inner goodness of humanity and that at least someone will find the courage to do so .But , Please – please , Not by saying that the non habad world ALSO made a u- turn by initially [pre 94] opposing habad ‘candidacy’ for M , based on the premise that M comes from the dead . and somehow only now [after 94] insisting M only comes from the living.
That’s a factual non starter …To the Mods
– why was my post edited ?
At least give me an opportunity to reread it and edit it myself ?And how, exactly would that be done?
@AAQ
Don’t look at the messenger – look at the message .
If the message is correct , who cares how it got to you ? [eizehu haham halomed mi….]
And if the message is not correct , why would you accept an incorrect message just because a clever man delivered it to you ?@CS
CS is TOTALLY missing the point , all the while pretending [?] to answer it .
editedthe post before about negi’ut is not meant to be condescending
has veshalom .
,The gemara suspect even one of the greatest, the kohen gadol, of negi’ut .
@Arso
Am talking about the OFFICIAL LINE here . Not about what people said .
The official line from the Hasidi hugim .The official line from Habad was clearly that this mashiach crowning was AGAINST their rebbi’s wishes .
They cannot control everyone in such a big hasidut .That the ‘haters’ were looking for problems and magnifying some small tiny dirt which had come in from the outside .
It was [supposedly] a result of the rapid influx of baalei thshuva who did not have the proper habad ‘mesorah’ ….
That they were the ‘victims’ of their own success ….The TRUTH however was , that this was , as it seems , a ‘carefully orchestrated decades long campaign “milema’ala'” ….
.
A spectacular u turn …. Or maybe the Great Deception is a more accurate description ?@ CS
do you realize that All your so called ‘proofs’ that mashiach comes from meisim are automatically NULL AND VOID ?1] In your eyes the habad rebbi and habad rabanim are THE ONLY AUTHENTIC shitah in yiddishkeit .
The other yehudim have it mostly right but they would do best to listen to the greatest experts around [i.e. the people mentioned before]suppose that you [and other habadi’s] would fully agree to that statement [which is not necessarily passul]
2] Pre 94 the ONLY AUTHENTIC shitah in yiddishkeit disregarded those ‘proofs’ .
Obviously those ‘proofs’ MUST BE null and void .
the only explanation – per force- is your detractors’ pshat in those ma’marei hazal .
Why is that pshat so wrong in YOUR EYES , if the only authentic shitah of judaism approved of them ?
To summarize
CS does not know about the pre 94 non habad world , and therefore has no explanation about one of the major u turns in the Jewish world .
CS does not know about the u turns official habad performed during the last 7 decades.
CS does not adequately explain what their side is going to do with an explicit , centuries old, unchallenged Ramban , which clearly and unambiguously deals , head on , with the issue at hand . [as opposed to the other sources which could be explained in various ways]
CS is ignoring their own side ‘s clear and public declarations SUPPORTING their detractors present position .
CS is still looking with ‘innocent wonder’ at their detractors’ inability to see the yashrut and correctness of their position .
And we are left with equal wonder at the IMMENSE POWER of negi’ut .
Kol Hanega’im Adam Ro’eh Huts MiNig’ei Atsmo .
Their position is riddled with u turns , inconsistencies and contradictions against centuries old , well established thought .
They represent a small minority within Judaism .
AND THEY STILL LOOK AT US AS IF WE ARE THE MESHUGA”IM HERE …..
Mind boggling .
Kol Hanega’im Adam Ro’eh Hut MiNig’ei Atsmo …..
@ Arso
Btw. That wasn’t the only major flip flop in habad theology .
Think you asked in one the old threads about it :For years – no, for decades . For decades there was a major Mahloket .
There were those , mainly Yeshivish , led by Rav Shach and other Litvish Yeshivish Rashei Yeshivot who accused Habad of crowning their manhig as mashiach . This was going on for decades . From the sixties onwards . Until the late Eighties .
This was one of the main bones of contention in those times .
I know , not because I heard about it . I LIVED through those times .
I remember them , vividly .
it was the Hasidi Olam [non Habad ] who came to the rescue , in favor of habad. They battled the Yeshivishers . The Litvish Balabatish people were also on the hasidi side . They did not understand what the yeshivish people saw in habad .Btw – This was one of the main arguments in the 88 election cycle where Aguda and Degel split . Aguda and the hasidim vehemently defended habad against the false [at the time] accusations that habad is aiming to crown their rebbi as mashiach .
Hotsa’at shem ra ! An avla against habad , ehrlich people ! how can you accuse them of these irresponsible shtuyot voiced by some irresponsible hotheads . This is against their rebbi’s shitah . Against the hozer rashi R kahn . Those Yeshivishers are stam haters [sounds familiar? ] . Sin’at Hinam .
They are the source of the galut . Etc. Etc.Another 3 years later – in 1991 .
Suddenly the rebbi accepts his messiahship from his hasidim and R Kahn falls in line . All habad rabbanim sign kabalat malhut …..
WHAT HAPPENED ?for Decades the habad critics were derided [Heard those accusations already in the sixties] .
And were PROVEN RIGHT in the most spectacular u turn in Jewish history .
That itself was already an excellent lesson in who has a hazaka , and who lost his hazaka ……
Heard some rumblings then from the klal hasidi side . How they defended for years the indefensible .But from the habad side ? Only bliss .
Was the bliss a RESULT of the ignorance ? Hard to believe.They themselves were screaming themselves hoarse that it [this Messiah aspiration] is all one big libel and a sheker .
Ela Mai the bliss was ‘made up ignorance’ they simply decided to ignore it .Which in turn created real ignorance .
For the later generation.
Am sure CS won’t even know what I am talking about , all the while this was a clear reality I [and my generation] lived through .Mind boggling …
If CS has no regard for facts so well known –
they disqualified themselves from any mature discussion of this topic .This response of attributing to the non habadi’s pre 94 , the position that
1] M HAS to come from the meisim
2] That was the reason why the leader of the Habad Hasidim was disqualified in their viewis a sign of either CLEAR DISHONESTY
or a sign of ELEMENTARY IGNORANCE AND SHALLOWNESS
and should serve as a final and clear refutation of their bikush ha’emet and a total bankruptcy of the habad debating methods
and the habad debating aims .