yankel berel

@CS
Where is your source for this assertion? You know it’s actually pretty common among many frum Jews, or at least was, to dread Moshiach’s coming instead of eagerly anticipating it. This is not in line with Torah, to the best of my knowledge, in fact the Rambam has a harsh term for such a person.

If geula is real to you, and you eagerly anticipate Moshiach’s coming every day, you will be on the lookout for potential candidates as a natural result. I’ve been curious about the yanuka when I heard such rumors, and I’m always keeping an ear open for geula related news.

This would seem to be the natural Torah position (in addition to what’s already posted regarding the Rambam being a Halacha lmaase sefer).
—-
To dread M ‘s coming ??
I would not dare to put such a libel onto the holy leaders of klal yisrael ledoroteihem , whose mesorah we collectively follow.
It was under THEIR watch where the ‘looking for candidates’ policy was not implemented.
The [real] ge’ula was [probably] more real to them than to you.

Nevertheless , said policy was NOT implemented.
Which leaves the question- eliminating your anticipation for the ge’ula as a valid cause, why are you more eager than our Greats to ‘look for candidates’ ?

Does it have anything to do with the candidacy of a specific person ? Guess who …
Or is it merely an innocent longing for the general ge’ula ?

Clue for some evidence – this looking for candidates policy – does it happen to overlap with those who happen to promote a specific candidate ???

@CS
Sorry ,but You are not getting it [again].
We are not ba’alei tshuva.
And we are not geirim either.
[no offense intended to any of the above]

We BH have a mesorah.
We are also well versed in the responsa and commentaries of our rebeim [meaning the gdolei haposkim and the gdolei hador] of the centuries which preceded us.
Our best and our finest dedicate their lives and their [formidable] total intellects to arrive at the real intent of their haskafa and halaha.
When we say that we NEVER were “looking for candidates”, and that we never “promoted the candidate deemed most fitting” , then that means that it is

AGAINST THE MESORAH TO DO SO

A mesorah which carries the combined weight of ALL of klal yisraels rebeim of all the generations.
vechol hameshaneh yado al hatachtona.
Nothing less than Clear proof will be needed.

I hope that even you , who never leared a sugya be’iyun [referring here to halaha be’iyun or umka dishmaatsa] , nor had any close association with gdolei hador who did learn sugyot be’iyun, will understand that this not a joking matter.
Nor is the purported proof/remez/gematria/wishful thinking from the divrei rambam a joking matter.

1] We know the mesora , our fathers, grandfathers , great grandfathers were not osek in ‘lets look for M candidates / Lets promote some candidates.’
2] No tshuvot of anyone of authority, during the ages mention anything re ‘lets look for M candidates / Lets promote some candidates.’
3] There is no proof whatsoever from divrei rambam for ‘lets look for M candidates / Lets promote some candidates.’

THIS WHOLE IDEA IS TOTALLY ABSENT IN KLAL YISRAEL > SAVE FOR ONE GROUP…….

@sechel
we already discussed ramban elsewhere. learn perek hachelek, hilchos melochim then the ramban and come back .
[sechel]
—-
remember the following principle – the flimsier the answers , the glibber the avoidance , the weaker your position is.
[quote from my previous post]

GLIB AVOIDANCE .

Nothing more.

The Ramban is crystal clear.
Continue to avoid. the only result will be this :
You are WEAKENING your own position.

@CS
1] You are missing the point . Totally.
You totally ignore the issue . Which is – You [attempt] to use the rambam as proof that we are supposed to ‘look for candidates for M’ and ‘promote’ the ones we think is the closest.
THERE IS NO PROOF WHATSOEVER from divrei rambam to your premise .

AGREED OR NOT ?

2] Re accepted practice for the idea of ‘looking for candidates’ . The very simple answer is – it has never been done .
there is no record of it in any serious discussion of gdolei hador since hurban habayit.

If someone popped up and claimed the mantle , only then was there a discussion.
Again. Not in the Ge’onim. Not in the rishonim. Not in the Poskim not in the aharonim, do we find any discussion of looking for a candidate. [Even though the RBSH’O would undoubtedly have someone ready if needed.]
Not until 50 years ago. In a very specific chug. For a very specific and obvious purpose.

Get rid , only for one second of your bias [if possible] , and the sheer truth of what I am telling you , will hit you like a ton of bricks.
.

lemaskana

1] Ramban DID write that M who died is not M.
He wrote it to the Jews.
2] CS wrote that non habad women MAY fall into watching non Jewish movies .
So MAY the habad women .
Is there any evidence of increased prevalence in the case of non habad women ?
Based on anecdotal evidence it might be just the opposite.
3] CS insinuated that non habad rebeim and rabanim do not feel responsibility for klal yisrael .
She has not clarified what she meant , nor has she apologised.

@sechel
When faced with the Ramban who wrote that we reject yoshke because he died, – the ramban never wrote that. as discussed elsewhere. yoshke was killed for convincing yidden to serve a”z. he was a rahsa, there was never a thought that he is moshiach, the ramban is reffering to a differnt point and was talking to christians, go learn the sugya.
[sechel]
—-
Another sign of habad apologists ignoring inconvenient facts.
RAMBAN did write that.
He was referring to Xtian belief that J is M .
He was writing this in lh’k and distributed it for the Jews , not for xtians.

@haleivi
“Yes, calling someone’s Rebbe a lightweight is a heavy attack. Perhaps you don’t understand the relationship of a Chossid to their Rebbe, but it should be obvious that it is strong.”
—–
No one would call someone else’s rebbi a lightweight just like that .
I can come up with a long list of people who COULD be called lightweight . But wonder above wonder , no one calls them that on this thread.
Why not ?
Kavod habriyot . Lashon hara. Motsi Shem ra . Mevayesh pnei havero . Etc.
All are valid reasons and am yisrael are kdoshim b’h.

This case , however is fundamentally different .
There is a concerted effort here to force onto Am Yisrael a Mashiach . With all type of outlandish, bizarre and misplaced claims .
This is a multi-decade effort which takes many forms and shapes .
Amongst the claims made – documented and verifiable – , some of them I personally heard from respectable mainstream card carrying members of habad.

“Our Rebbi is greater than Moshe Rabenu. ”
“All other Rebbes and rabanim are Klipat hashum when compared to him . ”
“Someone who does not accept our rebbi , his neshama is in the clutches of the sitra acher. ”

The people who undertook this concerted effort to push such delusional statements on to the public , are the ones who opened themselves up to the public square , and should be prepared to undergo a fact based ,open and honest evaluation by the very public on whom these assessments are being pushed .

This analysis of a public persona did not happen in a vacuum .It is merely a reaction .
A reaction to the previous action of crowning a M onto the WHOLE BODY of Yehudim .
Of a previous action of crowning a Nasi HADOR . On top of an entire generation .
Of a proclamation that after 2000 years hiatus of no nevua , since Hagai Zharya and Malahi , prophesy has returned .

This is major stuff .
This a once in 2000 years occurrence .
Sorry , , no, a once in a world history occurrence .

If you make those sort of claims – it is self-understood that you open yourself to public scrutiny .
You cannot make these sort of earth shattering claims [an understatement] and expect immunity.

Immunity from open minded , fact based scrutiny .
Hope that made it clear – Scrutiny does NOT mean hate . It just that – scrutiny .
edited 
.

@menachem
I did not see those posts . Pl realize that my posts are not published immediately . [Apparently they need to be checked .] All posts are”checked”
So there is some time between my writing and its appearance .
Second of all, I have no particular interest in the MO vs haredi debate .
I barely read those posts.

When will the habad apologists understand and agree that criticism does not necessarily equal hate ?
Don’t they realize that usage of the hate excuse , only showcases the weakness of their arguments ?

@sechel
1] All the sfarim of the manhig of the habad hasidim are overwhelmingly osek in drush and agadeta and similar topics .
On which the klal of Ein Meshivin Al HaDrush applies .

His contributions in halaha and in Umka dishma’ata are not at all comparable to Rav Akiva Eiger , Mishneh LeMelech , Hatam Sofer , Noda BiYehuda , Shulhan Aruch Harav , Pnei Yehoshua , Ktsot Hachoshen , Havat da’at , Urim Vetumim etc.
Those were [some of the] truly great amongst klal yisrael .

They wrote on areas where there is clear responsibility , areas where you cannot say hidushim which merely SOUND nice .
In those areas you can be confronted with clear proofs against you , which you will have to answer to , which will hold you to account .
This is the stuff real Gdolei Yisrael are made of .

Compared to those names mentioned above , the rebbi of the habad hasidim seems like something of a lightweight .
Read [better said learn] the writings of those rabanim . then do the same with the rebbi of the habad hasidim .

If you are honest , you will walk away with a totally different feeling .

2] all that is besides the controversial utterances , shitot and youth from the rebbi of habad. Which I would prefer to leave out here .

Hello ?

Yb
“Or , Phrased in another way – If you, CS, would be put in a ‘time machine’ , transported to the 1990 – 1994 era , and would be commenting on these pages , would you ‘explain’ those hazal like the shitah of ‘then habad’ or like you do now ?”

I have no idea [CS]
——
You are not being honest . Although you promised honesty .
You would defend the Habad line to the tee.
Just like you are doing now .
Without any regard for facts, reality and common sense.

==================================================================
Just to make sure I have you right, you say the reason others didn’t see The Rebbe as a candidate for Moshiach (obviously among the ones who didn’t) had nothing to do with the alive or dead debate? So what was it then?
[CS]
——
They did not see the Rebbi of the habad hasidim as a candidate for M because ….

1] for the last 2 thousand years yidden NEVER looked for ‘candidates’ . Full Stop.
The few instances some looked and FELL for [bogus] candidates, it invariably resulted in DISASTER.
This whole idea of ‘looking for candidates’ is UNHEARD OF in normative yahadut , and is a newfangled notion, introduced by habad in the last 60 years AS A TOOL for the tolerance / acceptance of “the one Asher habad hafets biyekaro”.
This is CRYSTAL CLEAR to any unbiased observer.

2] The Great Deception which habad attempted to use ,to make their leader palatable and tolerated as M by other Orthodox Jews .

For many decades habad , encouraged milema’ala , steadfastly denied any notion of attempting to crown their leader as M .
Anyone accusing Habad of the above was committing a blood libel , no less .
This was [supposedly] a MALEVOLENT SHEKER , stemming from nothing more than hate and prejudice , from midot ra’ot , from a two hundred years old blind vendetta against the originators of hasidut .
From people who [supposedly] wore tfillin pesulim , who are propped up with ga’ava and ego , and said ga’ava and ego were the sole reason why they were groundlessly accusing innocent ,selfless habadi’s of promotion of their Manhig .
Those accusations were [supposedly] BASELESS and those accusations themselves [based on the fact they were baseless] were used as ironclad proof of the malevolence of the accusers , no matter their number or their status.
.
Everyone knows how that turned out .
During the four years of Giluy Mashiach [1990 – 1994] , the Great Deception was uncovered in all its glory .
The so called ‘blood libel’ turned out to be a case of Ezehu Haham HaRo’e Et HaNolad.
The ‘malevolent sheker’ turned out to be grounded in fact and reality.
The whole idea of ga’ava , ego , midot ra’ot driven false accusations , sprinkled with unsubtantiated tfillin psulim allegations , melted totally under the harsh glare of the sun consisting of the new reality of messianic drivel and frenzy ,clearly directed [again] milema’ala.
.
If all that is not enough , then what is ?
.
When the Mashiach Amiti will come ,we will not need gimmicks ,nor great deceptions, nor will we need glib answers or wholesale change of topic [as replacements for answers] , nor will we need hazakot al ta’amula shelo hozeret rekam .
.
We do not have to worry how it is going to work .
It is not our business .
HKBH bihvodo uve’atsmo , not melubash beguf , will make it work .
He created the world , He gave the Torah , He looked and looks after the Yehudim in Galut .
The same RBSH’O Who did all of the above , will effect the Ge’oula HA’AMITIT , without candidacies and without any of our own ‘tricks’ .
Bechol Yom Achakeh

LO !

Lo , and not anyone else.

This the position of yahadut immemorial . And it will remain so .
Yishtabah Shemo.

@sechel

to really think that Rav Shach would send a talmid to the Rebbi of the habad hasidim – like you obviously claim :
is similar to deny the existence of the sun in broad daylight.

Which sadly is the modus operandi of the habad apologists whenever faced with evidence contradicting their propaganda aims .
.
Which explains one [of the many reasons] reason why you guys lost and are continuously losing your heskat kashrut .

@CS

@sechel
I know for a fact the Rav Shach considered the Rebbi of Habad a heretic , At least that’s what he stated in public .
I happen to know because a close relative who I would trust blindly, was there and heard it from his mouth personally .
Maybe RS exaggerated for a tsorech , so that his talmidim should stay away from him [permitted according to Hafets Haim]
Or maybe not .
Either way he would not send any of his talmidim to habad for kabala explanations.
That much is clear .
Clear as day.
As clear as the fact that Habad itself unanimously advocated [pre 94] that M is from the living only …

@CS
As to why it was “impossible” to end up this way- a) partly because there are sources also from the Rebbe about this generation going straight into chaim nitzchiim- So that does pose a seeming contradiction to Gimmel Tammuz- which is why the entire lubavitch refer to Gimmel Tammuz as such, and also why very few will say zia.

But the main answer is that they were having bitachon that things wouldn’t end up this way.
[CS]
=======================================================================
THIS IS ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE .
I was alive then and followed EVERY PRONOUNCEMENT from 770 in real-time .
Including the articles by habad rabbanim and mashpi’im.
That was NOT the rationale .

It was very simply – Based on the NORMATIVE JEWISH BELIEF that mashiach , ONCE HE STARTED could not die [in any shape or form] , otherwise he would be proven as Mashiach Sheker.
.
You are just repeating PROPAGANDA .
And blindly so.
.

@Arso
No , I dont think that having Meshugaas is an impediment to being a true oved hashem .
It maybe a corruption in hashkafa , and a waste and misdirection of energy, time and resources.
And it might have negative consequences and flow on effects .
But I would be dan them as a Shogeg [or even as a Ta’a bidvar Mitsva , who is patur of a korban if he is mistakenly aiming for osek bidvar mitsvah at the time of the averah action. [mishnah end of ch 19 in Shabbat]
Anyway I cannot ,and neither can any basar vadam, judge a person .
That is reserved for the Bor’ei Olam Himself [Rambam]

@ CS
I meant I found the name of a sefer that addresses the Ramban mentioned, but I’m going to give my source in this info a break so I’m not pressing it for now. In any case, aside from the Gemara, there’s the abarbanel and Sdei Chemed who refer to moshiach min hameisim positivelys well. Rashi is only one mefaresh on the Gemara and not Halacha lmaase.
[CS]
—————————————————————
All the mefarshim who speak about mashiach min hameitim [even when it is clear that this their kavana] are speaking about someone who has not been publicised as M before , has experienced thiyat hametim , and now starts from the beginning to be go’el klal yisrael.
Once they STARTED AND THEY SUBSEQUENTLY DIE ,its game over .

That is the PASHTUT of their explanation .
Thats why Rambam says that if M is killed that’s proof that he is not .
That’s why Raman says thats how the Jews know that the notsri was an impostor .
That’s why during the whole history of Klal Yisrael, this was considered NORMATIVE JUDAISM .
AND THATS WHY HABAD THEMSELVES – THEIR RABANIM AND MASHPI’IM , all without fail , PROCLAIMED IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE WORLD , from 91 – 94 that it is KEFIRA in the 13 ikarei emuna to entertain THE POSSIBILITY OF Rmm’S dying before fully accomplishing the ge’ula.

THE GREATEST SIGN OF THE UNIVERSAL ACCEPTANCE OF THIS PASHTUT ARE THE LAST 2 LINES.

Why did habad [then] claim that is IMPOSSIBLE for him to die ?
They would be on much safer ground , claiming that their leader is M ,without precluding his death ?

Why ?

AL KORCHACH – even they did not want to go against the pashtut of our mesorah , against the pashtut of the rishonim .

Question to THE HONEST CS : please an answer to this question ?

An answer , please . Not a sidestep .

Not , I have an answer but will not share it now .

Not , I am looking for a sefer which deals with it .

Not , the mitnagdim are not any better .

Not , wholesale ignoring of the question , hoping people will forget .

AN ANSWER >

@CS
To be an ehrlich oved hashem is VERY important .
no doubt about that .
But to have a correct hashkafa and not follow meshugaas in a cult like way is not any less important .
If you do not open your eyes wide open and reason SOLIDLY with an open torah mind , who knows where one can end up .

And may I say some more [a lesson I learned from this decades long saga]

even being a totally sincere oved hashem IS NO GUARANTEE WHATSOEVER that one doesn’t stumble – badly- in hashkafa .

Habad yochi’ach ……

May this serve as a timely reminder for all of us .

.

To the Mods
– why was my post edited ?
At least give me an opportunity to reread it and edit it myself ?

And how, exactly would that be done?

@CS
CS is TOTALLY missing the point , all the while pretending [?] to answer it .
edited 

@Arso
Am talking about the OFFICIAL LINE here . Not about what people said .
The official line from the Hasidi hugim .

The official line from Habad was clearly that this mashiach crowning was AGAINST their rebbi’s wishes .
They cannot control everyone in such a big hasidut .

That the ‘haters’ were looking for problems and magnifying some small tiny dirt which had come in from the outside .
It was [supposedly] a result of the rapid influx of baalei thshuva who did not have the proper habad ‘mesorah’ ….
That they were the ‘victims’ of their own success ….

The TRUTH however was , that this was , as it seems , a ‘carefully orchestrated decades long campaign “milema’ala'” ….
.
A spectacular u turn …. Or maybe the Great Deception is a more accurate description ?

To summarize

CS does not know about the pre 94 non habad world , and therefore has no explanation about one of the major u turns in the Jewish world .

CS does not know about the u turns official habad performed during the last 7 decades.

CS does not adequately explain what their side is going to do with an explicit , centuries old, unchallenged Ramban , which clearly and unambiguously deals , head on , with the issue at hand . [as opposed to the other sources which could be explained in various ways]

CS is ignoring their own side ‘s clear and public declarations SUPPORTING their detractors present position .

CS is still looking with ‘innocent wonder’ at their detractors’ inability to see the yashrut and correctness of their position .

And we are left with equal wonder at the IMMENSE POWER of negi’ut .

Kol Hanega’im Adam Ro’eh Huts MiNig’ei Atsmo .

Their position is riddled with u turns , inconsistencies and contradictions against centuries old , well established thought .

They represent a small minority within Judaism .

AND THEY STILL LOOK AT US AS IF WE ARE THE MESHUGA”IM HERE …..

Mind boggling .

Kol Hanega’im Adam Ro’eh Hut MiNig’ei Atsmo …..

If CS has no regard for facts so well known –
they disqualified themselves from any mature discussion of this topic .

This response of attributing to the non habadi’s pre 94 , the position that
1] M HAS to come from the meisim
2] That was the reason why the leader of the Habad Hasidim was disqualified in their view

is a sign of either CLEAR DISHONESTY

or a sign of ELEMENTARY IGNORANCE AND SHALLOWNESS

and should serve as a final and clear refutation of their bikush ha’emet and a total bankruptcy of the habad debating methods
and the habad debating aims .

@CS

@Arso

re the term nasi .
The problem is not so much the term nasi [although I do see a problem as it is more elevated than the term rebbe or admor which is used in other circles]

Rather the problem is the word which is mentioned after the term nassi :

NASSI HADOR

the whole generation ….

Cannot remember the whole generation getting together and appointing the leader of the habad hasidim as Leader of the Whole Generation ….

What really happened – was the following : Habad hasidim [a small minority when using a worldwide Orthodoxy perspective] , crowned their leader as nasi over the overwhelming majority of Orthodox [non habad] Jews who did not even have any voting rights …..

You can give it any name you fancy . I would call this “Cultural Imperialism”.

But in the greater scheme of things , this is understandable [and even logical] .

Think about it .
If your end goal is to get all Jews to accept your leader’s messianic position , you have to first prepare their psyche .

First let them get used to calling him Nassi hador . Nassi of EVERYONE.
The next step – the messiah of EVERYONE , is not such a big unsurmountable step anymore …..

Food for thought …..

@CT
1] Ramban is in sefer havikuach – part of kisvei haramban
2] you did not answer whether all yidden who do not listen to ‘nevua’ of the leader of habad are hayav mitah byedi shamayim or not [and why]
3] According to your explanation of nevua i. e. every rebbe of habad who gave etsot in gashmiyut is a navi . we should extend that to every rabbi in yahadut who gives etsot in gashmiyut . why only to habad rebbeim ?
so, following your reasoning nevua NEVER stopped in in Jewish History . Every rabbi gave etsot in gashmiyut . this NEVER stopped .
Ela Mai – they gave etsot because it says in AVOT Ch 6 . Kol Halomed Torah LiShma … Nehenin Mimenu Etsa VeToshiya…
Ditto for the Rebeim of Habad .

@Arso
It is mentioned in Tanya . Quite a Mitnagdishe Shtikel I must say …

To the Group

CS promised to be honest
Meanwhile all I see is more of circle painting around the arrows and then claiming to have hit the target.

“To the group”? Are you qwerty613?