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CS is [mis]quoting tanya 32 .
It says clearly in tanya 32 that apikorsim there is a mitsva to have tahlit sin’a against them .CS seems to argue against the tanya …”
[yb]
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Yes he also defines an apikores The way I wrote- someone who was at your level in Torah and mitzvos, you already tried to bring them back by fulfilling the Mitzvah hocheach tochiach (according to the dinim – gently and privately at first, unless making a public chillul Hashem etc) and he refuses to return.
[CS]
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I looked up the tanya [ch 32] this morning .
CS is misquoting tanya for the second time.
You cannot learn gmara or tanya or whatever if you are not exact.All those prerequisites CS mentioned are not in connection to an apikorus. Tanya clearly mentions them in regard to a non apikorus.
CS is the one who wants us to believe that they pertain to the apikorus.Not so ,according to tanya.
Mind you that ‘s from someone whose brothers are ‘besting’ the non habad people with their arguments ….
She learnt wrong pshat in her own mentors words – only to be found out by a ‘hater’ ….A clear sign that the only objective the average habad person has in learning tanya- is to find USAGE of tanyas words to support their preconceived notions of what habad stands for.
As opposed to a no holds barred limud of tanya, without negi’ut, ,only to search for and find the true meaning of the authors kavana in the tanya’s words.My experience with hakatan taught me that any fact or shita quoted by him is suspect.
It has to be checked in its original source with critical thinking applied.
One cannot take it on face value.@arso
Same gimatria as Tsarfat
and as Ufaratsta
Besides functioning as bet rabenu shebebavel
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All part of the torat maham shilo – torah hadashah me iti tetse
—–@lernt
Thanks@CS
4] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE PUBLICLY STATE DURING MANY DECADES THAT THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO CROWN THEIR OWN LEADER AS MASHIACH – ONLY TO WHEN CONVENIENT CHANGE COURSE AND PUBLICLY DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE ?”There are still those who are living in the first half of the question… those who said it meant it at the time, and some still do.
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The question was ON HABAD AS A MOVEMENT , not on specific individuals . The official spokesmen , including the Leader of the movement.THEY conveyed the message that anyone who claims that habad is trying to crown their own leader is wrong , motsi shem ra and a ‘hater’ .
And its those very same people who conveniently ‘forgot’ all about that , and subsequently joined and/or initiated the mass mashiach meshigaas .
That was the question . Ignoring or sidestepping it , is disingenuous and not a sign of honesty.
@CS
5] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE PUBLICLY STATE DURING MANY YEARS THAT THAT THEIR LEADER CAN NOT DIE AND THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE IKAREI EMUNA AND IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME IN THE FUTURE – ONLY TO WHEN CONVENIENT CHANGE COURSE AND PUBLICLY PROCLAIM THE EXACT OPPOSITE ?”Haven’t seen this anywhere- especially the way you worded it
========================
Thanks for that.
Suppose you have not seen or heard about it – because it never happened before in any other community in Jewish History.The wording is an exact reflection of the facts on the ground. As witnessed by me.
And anyone else who bothered at the time to follow all the details as they were unfolding.
..
@CS
DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE IN AN ORGANIZED FASHION LOOK FOR CANDIDATES FOR MASHIACH AND SUBSEQUENTLY DECIDE ON THE WINNER ,BASED ON POPULAR ACCLAIM ?”No idea. Was Yinon shmo by his students, a way of promoting? And the other yeshivos as well? Or they all happened to promote the name of their Rebbi by coincidence? I don’t think it’s about a popularity contest btw. Rather, Moshiach belongs to all yidden so once his identity is revealed, we want to share how to bring about the full Geula by following his world view, with our fellow Jews. Many times the Moshiach campaign just means to educate people on what the era is about, and how to prepare, without focusing on a candidate.
———————–
1] WITHOUT FOCUSING ON A CANDIDATE…. [CS]
Quite innocent.The lack of focus on a candidate [in those instances] . Is that because of the name of the candidate is irrelevant ? Or , rather is that merely a preparation as a more smooth way of inserting the name of THE candidate in a later stage ??
Which one of those two options is closer to the truth ??
2] It is clear that this gemara which is discussing the names of mashiach is doing so in a theoretical manner .
IF min hahaim . IF min hameitim etc.Not in a PRACTICAL way as R’A and bar kochba.
Or in Shabatai Tsvi [shr’y]
Or in neo habad end 20th Century.There is NO MENTION of ‘promotion’ of any kind whatsoever. Just a note of a discussion in the Bet HaMedrash.
Outside of the Bet HaMedrash there was no knowledge of this at all.
.2] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE USE THE MEANS OF MASS ADVERTISING AVAILAIBLE TO THEM IN THEIR CONTEXT TO PROMOTE AN INDIVIDUAL AS MASHIACH ?”
Possibly. Rabbi Akiva promoted bar kochba. Shabtai tzvi was endorsed by many Rabbanim. How exactly they did so I don’t know since we don’t have media from then.
——————————
CS agrees -again- that there is no proof whatsoever .It is ‘possible’. That is the furthest she can go.
R’Akiva said – I thought Bar Kochba was Mashiach . He PROMOTED bar kochba ???
If CS is honest , she will agree that there is NO source whatsoever of anyone PROMOTING bar kochba.It seems more like Bar Kochba’s ACHIEVEMENTS ‘promoted’ b’k . Without any outside ‘promotion’ necessary. Ma’aseha Yekarvuha ….
Which, incidentally happened to the reason for R’A ‘s assumption ….It seems that ,in an inverse sense , all the way through the ages, people realized that the more ‘outside promotion’ is needed , the more that shows that the helek hama’asim is lacking.
Thats why ‘promotion’ is historically totally absent and lacking in Jewish Life.
Which leaves us as the only other precedent, the other False , Failed and despised ‘messiah’.
It’s quite simple , Shabtai tsvi , Shem Resha’im Yirkav, had a devoted army of sincere , blindly devoted followers who fell prey to the charisma of their leader , who ‘promoted’ their leaders supernatural feats , far and wide, as proof of his messiahship.
Woe to the cause which draws its legitimacy and ways of operation from that exposed fraudster and his mass movement of lies and deceit …..
.@CS
Thanks for engaging point by point .With all the sympathy for all other worthy activities you are engaged in , here you answers bring out the bankruptcy of neo habad theology.
It is by now clear to any neutral bystander who is not steeped in the movement and thereby unblinkered by negi’ut, , that there are some major issues with habad theology and its acrobatics .
Acrobatics performed to alternately fit a specific predetermined goal ,still fit with reality to a certain degree, and above all be marketable enough to convince unsuspecting and naive yehudim to blindly follow their messiah.
.@CS
“ 1] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE HOLD ATSAROT FOR KABALAT PNEI MASHIACH ?”Possibly not- the avoda throughout golus was focused on Avodas habirurim. Now this is our focus, as we’ve finished Avodas habirurim- hence the difference.
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CS agrees here there is no proof it was ever done. CS claims the avoda has changed.This is one of the beginnings of The Schism.
The Schism between the main body of Klal Yisrael and a small minority of blind followers of the leader of habad hasidim. Who claimed , without any back up source, and for specific and obvious purposes, that the avoda changed.
..
Yankel, the zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own
====================
It has been pointed out , repeatedly , that this argument is a non starter in hilchot pikuah nefesh.
We dont , cannot and are not allowed to limit our p/n responses by the criteria of “who started it”.
In all contexts.There has been no response whatsoever to this point.
Does that mean that no response exists ?Could we therefore conclude this argument as settled ?
Please – as a last appeal – anyone has an answer ?If not ,we should consider this point as ‘finally settled’ , Shtika kehoda’a. Not like the satmar shita [who attempt to use this argument].
@arso
I personally know many Orthodox Rabanim who would accept your sefer . After reading your comments on this thread.Sechel is suffering from cognitive dissonance
According to sechel –
“Done! נשתכחה תורת המתנגדים.”“No godol now is against habad” …. according to sechel.
In sechels illusory world no godol is against habad , habad leader is alive now [give him hagba …], habad never claimed that their leader cannot die, and the moon is a banana ….
.
Rabbi Chay Amar, shliach to Golden Beach, Florida, met with ten leading Litvish and Sephardic rabbonim across Eretz Yisroel, presenting with them the set of the Rebbe’s commentaries on Rambam. …., Rabbi Yitzchak Shaul Kanievsky son of Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rabbi Mordechai Shmuel Edelstein, a nephew of the late Rav Gershon Edelstein,,
============Sechel is busy with classic habad mis/dis information.
I happen to personally know that both R Ch Kanievski and R G Edelstein zihronam livraha ,had a very negative view of neo habad.
Whether the report of R YS Kanievski or R MS Edelstein accepting the habad leaders’ commentaries on Rambam are accurate or an outright fabrication , I do not know.
Even if did happen [which I doubt], It is NO INDICATION of their illustrious relatives’ , or their own for that matter, praise or acceptance of neo habads aberrations of the last 60 – 70 years .
.@coffee
LaBri’ut . Ask it. Never stopped anyone from asking.@coffee
Thats not the issue with habad.@avirah
aaq is right in his argument here.
The yazidi’s did not fare too well in the last few years. Who said yehudim would have fared any better , if they would have been no state ?@avirah
Re hazon Ish’s kabala learning- there is a ‘study’ by one of the mizrahi academics in bar ilan university about hazon ish where he argues that h’i did not learn kabala. I saw this study in the possession of a habad friend of mine . Thats probably where sehel gets his info from.
Btw- R SS Deutchs biography of the rebbi of the habad hasidim was forbidden and burnt in habad, but an equivalent [or even worse] biography about the hazon ish is kasher and even mumlats.
Maybe this can be sourced in some specific farbrengen on Purim 1956 ….
.I would take the ‘sting’ out of this whole debate with the following :
We do not live in a one dimensional world .
Yesh bezeh ma she’ein bazeh. And le’hepach.Sometimes we do need to decide on a one-dimensional course of action.
For example who is first in pidyon shvuyim or birkat hamazon.
But in real “superiority” we will never know.Rashi Psahim 25B [quoting sanhedrin?] ma hazi dami didach sumek tfei – who can know, who HKBH favors more ?
Even if the other guy is a t’ch . Even if he is gadol hador. Even if he is a Tsadik.
That is the source that retsiha is yehareg veal yaavor.This is a logical reasoning strong enough to deduct a dinei nefashot psak halaha lema’aseh. [!]
Cf Rambam Hilch Tshuva . Sometimes one avera is shakul neged kama mitsvot. Sometimes the opposite.
No human can make these heshbonot , only Kel Hogeh Dei’ot [gist of Rambams words]
.@Reb Eliezer
Thats true . But the ma’ala of bet hillel is that they were Shonin divrei bet shammai before their own.
Shonin = learning.@CS
CS: My point was that Rashi isn’t necessarily sticking his point to just the Sanhedrin.
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So there is NO PROOF for anything more than sanhedrin .
You agree and we agree .
You cannot use this as proof .The Beis Hilel quoted the view of the Beis Shamai first because of their humility before their decision.
@avirah
if it would be that kind of situation [i.e. threat of genocide], the satmar rov would have no problem cooperating with whoever is available to save jewish lives….
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Highly doubt that .
Rhetoric I hear from Satmar quarters is that mere existence of the medina is a contravention of 3 averot hamurot and is yehareig veal yaavor , no limit on the number of those ‘yehareg’s’ ….Even pikuach nefesh is not matir to be drafted in the tsava.
That is very obvious in all their statements.
editedSo , no.
satmar rave WOULD HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM cooperating with the medina .
.CS is [mis]quoting tanya 32 .
It says clearly in tanya 32 that apikorsim there is a mitsva to have tahlit sin’a against them .CS seems to argue against the tanya …
@avirah
Yankel, the zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own – that’s different than the Nazis. Plus, there’s no active genocide in eretz yisroel – if it would be that kind of situation, the satmar rov would have no problem cooperating with whoever is available to save jewish lives
[avirah to yb]
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1] Zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own ….
This seems to be the one of the most incomprehensible arguments I ‘ve ever heard.
Will Hatsole also operate under this assumption?
If someone causes himself harm, Hatsole is not coming ???Its your fault , you created the problem , fix it yourself. Can you in your wildest dreams hear them saying this and refuse to come ??
Why is EY any different ?Heard of the Lav of Lo Taamod Al Dam Reacha . But – Have not heard of any exemption even remotely close to your argument.
2] …Plus, there’s no active genocide in eretz yisroel –
Utterly incomprehensible.
If not for the IDF , Hashem Yishmor , there would be an active genocide.
Al pi derech hateva , the only thing standing in the way of a genocide is the IDF.The most recent vivid example is the hundreds of innocent victims ahenu bnei yisrael, who were murdered like cattle and stray dogs by vicious barbarians who cannot wait to repeat the same on to all yehudi inhabitants [hashem yishmor]
Dal mehachi the IDF , you have a full fledged genocide right around the corner.
Remember the Secretary General of the Arab League proclaiming, without any shame whatsoever, in front of the whole world : “The Massacres of the Mongols will pale in comparison.”Reality is quite pesky , you cannot wish it away …..
.Sechel and CS are conveniently sidestepping the main points .
1] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE HOLD ATSAROT FOR KABALAT PNEI MASHIACH ?
2] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE USE THE MEANS OF MASS ADVERTISING AVAILAIBLE TO THEM IN THEIR CONTEXT TO PROMOTE AN INDIVIDUAL AS MASHIACH ?
3] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE IN AN ORGANIZED FASHION LOOK FOR CANDIDATES FOR MASHIACH AND SUBSEQUENTLY DECIDE ON THE WINNER ,BASED ON POPULAR ACCLAIM ?
4] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE PUBLICLY STATE DURING MANY DECADES THAT THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO CROWN THEIR OWN LEADER AS MASHIACH – ONLY TO WHEN CONVENIENT CHANGE COURSE AND PUBLICLY DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE ?
4] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE PUBLICLY STATE DURING MANY YEARS THAT THAT THEIR LEADER CAN NOT DIE AND THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE IKAREI EMUNA AND IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME IN THE FUTURE – ONLY TO WHEN CONVENIENT CHANGE COURSE AND PUBLICLY PROCLAIM THE EXACT OPPOSITE ?
Sechel and CS, Please – honest answers , without insults and denigrations and without sidestepping .
La’inyan.Behavod
– The floor is all yours ….Yankel, if by collaboration you mean joining the government, then no, the satmar rov holds that’s assur.
If you mean on an individual level, like a business partner, then it’s no different than a goy and you can.
If you’re referring to working with them to save jews during the Holocaust, then nobody every said that’s not allowed.
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Saving Jews in Europe is mutar .
Saving Jews in EY is assur ?
Ma nishtana ?I started posting because I thought some people were just misinformed about some ideas. It didn’t take too long to realize that they are not open to hear the truth, and continue to accuse others of things that never happened and twist their words the way they want in order to justify their claims against them.
But I continued posting cuz I enjoy it. And so maybe others who see the thread with an open mind will see whose arguments are logical and who’s are not.@ujm
du host nish bessr tsu ton vi onfangen aza topic ?
vu iz dain haham enav berosho ?@sechel
Coca cola type of pirsomet to [search for candidates and then] publicly make atsarot lekabalat malhut shel mashiach was NEVER done within klal yisrael irrespective of location and date.Not like CS and sechel attempt to make us believe.
This is A TOTAL NEWFANGLED IDEA promoted by neo habad.
Even if you turn yourself in to a pretsel , like the theological twists and turns of neo habad , you will have ZERO EVIDENCE of any precedent for that.
.You came with an explanation [only King David – not us].
Remember ?I asked a question on your explanation.
You ignored the question.
Remember ?So the question stands , no ?
@ujm
How much did the ticket cost ?
What is the name of the person who paid Kastner ?@avirah
As well, he cooperated with the Zionists to leave Hungary.
[lernt to avirah]
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You did not answer to this one . Is it Mutar to cooperate with Zionists according to vayoel moshe ?@sechel
According to your logic: the mitzvah of Talmud Torah changed, well tznius also did. Cuz the gra said it’s so important …. he’s “changing” a mitzvah.
[sechel to yb]
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Gra said tsniut IS AND WAS important .
Does that equal “change” or not ?
Obviously not.You , however ,are claiming that T’T WAS important and now it isn’t important.
Does that equal change or not ?
It does, For sure.Where is sechels basic logic ?
.
@sechel
hope you are more accurate in your learning and your medame milta lemilta than your accuracy in determining who you are talking to.First read.
Then stop.
Think .
Then answer.Shabat shalom
@sechel
have a look in She’ilat Yavets end of Tshuva 5 where he brings numerous examples of people [who are wothy of hora’a] being holek on their rebbi -even muvhak.So i would suggest to CS not to tell her brothers yet that she is besting all those non habad people even though she never learnt in a yeshiva.
Same to sechel….@sechel
this is one example that if you think over the question, my answer etc, you see how a bit more looking into the sugya you have your “shtarke kashe” answered
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דבר ברור ומפורש בתורה שהיא מצוה עומדת לעולם ולעולמי עולמים, אין לה לא שינוי ולא גרעון ולא תוספת,
Thats the lashon harambam ,sechel is quoting.Three things can not happen to any mitsva of the torah
1] Shinuy
2] Gira’on
3] TosefetSechel agrees that ,at least still in the times of hazal,, the nature of the mitsva of Talmud Torah was shakul keneged all other mitsvot .
So Sechel agrees that this mitsve as it was given by HKBH to Moshe , WAS shakul keneged all other mitsvot .Sechel also says [and here he seems to be supported by the pashute pshat in tanya] that at a certain moment, there was a ‘change’ , and this mitsve ‘lost’ its privileged status , is ‘demoted’ and from now and onwards it is only a ‘regular’ mitsva , not shakul keneged all other mitsvot.
Sechel wants us to believe that this change and this demotion , is not included in the definition of Shinuy, nor the definition of gira’on.
Nu , Nu …..
@aaq
I don’t know anyone called ‘Chaim Brisker’ ….Time to upgrade your Kvod HaTorah .
Maybe then, as a result, your power to be correctly medameh milta lemilta will be upgraded too.
.@aaq
Naive maybe, but were he to succeed, hundreds of thousands of people would be alive including thousands of Jews, and with immeasurable impact on world politics, including Israel. Might have been enough justification.
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Naive. That is exactly the description of someone who thinks that motzei shabbat would be too late for his “peace mission”.@sechel
Typical habad answer- again.
First attack and denigrate the questioner.
Then give a [non] answer.
—-
not even clear in your answer what you are referring to. The question about t’t keneged kulam ? which was Asked just now.Or the question about ahavat apikorsim tanya 32 . which was a while ago and is not on tanya but on neohabads compatibility with the brackets in tanya . Which was asked a while ago. There was an attempted answer from sechel with a following refutation from yb which was left unanswered by sechel.
Btw, no one accused tanya or arizal of kfira.
The only [wrongly] accused here which I can find , is yb. He is wrongly accused of saying that the bal hatanya is a kofer.
Question for sechel.
Sechel is very into ‘hate and love’ .
Nevertheless sechel is wrongly accusing yb of libeling the tanya.Is that a manifestation of ‘love’ towards yb ? Or the opposite ?
@AAQ
True, some of the saved Polish children from religious families were forced to go to anti-religious kibbutzim – not so much because kibbutzim wanted to re-educate them…..
==============================
Come on.
This was a direct attempt at shmad.
Not for any remuneration.
There was a concerted effort to shmad those children.@arso
Agree with you about the greatness of the baal hatanya.
But still am lacking understanding in this particular point.@sechel
You still owe me an answer on this one ….
—————-
Tanya asks on his previous principle where he states a Jew [i.e. US] is meant to have also love and also hate towards a sinner. How does that fit with the pasuk of tahlit sin’a , where David hamelech is SHOWING US that the proper approach is hate only , without love.To summarize , we have conflicting directives for US , is it love plus hate, or is it hate only ?
Answer of the Tanya is that it depends which type of sinner is it , the apikores type of sinner or the ma’amin type of sinner.
The apikores type the ‘only hate’ approach applies FOR US.
The ma’amin type of sinner ‘the ‘love-hate’ type approach applies FOR US.That is the pshat for any unbiased learner of Tanya . This is plain obvious.
If pshat would be like sechel and all other habad apologists who are biased against the pashute pshat, why doesn’t tanya answer the question by saying the pasuk is talking about david hamelech and not for us ??
Al korchach that both his previous principle AND this pasuk are meant to be taken as directives FOR US.
—————————————-
Am still waiting …
.@ujm
CORRECTION
The common denominator we can all agree to is to daven for the peaceful well being of all the yehudim and the whole world.Without giving HKBH any etsot how to run His world .
If He wants it , then mashiach will take over the State – without any ‘dismantlement’ . And if He wants , then He will dismantle it, hopefully peacefully.
Not up to us to dictate how He should run His world.
Nor is it allowed for us to contribute to any danger to any yehudi in EY.
Publicizing that we want the peaceful dismantlement of the State, will knock US support for Israel, which is critical for the yehudims safety .
So by extension , ujm [and fellow travelers] might have blood on their hands if their position will be used to stop support for Israel.
.
@pekak [to square]
… with your constant assumption that you can refute his [satmar rovs] entire sefer without having absorbed it from cover to cover ?
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There is no need to absorb satmar ravs sefer from cover to cover .One can safely rely on the overwhelming majority of Gdolei Yisrael who were familiar with his sefer from cover to cover , and still disregarded his conclusions.
He was a very great man, but his shitah was not accepted .
This is a fact.
.@sechel .
In short your answer is-
that the principle of Nitzhiyut hatorah is not applicable to the ‘importance’ of mitzvot.Even when as a result of this ‘diminished importance’ , people will leave that previously important mitsva and do the previously less important mitsva.
Do you have a source for this claim ?
Arso’s answer is more understandable , but this is a big hidush – that talmud torah keneged kulam is only referring to t’t as practiced in time of hazal . But ‘second class’ t’t [even as practiced by people like arizal and Sh’a hrav !!] , we do not say the principle that t’t keneged kulam.
Would like to know whether there is source for this pshat too ?
@simcha
If the army is so understaffed that Dati Leumi talmidim in Mechina and Hesder are being pulled out early…
—-
Don’t really like challenging people like you , butis the reason they are pulled out early because they are understaffed and there is no other way besides pulling them out early,
or
is it that they do not care so much about pulling them out , so out of the various options they might have at their disposal, this was the easiest one , so why not .
.
This reminds me a bit of PM Bennet, a ‘religious’ Jew [remember him?] traveling on shabbat to make peace between Russia and Ukraine.
If he is mehalel shabat for it , imagine how important it must be ….@ sechel
Anyone understands the answer ?
Why is this not against nitshiyut hatorah ?
Sechel is not referring to yemot hamashiach , he is referring to us , now.
?hi did you receive my post ?
@sechel
Do you agree that ani maamin shezot hatorah lo teheh muhlefget , that the torah is nitschi ?Hope you do .
If so, how can you quote tanya that talmud torah keneged kulam does not apply nowadays ?
.@aaq
1] Without political Zionism, the Arabs and the British could/ would have been more accommodating to Jewish immigration . Who can know for sure but there is logic to it.
2] Even if not , the price paid was very ,very high. Too high.