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Beit shammai argued severely against beit hillel and it was never considered sin’at hinam.
Criticism without hate, by definition CANNOT be Sin’at hinam.
It cannot be that the lame excuse of sin’at hinam should be employed as an answer to legitimate questions, and obvious contradictions.Legitimate questions and obvious contradictions deserve serious and to the point answers and explanations, and not flippant responses which many times totally ignore the actual points raised.
To top off the inadequate answers with bogus claims of sin’at hinam, is in itself an incriminating indictment regarding the qualitative poverty of said answers.I myself , a former supporter and naive victim of its propaganda, harbor no hate whatsoever against habad , nor against the hasidim of habad.
Nevertheless I do criticize their ideology and theology. Without hate.If something is wrong, it is not hate to say that it is wrong.
Judaism is full of criticism.
Beit Shamai criticized Beit Hillel severely and are nowhere accused of sin’at hinam as a result.
And the list of similar examples across history can go on and on.Aderaba, it is incumbent on the criticized to supply adequate answers and explanations lekayem ‘vihiyitem neki’im mehashem umiyisrael’.
@potato
potato should stop injecting the false argument of sin’at hinam.
Arguments about mashiach min hameitim is totally legitimate and have NOTHING to do with sin’at hinam.
Misusing the idea of sin’at hinam is a lame attempt at influencing a debate to be had on its own merits.@gobrit
Its not such a nonchalant affair.
This is ikarei emuna.
At least thats what all of habad clearly said for quite a number of years . [pre 1994]
He CANNOT die because this is ikarei emuna.Ikarei emuna is heavy stuff .
Its the stuff, countless of our forefatehers were burnt alive for.
Lost their houses , their parnassah and their children.You don’t play around with ikarei emuna.
They are not mere socks, to be changed the next day.
Firstly ,This has nothing to do with smiha . R chaim kanievsky did not have smiha and certainly [over]qualified as a talmid haham al pi hahalaha.
Secondly , the principle of Muflag behohma bedoro is found in shulhan aruch hilch kvod rabo in YD .
Not my invention.
RCV is not gadol meraban shmo .
like the all the other rabanim stretching back to the time of the gmara [cant think of any exception right now] who were not and are appropriately named as r or rav or by any other nickname eg the berdichever or by their sefer , the ktsos, or the goan .
Main point is whether its solely by their name or not.
This is not a matter of ‘sensitivity’ rather a matter of halacha.
in any case thanks for your consideration.Mashiach cannot be min hameitim because of the following simple reason.
1] habad is never wrong & whenever there is a source contradicting what they say , there is a way out. There HAS to be one.
2] habad with all its mashpi’im , rabanim, thinkers, ovdim, maskilim, rashei yeshiva, mothers , temimim,mekuravim, mekarvim , shluhim, adherents and hasidim ALL OF THEM , without fail, were saying pre 3 tamuz that their rebbi cannot die because there is a nevua that their rebbi is mashiach.
3] nevua letovah cant be batel.So how could habad entertain the thought that mashiach comes from the meitim?
Sin’at hinam is being used as a get out of jail card. Whenever you are confronted with something you do not have a common sense answer, you scream sin’at hinam …
and voila , all is clear.Just a reminder what sechel is –
Someone who doesn’t [want to] understand the point you are making
And then sets himself up as having answered your point by writing something totally incoherent@sehel
Don’t tell me what your leader said or did not say at the time .
I was following every utterance of his at the time he made them . They were quoted in kfar habad magazine at the time and were disseminated all over the jewish world like only habad knows how to.I myself remember how he said that EY is the safest place on the globe and that no one will be hurt there.
And I also remember this being used as proof [by habad propaganda] for his so called [literal!] nevua status.Literal Nevua which we lost since Hagai Zharya and Malahi , and which [supposedly] returned now.
Here all habadi’s agree that his supposed Navi status is meant literally , right ?That’s how it was stated in the sicha [if not mistaken shoftim 5751] and that’s how it was taken by the hundreds of habad “yes men” [masquerading as neutral rabbis issuing an innocent psak] and subsequently by all stripes of habad hasidim .
Stated literally and taken literally.The sicha about God clothed in human form was also similar- both stated and taken literally.
In habad – everything the leader says is taken literally . Otherwise you are not a Chossid.And their leader knows that very well. Thats how he can say the most outrageous things , claim to the outside world that its was meant non literal, while he can rest assured that his hasidim will get the message, good and proper.
Bezot tibachenu , proof is, how did his hasidim take it ?
That is THE question. Not whether rebbi from ropshits or r bachyai or whoever else said something similar or not.
That’s totally irrelevant.What is relevant, is how was the message taken and therefore —– what was the intended message from that master communicator , their leader. Who clearly knew in advance how it would be taken. And still issued that message. Fully intended the outcome of that message.
The literal outcome of the navi message . and the literal outcome of the ‘clothed in human form’ message.
@always ask
Koreh lerabo bishmo is an issur lefi shulhan aruch hilch kvod rabbo.
No connection to smicha, which itself is only a newish institution, only a few hundred years old, whereas the issur of koreh et rabbo bishmo is mentioned in the gemara.Muflag be hochma bedoro is considered like rabo , hence the issur of koreh et rabo bishmo toward gdolei hador.
berdichever or rogotshever does not classify as kore rabo bishmo .
In the case of Hillel and Shamai the principle of gadol merabban shmo , is used. But this is only valid for someone whose gadlut was so pervasively recognized that it was pashut that gadol merabban shmo. As opposed to RCH’V who, while exceedingly great ,still did not factually fit this specific criteria.The issur of koreh et rabo bishmo is not made any more lenient because that person happens to belong to a criticized group , to people with your hashkafa
So please acknowledge the truth
one should not say chaim volozhiner, rather say R Chaim volozhiner.
….if …. actually cared about Jewish lives, then …. could go to the UN (yes, that UN) and tell them that they want out, and that the UN should figure out a way to keep all the Jews safe there while ending the Zionist nightmare (for Jews). But even if that UN option were no longer true – and nobody can prove that ….
{hakatan]
———————–
1] If the UN option was no longer true . If ….
What’s the question at all .
Can the UN be trusted to protect the people it was sent to protect ?
It was sent to Bosnia to protect the local Muslim population from the Bosnian Serbs.
How many THOUSANDS of innocent civilians were directly murdered within a small distance of those very UN soldiers sent to protect them ?The thousands of trained soldiers from the UN stationed in South Lebanon cannot implement their own resolution 1701, out of fear of Hizbullah.
The Yazidi’s also were supported by the UN in the face of IS attacks on them .
Result ? Ask the yazidi’s how many survived , and ask those who did survive , in what state they survived….2] The UN should figure out a way ….
Besides brazen appeasement to those barbarians , I have not [neither has anyone else] seen a way to deal them.
The UN could not even protect ITS OWN PEOPLE stationed in those lands of the likes of Iraq or Afghanistan from the bloodthirsty savages.
And you still suggest to willingly entrust millions of yehudim to their “protection” ????Where is your ahrayut for the safekeep of yehudim ?
It is beyond my understanding how you could be so OBLIVIOUS to the very real threat to the very lives of over 7 million of ahenu bnei yisrael in EY ??
Is yiddishe blood hefker in your eyes ???Where is your lev ?
Where is your mo’ach ?
Where is your Yir’at Shamayim ?
Where is your torah ?
Where is your nos’eh be’ol with brothers and sisters hanetunim ba’tsara ?If your own flesh and blood little daughter would be critically ill chvsh and you would need an IDF helicopter to transport her to hospital , would you let her better die ???
Would you say “HKBH will already send a yeshua” or will you put her on the flight ???
@echad
No one is listening to Berger because of WHO he is.
If there is someone listening to him , it is because of WHAT HE SAYS.So, it is totally pointless to either denigrate or elevate his personality.
It is worthwhile however, to concentrate on the substance of his message, if you want to have some impact.Engage with his message, consider the reality , the evidence.
Inform yourself.
Let go of any preconceived notions.
Examine the facts with a fresh and open mind.
Weigh it carefully.And you will come to the inevitable conclusion : Habad nowadays, while consisting of wonderful people, is not normative Judaism.
Thats not sin’at hinam , nor is it hateful.It’s simple reality.
.Ani Ma’ami Be Emuna Shleima SheHu Levado Asa VeOseh VeYa’aseh Lechol HaMa’asim Boreh UManhig LeChol HaBru’im.
HU LEVADO.
.Stop living in the past.
We live in the present with the obligation to provide for the future where the wellbeing of our brothers are at stake.
Clear as day, that the collapse of the medina signifies mass shefihut damim h-Shem yismerenu.
We cannot work for that to happen beshum panim.
We have to support the medina now , as this is now the only viable way to be shomer on the lives and property of ahenu bnei yisrael.No change
I would be against the establishment of the State in the first place
But now that it exists, I support its continued existenceOct 7 only brought to the fore what will chvsh happen bederech hateva if its existence is imperiled
If not for the IDF, of course with syata dishmaya, ,and again, reckoned bederech hateva, who and what would stop those animals ?So, its continued existence, and our support of it, with all its faults and deficiencies, is definitely a matter of mass pikuach nefesh and therefore mandated by the torah.
@Always ask
Similarly, is Chaim Volozhiner responsible for modern excesses of your local yeshiva?
=================
Why can’t you write R Chaim Volozhiner ???Hello?
@lostspark
I would venture to say to you the following –Concentrate less on the personalities of qwerty and/or berger and instead more on the substance of what they say.
I couldn’t care whether Berger is a Dr, an astronaut, a garbage collector or a rabbi.
If he talks emet , to the point, I listen.
@qwerty
Lubavichers regularly “prove” that the Rebbe was a Novi by saying he made correct predictions.
[qwerty]
——————
If that is the case, then it logically should follow that he is hayav mitah as navi sheker.
A navi , in order to be accepted as navi, has to undergo a test, where the only acceptable success rate is 100 % .
A 99% return is considered as failure, As this indicates that God did not speak to him and therefore is a Navi Sheker and liable of mitah bebet din.
[Cf rambam hil yesodei torah towards the end]Their rebbi predicted that NO ONE will be hurt in EY during the First Gulf War.
fact of the matter is that people were wounded and one person DIED as a direct result of missile impact.Rambam states clearly – if only one minor detail does not eventuate as predicted , siman that he is a navi sheker.
So , I would say , He did not mean it as a clear prediction and as an ultimate test for halahic qualification for nevua level.It was meant as a hope ,as encouragement ,as a braha and as a limud zhut.
Thats the beginning and the end of his so called “halahic nevua status”.To all habad apologists out there :
One simple question
DO YOU BELIEVE YOUR REBBI TO BE A NAVI IN A LITERAL SENSE OR IN A NON LITERAL SENSE ?
A truthful answer , please ….
.
Sehel complains that whatever habad says is taken by its critics in a literal sense.
Answer is simple – that’s because that’s the way it is taken by habad hasidim , the intended audience – in a literal sense.
Which is also part of the speakers intention.Doesn’t the speaker know that his hasidim will take it literally ??
Sure he does .And he nevertheless continues speaking , knowing that it will be taken literally.
Without any caveats or warnings, that this meant to be understood in a non literal senseSo ,after we know that the audience AND the speaker mean it literal, why the complaint about the critic and the bystander also taking it literally ?
This is disingenuous , in my view.
————————————————
Btw – this is how their rebbi succeeded in getting his hasidim to this point .You cannot whip your followers into hysterics overnight .
You cannot change their mind overnight either.
Don’t forget all those ideas of him being the greatest the cleverest the one we waited for 2000 years etc etc are all new . They had to seep into his follower’s consciousness AND subconsciousness .That takes time, subtlety and consistency.
The best way is to use language which lends itself to both a literal and non literal meaning .
Thats how it is never earth-shattering news , which might cause opposition, evidence-based scrutiny or criticism .
Because its ‘only’ non literal.
Not a big deal.But the new language lodges itself in the listener’s brain.
Then there is a repetition, or better, many repetitions , until this becomes part of normal conversation between his followers, like hello and good morning.Which again fortifies this new idea in the listeners consciousness. It becomes so strong and so pashut in his mind after years of the above , that when challenged by an outsider who did not go thru this process, the listener genuinely believes the outsider is at odds with objective reality.
This has been going on for the last 8 decades, with the abysmal results now plainly on display.
@Always ask
Seems to me that all that historical back and forth between hasidim and mitnagdim is IRRELEVANT when we are discussing the novel last rebbi from habad approach. and all the newfangled stuff since their rebbi’s …death / rebirth / disappearance/ non death or however else you want to call it .
[Btw reminds me a bit of the male / female / non binary etc etc circus] .
History is always interesting but not always relevant.
.The following I saw with my own eyes:
a habad truck with
right beside a picture of their rebbiRebbe, Advisor ,Leader ,Prophet, Redeemer, God. [!!]
????
—————————————-
What was the rejoinder ??? The logical habad rejoinder ???
yankel berel , get your eyes checked
————————————–
Is it possible to have a normal debate with such people ?
@sechel
@CS
@Lostspark
@menachem shmeiYou keep on claiming that habad critics are motsi shem ra ?
The following I saw with my own eyes:
a habad truck with
right beside a picture of their rebbiRebbe, Advisor ,Leader ,Prophet, Redeemer, God. [!!]
????
@damoshe
Good Idea.#sechel
lol
what makes berger a rabbi , you ask ??One hundred percent sure that , would dr berger state that MMS is mashiach , he would be lauded as one of the most influential rabbanim in the MOZ world …..
.
?
@sechel
I find it difficult to conduct a serious discussion with you because half of the time you don’t understand my point and the other half you do not explain what it is you are reacting about and even then, its hard to understand what you are attempting to say.re the gdolims stance re habad-
I did not read Dr bergers book itself , but I did see the haskama of Rav A Feldman Rosh Yeshiva of Baltimore Yeshiva and Member of Moetset of America dated 4 Tamuz 5764.
Where he writes about the fallacy of the habad mashiach charade.
And continues about the prevalence of praying to, instead of to God – to the late habad leader [a’l]
Whereafter he writes [in free translation]
‘It is befitting to whoever whose forefather stood at Har Sinai, to wallow in earth that such is occurring to our own brothers and sisters,
AND KOL SHEKEN that everyone should do whatever physically possible that those FALSEHOODS should not be spread and / or accepted by the temimim of Klal Yisrael.HaShem Imha Gibor HaHayil [addressing Dr Berger]
May your sincere words have an influence and let us all be zoche to meet the TRUE redeemer
[signature]
.@CS
Its time that you got off this ‘high horse’ about ‘asking’ habad people.Its overtime and we [klal israel] are waiting for answers which are not forthcoming .
Why should we be deemed responsible [since you count yourselves as part of us] for laughable and refuted theories which are self contradictory and change according to convenience ?And which are motsi shem ra on the emuna amitit which we received from sinai ?
Why did our forefathers keep to the emet with such obstinacy and such sacrifice in the face of the entire known world just to have our emuna tehora reduced to mere jokes ?These are the [painful] issues at stake here .
Not kosher meals in Mozambique.
And not whether habad people are nice people.
And not whether the hasidim were right 200 years ago in their defense against their detractors.Those issues are totally IRRELEVANT in the present discussion.
We would like answers and we will not be pacified with ‘apple orange’ answers.
Klal Yisrael deserves ‘apple apple’ [amiti] answers.If you would deign to supply REAL answers , we are ready to listen ….
@qwerty
I don’t know if you read Dr. Berger’s book but he spoke extensively about the refusal of Gedolim to do anything despite all the evidence. He said that one Godol told him that we’re waiting for them to do something really bad. My guess is that they’re afraid to act because it could lead to a lawsuit and Chabad would probably win in court and in the court of world opinion.
===
I am not privy to dr bergers discussions with rabanim. So it is hard to comment.
But what IS clearly in the public’s domain is the public statements of many rabanim about habad .
Whether it is from the litvish side or the satmar side or the sefaradi side.
Boy are they strong statements ….They are clear warnings that some really uncomfortable things are developing in habad.
The only step they have not taken [yet] and I seem to understand that’s what you are alluding to ….
is the fact that no one has paskened [yet] that their edut for gittin vakidushin is invalid , which would have MAJOR repercussions in regard to mamzerut and yichus.Which shows that , when push comes to shove , they did not classify them [at least as a group] as apikorsim and kofrim.
Its interesting that rav shach limited his public anti habad statements to the time when their leader was healthy and functioning. There are no public ststements on record from his last stroke and onwards , around pesach time in 1992.
That seems to indicate that rav shachs impetus for his anti habad statements were more based on future based concerns re where a healthy and functioning habad leader could potentially take us .Whereas now we are dealing with the fallout of the hasidims theological shenanigans .
Which could also mestasise and who knows where that would end ?Whenever you debate a xtian missionary the discussion goes, more or less :
Xtian : ‘proof1’ – our rebuttal1
‘proof2’ – rebuttal2
‘proof3’- rebuttal3After a few repetitions of the same pattern
the missionary exclaims
I won !
See, I brought ten proofs.Now dear reader : Is habad any different in this regard ?
lemaskanah
whats behind the guy with a truck openly stating
Rebbe, Advisor ,Leader ,Prophet, Redeemer, God. [!!]
This guy ‘s being literal . or not ?
Nu what s behind this ? Atsmut umehut betoch haguf , or not ?
The silence is deafening here.
….
@sechel
outcome of the meeting was the message that everyone should know – without making waves [that was in 1967] – that habad is going onto the wrong path.I did not make it up. dvarim kehavayatan .
Point to be taken : it did NOT start in 1988 .
Far from it.
—-You and most other habadi’s are a living anachronism . The only hasidim who still relive the mahloket of the gra and hasidim over 200 yrs ago.
This is done and dusted. Get over it .There is no connection between the two sides then and the 2 sides now.
The issue now centers on your leaders personality and the mad cult around it .
That wasn’t the issue then at all.
@lostspark
We have a klal in halacha – whenever there is a mahloket between a dentist and troops in armored vehicles , the Halacha follows the troops ,irrespective what the svara is and irrespective of whether there are re’ayot in any direction, for sure if there are flags on top of the vehicles .@lost spark
Lol.Maham Shilo [for the uninitiated -an acronym for melech hamashiach sheyihyeh la’olam va’ed]
claimed R’ Shachs tfillin is pasul.Habad ‘s pikachim use that as PROOF [?!] that Rav Shach were actually pasul . [actually heard this myself from a habad hasid]
Hence we have PROOF that Rav Shach was wrong for calling worldwide attention to habad’s deviations.
They call this “irrefutable logic which we have no answer to” …..
No more needs to be said.
.@Menachem Shmei
is being moche on the grounds of Bizuy Talmidei hahamim.Laudable.
At first glance.
But limited to the level Kvod Talmidei Hahamim displayed at the leader of Habad hasidims farbrengen on purim 1956.Ma’ase Rav. [leshitat menahem] .
Anything similar to the bizayon exhibited there is obviously permitted.
…..
.
My point was that it was not spoken about much, until it was released in newspaper articles filled with quotes and snippets taken out of context (or worse…) to make Lubavitch look bad to boost the political campaigns of the late 80s…
[shmei to yb]
—-
The so called ‘political campaigns of the late eighties’ you are referring to , probably allude to the establishment of Degel in the Israeli elections of 1988 or 1989.You have it upside down here .
Degel’s establishment was a REACTION to habads theologically losing its way , and the inability of those concerned to mount a public protest , due to the concentration of power in the hands of habads protectors.
THE CONCERN ABOUT HABADS WAYS PRECEDED THIS ELECTION CYCLE BY MANY YEARS , IF NOT DECADES.
And was a CAUSE of the split. Not the other way.Again , another indication of the failure of habad apologists of grasping the seriousness of the issue at hand.
I myself remember hearing [in the early eighties] , from a mekor ne’eman that R Salamon zatsal [mashgiah of BMG] , convened a closed meeting in 1967[!] about his concern about the utterances of the habad leader .
[yb to shmei]1) If this is even true, do we know for a fact that they discussed this sicha, which was said 17 years earlier? If yes, why did they only wake up about it now?
If it was 1967, it is more reasonable to assume that they were discussing the shocking and disturbing chiddush “שלא ראו אבותינו” of the Rebbe encouraging chassidim to put tefillin on non-frum Jews 😲 (which began that year in connection with the war).
[shmei to yb]
—–
Shmei’s flippant response here shows that he [nor did any of the other habad apologists] has not understood the nature of this discussion.
He and the other supporters still think that this is some version of teenage banter centered on support for competing sports teams.It is not.
This is a dead serious conversation and they have not grasped the seriousness of the substantial allegations .
R Salamon wasnt a little child and he voiced serious concerns about habad’s theology and the dangerous turns it was making ,travelling towards a personality cult direction, away from klal yisraels and its own tradition.Thats the substance of the issue .
Not newspapers and gimmicks. Not some supposed bemeizid falsifications .
Or alleged mean spirited misinterpretations of habad ,rooted in supposed personal vendettas.Serious concerns by serious people.
To be addressed in a serious and satisfactory manner.
@Shmei
I myself am witness to a habad truck adorned with a picture of their leader with the following inscription underneath
Rebbe, Advisor ,Leader ,Prophet, Redeemer, God.Now ,with all honesty , where did this guy get his inspiration from ?
Not from this atsmut umehut rubbish ?
And what is this guy’s kavana exactly ? Also non literal ?
Come On ….
You can pull the wool over my eyes once , twice , but not more.
I remember myself going along naively with habads reassurances that their leader ABSOLUTELY disavows being mashiach ,disavows promoting himself as mashiach etc.
Supposedly it was only a few BT ignorant meshuga’im who didn’t know any better, who promoted his messiahship.Now with the benefit of hindsight [and a few more maturing years] I have come to realisation who was really being “ignorant” .
It was me.Sorry , but habad lost their hezkat ne’emanut when it comes to those matters of theology.
Hi
are there still posts to be published ?@shmei
you quote Rashbi speaking about himself -from zohar.
It is clear that he is referring to the NON LITERAL MEANING of being davuk to God . Not as God Himself chvsh.The point I make is : you cannot compare texts dealing with connectedness to God with other texts which discuss God Himself .
So again – ALL those texts and quotes from R Bachay etc are totally IRRELEVANT .
As continuation
There was a decades long deliberate drip-fed, dual language brainwash going on during the last 8 decades ,leading untold unsuspecting temimim who were genuinely thirsty for dvar hashem to magnify and exaggerate the gadlut of their leader to unimaginable proportions.
It is clear that the rebbi of habad hasidim quenched his hasidim’s thirst .
But he did it with a mix of genuine and bogus torah teaching coupled with a slow but persistent indoctrination of his own supremacy over all other torah leaders over the generations. Leading to the unfortunate result of many many of OUR OWN BROTHERS AND SISTERS, misguided temimim, who, even while staying within the confines of Orthodoxy, are harboring a xtian like belief in their leader., AND ARE EDUCATING their future generations to a yahadut BASED on that belief.These are the stark facts , whether on likes them , or not.
Whether one is sufficiently removed from habad in order to be able to notice them ,or not.
[After all -kol hanega’im adam ro’e huts mi nig’ei atsmo]Just open the Chumash. Did you see chassidim complaining about the Rebbe the way Jews complained about Moshe? Caze clozed.
They were the misnagdim 😉
You had some Jews against Moshe and others extremely devoted.
Think about Yehoshua, Kalev, the Leviim, etc.
[shmei]
——————
No , the leader of habad is NOT the rebbi of the mitnagdim , whereas ALL JEWS in the midbar WERE talmidim of Moshe . They accepted the Torah from him , they learnt it by him.Another example of habad misinformation.
@Shmei
As introduction –this is NOT personal against you,
is NOT personal against Habad hasidim either.
This is NOT sin’at hinam , —– simply because there is no sin’a at all.I have NO preconceived notions against habad , nor do I have any grievances against habad.
Aderaba – I LIKE habad hasidim.
But – facts ARE facts , and evidence counts.
So :
A1] One cannot be naive . Otherwise you turn into a “useful idiot”.
It is clear [without fact checking your claim when this atsmut toch haguf rubbish was said] that the future leader of habad is [more than] interested in the success of his future endeavor of leading his hasidim. That goes without saying and is obvious to anyone.A2] Just to remember, there were 2 understandings [according to the habad defense here] ,
One: the LITERAL MEANING that God resides in a guf . This IS God.[a’l] our Creator . Who continues to be Manhig lehol HaBru’im
Two: The NON LITERAL MEANING that the tsadiq connects himself so strongly to God that legodel dibuko, we could stick a title to him AS IF he would be God.To Anyone learning those early sfarim It is clear that the No’am Elimelech, R Bachay ,Minhat El’azar are referring to the second NON LITERAL MEANING
Thats why no one went crazy when those sfarim wrote what they wrote.
With the [late] leader of the habad hasidim , however, it is a totally different story. I myself remember hearing [in the early eighties] , from a mekor ne’eman that R Salamon zatsal [mashgiah of BMG] , convened a closed meeting in 1967[!] about his concern about the utterances of the habad leader .
So it is not true to say like shmei would have us believe
“no one went crazy until 1989.”They went crazy already in 1967 [and in Israel even earlier]
I am witness to habad truck adorned with a picture of their leader with the following inscription underneath
Rebbe, Advisor ,Leader ,Prophet, Redeemer, God.you cannot ignore the different language employed by their leader , different to ALL OTHER rebeim and rabbanim in this generation re his/shvers greatness
AND the different RESULTS engendered in his followers . Again – different to all other followers in other communities in our generation.
Both the language and the results are very different . This is a deliberate attempt at engendering a different result .
Think about this carefully .
@shmei @sechel and all other metaharei hasherets
Not zohar and not noam elimelech and not minhat el’azar and not the rebbi from ropshiytzA] none of them said anything about themselves, always about their rebbeim with no implication about themselves
B] there was no personal gain whatsoever to be had , for the proclaimant.
C] proof in the pudding – none of their followers interpreted what they said in any way different to the explanation offered
i.e. that they were davuk to havayehD] It had no impact whatsoever on their own followers re their followers veneration of themselves
whereas in habads case
A] it is clear that his remark about atsmut umehut had intended implications about himself
B] Equally clear that there was personal gain for the proclaimant
C] habad followers interpreted it NOT like the no’am elimeleh’s explanation of dvekut , rather like the pashtut
D] habad veneration of their leader excels by far any other veneration of hasidim/talmidim of their rebbi/leader
yb
@lostspark
quoting qwerty:“ The Chazakah is that all Lubavitchers are idolaters.”
“ I didn’t say that all Lubavichers are idolaters.”
———————–
lostspark attacking qwerty:
Which is it buddy? Is only Lubavitchers at your ChaBaD house that aren’t idol worshippers?
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Why is the first part of your yr msg a necessary contradiction ?
Never heard of hazaka saying one thing and the metsius could be oppposite ?@lostspark
quoting qwerty:“ The Chazakah is that all Lubavitchers are idolaters.”
“ I didn’t say that all Lubavichers are idolaters.”
———————–
lostspark attacking qwerty:
Which is it buddy? Is only Lubavitchers at your ChaBaD house that aren’t idol worshippers?
============================================================================
Why is the first part of your yr msg a necessary contradiction ?
Never heard of hazaka saying one thing and the metsius could be oppposite ?@lostspark
If I am correct , then we will never hear about this debate having any connection to sin’at hinam any more
Not from you and not from any other habad apologizer.
No difference whether qwerty or anyone else answers or doesn’t answer sechels or any other habad apologists claims.This is not sin’at hinam . These are totally legit questions to put to anyone who attempts to
1] completely take over the mainstream Judaism all over the globe
2] change old age Judaism and to remake it chvsh in its own problematic image.
.
.