yankel berel

@sechel
“There was no mesorah to keep yidden away from haskala – before haskala appeared .
Simply because it did not exist.”
[yb to sechel]
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Besides for moshiach, that you need a mesorah, please explain why?
[sechel to yb]
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Simple .
CS keeps on repeating on these pages that ‘Mashiach coca cola meshigaas’ whereby we are enjoined to search for the most ‘suitable mashiach candidate in our eyes’ and then popularize acceptance of the individual person who won the contest, as mashiach by the masses , is an age old custom practiced in many communities along the ages.

Whereas in fact, these ideas are totally newfangled inventions by modern habad.
There is no source for those ideas in traditional judaism , nor were these ideas ever put in practice in any time in jewish history.

We have a klal anyone who departs from mesorah should bring proof.

Please Do not sell us now your lokshen torah that your last rebbi IS mashiach , which is a riculous premise, to say the least.
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@smerel
According to Menachem Porush, Rav Schach was actually from the more resistant members of the Moetzes to joining Begin’s coalition. He insisted he would only do so if there was no chance of Shimon Peres making a coalition anyway. Because Shimon Peres had consistently opposed drfting Yeshiva Bochurim over the years and Rav Schach felt the Charieidi world owed him hakoras hatov
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Don’t think this is accurate.
RShach had actually a very negative view of Peres.
He even refused to meet him during the eighties and nineties.
As opposed to Rabin who did agree to meet.

@sechel

sechel to arso

amazing can you translate it into English or you just say mashiach and decided it refers to chabad?
You are misnabe about moshiach the same way we are you say he’s not the rebbe.
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Arso – baruch shekivanti.
Already in the early nineties – before habads last u turn regarding mashiach min hachaim, , I connected This quote of sefer hasidim to the habad leader.

When the habad rebbi was crowned as a navi [or rather he crowned himself as a navi], based on his [inaccurate] prediction that nothing bad will going to happen to all yoshvei EY during the gulf war, I was already wondering , what could bring a previously respected [albeit controversial] person to make such bizarre proclamations , which in case that they do not materialize, the proclaimant stays with permanent egg on their face , in the face of the whole world.
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This sefer hasidim is one possible explanation for this phenomenon.
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@avirah
Not the gerrer rebbe allowed . The Moetset allowed it.
Without any extenuating circumstances.
No one made a fuss at the time about government participation. Besides those who were against behiroth, they made a fuss about the behiroth.
When giyus banot came up , aguda resigned from the gov in protest.

By the way, Rav Shach claims that when he spent a lot of time with the Brisker Rav during his final illness , the Rav agreed to his approach of being mishtatef in the governing of the medina.
So much for the protests from the brisk side.
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@sechel
is that the only line of tnaya you know? see gemarah and rambam what is a min and an apikores. not keeping tznius dosent make someone an apikores, nor does saying the rebbe is moshiach, making fun of a talmid chachum makes someone an apikores.
and the rambam clearly says that people who were raised a certain way these halachos dont apply too, and the chofetz chaim also speaks about this that because of this these halachos dont apply
simply the tanya is coming to explain dovid hamelech, not tell you how to act today, (thats why its in brackets) vda”l
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Appreciate your typical habad answer.
They all seem follow the same script.

Attack the questioner. [ is that the only line of tnaya you know?]

Change the subject. [see gemarah and rambam what is a min and an apikores. not keeping tznius dosent make someone an apikores, nor does saying the rebbe is moshiach, making fun of a talmid chachum makes someone an apikores.
and the rambam clearly says that people who were raised a certain way these halachos dont apply too, and the chofetz chaim also speaks about this that because of this these halachos dont apply]

Give a non answer. [simply the tanya is coming to explain dovid hamelech, not tell you how to act today, (thats why its in brackets]
———————-

Lets ignore the first two points and concentrate on the [non]answer.

Tanya asks on his previous principle where he states a Jew [i.e. US] is meant to have also love and also hate towards a sinner. How does that fit with the pasuk of tahlit sin’a , where David hamelech is SHOWING US that the proper approach is hate only , without love.

To summarize , we have conflicting directives for US , is it love plus hate, or is it hate only ?

Answer of the Tanya is that it depends which type of sinner is it , the apikores type of sinner or the ma’amin type of sinner.

The apikores type the ‘only hate’ approach applies FOR US.
The ma’amin type of sinner ‘the ‘love-hate’ type approach applies FOR US.

That is the pshat for any unbiased learner of Tanya . This is plain obvious.

If pshat would be like sechel and all other habad apologists who are biased against the pashute pshat, why doesn’t tanya answer the question by saying the pasuk is talking about david hamelech and not for us ??

Al korchach that both his previous principle AND this pasuk are meant to be taken as directives FOR US.
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@hakatan
Regarding the Chareidim in the Zionist parliament, that is halachically almost-impossible (read Rav Reuven Grozovsky’s biayos haZman). And according to the Satmar Rav and others, it’s severely prohibited.
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It is more than ‘possible’…..
Haredim in Israeli Parliament is not only possible , but accepted halachic practice dating back to the very first Parliament in 1949.
This is supported by the overwhelming majority of Poskim ,Rabanim and Rashei Yeshivot in EY and in in Huts La’arets, not only as ‘permitted’, but as a Chov Gamur and as a Mitsva.

Some Kana’im do not participate , but this has no bearing on accepted halachic practice , as mentioned.

@avirah
That’s not only satmar. The rabbonim who backed away from the major israel rally a few months ago also said that demanding things from America is not the way we behave in galus.
[avirah]
——————-
Reminder- Discussion here was ,whether satmar shitah is being used for withholding arms , or not .
Whether satmar could ‘ve publicly rejected usage of their shita for blocking arms shipments.
And whether withholding arms is an issue of pikuach nefesh.
Resulting in satmar carrying responsibility for p/n.

That was the discussion.

There was no discussion about joining demo’s , nor about ‘demanding’ anything.

Now to your new point. Which rabbanim said exactly what, please ?
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@avirah
Agudah doesn’t speak out when it’s cast wrongfully in the media either, and neither does mizrachi or zionist organizations. Your request of them is petty.
[avirah]
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this was not ‘the media’.
This was the SENATE MAJORITY LEADER.
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You can rest assured that any of the mentioned organizations would speak up if they were misrepresented by one of the foremost officials in the country . bifrat if it would be nogea to p/n.

Your defense of them is laughable.

@hakatan
Non frum zionists could turn their state and its army into an idol. But frum Jews who serve in the Army can do so without turning the State nor the Army into an idol.

It is true that with young and impressionable recruits it is easier to shove it down their throats .

But this is not universal. Not at all.

There are plenty of haredim who went thru the Army and emerged with their emuna intact.
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@AAQ
Not sure how contemporary science figures in this discussion.
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@avirah
Yankel, the “who started it” is just as childish as when kids get into a fight. Both sides can point to an earlier point where there were attacks or aggression; it’s not clear at all who started it,
[avirah]
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This is not a playground squabble. This was a discussion about contravening 3 Shevuot , al hatsad that they apply lema’ase.

You stated that 300 villages in the hands of the Israelis contravenes the Shevuot. Whereas the fact that they are in Israeli hands is a direct outcome of real Arab attacks and threats to repeat the Mongol Massacres chvsh.
The Israeli’s proclaimed their medina when the Mandate expired. If the Arabs would have kept within their allotment under the UN Partition Plan of 1947 , the Israeli’s would too.

Remember , the Israeli’s accepted Partition. The Arabs did not, they aimed to drive the Jews into the sea.

Pikuach nefesh is docheh the shevuot. That was the point.

@haleivi

Fact is that satmar preaching for dismantlement of Medina has been used by Senate Majority Leader as rationale [or excuse] for withholding arms in certain circumstances.

Withholding arms from israel is pikuach nefesh.

Pikuach nefesh on Satmars account.
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@katan
…. the Zionists started the war against the Arabs (and British) long before 1947. The “Partition Plan” came much later after the Zionists invaded against the wishes of the Jews and also lihavdil the British and Arabs ….
[katan]
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You seem to forget that one cannot misrepresent facts [it is a three letter word in English starting with an L] even letsoreh kana’ut .

‘The zionists’ encompass many groups . Some fought the British, some did not.
The hagana , the labor zionists , between 1917 and 1948 [the years of British rule] ,did not, except for a short period between October 1945 and August 1946.
The etsel and the lehi , the revisionists did.
So much for the facts.
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The zionists did not ‘invade’. They did not conquer EY.
They came to live and work there.
Some came legally, with British permission, some came illegally, without British permission [like Rav Wosner z’l].
So much for the facts.
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They did not come against the wishes of the Jews.
The overwhelming majority of the Jews wanted and explicitly petitioned the British for unfettered Jewish immigration to EY.
So much for the facts.
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All those facts are easily verifiable , as verifiable as a simple letter in karyane de’igreta …..
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@avira
They also took over 300 arab villages. Some by force, like deir yassin (whether or not this was a military campaign or an intentional slaughter is anyone’s guess at this point) and others were because the Arabs fled the armies.
[avira]
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1] That was after the arabs started a war against the yidden.
Had the arabs accepted the 47 partition plan like the yidden did , then they would have still been there.

2] Don’t forget the yiddens villages in gushe etsyon , the old city in j-m , in hevron, etc taken by the arabs ?

3] What with all the yidden in arab lands, their houses and their property , forcibly confiscated by arabs ?

Could that be considered ‘payment’ for lost property in ey ?
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@avirah
chairs and mehitsah were not allowed at the kosel.

An internal meeting of dati leumi educators has determined that around 30 % of their youth go OTD because of IDF enlistment , and they resolved that price is a worthwhile one , since it is being paid for the defense of the State.

It is clear that service of yeshiva boys in the IDF has a dramatic effect on their yiddishkeit. To argue otherwise is simply unrealistic.
There are many elements within the government and the IDF who would love to ‘reform’ and ‘reeducate’ the haredim.
Forced Service for haredi youth in the IDF is an ideal tool for them.

This might be a case of metu echav machmat milah where one is exempt from a mitsvah because of tragic precedents.
This is not a blanket exemption, however.
There are cases where this heter would not apply .

How to manage such a delicate situation while we are in galut between our misguided and sometimes hatefilled brothers , is a an unenviable task better left to ziknei gdolei torah veyirah.
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@ujm
You conveniently forget the stated aim of the Arabs in 67 ‘to drive all the Jews into the sea’.’
Or the promise of the Secretary of the Arab League that the “Mongol Massacres will pale in comparison” to what will happen chvsh after the Arab victory.
The 67 War was an existential one .
The conquest of the Shtahim are also existential.
So is the retreat from those Shtahim an existential question.
Where considerations of pikuach nefesh are paramount.
Before any question of [possibly binding] considerations of 3 shevuot.

@ujm [and all other satmar apologists out there].
Lema’aseh satmar makes believe that the shevuot are binding on everyone.

Avne nezer clearly disagrees and thus explains their hashmata from yad and mehaber.
I have not heard anyone from satmar address this avne nezer and how klal yisrael could be blamed for following one of its most respected poskim ?

When the Messiah of all mankind died, some 60k people attended the funeral.
When R moshe Feinstein died [some important snag rabbi] died some 300k people attended.
When R shlomo z Auerbach died [another snag rabbi] some 600k people attended
When R ovadia died some 900k – 1 million attended.

Lesson to be taken.
Mainsteam yhudim may attend habad services once in a while , but still know clearly who they rever as a gadol be yisrael

edited 

satmar are mamash yehidim in the way they portray the 3 oaths as one of the 13 ikarei emuna.
All the other groups and ways of thinking in klal yisrael , even if they are scathing against the medina , do not give such prominence to the 3 oaths .
The problem is that satmar propagates the 3 oaths lehalacha peshuta umuskemet, as if there is no controversy in the kadmonim about the legitimacy of the 3 oaths lehalaha.

They claim that participation in israeli elections is yehareig ve’al yavor [chvsh].
Tantamount to taking part in Merida against Shamayim.

Nevertheless when looking fo shiduhim for their own kids , they themselves made shiduchim with those rebbeish families who go and advise others to go the behiroth.

Seems like satmar kana’ut is not a clear and dry halaha issue.
Otherwise how do they make those shiduhim
Never

@avirah
I meant sabotaging trains to Auschwitz as in Jewish partizans doing the job themselves – not through a government.
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And – you omitted any reaction to my question :
Attacking SS ‘soldiers’ in order to save Jews ,even without hitlers permission , is that against gezeirat galut ?

@sechel
Thanks for an honest and positive answer.

Mashiach promotion Is totally new and not part of any habad mesorah.

Good to know for when CS will claim that this is old stuff , done everywhere and in all types of generations and communities.

Good to know for ourselves when we remember the decades of repeated official habad denials that they are harboring any type of mashiach aspirations for their own movement and their own leader.

For the record.
The ponevezher rav flew the flag because of shlomo shel malhut.
much like he would fly the union jack in britain and the stars and stripes in the usa.

There is no record at least as far as I know about not saying tahanun on Yom Haatsmaut.
In his yeshiva they do say tahanun on Yom haatsmaut. They said when the rav was alive and afterwards when his son R avraham was the nasi of the yeshiva, and they still do now.
In both ‘branches’.
In r tzv markovits’ yeshiva and in r eliezer kahanemans yeshiva.

@CS
It’s only getting worse as the decades pass so until the Rabbinic leadership puts a full halt to it, all the justifications and arguments in the world won’t make it any more palatable.”

I’m sorry this bothers you, but meshichism can never be shut down, as what the Rabbonim think hashkafically cannot override the clear printed sichos of the Rebbe,
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The only way forward , if so , is for the habad rabbinic leadership to open up a no holds barred discussion of their leaders personality.
How , even a great person , who had a lot to offer [in his hasidim’s eyes], is not infallible .

Not infallible , meaning that not everything emanating from him, is Gods Word mamash.
I know many people who we can learn from , but not every word of theirs is Gods Word.

This is not phitat kavod for their leader. He was human. And prone to mistakes. Does that mean that his followers cant learn from him ? Absolutely not.

Educating the next generation of habad children and newly minted BT’s is this vein , would a TREMENDOUS boon for klal yisrael, besides being much closer to accuracy and fact.

Hi did you get my posts ?
We get your posts, we also read them and approve them. Sometimes it takes more than the 20 minutes you wait before you ask. Sometimes it’s even hours. But yes, we get your posts.