yankel berel

@avirah
if it would be that kind of situation [i.e. threat of genocide], the satmar rov would have no problem cooperating with whoever is available to save jewish lives….
———————————-
Highly doubt that .
Rhetoric I hear from Satmar quarters is that mere existence of the medina is a contravention of 3 averot hamurot and is yehareig veal yaavor , no limit on the number of those ‘yehareg’s’ ….

Even pikuach nefesh is not matir to be drafted in the tsava.

That is very obvious in all their statements.
edited 

So , no.
satmar rave WOULD HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM cooperating with the medina .
.

@avirah

Yankel, the zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own – that’s different than the Nazis. Plus, there’s no active genocide in eretz yisroel – if it would be that kind of situation, the satmar rov would have no problem cooperating with whoever is available to save jewish lives
[avirah to yb]
—————————
1] Zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own ….
This seems to be the one of the most incomprehensible arguments I ‘ve ever heard.
Will Hatsole also operate under this assumption?
If someone causes himself harm, Hatsole is not coming ???

Its your fault , you created the problem , fix it yourself. Can you in your wildest dreams hear them saying this and refuse to come ??
Why is EY any different ?

Heard of the Lav of Lo Taamod Al Dam Reacha . But – Have not heard of any exemption even remotely close to your argument.

2] …Plus, there’s no active genocide in eretz yisroel –

Utterly incomprehensible.

If not for the IDF , Hashem Yishmor , there would be an active genocide.
Al pi derech hateva , the only thing standing in the way of a genocide is the IDF.

The most recent vivid example is the hundreds of innocent victims ahenu bnei yisrael, who were murdered like cattle and stray dogs by vicious barbarians who cannot wait to repeat the same on to all yehudi inhabitants [hashem yishmor]

Dal mehachi the IDF , you have a full fledged genocide right around the corner.
Remember the Secretary General of the Arab League proclaiming, without any shame whatsoever, in front of the whole world : “The Massacres of the Mongols will pale in comparison.”

Reality is quite pesky , you cannot wish it away …..
.

Yankel, if by collaboration you mean joining the government, then no, the satmar rov holds that’s assur.

If you mean on an individual level, like a business partner, then it’s no different than a goy and you can.

If you’re referring to working with them to save jews during the Holocaust, then nobody every said that’s not allowed.
——————————-
Saving Jews in Europe is mutar .
Saving Jews in EY is assur ?
Ma nishtana ?

@ujm
du host nish bessr tsu ton vi onfangen aza topic ?
vu iz dain haham enav berosho ?

@sechel.

You came with an explanation [only King David – not us].
Remember ?

I asked a question on your explanation.
You ignored the question.
Remember ?

So the question stands , no ?

@avirah
As well, he cooperated with the Zionists to leave Hungary.
[lernt to avirah]
———————-
You did not answer to this one . Is it Mutar to cooperate with Zionists according to vayoel moshe ?

@sechel
hope you are more accurate in your learning and your medame milta lemilta than your accuracy in determining who you are talking to.

First read.
Then stop.
Think .
Then answer.

Shabat shalom

@sechel
this is one example that if you think over the question, my answer etc, you see how a bit more looking into the sugya you have your “shtarke kashe” answered
—–
דבר ברור ומפורש בתורה שהיא מצוה עומדת לעולם ולעולמי עולמים, אין לה לא שינוי ולא גרעון ולא תוספת,
Thats the lashon harambam ,sechel is quoting.

Three things can not happen to any mitsva of the torah
1] Shinuy
2] Gira’on
3] Tosefet

Sechel agrees that ,at least still in the times of hazal,, the nature of the mitsva of Talmud Torah was shakul keneged all other mitsvot .
So Sechel agrees that this mitsve as it was given by HKBH to Moshe , WAS shakul keneged all other mitsvot .

Sechel also says [and here he seems to be supported by the pashute pshat in tanya] that at a certain moment, there was a ‘change’ , and this mitsve ‘lost’ its privileged status , is ‘demoted’ and from now and onwards it is only a ‘regular’ mitsva , not shakul keneged all other mitsvot.

Sechel wants us to believe that this change and this demotion , is not included in the definition of Shinuy, nor the definition of gira’on.

Nu , Nu …..

@aaq
Naive maybe, but were he to succeed, hundreds of thousands of people would be alive including thousands of Jews, and with immeasurable impact on world politics, including Israel. Might have been enough justification.
=======================
Naive. That is exactly the description of someone who thinks that motzei shabbat would be too late for his “peace mission”.

@AAQ
True, some of the saved Polish children from religious families were forced to go to anti-religious kibbutzim – not so much because kibbutzim wanted to re-educate them…..
==============================
Come on.
This was a direct attempt at shmad.
Not for any remuneration.
There was a concerted effort to shmad those children.

@sechel
You still owe me an answer on this one ….
—————-
Tanya asks on his previous principle where he states a Jew [i.e. US] is meant to have also love and also hate towards a sinner. How does that fit with the pasuk of tahlit sin’a , where David hamelech is SHOWING US that the proper approach is hate only , without love.

To summarize , we have conflicting directives for US , is it love plus hate, or is it hate only ?

Answer of the Tanya is that it depends which type of sinner is it , the apikores type of sinner or the ma’amin type of sinner.

The apikores type the ‘only hate’ approach applies FOR US.
The ma’amin type of sinner ‘the ‘love-hate’ type approach applies FOR US.

That is the pshat for any unbiased learner of Tanya . This is plain obvious.

If pshat would be like sechel and all other habad apologists who are biased against the pashute pshat, why doesn’t tanya answer the question by saying the pasuk is talking about david hamelech and not for us ??

Al korchach that both his previous principle AND this pasuk are meant to be taken as directives FOR US.
—————————————-
Am still waiting …
.

@pekak [to square]
… with your constant assumption that you can refute his [satmar rovs] entire sefer without having absorbed it from cover to cover ?
===================
There is no need to absorb satmar ravs sefer from cover to cover .

One can safely rely on the overwhelming majority of Gdolei Yisrael who were familiar with his sefer from cover to cover , and still disregarded his conclusions.

He was a very great man, but his shitah was not accepted .
This is a fact.
.

@simcha
If the army is so understaffed that Dati Leumi talmidim in Mechina and Hesder are being pulled out early…
—-
Don’t really like challenging people like you , but

is the reason they are pulled out early because they are understaffed and there is no other way besides pulling them out early,
or
is it that they do not care so much about pulling them out , so out of the various options they might have at their disposal, this was the easiest one , so why not .
.
This reminds me a bit of PM Bennet, a ‘religious’ Jew [remember him?] traveling on shabbat to make peace between Russia and Ukraine.
If he is mehalel shabat for it , imagine how important it must be ….

hi did you receive my post ?

@aaq

1] Without political Zionism, the Arabs and the British could/ would have been more accommodating to Jewish immigration . Who can know for sure but there is logic to it.

2] Even if not , the price paid was very ,very high. Too high.

@sechel

this tiferet yisrael is definitely not ‘simple pshat’ in a mishna.
It goes straight against the rama , shach and accepted halahik practice.

Rama permits/ mandates to be holek in halaha on your rebbi [even rebbi muvhak – rov torato mimenu] if you have ra’yot.
Others even if it is only miSvara.
YD242:3

Kol hameharhar ahar rabo [sanhedrin 110a] comes from the pasuk where yehudim falsely ascribed to Moshe rabenu [who provided ‘man from heaven’ as food for the dor hamidbar], that this ‘man’ has the non-existent attribute of blowing up inside one’s stomach. [rashi on humash]

In other words , making up non existing baloney as a negative for your rebbi, that falls under kol hameharhar ahar rabo.
That the rebbi made a mistake , that s not included in kol hameharhar , and is definitely possible, and is permitted to be said by the talmid. as per rama above.

Kedai to keep in mind , however, that like the rebbi is liable to make a mistake , the talmid is even more so [kal vahomer]

@simcha

@smerel
@gedolhdorah
and fellow travelers

Isn’t it ironic that davka on the issue of ‘sharing the burden’ , where the haredim are VOLUNTARILY so involved in .
The myriad gemahim literally thousands of them . All the gabbai’im of the countless tsdakka organisations .All the mothers of large families who are literally moser nefesh to care for them. Not to talk about hatsala , zaka , yad sarah etc. .
Thats Besides all the people who DEDICATE THEIR WHOLE LIVES TO OTHERS,
Davka on this very issue there is so much criticism.
Compare the average haredi with the average secular person . How much time and how much effort and how much of a share of their finances, is expended by each of them during a typical day on others vs oneself.

The seculars preach about altruism , but the problem is that they preach about their own type of altruism .
They are not prepared to recognize haredi altruism , it doesn’t fit in their worldview , therefore it does not exist in their minds.
So they are totally blind to it.
No wonder they are talking about entitlement attitudes.

They want a government controlled , a bureaucratically IMPOSED system of altruism .
From the top down.
THEY WANT TO CONTROL the haredim.
Thats THE issue, in my view at least.

 And , sad to say , we are getting influenced by their propaganda.
Hence our talk about ‘entitlement attitude’ in this context.
.

Will have to be some requirement for haredi service….

Based on ?

On Sh’A and poskim ?

@ujm
regarding the shtahim , Jrslm , the West Bank, and the Golan , that is a clear situation of p/n .
Which is doche the issur [if applicable] of the shevuoth.

Is there any rejoinder to this ?
.

@haleivi
satmar agrees to 4 ?
Does not seem like it.

Satmar holds that the existence itself is yehareig ve’al yaavor.
They seem to hold that 3 shevuot is doche pikuach nefesh.
Untenable , in my view.

Thats why they are happy to be used to stop arms shipments .
.

@AAQ
You might be very pleasantly surprised about the level of the yeshiva bahurim in EY .
When was the last time you talked in learning with one of them ?

@CS
“The only way forward , if so , is for the habad rabbinic leadership to open up a no holds barred discussion of their leaders personality.
How , even a great person , who had a lot to offer [in his hasidim’s eyes], is not infallible .…”
[yb]

Have you ever seen the Rambam describe the Mitzvah of Respecting Talmidei Chachamim? How if someone rebels against his Rebbe he’s rebelling against Hashem? How about rashi- even if they (leaders) say that right I’d let/ left is right, follow them…
[CS to yb]
=============
A] Rambams respecting talmidei hahamim has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the question of infallibility.
Please CS , can you own up to this one ?

B] “Rebelling against his rebbi” is mentioned in the context of answering she’elot without the Rebi’s permission or in the rebbi’s locality.
[Cf Sh’A hilhot kevod rabbo]
Not in the context of infallibility .
Sh’A permits [even mandates] to argue on one rebbi’s halahic decisions, provided it s done respectfully.
Please CS , can you own up to this one too ?

C] Al yemin shehu smol veal smol shehu yemin , the rashi you mentioned is speaking about sanhedrin hagadol in yerushalayim where it is indeed prohibited to argue against .

So – to summarize – is the leader of habad INFALLIBLE ?
The answer is a resounding NO !!!
.

To summarize –
1] The whole idea of 3 shevuot binding halaha lema’aseh today is a davar hashanuy bemahloket.

2] Even if it does apply today in a halaha binding fashion, It is very possible that the establishment of the medina does not contravene it, because of the Mandate [based on the Balfour Declaration] which required a national home and self-governing institutions in EY and the acceptance of 1947 Partition Plan in the UN.

3] Even if the establishment of the medina was against the torah, the continued existence of the medina is not.

4] Even if the continued existence is against the 3 shevuoth , which has no logic at all , its existence is still imperative because of mass pikuach nefesh which is doche the 3 shevuoth.

Since the only matter before us now is the continued existence [and not the establishment] of the medina, we can resolve that there is no inherent issur in the existence of the medina.

We have to make sure to the best of our ability that the medina should be a vehicle for torah true ideals and not chvsh the opposite.

And that it should be a vehicle to safeguard yehudim as much as possible.

Because the medina should not be an idol with the yehudim serving it.
Aderaba , the medina should be serving the yehudim , that way it will not be an idol, and it will come to its tikun.
.

@avira

@Arso
Just as a reminder , before you debate the habad apologists, please keep in mind the following :

the leader of the habad hasidim gave explicit instructions to his followers. whenever you engage in debate with people of a different persuasion , you must do so with the condition that you [the follower] in your own mind give NO CREDENCE WHATSOEVER EVEN TO THE POSSIBILITY that he might have something to tell you that you previously did not know.

That is their starting point.

When their rebbi famously told them to phiphe on the world , it was meant to phiphe on your arguments . By the mere fact that those arguments are against habad, that ITSELF is the biggest possible refutation . All other refutations they might come up with ,are simply batel umevutal [kom lei mideraba minei] and pale in comparison .

That explains [to me] this astonishing phenomenon of having a rational conversation with [supposedly] rational people , and there we keep on going round and round , and ,after all rationality , they seem totally oblivious to it .

I don’t know about you , but this kept on baffling me again and again.

They sound and seem rational and open , but on the other side seem immunized against rationality.

I must concede – their rebbi did a good job.
He transformed them exactly in to what he wanted them to be.
.

@smerel
am curious re the seven words quote from r ch shm ?
and what was the criticism about ?
and how musmach is the source ?
thanks