yankel berel

Dear reader
Please contrast CS’s actual responses [without honesty] against those with honesty. Kirchok mizrah mima’arav.

“1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?”

A tzaddik is totally in line with Hashem’s Ratzon, so his “mistakes” don’t come from yetzer hara but are also directed by Hashem (remember Aharons argument to the malach hamoves?) There is a rare scenario of a tzaddik not advancing in his avodas Hashem, and slipping to do an aveira (like Yochanan Kohen Gadol), but it would be obvious as the Posuk states ba zadon vayavo kalon.

For a regular YB to think HE knows, or anyone that didn’t top The Rebbe in yiras shomayim, knows, that The Rebbe made a mistake, because He knows better, is utter foolishness, but just arrogance and bizui TC. I hope that clarifies.

“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?”

Is there any public widely known instance of The Rebbe doing any aveira? Those who know The Rebbe say not… besides for the sheer holiness etc

“3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?”

The Alter Rebbe is widely accepted. How many tzaddikim of Tanya there are today is a different question which I cannot answer. I keep my nose out for them.

“4] Is the tsaddiq of Tanya explanation the only available one to explain the relevant ma’amarei hazal ?”

Not sure what you mean. And even if it is, it answers.

“5] If there exist other explanations , how are they more deficient in actually explaining the relevant ma’amarei hazal when compared to the Tanya’s [besides that they will not serve the habad cause]”

No one is making you become Chabad. As for me, it’s my honour and privilege.

“6] Why do you employ the condescending attitude that it is the opposite side who has ‘go and learn’ ?
Maybe it is actually YOU who should ‘go and learn’ ???”

See the answer to 1, and you’ll know why.

I will [for CS’s benefit] , attempt to fill in the answers to those simple questions in her place IF SHE WOULD BE HONEST AND HUMBLE ENOUGH to do so.

“1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?”

No , I cannot because he nowhere addresses this.
I happen to have MY OWN IDEAS about this. But they carry no more weight than that. I am not able to invoke the Tanya’s authority for them without clear proof from his words.

“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?”

No , because there is no such source to be found . Again – I and my fellow travelers happen to have OUR OWN IDEAS about this. But they carry no more weight than that. We are not able to invoke any klal yisrael wide authority for this besides that this happens to be our own subjective opinion.

“3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?”

The Alter Rebbe is widely accepted. But as this was not the question asked , the answer to the Q is , no. This concept is not widely accepted in klal yisrael outside of hasidi circles.

“4] Is the tsaddiq of Tanya explanation the only available one to explain the relevant ma’amarei hazal ?”

I understand what you mean , because I took the time to reflect on this and used my honed intellect to process this Q. To be truthful, I never looked in this direction because I was programmed to repeat everything I am told by certain people without any of my own critical thinking.

“5] If there exist other explanations , how are they more deficient in actually explaining the relevant ma’amarei hazal when compared to the Tanya’s [besides that they will not serve the habad cause]”

I don’t really know [refer to previous answer] .But my well-honed intellect tells me somehow that if there are other, better explanations to those mamarei hazal , then the authority lent to Tanya’s explanation is reduced to the Tanya himself and not to the Amora’im who said those ma’amarim.

“6] Why do you employ the condescending attitude that it is the opposite side who has ‘go and learn’ ?
Maybe it is actually YOU who should ‘go and learn’ ???”

Because my rebbi taught me in all sorts of ways ,and I internalized this very well, [I actually can feel it in my bones] that my approach and that my rebbi are way more great, and way more emet , in all aspects, than any other approaches , and any other rebeim in the whole world.
He even conditioned me [and my fellow travelers] to continue to believe that ,even in the face of overwhelming evidence and immense rationality clearly pointing to the opposite.
He , therefore , even taught us to “phaiph” on said evidence and rationality.
So, as a result, said evidence and rationality are totally worthless, when it comes to convincing me of anything different to what I have been brainwashed to believe.

So obviously – it the other side who should ‘Go and Learn’ ….
.
Not me …..
.

“3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?”

The Alter Rebbe is widely accepted …
————–
That was not the question . The Q was whether the concept of Tsadiq of Tanya is accepted outside of hasidi circles .
And I can tell you.
I know the ‘outside of hasidi circles’ better than a chabad shluha who is not interested in oxen goring people …

And I can confirm – THIS CONCEPT OF THE BA”AL HATANYA IS NOT ACCEPTED outside hasidi circles.

You are simply NOT QUALIFIED to answer this question and your honesty – if there is any left- should compel you to agree.

“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?” [YB to CS]

Is there any public widely known instance of The Rebbe doing any aveira? Those who know The Rebbe say not… besides for the sheer holiness etc [CS to YB]
———–
Your Rebbi was a controversial person. That is well established fact . There are admittedly many rabbanim who held him in high regard [in various stages of his life] but on the other hand many more rabanim are known to have criticized him on a personal level, some even very harshly so.

I think this is an accurate description of your rebbi’s reputation.

So to say axiomatically that your rebbi qualifies as a tsaddiq of tanya …. is doubtful.

To base all your ikarei emuna on that premise is like basing your investment on a 50/50 chance of total loss.

To all undecided readers of these lines I would say – hedge your bets ….

.

YB:
Only once you will be prepared to internalize that this person was a fallible human , prone to mistakes and subject his personal negi’ot, notwithstanding his many talents and mesirut nefesh, only then we will be able to see a possibility to have REAL open and honest, evidence based discussion of all of the above.
Until then we will have to suffice with shallow responses, change of topics, misplaced claims of victimhood and occasional jokes.
But not a serious discussion.
Haval.”

CS:
Apparently you never met a Tzaddik of Tanya. Sounds like the Yanuka and Modzitzer Rebbe may qualify. Go and learn.

——————————————————————-
1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?

2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?

3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?

4] Is the tsaddiq of Tanya explanation the only available one to explain the relevant ma’amarei hazal ?

5] If there exist other explanations , how are they more deficient in actually explaining the relevant ma’amarei hazal when compared to the Tanya’s [besides that they will not serve the habad cause]

6] Why do you employ the condescending attitude that it is the opposite side who has ‘go and learn’ ?
Maybe it is actually YOU who should ‘go and learn’ ???
.

@hakatan

Satmar rav vayechi is daat yachid.
Rov minyan ubinyan of gdolei yisrael disagreed with him on most of his rabid anti zionist views.

Some say that even he himself sometimes overstated his own shitah , because of the hurricane of Zionism after the war.
Now that we are much further from the war and the allure of Zionism lost most of its appeal, we don’t need this extreme rhetoric which was used in those times.

People like you, tend to view the world through this one dimensional Lense, and therefore your picture comes out crooked and unbalanced.

@CS
Not bashing you and your fellow hasidim at all.
Clearly stated that you are all wonderful and special people who try and do good .
Please do not ignore that.

But that’s not a get out of jail card for excessive person [idol/ rebbi] worship, crooked theology and successive public uturns on ikarei emuna AND your collective inability [[due to brainwash and / or lack of honesty] to face up to them.
We cannot ignore that either.

Your crooked theology has [and will further] give fuel to Xtian pretenses to make unsuspecting Jews accept the messiahship [and worse] of their discredited idol.
You [plural] have never taken all those serious issues by the horns.

You either joke about it. Or change topics.
Or pretend that an obvious non answer will do the job.

The issues mentioned in those above lines were extensively mentioned in previous threads.
With only those above mentioned responses as a result.

It seems that the source of your [plural] inability to muster anything more than the above , is your obstinate clinging to one certain persons infallibility.

Only once you will be prepared to internalize that this person was a fallible human , prone to mistakes and subject his personal negi’ot, notwithstanding his many talents and mesirut nefesh, only then we will be able to see a possibility to have REAL open and honest, evidence based discussion of all of the above.
Until then we will have to suffice with shallow responses, change of topics, misplaced claims of victimhood and occasional jokes.
But not a serious discussion.
Haval.

What’s not under discussion here is what good habad people do all around the world.
What is under discussion here is the objectionable and abhorrent belief systems which are drilled into tamimi children and youth, who totally lose the ability to think for themselves anymore.
And used to brainwash unsuspecting baalei tshuva, making them think that this ersatz coffee created from who knows what , is really a delectable drink , far surpassing real coffee.
It is high time that this fraudulent worldview should be exposed for what it really is.
So again – habad consists of truly wonderful people , all nebah victims of mass brainwash and total inability of independent torah based critical thought.

@Yashardik
There was a mistake in the previous post – so here is the fixed version.
————–
They are USING hasidut and everything else to impose their rebbi on the world.

Not the other way around.

It is obvious to anyone who observes them from close.

If their rebbi would tell them to stop hasidut learning.

Do you have a have amine that would not listen to him ?

For sure they would listen.

For sure they would stop learning hasidut

So what is their goal ?
their rebbi or learning hasidut?

Clearly it is their leader …..
Their learning hasidut drive is just a useful tool to remake their rebbi into the greatest of all mankind since creation.

The merit of truth is not because its convenient or because it ‘feels good’ or because its fuzzy … or because of any other reason.

The merit of truth is simply because it is …. the Truth .
.

@yashardik
Habad holds themselves superior to the Malachim too, even though they also learn and know hasidut.
There is NO ONE in habad who reckon the rebbi of the Malachim to be a ‘disappeared’ Mashiach , who will ‘reappear’ any moment.
Nor are they prepared to use him as an intermediary [al’p] to HKBH.
No matter the amount of hasidut he might have learnt and known in his lifetime ….

Neither is R Aron of Strashelle z’l a candidate. Notwithstanding him reputedly being a goan mamash in hasidut.
So learning hasidut is not the issue at all.

Rather this is very simple. That role is RESERVED already.

There is one God, one Torah and lehavdil elef alfei havdalot only ONE rebbe.

Although in habad the order of this last statement probably is the opposite …..

And all of us , you and me included are [allegedly] created for one purpose only – to be mekabel ol malhuto of their rebbi alenu . That is our and the whole worlds tahlit habri’ah .

Whether we or the world do or do not know it [yet] is irrelevant.

That and only that is the reason why habad considers itself superior to all of us.

@Arso
@Neville

@lostspark

Is it true that there are 2 different Qwerty’s on this thread ?

the following was posted under the name of Qwerty, on November 7 :

—————-
I think all of you just 🤣crazy to talk about Chabad,try to be beasy with mitzvot instead so much avarot.אתם בטח כולכם אוכלי חינם,לכו לעבוד במקום לנצל את הממשלה שלכם או את ישיבות שלכם ,כולכם שקרנים וגנבים,תשתפו את הפיות שלכם לפני שמדברים על חבד,תתביישו לכם ותלכו לעזאזל בעזרת השם.תלכו למות עוד הלילה.
————–

Is that the same qwerty of “checkmate fame” ?
Or a different one ?
.

@Neville

I understand that kasheh
[why RAMBAM’s words suddenly stopped being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994]
, but it always just turns into a machlokes hametzius since habad are just going to deny that they ever held that way before 1994.
—————————
It is not a machloket bemetse’ut, since they have not ever denied that they held RAMBAM as the last authoritative posek for their mashiach matters.
They have not denied their own use of RAMBAM’s YAD HACHAZAKA to further their own rebbi’s candidacy.

I vividly remember them using RAMBAM in service of their mashiach craziness.

So please, let’s start calling a spade a spade ….

@menachem
It was not a church session.
It was an outdoor ‘event’ comprising of xtian tourists in EY.
They were congregating outside a habad house which was showing a video of their rebbi which passersby were free to watch.
He was standing close to them, so he happened to overhear their comments.
I also happen know which habad house it was.

@Neville
The following was the original post [on page 21] re habad accepting / rejecting RAMBAM’s words re mashiach
————–
Habad does not reject Rambam’s criteria for Mashiach.
Not at all.
At least until a certain day in 1994, that is.
Until that day, habad was extremely busy trumpeting Rambam’s every word and how it corresponds oh so meticulously with their leader.
So, notwithstanding Shmei’s erudition, after bakashat mehila, I don’t think he will be able to furnish you [and the rest of us] with a logical explanation why Rambam’s words stopped being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994 …
————-
The question was – and still is , until some answer will somehow appear ….

why RAMBAM’s words suddenly stopped being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994 ????

That question has NOT been addressed at all, to the best of my knowledge.

Nu ???

@menachem
I am an avid reader of your comments defending habad and I have NO RECOLLECTION of any of your comments on this particular topic . Would you mind copying and paste them here ?

@ non political

You are correct, I used the apikorsut and avoda zara interchangeably.

It depends WHY this particular person believes that a tsadiq cannot make a mistake. If it is that he thinks that HKBH shields the tsadiq from a mistaken sin, then he is not an apikorus, just an am haarets . He doesn’t know the gemara.

But if he does know the gemara , and still holds by his shita that his [!] tsadiq cannot make a mistake simply because he ‘is HKBH himself’ [afra lepumayu] , and like God by definition is infallible, so too is his[!] tsadiq, infallible

That is apikorsus.

Clear and Pashut.

@non political
… ‘If He chooses to prevent someone from making a mistake He can do that’ …
=========
No one ever claimed that God cannot protect a tsadiq from sinning beshogeg.
All I said was , that THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT A TZADIQ cannot transgress the torah beshogeg , even if due to a mistake of theirs.
The tzadiq can sin by mistake , and we find holy Tanna’im , who did, as is clearly documented in Gmara.
Therefore, to argue otherwise is close to apikorsus, as there are clear guemarot saying the same.

@non political
…. one believed that Hashem is committed to guiding leaders such that they won’t make a mistake ….
———————
This is against a famous tosefot , based on guemarot, that HKBH only safeguards tzadiqim from mistakes pertaining to food ingested into their bodies, but not on any other mistakes.
That’s how holy tana’im erred and came beshogeg to isurei de’orayta.
Infallibility belongs to God only.

Yes, it is the vast majority. .
It is logical , as that’s what their rebbi himself promoted.

@somejewiknow

Without the idf ,now, there is a mass pikuach nefesh.
You have not given ANY OTHER WAY to take away this pikuah nefesh.

So, if you cannot find another way to take away the p/n and you do not give a VALID reason not to be drafted in the idf [if they really need you] …. then you are just shofeh damim.

Shofeh damim shel Rabbim !

@qwerty
The Ibn Ezrah is in Jonah 2:1 as far as I remember. Although he doesn’t say it exactly the way I quoted him.
Have a look at the Malbim, at Radak and Metsudot.
Think it is the Malbim who clearly references the lack of air.

@philosopher
Think it was you who mentioned the issue of Jonah being in such pain [not be able the breathe] for such a long time , for 3 days ? [Same about Yaakov forever]
Cf. Rashi and other commentaries who reference hazal who were medayek in the psukim that in the beginning he was inside a male fish, and Jonah did not see a need to pray, so the male fish spit him out and when he was inside the female fish , he was uncomfortable so he started praying.
It couldn’t have been too uncomfortable inside the male fish , notwithstanding the lack of air.

@philosopher
Correct and valid.

@philosopher
So my question to you is why didn’t you tell Shmei and Arso who were arguing what the Ramban says on Rashi, why didn’t you tell them that what you told me “@philosopher Quoting RAMBAN does not convince anyone of shitat RASHI”? NOW you are saying that when I bought the complete Ramban so everyone can see exactly what the Ramban is saying?
——-
To be honest – I wasn’t following this discussion from up close as I consider it a mere distraction to the main issue. Happened to see your post so I reacted.

The main issue is habads self contradictory innovations and pretzel maneuverings , cloaked in selective and misleading quotes coupled with deceptive sugarcoated statements.
Leading to …. ?
.

@philosopher
It seems that RAMBAN and R BACHAY disagree with RASHI. They are stating their own opinion, not like RASHI.