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The multitude of Gdolei Yisrael did not agree with satmar rav .
They ALL saw and read Vayoel Moshe and still disagreed with him .
.
That should settle the matter.
.@sechel
rambam where ?
prisha siman ?@prisha siman ?
@hakatan
And to me’arat hamahpelah ? Did the Jews have access to it ?@sechel
which poskim hold its not ?
Even after half an hour after hatsot, that is ….NO ONE !
After so many times asking
sechel has not been able to mention one clear posek who authorizes birhot kr
shm and Shm’E on Shabbat more than half an hour after hatsot.
@sechel
There is no reason whatsoever not to understand.
As simple as can be.Question for you – is tanya in perek 32 from its beginning, addressing Dovid Hamelech [and kings], or addressing us [common people] ?
What’s the answer ?.
@sechel
There is no reason whatsoever not to understand.
As simple as can be.Question for you – is tanya in perek 32 from its beginning, addressing Dovid Hamelech [and kings], or addressing us [common people] ?
What’s the answer ?@sechel
There is no reason whatsoever not to understand.
As simple as can be.Question for you – is tanya in perek 32 from its beginning, addressing Dovid Hamelech [and kings], or addressing us [common people] ?
What’s the answer ?@sechel
have not received an answer yet
what is the heter to say birhat kr’sh and shm’esre shabbat after hatsot ?
why is this not a braha levatala ?question is not whether one could / should daven before hatstot with less kavana
if he cannot daven before hatsot for whatever reason- he should not daven at allplease don’t just ‘drop’ marei mekomot .
pl . Explain yourself , with clear logic.Th.
.@CS and Sechel
“After he says that one is obligated to simultaneously love and hate someone who is a sinner , Tanya goes on to ask on himself if so whats pshat in tahlit sin’ah seneitim which is quoted in masehta shabbat as requiring unqualified hate ?
Whereupon Tanya answers that this pasuk and maamar hazal are talking about an apikores who one is required to hate unreservedly.”
[yb to CS]Complete distortion. He is explaining dovid hamelechs behavior, not giving guidance to people who can every jew who does something different than them an apikores or min.
[sechel to yb]
————————————-
Correct .
Sechels ‘explanation’ [think its not his – rather its his leaders] is a COMPLETE DISTORTION .
Nowhere in this perek does Tanya talk about Dovid.
Simple pshat .
He starts of with any yehudi.
Any yehudi’s obligation re love [or hate] towards other yehudim .
Again – OUR obligation toward our fellow yehudim.
Tanya delineates OUR obligation towards sinners.
He says it should be a mixture of love and hate.
Tanya asks on said statement , which was re OUR obligation towards sinners – which consists of said mixture of love and hate : How come Dovid hamelech says tahlit sin’ah [and gm ms Shabbat uses this to OBLIGATE US] with hate and no love.
So we have a contradiction whether the correct approach FOR US is a] mixture or b] hate only.
A contradiction regarding which approach WE – US should be taking.
Whereupon Tanya answers – if he is an apikores then the approach FOR US is – hate only
if he is not an apikores , just a sinner , then the approach FOR US is a mixture of love and hate.Any neutral reader of the above . Please learn Tanya slowly for yourself , It is PLAIN and OBVIOUS.
Addition:
If sechel would be correct , why doesn’t Tanya answer simply ?
Hate only – thats for Dovid only
Mixture – thats for us.Why does he need to differntiate between apikorsim and other sinners ?
@CS
Also, I was learning kuntres Beis Rabbeinu Shebivavel, which I’ll assume you know how to find, and there was a sdei chemed in one of the footnotes saying that many yidden throughout history thought their Rebbi was Moshiach including the Arizals Talmidim. I thought you would find that interesting so I’m noting here.
[Cs to yb]
——————————————-
As usual this is nothing more than a diversionary answer.
NONE ,and I repeat none ,of the above PROMOTED their rebbi as mashiach .
PROMOTION of their leader as mashiach is a recent habad invention , never practiced by any group in Judaism, anywhere on the globe .
With the noted exception of Natan HaAzati and his despicable followers re the failed and discredited false mashiach shabtai tzvi .Thats exactly where the ‘fault lines’ between new habad and mainstream 3 thousand year old Judaism run .
We are happy to be mekabel pnei mashiach when HKBH deems it right to send him.
That was and still is the default position of klal yisraels rebeim and forefathers from time immemorial.
And klal yisrael across all its varied spiritual manhigim and various components does not seem to be inclined to give up on that time hallowed position so fast. Like they are not changing other parts of our holy mesorah.@CS
For YB: firstly, you said what I quoted in perek 32 Tanya about an apikores was incorrect. I wrote it in English, here’s the original:
וּמַה שֶּׁכָּתוּב בַּגְּמָרָא, שֶׁמִּי שֶׁרוֹאֶה בַּחֲבֵירוֹ שֶׁחָטָא – מִצְוָה לִשְׂנֹאותוֹ, וְגַם לוֹמַר לְרַבּוֹ שֶׁיִּשְׂנָאֵהוּ.
הַיְינוּ – בַּחֲבֵירוֹ בְּתוֹרָה וּמִצְוֹת,
וּכְבָר קִיֵּים בּוֹ מִצְוַת “הוֹכֵחַ תּוֹכִיחַ אֶת עֲמִיתֶךָ” – עַם שֶׁאִתְּךָ בְּתוֹרָה וּבְמִצְוֹת, וְאַף־עַל־פִּי־כֵן לֹא שָׁב מֵחֶטְאוֹ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁכָּתוּב בְּסֵפֶר חֲרֵדִים.
[CS to YB]
———————————
You are omitting the crucial part of Tanya which I quoted-
After he says that one is obligated to simultaneously love and hate someone who is a sinner , Tanya goes on to ask on himself if so whats pshat in tahlit sin’ah seneitim which is quoted in masehta shabbat as requiring unqualified hate ?
Whereupon Tanya answers that this pasuk and maamar hazal are talking about an apikores who one is required to hate unreservedly.
—————————–Katan gives the impression of being blind and deaf.
He doesn’t see the obvious pikuach nefesh straight in front of his eyes – blind r’l
He does not hear the Arabb Cry – that the “descendants of the apes and the pigs [the Jews]” will have to choose between the suitcase and the coffin.
We have every reason to take their threats at face value .Hakatan – please stop misrepresenting our holy torah !
Dina de malhuta dina in EY nowadays is a mahloket – NOT like katan wants you to believe.
Existence of the State of Israel al pi halaha ,is a mahloket – NOT like katan wants you to believe.
—-
Living in one of the other states who occupy part of EY ,is fraught with pikuach nefesh.NOT like ujm would want you to believe.
Fact is that no yehudim live there .
ALL the yehudim in that part of the world ,happen to live in Israel and not in any of those other countries.
Why is that ?
.
?
Katan purports to speak in the name of the Torah .
He is a fraud.If he would be honest ,he would quote THE FULL gamut of the Torah in an accurate way.
He doesn’t, because he is serving an idol .His idol is his brainwashed shitah.
So much for idol worship.
.@sechel
=============================
Happened to meet an old habad acquaintance on the street , and will quote him here :In habad now , whenever our rebbi quotes a tanna or amora or a rishon or a posek , it is not as if our rebbi needs the backup of these holy people. It is more like those holy people received back up from our rebbi that they were zoche that he quoted them ….
[yb to sechel]
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….. what one chabad fellow answered you ,does not represent chabads view …..[sechel to yb]
=============================
Rewind some 40 odd years .
Had a similar type of conversation with a reasonable habad person about the prevalence of habad hasidim attributing messiahship to their rebbi.
I quoted him what I heard from an individual ,serious habad person whom I met on the street.
“Our rebbi is the greatest of not only our generation but of all preceding generations and he really is mashiach .”Our reasonable habad person told me many documented incidents where their rebbi himself reacted with anger and disapproval upon those type mashiach proclamations and that the above is only the result of the hallucinary imaginations of those crazy yehidim and for sure not representative of the habad movement as a whole and that every movement has its share of crazies.
It was only those so called ‘haters’ of habad who anyway had an agenda against habad ,who chose to represent the crazies as legit habad spokespeople.
I was younger and more naive at that time and swallowed it , accepted it .
This was not one personal story .
This was emblematic.
This type of conversation was going on in many forms and ways , on the pages of newspapers , in informal mikva’ot discussions , in shtiblah and around the shalom zahor tables ….Many people were taken by this and swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
Va’ani hakatan, betoham.We all know, now, with the benefit of hindsight , who really represented habad ….
And whether it is naive to be taken by that type of answer….Once burnt , second time …..
Looked up Tsemah Tsedeq OC:3 . Its quite long. So I did not learn every word of it. But I learnt most of it and skimmed through the rest.
Please – can you pinpoint EXACTLY which piece of T’T you ,and all after hatsot daveners, rely on to say birhat kr’sh and shm’e after hatsot ?
And ,if he doesn’t say it clearly , what logic you are following to reach your maskana ?And if you could tell me all that , without any denigration , that would be even more appreciated . Thanks.
sechel as a matter of policy does not give exact marei mekomot for his arguments .
Is it because he is afraid we will look it up and expose him ?
.@arso
Weekday there is nedava
Shabat not.Shabbat there is no tfillat nedava.
Shm’E Shaharit in the afternoon on Shabat is a levatala
LEHOL HADEI’OT
.
@Arso
I understand you. The point I am making is for all the non habad people .
We, the non habad , do not realise how far removed their theology is from mainstream Orthodoxy, Notwithstanding all their positive personal qualities , and they are many.I am afraid .
Afraid of a Schism opening up , potentially dividing klal yisrael . Slowly slowly .
As more and more young habad people are born , who never met their flesh and blood rebbi.
A human person, however dedicated to his cause , still with human failings and strengths , just like all the rest of us.
Young kids, Innocent and indoctrinated with all those types of garbage ,utterly convinced of this garbage being the foundations of yahadut.
Who in turn are going to be the educators of their next generation .This story is not finished yet. It is still evolving.
We – the non habad people – have to be cognizant of what’s really going on , right in front of our noses.
That’s the challenge here , in my humble opinion at least.
.@sechel
Typical habad misinformation. Again.
You drop a few mar’ei mekomot and that suffices .
THERE IS NO HETER TO SAY SHAHARIT SHM”E on shabbat afternoon . No heter whatsoever. They are all clear and unambiguous brahot levatalah .No Piskei Tshuvot . And no r chaim brisker .
The comparison to tsemah tsedeq re women’s braha is simply ludicrous.
Sechel doesnt even want to quote the rambam where supposedly its mutar . Today’s Rambam ….
.The yesod of having a logical and productive vikuach is one extremely important nekuda – Without that there is no vikuach possible.
Both sides have to agree on some ‘Muskamot’. They have to have a common starting point where they jointly agree on and the argument can start from that point onwards whereby both sides bring and dispute proofs , BROUGHT FROM THEIR COMMOM AREA OF AGREEMENT .
Why am I mentioning this now ?
Happened to meet an old habad acquaintance on the street , and will quote him here :In habad now , whenever our rebbi quotes a tanna or amora or a rishon or a posek , it is not as if our rebbi needs the backup of these holy people. It is more like those holy people received back up from our rebbi that they were zoche that he quoted them ….
It is very important that this remark sinks in , in my opinion.
We should reflect very carefully on this.This encapsulates , in very few words , where The Schism [as I call it] is happening.
It used to be that any mahloket in klal yisrael was bridgeable . You could always go back to some earlier jointly respected authority and based on it, argue it out, the classic way .
Proofs , counterproofs and rejoinders.Only because and as long as this authority is jointly revered in a similar way. Coupled with the hakarah that both sides DERIVE THEIR LEGITIMACY from that jointly recognized authority.
After reflection about the above quote, sadly , that joint hakarah that ALL LEGITIMACY IS DERIVED FROM our joint holy rebbeim [From Moshe Rabenu , torah shebiktav and torah shebaal peh coupled with our mesorah] thru the ages, is not here anymore.
If the habad rebbi does not need and does not derive his legitimacy from all those previous sources , and it is the opposite , he does those sources a ‘favor’ by quoting them , then how is ever possible to debate habads position in light of those sources ?
In every argument with habad, I sense this point as lurking in the background even when it is unspoken.
I think this a common denominator in many habad people.Please correct me if I am mistaken.
.Raabbi Lorincz keeps his hazaka of kasruth .
Notwithstanding katans unfounded allegations.@sechel
What is the mekor for hbad people to daven shm’essrei shaharit on shabbat afternoon . Why are they not brahot levatala ?My experience with hakatan taught me that any fact or shita quoted by him is suspect.
It has to be checked in its original source with critical thinking applied.Reb yeruchem from the mir wrote a letter in support. [of neohabads leaders tfillin campaign]
According to sechel.
======================
Lol.
Maybe sechel has a special postal service connecting him with Yeshiva Shel Ma’ala …….
.CS is [mis]quoting tanya 32 .
It says clearly in tanya 32 that apikorsim there is a mitsva to have tahlit sin’a against them .CS seems to argue against the tanya …”
[yb]
—
Yes he also defines an apikores The way I wrote- someone who was at your level in Torah and mitzvos, you already tried to bring them back by fulfilling the Mitzvah hocheach tochiach (according to the dinim – gently and privately at first, unless making a public chillul Hashem etc) and he refuses to return.
[CS]
===================================
I looked up the tanya [ch 32] this morning .
CS is misquoting tanya for the second time.
You cannot learn gmara or tanya or whatever if you are not exact.All those prerequisites CS mentioned are not in connection to an apikorus. Tanya clearly mentions them in regard to a non apikorus.
CS is the one who wants us to believe that they pertain to the apikorus.Not so ,according to tanya.
Mind you that ‘s from someone whose brothers are ‘besting’ the non habad people with their arguments ….
She learnt wrong pshat in her own mentors words – only to be found out by a ‘hater’ ….A clear sign that the only objective the average habad person has in learning tanya- is to find USAGE of tanyas words to support their preconceived notions of what habad stands for.
As opposed to a no holds barred limud of tanya, without negi’ut, ,only to search for and find the true meaning of the authors kavana in the tanya’s words.My experience with hakatan taught me that any fact or shita quoted by him is suspect.
It has to be checked in its original source with critical thinking applied.
One cannot take it on face value.@arso
Same gimatria as Tsarfat
and as Ufaratsta
Besides functioning as bet rabenu shebebavel
—
All part of the torat maham shilo – torah hadashah me iti tetse
—–@lernt
Thanks@CS
4] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE PUBLICLY STATE DURING MANY DECADES THAT THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO CROWN THEIR OWN LEADER AS MASHIACH – ONLY TO WHEN CONVENIENT CHANGE COURSE AND PUBLICLY DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE ?”There are still those who are living in the first half of the question… those who said it meant it at the time, and some still do.
———————————–
The question was ON HABAD AS A MOVEMENT , not on specific individuals . The official spokesmen , including the Leader of the movement.THEY conveyed the message that anyone who claims that habad is trying to crown their own leader is wrong , motsi shem ra and a ‘hater’ .
And its those very same people who conveniently ‘forgot’ all about that , and subsequently joined and/or initiated the mass mashiach meshigaas .
That was the question . Ignoring or sidestepping it , is disingenuous and not a sign of honesty.
@CS
5] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE PUBLICLY STATE DURING MANY YEARS THAT THAT THEIR LEADER CAN NOT DIE AND THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE IKAREI EMUNA AND IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME IN THE FUTURE – ONLY TO WHEN CONVENIENT CHANGE COURSE AND PUBLICLY PROCLAIM THE EXACT OPPOSITE ?”Haven’t seen this anywhere- especially the way you worded it
========================
Thanks for that.
Suppose you have not seen or heard about it – because it never happened before in any other community in Jewish History.The wording is an exact reflection of the facts on the ground. As witnessed by me.
And anyone else who bothered at the time to follow all the details as they were unfolding.
..
@CS
DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE IN AN ORGANIZED FASHION LOOK FOR CANDIDATES FOR MASHIACH AND SUBSEQUENTLY DECIDE ON THE WINNER ,BASED ON POPULAR ACCLAIM ?”No idea. Was Yinon shmo by his students, a way of promoting? And the other yeshivos as well? Or they all happened to promote the name of their Rebbi by coincidence? I don’t think it’s about a popularity contest btw. Rather, Moshiach belongs to all yidden so once his identity is revealed, we want to share how to bring about the full Geula by following his world view, with our fellow Jews. Many times the Moshiach campaign just means to educate people on what the era is about, and how to prepare, without focusing on a candidate.
———————–
1] WITHOUT FOCUSING ON A CANDIDATE…. [CS]
Quite innocent.The lack of focus on a candidate [in those instances] . Is that because of the name of the candidate is irrelevant ? Or , rather is that merely a preparation as a more smooth way of inserting the name of THE candidate in a later stage ??
Which one of those two options is closer to the truth ??
2] It is clear that this gemara which is discussing the names of mashiach is doing so in a theoretical manner .
IF min hahaim . IF min hameitim etc.Not in a PRACTICAL way as R’A and bar kochba.
Or in Shabatai Tsvi [shr’y]
Or in neo habad end 20th Century.There is NO MENTION of ‘promotion’ of any kind whatsoever. Just a note of a discussion in the Bet HaMedrash.
Outside of the Bet HaMedrash there was no knowledge of this at all.
.2] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE USE THE MEANS OF MASS ADVERTISING AVAILAIBLE TO THEM IN THEIR CONTEXT TO PROMOTE AN INDIVIDUAL AS MASHIACH ?”
Possibly. Rabbi Akiva promoted bar kochba. Shabtai tzvi was endorsed by many Rabbanim. How exactly they did so I don’t know since we don’t have media from then.
——————————
CS agrees -again- that there is no proof whatsoever .It is ‘possible’. That is the furthest she can go.
R’Akiva said – I thought Bar Kochba was Mashiach . He PROMOTED bar kochba ???
If CS is honest , she will agree that there is NO source whatsoever of anyone PROMOTING bar kochba.It seems more like Bar Kochba’s ACHIEVEMENTS ‘promoted’ b’k . Without any outside ‘promotion’ necessary. Ma’aseha Yekarvuha ….
Which, incidentally happened to the reason for R’A ‘s assumption ….It seems that ,in an inverse sense , all the way through the ages, people realized that the more ‘outside promotion’ is needed , the more that shows that the helek hama’asim is lacking.
Thats why ‘promotion’ is historically totally absent and lacking in Jewish Life.
Which leaves us as the only other precedent, the other False , Failed and despised ‘messiah’.
It’s quite simple , Shabtai tsvi , Shem Resha’im Yirkav, had a devoted army of sincere , blindly devoted followers who fell prey to the charisma of their leader , who ‘promoted’ their leaders supernatural feats , far and wide, as proof of his messiahship.
Woe to the cause which draws its legitimacy and ways of operation from that exposed fraudster and his mass movement of lies and deceit …..
.@CS
Thanks for engaging point by point .With all the sympathy for all other worthy activities you are engaged in , here you answers bring out the bankruptcy of neo habad theology.
It is by now clear to any neutral bystander who is not steeped in the movement and thereby unblinkered by negi’ut, , that there are some major issues with habad theology and its acrobatics .
Acrobatics performed to alternately fit a specific predetermined goal ,still fit with reality to a certain degree, and above all be marketable enough to convince unsuspecting and naive yehudim to blindly follow their messiah.
.@CS
“ 1] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE HOLD ATSAROT FOR KABALAT PNEI MASHIACH ?”Possibly not- the avoda throughout golus was focused on Avodas habirurim. Now this is our focus, as we’ve finished Avodas habirurim- hence the difference.
——————
CS agrees here there is no proof it was ever done. CS claims the avoda has changed.This is one of the beginnings of The Schism.
The Schism between the main body of Klal Yisrael and a small minority of blind followers of the leader of habad hasidim. Who claimed , without any back up source, and for specific and obvious purposes, that the avoda changed.
..
Yankel, the zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own
====================
It has been pointed out , repeatedly , that this argument is a non starter in hilchot pikuah nefesh.
We dont , cannot and are not allowed to limit our p/n responses by the criteria of “who started it”.
In all contexts.There has been no response whatsoever to this point.
Does that mean that no response exists ?Could we therefore conclude this argument as settled ?
Please – as a last appeal – anyone has an answer ?If not ,we should consider this point as ‘finally settled’ , Shtika kehoda’a. Not like the satmar shita [who attempt to use this argument].
@arso
I personally know many Orthodox Rabanim who would accept your sefer . After reading your comments on this thread.Sechel is suffering from cognitive dissonance
According to sechel –
“Done! נשתכחה תורת המתנגדים.”“No godol now is against habad” …. according to sechel.
In sechels illusory world no godol is against habad , habad leader is alive now [give him hagba …], habad never claimed that their leader cannot die, and the moon is a banana ….
.
Rabbi Chay Amar, shliach to Golden Beach, Florida, met with ten leading Litvish and Sephardic rabbonim across Eretz Yisroel, presenting with them the set of the Rebbe’s commentaries on Rambam. …., Rabbi Yitzchak Shaul Kanievsky son of Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rabbi Mordechai Shmuel Edelstein, a nephew of the late Rav Gershon Edelstein,,
============Sechel is busy with classic habad mis/dis information.
I happen to personally know that both R Ch Kanievski and R G Edelstein zihronam livraha ,had a very negative view of neo habad.
Whether the report of R YS Kanievski or R MS Edelstein accepting the habad leaders’ commentaries on Rambam are accurate or an outright fabrication , I do not know.
Even if did happen [which I doubt], It is NO INDICATION of their illustrious relatives’ , or their own for that matter, praise or acceptance of neo habads aberrations of the last 60 – 70 years .
.@coffee
LaBri’ut . Ask it. Never stopped anyone from asking.@coffee
Thats not the issue with habad.@avirah
aaq is right in his argument here.
The yazidi’s did not fare too well in the last few years. Who said yehudim would have fared any better , if they would have been no state ?@avirah
Re hazon Ish’s kabala learning- there is a ‘study’ by one of the mizrahi academics in bar ilan university about hazon ish where he argues that h’i did not learn kabala. I saw this study in the possession of a habad friend of mine . Thats probably where sehel gets his info from.
Btw- R SS Deutchs biography of the rebbi of the habad hasidim was forbidden and burnt in habad, but an equivalent [or even worse] biography about the hazon ish is kasher and even mumlats.
Maybe this can be sourced in some specific farbrengen on Purim 1956 ….
.I would take the ‘sting’ out of this whole debate with the following :
We do not live in a one dimensional world .
Yesh bezeh ma she’ein bazeh. And le’hepach.Sometimes we do need to decide on a one-dimensional course of action.
For example who is first in pidyon shvuyim or birkat hamazon.
But in real “superiority” we will never know.Rashi Psahim 25B [quoting sanhedrin?] ma hazi dami didach sumek tfei – who can know, who HKBH favors more ?
Even if the other guy is a t’ch . Even if he is gadol hador. Even if he is a Tsadik.
That is the source that retsiha is yehareg veal yaavor.This is a logical reasoning strong enough to deduct a dinei nefashot psak halaha lema’aseh. [!]
Cf Rambam Hilch Tshuva . Sometimes one avera is shakul neged kama mitsvot. Sometimes the opposite.
No human can make these heshbonot , only Kel Hogeh Dei’ot [gist of Rambams words]
.@Reb Eliezer
Thats true . But the ma’ala of bet hillel is that they were Shonin divrei bet shammai before their own.
Shonin = learning.@CS
CS: My point was that Rashi isn’t necessarily sticking his point to just the Sanhedrin.
—
So there is NO PROOF for anything more than sanhedrin .
You agree and we agree .
You cannot use this as proof .The Beis Hilel quoted the view of the Beis Shamai first because of their humility before their decision.